True charity
And what exactly is true charity? Why do you expect it to be more effective at solving a problem now than it has for the past 10,000 years?
people actually working together gets more results than any attempt to cover over an issue with money.
What on earth do you think a government is if not people working together?
Real human interaction does more good than institutions ever will, especially once the bureaucrats start to game and take from it
Saying we shouldn't do it because of beuracracy is like saying you shouldn't try a vehicle because of friction. Yes its there, yes its wasteful, yes we should try to minimize it, but like other forms of entropy it simply is.
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I always find it funny, and incredibly ironic, when people rage that taxes are theft and government can't do anything right... on the internet.
I always find it funny, and incredibly ironic, when people rage that taxes are theft and government can't do anything right... on the internet.
Given 90% of what the internet is used for, I think that only proves their point :P
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I give homeless people money for drugs and beer.
It's what I'd want someone to do for me.
I serve food/wash dishes at a neighborhood soup kitchen. Mind you, if I didn't have a small disability check from the VA, I'd probably be on the other side of the counter.But if you didnt have a home, would a solar powered shipping container house on an acre of land make your life better?
Depends on where the shipping container IS. Chances are if the container is going to be affordable its not going to be near toilets, showers, or sources of food or begging/busking/ recycling or social services.
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Ah, memories...
I was living in East Boston with two guys I knew from UMass Boston, Nazi Doodlebug* and Omar the Former Arab Terrorist. Nazi Doodlebug told me about how his friend, Lord Blackmoore, had been reduced to homelessness and needed somewhere to stay. I had already been burned by Lord Blackmoore, but I have a weakness for strays. He moved in. Lots of drama, but, eventually, Nazi Doodlebug moved out to go to law school and Omar the Former Arab Terrorist got a job in Connecticut, trying to organize Foxwoods (I don't think it worked) and I was left with Lord Blackmoore.
Lord Blackmoore had been forced to turn on the charm when he first moved in, and he was quite charming when he wanted to be, like most sociopaths. But eventually, his socipathy got the better of him, he became an a$+&~*% again, came into some money, decided to embark on an exciting journey into the world of oxycontin addiction. It was around that time that I decided to move on myself.
Anyway, as I said, Lord Blackmoore had come into some money. His father, sadly, had passed away, and he inherited quite a bit, so I felt no guilt whatsoever about giving him 30-days notice and bailing. I moved elsewhere in the neighborhood and began living with my now hetero life partner. I kept getting phone calls from the previous landlord and I kept explaining to him that "I'm sorry that you haven't gotten your rent yet, but as I explained to you in the letter of XX/XX/XXXX and in innumerable phone calls since then, I no longer live there. Bye!"
Point being, I knew Lord Blackmoore was on the verge of being evicted. I still had a key, and my hetero life partner kept yelling at me about certain pieces of property that I had left in the old apartment and that if Lord Blackmoore was getting kicked out, we should go grab them. So, eventually, we did.
When we let ourselves into the old apartment, we were amazed. The place had been destroyed. All the doors were ripped out of the jambs, somebody had set the bathroom on fire, etc., etc. We marvelled at the destruction, grabbed some things, and split.
A month or so later, I ran into Lord Blackmoore on the mean streets of Eastie. "I dropped by the old place, man, wtf?!? Were you whacked out of your mind or did you do that to spite the landlord?" He smiled, and then frowned. "I'm hurt that you would think me so unimaginative," he said and then went on to explain that when he had gotten the eviction notice, he had taken what he wanted, moved out, and then went down to where the local homeless people hung out. He, of course, knew them pretty well from all kinds of nefarious activities, and informed them if that were looking for a place to stay, 477 Sumner Street #1 was open for business and gave them the keys.
So...that's the story of Lord Blackmoore, who didn't wait for the government to help out the homeless. Go forth, Paizonians, and be like Lord Blackmoore.
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*
We went to a party in Harvard Square once, where we were both introduced to some hawttie Radcliffe girl.
"This is Commie Doodlebug..." "Hello" "Hi!" [Waggles eyebrows]
"And this is Nazi Doodlebug." "Nazi Doodlebug?!?"
"I'm not a Nazi." "Why do they call you Nazi Doodlebug?"
"I'm not a Nazi, I'm a Republican." "Republican?!?"
[Nazi Doodlebug points to me, exasperatedly] "He's a f$##ing communist! How come you aren't giving him a hard time?"
(I waggle my eyebrows some more)
"I've met some nice communists before," she answers without missing a beat, "I've never met a nice Republican!"
Hee hee! Joke's on me, though, 'cuz he made out with her later that night, whereas I just got a knife pulled on me by a Harvard undergrad, which was pretty funny, actually.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
Utah is Ending Homelessness by Giving People Homes.
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I serve food/wash dishes at a neighborhood soup kitchen. Mind you, if I didn't have a small disability check from the VA, I'd probably be on the other side of the counter.But if you didnt have a home, would a solar powered shipping container house on an acre of land make your life better?Depends on where the shipping container IS. Chances are if the container is going to be affordable its not going to be near toilets, showers, or sources of food or begging/busking/ recycling or social services.
Ah, the confusion... When I say shipping container house I mean fourty foot containers with shower, toilet, kitchen, one bedroom.
I always find it funny, and incredibly ironic, when people rage that taxes are theft and government can't do anything right... on the internet.Given 90% of what the internet is used for, I think that only proves their point :P
The point was that the internet grew out of what was a government project, ARPANET.
(to put it in simple terms)|
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
Utah is Ending Homelessness by Giving People Homes.
'In 2005, Utah figured out that the annual cost of E.R. visits and jail stays for homeless people was about $16,670 per person, compared to $11,000 to provide each homeless person with an apartment and a social worker. So, the state began giving away apartments, with no strings attached.'
Genius.
I always find it funny, and incredibly ironic, when people rage that taxes are theft and government can't do anything right... on the internet.Given 90% of what the internet is used for, I think that only proves their point :PThe point was that the internet grew out of what was a government project, ARPANET.
(to put it in simple terms)
It was for science and military usage and extending human knowledge.
Now it's for complaining, videos, the same social immaturity that should die after high school but now never does, playing games, and porn.
I think the complainers are justified in saying the government can't do anything right :P
I give to charity as well.And you don't give enough. The fact is it wouldn't matter if you gave 100% of it. You don't make enough. By the math of your own political party, you're a moocher.
I just do not think the answer to all problems is to have the government steal from others to do what i want it to.All taxation is not theft. That is a ludicrous, disingenuous position that undercuts any legitimate arguments you might have. Feigning moral outrage that government needs money to do stuff and GASP! isn't perfect is not a legitimate discussion point.
It is about time we start convincing the people what is rightSeriously, you're saying we don't need taxation because you are somehow going to do something Jesus and Buddha together couldn't accomplish. Its not a viable alternative to taxation, don't pretend it is one.My complete lack of a party makes that a fools judgement. The fact that i strive to never take from anyone makes me the opposite of a moocher
Taxes are taking what a man earns, it should be done as little as possible.
True charity and people actually working together gets more results than any attempt to cover over an issue with money. Real human interaction does more good than institutions ever will, especially once the bureaucrats start to game and take from it
What about wealth "a man" doesn't earn? What about wealth "a man" has unfair advantages competing for?
I always find it funny, and incredibly ironic, when people rage that taxes are theft and government can't do anything right... on the internet.Given 90% of what the internet is used for, I think that only proves their point :PThe point was that the internet grew out of what was a government project, ARPANET.
(to put it in simple terms)It was for science and military usage and extending human knowledge.
Now it's for complaining, playing games, and porn. Note the link is somewhat NFSW, but not that much.
I think the complainers are justified in saying the government can't do anything right :P
Or you could turn it around and point out that private enterprise clearly ruins a good and usable thing (since almost none of the things you mention comes from the government). ;-)
Or you could turn it around and point out that private enterprise clearly ruins a good and usable thing (since almost none of the things you mention comes from the government). ;-)
Well, yes, but then it's still the government's fault for turning it over to private enterprise ;)
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It won't. They'd have to maintain it somehow, thats almost as costly as building it.that was the population of Darwin twenty years ago
So, care to give homeless that solar powered shipping container house with moisture vaporator on an acre of land for a hundred thousand dollars or are you okay with the betrayal of your childhood dreams?
Six billion dollars and ten square miles will fix this.
Not to mention infrastructure.
Roads, water, sewer, public services for the new community you just created. Add to that, the population you are concentrating into this new community is going to have a much higher rate of mental illness, drug use and criminal activity than most populations, all needs requiring significant ongoing funding.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:
Utah is Ending Homelessness by Giving People Homes.
I'd never heard of that.
Google searched, didn't find much that I recognized, a bunch of liberal websites I'd never heard of, a slate.com article, and...an article in The American Conservative in which I learned that Utah has 3,000 cases of homelessness. Which would make it, what, one-twentieth the size of NYC's homeless population? That kinda boggles the mind.
But, yes, I totally support giving away free apartments.
An area with shipping containers (seriously, don't you have any other building materials???) with formerly homeless people only, that would be a chilling place to live.
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An area with shipping containers (seriously, don't you have any other building materials???) with formerly homeless people only, that would be a chilling place to live.
They are actually very easy to insulate and heat, a common off grid building material. The problem becomes who foots the bills for eternity.
An area with shipping containers (seriously, don't you have any other building materials???) with formerly homeless people only, that would be a chilling place to live.They are actually very easy to insulate and heat, a common off grid building material. The problem becomes who foots the bills for eternity.
We could have a genuinely progressive or even flat tax structure so that the answer to that question is "people that could afford it" but its too easy to scare people with cries of "communism!"
We could have a genuinely progressive or even flat tax structure so that the answer to that question is "people that could afford it" but its too easy to scare people with cries of "communism!"An area with shipping containers (seriously, don't you have any other building materials???) with formerly homeless people only, that would be a chilling place to live.They are actually very easy to insulate and heat, a common off grid building material. The problem becomes who foots the bills for eternity.
Which is the same exact thing that prevented national health care until the point the system became impossible to implement without causing an economic disaster.
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We could have a genuinely progressive or even flat tax structure so that the answer to that question is "people that could afford it" but its too easy to scare people with cries of "communism!"An area with shipping containers (seriously, don't you have any other building materials???) with formerly homeless people only, that would be a chilling place to live.They are actually very easy to insulate and heat, a common off grid building material. The problem becomes who foots the bills for eternity.
So the answer as always is take from others. I support programs, especially non-profit ones, to help people help themselves. To expect others to pay forever is wrong.
"Communism!"
It's always easier to cry that and deflect attention from what "you"* really mean, which sounds more like, "I don't want to pay my due into the society from which I reap the benefits of, so go die in a ditch if you can't make it on your own."
Because, as we all know, every man truly is an island.
*general Libertarian/anarcho-capitalist you
]So the answer as always is take from others.
Well obviously you can't take from the homeless so yes. Someone else is going to have to pay for it. As oklahoma was discovering, it saves them money in the long run.
I support programs, especially non-profit ones, to help people help themselves.
Voluntary giving is not sufficient.
Voluntary giving has never been sufficient.
Voluntary giving will never BE sufficient.
Your support of an unworkable alternative is meaningless. Im all for healthcare for the poor, but not those expensive doctors. Shake a rattle over them and try an algae cleanse instead.
To expect others to pay forever is wrong.
I expect people to pay a fair amount in taxes. Its been part of human reality for the last 10,000 years, get used to it. You are so ticked off at some people that you're willing to hurt innocent people just to make sure that their life doesn't become better than yours.
That's the plan, and you're falling for it.
The problem is I really just believe if we as individual reached out and helped the people around us...we could do a lot better job than any government program could possibly do.This is worse than unfounded. There is no way individuals can match the scope and reach of section 8 housing, welfare, CHIP, school lunch programs, and social security.
8 million people in NYC, 60-120,000 homeless. If each of those 8 million contributed $10 a week, that is around $35,000 each for the homeless.
If half the non-homeless helped, the government wouldn't be needed.
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]So the answer as always is take from others.Well obviously you can't take from the homeless so yes. Someone else is going to have to pay for it. As oklahoma was discovering, it saves them money in the long run.
I support programs, especially non-profit ones, to help people help themselves.Voluntary giving is not sufficient.
Voluntary giving has never been sufficient.
Voluntary giving will never BE sufficient.
Your support of an unworkable alternative is meaningless. Im all for healthcare for the poor, but not those expensive doctors. Shake a rattle over them and try an algae cleanse instead.
To expect others to pay forever is wrong.I expect people to pay a fair amount in taxes. Its been part of human reality for the last 10,000 years, get used to it. You are so ticked off at some people that you're willing to hurt innocent people just to make sure that their life doesn't become better than yours.
That's the plan, and you're falling for it.
People like you always say that "fair share" But what IS fair? At what point is it wrong to take from others? Do you think thieves deserve punishment or do they indeed have some right to take from those you deem to have too much? It is WRONG to steal, most children even get that
So the answer as always is take from others. I support programs, especially non-profit ones, to help people help themselves. To expect others to pay forever is wrong.
In the 60's and into the 70's, hunger was an issue in this country. It got so bad that people demanded action from politicians. The government went to work and nearly eradicated chronic hunger from this country. In the 80's, those programs were reduced or eliminated, shifting reliance to the "thousand points of light" of private charities. It didn't take long until they were overwhelmed and unable to meet demand. Every economic downturn and the problem only gets worse.
Right now, you are opposed to the the only thing that has ever worked.
Right now, you are advocating something that has proven to not work.
It's as simple as that. You are voicing your support for something that has failed. It has failed, it is failing, and by all predictions, will continue to fail.
Your solution for the sinking boat is to drill more holes in the hull, hoping the water will drain out.
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People like you always say that "fair share" But what IS fair?
A lot less than you're probably paying now between income tax, social security/medicaid tax, Obamacare which is an effective tax paid to a corporation, sales tax, property tax (either directly or supplementing it via rent)
I think a progressive tax is the least unfair option. Its government. There's no such thing as fair. That taxation is unfair is not a legitimate argument. It is even less fair to deny help to people that desperately need it because you're worried about the minority of people living the high life with a free apartment and Cheetos.
It is WRONG to steal, most children even get that
Taxation is not theft.. This is a canard. No matter how often you repeat it, either to me or to yourself, it will never be true. If you think your argument is remotely legitimate, look how often you need to skitter sideways onto something else and then come back with the same memorized lines.
BNW: How much would you be willing to pay in taxes, in percent of your income, assuming you do not get any more of it back through handouts than you do today, as an absolute top limit for your generosity? At what point would you say that enough is enough?
8 million people in NYC, 60-120,000 homeless. If each of those 8 million contributed $10 a week, that is around $35,000 each for the homeless.
If half the non-homeless helped, the government wouldn't be needed.
And yet those 8 million people don't do this. They have never done this. They never will do this. If only there was some strange, bizarre way that someone could make them do that , and even better, if they could take maybe 2 dollars from the working stiffs and a hundred dollars from the wallstreet fatcats.
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People like you always say that "fair share" But what IS fair?A lot less than you're probably paying now between income tax, social security/medicaid tax, Obamacare which is an effective tax paid to a corporation, sales tax, property tax (either directly or supplementing it via rent)
I think a progressive tax is the least unfair option. Its government. There's no such thing as fair. That taxation is unfair is not a legitimate argument. It is even less fair to deny help to people that desperately need it because you're worried about the minority of people living the high life with a free apartment and Cheetos.
It is WRONG to steal, most children even get thatTaxation is not theft.. This is a canard. No matter how often you repeat it, either to me or to yourself, it will never be true. If you think your argument is remotely legitimate, look how often you need to skitter sideways onto something else and then come back with the same memorized lines.
So if a starving man takes from you it is theft, if the gov takes from you (and a whole lot more from others) it is just fine (mostly because it largely is taken from others)
BNW: How much would you be willing to pay in taxes, in percent of your income
Depends on what my income is. The more i make the more i can afford to lose. At anything i could optimistically hope to make anything more than 30% is starting to grate.
assuming you do not get any more of it back through handouts than you do today?
Its not a hand out. They broke it, they bought it. You're not sending boxer to the glue factory.
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8 million people in NYC, 60-120,000 homeless. If each of those 8 million contributed $10 a week, that is around $35,000 each for the homeless.
If half the non-homeless helped, the government wouldn't be needed.
And yet those 8 million people don't do this. They have never done this. They never will do this. If only there was some strange, bizarre way that someone could make them do that , and even better, if they could take maybe 2 dollars from the working stiffs and a hundred dollars from the wallstreet fatcats.
Like the threat of violence....
man your jealousy and hatred of anyone successful is a mix of sad and funny
BNW: How much would you be willing to pay in taxes, in percent of your incomeDepends on what my income is. The more i make the more i can afford to lose. At anything i could optimistically hope to make anything more than 30% is starting to grate.
assuming you do not get any more of it back through handouts than you do today?Its not a hand out. They broke it, they bought it. You're not sending boxer to the glue factory.
I live in Sweden. When you add various social fees, special taxes, and so on and so forth, we pay between 50-70% of our income in taxes. Only Denmark has a higher tax rate, and that varies by year.
We still have crime. We still have homeless. We still have poverty. We still have unemployment.
What the average Swede doesn't have is any sort of wealth. A broken water pipe means borrowing money. The bank has the house as security, and if the interest on the loans rises beyond your ability to pay, they take your house and count down the loans by the amount the house made in an executive auction, leaving you with the rest of the loans and no house.
So if a starving man takes from you it is theft
Its not morally wrong. He's starving, I'm not.
if the gov takes from you (and a whole lot more from others) it is just fine (mostly because it largely is taken from others)
Well the government usually doesn't swipe my sandwhich just before lunch time or take the last 10 bucks out of my wallet when I'm not expecting it. I would mind it less if my pay stub said "2% deducted for Hungry Joe" than "federal withholdings" or "social security pyramid scheme"
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BNW: How much would you be willing to pay in taxes, in percent of your income, assuming you do not get any more of it back through handouts than you do today, as an absolute top limit for your generosity? At what point would you say that enough is enough?
But that is the game, most that play his lines pay little to nothing, they want others to pay. Often for themselves
So if a starving man takes from you it is theftIts not morally wrong. He's starving, I'm not.
if the gov takes from you (and a whole lot more from others) it is just fine (mostly because it largely is taken from others)Well the government usually doesn't swipe my sandwhich just before lunch time or take the last 10 bucks out of my wallet when I'm not expecting it. I would mind it less if my pay stub said "2% deducted for Hungry Joe" than "federal withholdings" or "social security pyramid scheme"
How would you feel about somewhat famous government-funded projects like how gender relates to various musical instruments?
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We still have crime. We still have homeless. We still have poverty.
Dichotomous thinking is disingenuous thinking.
Your murder rate is 0.7
The US's murder rate is 4.8
We have almost SEVEN times the homicide rate.
Thank you for showing what the government programs can actually do.
So how much does a poor person need to steal before you think they deserve punishment?
After they've got food shelter and any pressing medical needs covered.
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We still have crime. We still have homeless. We still have poverty.
Dichotomous thinking is disingenuous thinking.
Your murder rate is 0.7
The US's murder rate is 4.8
We have almost SEVEN times the homicide rate.
Thank you for showing what the government programs can actually do.
And nothing but high taxes and socialism could possibly be the cause.......
We still have crime. We still have homeless. We still have poverty.
Dichotomous thinking is disingenuous thinking.
Your murder rate is 0.7
The US's murder rate is 4.8
We have almost SEVEN times the homicide rate.
Thank you for showing what the government programs can actually do.
You guys let people run around with firearms. What did you expect? Swedes have more firearms per capita, but those are almost exclusively hunting rifles.
No, my point is that we pay twice what you would be uncomfortable with. There is a serious cost for that... But the stuff you want everyone to pay more to solve... Are still here. Our schools are actually not that good. Thing is... Many people believe throwing government money at something is the way to solve everything. If it were, Sweden wouldn't have any of those problems.
BNW: How much would you be willing to pay in taxes, in percent of your income, assuming you do not get any more of it back through handouts than you do today, as an absolute top limit for your generosity? At what point would you say that enough is enough?But that is the game, most that play his lines pay little to nothing, they want others to pay. Often for themselves
I'm sorry if the method that I chose to serve my country didn't involve enough explosives for you, but trust me when I tell you the malaria and chronic stomach problems that persist a decade and a half later were real enough.
I'm sorry if my attempts to solve my health issues by getting a job moving 300 pound logs and blacktopping 8 hours strait with no lunch, caused some life altering injuries that might personally cost you an entire penny, but on the upside they cut the workforce in half and then the shoddy equipment cut a worker in half. The government got smaller and you keep more of your shiny penny.
And that's whats truly important isn't it?
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We still have crime. We still have homeless. We still have poverty.
Dichotomous thinking is disingenuous thinking.
Your murder rate is 0.7
The US's murder rate is 4.8
We have almost SEVEN times the homicide rate.
Thank you for showing what the government programs can actually do.
You guys let people run around with firearms. What did you expect? Swedes have more firearms per capita, but those are almost exclusively hunting rifles.
No, my point is that we pay twice what you would be uncomfortable with. There is a serious cost for that... But the stuff you want everyone to pay more to solve... Are still here. Our schools are actually not that good. Thing is... Many people believe throwing government money at something is the way to solve everything. If it were, Sweden wouldn't have any of those problems.
More than guns i think it is the individualism. These great low crime rate nations tend to be small and homogeneous. Almost all the same ethnic group, religion, a shared culture. similar economic standing. We very widely, and clash often
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BNW: How much would you be willing to pay in taxes, in percent of your income, assuming you do not get any more of it back through handouts than you do today, as an absolute top limit for your generosity? At what point would you say that enough is enough?But that is the game, most that play his lines pay little to nothing, they want others to pay. Often for themselves
I'm sorry if the method that I chose to serve my country didn't involve enough explosives for you, but trust me when I tell you the malaria and chronic stomach problems that persist a decade and a half later were real enough.
I'm sorry if my attempts to solve my health issues by getting a job moving 300 pound logs and blacktopping 8 hours strait with no lunch, caused some life altering injuries that might personally cost you an entire penny, but on the upside they cut the workforce in half and then the shoddy equipment cut a worker in half. The government got smaller and you keep more of your shiny penny.
And that's whats truly important isn't it?
You had it hard so you feel owed to some of what others have. no surprise there. And i don't care who you steal it from. I suffer constant pain to earn my modest means and take nothing from anyone. Suck it up, others have it worse and NO ONE is entitled to take from others.
Problem with playing the victim game is that there is always someone worse off. Here, our social democrats are always harping on about how we need to care for those that have it bad. Earlier, it used to mean people who worked manual labour jobs, mostly in the industry. More recently, the people they were talking about were the unemployed from the industry when most of that left the country due to high salaries here, people who usually managed to get other jobs. But not once has it meant the truly sad stories, the mentally ill, the severely handicapped or such groups. I sincerely doubt any of them has even thought about it.