
Mortavius |
Hello all,
I'm finishing up Carrion Crown, and my group has decided on Reign of Winter as our next AP. We're excitedly making characters, but as DM I have a concern.
I have a few people joining, and I'm going to have 7 PCs. This is an online game, so the PC's will be there even if their players can't always make it (they can be controlled by others).
How do I modify the encounters to accommodate for this many players? Preferably, I would like some kind of rule I can follow. Does anyone know where I can get info on this, or have any info they can share?

DrDeth |

Hmm, I have played in a 7 pc game, but only table-top.
To help control game play:
I'd suggest limiting the number of creatures. No one should be able to have more than 2 creatures they control in combat. So, no Master Summoners.
You could go further and say that each player gets only One. Thus no animal companions, cohorts, eidolons, etc.
Mounts and familiars are often not used separately in combat, so they should be OK.
Ideally you'd just add more monsters. The issue here is that then if all seven gang up on one PC they can easily kill him.
Start by doubling HP.

voideternal |
If you just want to run the AP, you can do one of two things:
A - Make your encounters harder to compensate for the number of players.
B - Make your players weaker to fit the AP.
Here are a few pros and cons of the two ways. If you think about it, you might come up with more pros / cons:
A - Pro: Your PCs will advance in level at the rate of the AP. If the AP says your PCs should be level 2 when they enter Castle Doom, they will be level 2 when they enter Castle Doom.
A - Pro: Your PCs are less likely to die versus a single-creature high-CR encounter.
B - Pro: You don't have to modify the AP. Less work! Wohoo!
And this is how you would do A or B:
A - Find the XP value of each encounter using this table. Multiply that value by 7 / 4 or 1.75. Add more creatures, or apply stuff like the advanced template to existing creatures so the total experience matches the number you computed earlier. Remember to give more loot too. Specifically, 1.75x as much loot.
B - Nothing! But when awarding experience, make sure to award less individual XP. As an example, a CR 1 encounter gives 400 XP total, which is 100 XP per person for a 4-man party, but you should award 57 XP per person for a 7-man party (400 / 7 ~= 57). Give out loot as normal as the AP says, but the party will have to split loot 7-way, just like how they split XP 7-way.

Ciaran Barnes |

So it was previously a GM and four players, and three more are joining? Good luck with that. I've been at big tables and I can attest that both you and your players will get less enjoyment from the game. And this has nothing to do with correct increase of combat challenge rating. On the upside, if you can stick it out, one or two or your players will get bored and leave.

Mauril |
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One thing I recommend, after having played a three year campaign with 7 PCs, is that you should treat the party as two groups for encounters. To get a CR that's right for a large party, you need more monsters and not more powerful monsters. I found that tossing in a fist full of APL -2 or -3 "minion" type creatures into each encounter let me keep the party busy, threatened and not overpowered.
In many cases, especially when the encounter is set up as a single baddie (which APs do pretty frequently), you are pretty safe just adding a second one of whatever is already there. The action economy advantage of 7v2 will likely still be more than enough. If you are worried, weaken them both slightly.

Mortavius |
Thanks for the suggestions folks.
In Carrion Crown I was running 6 PCs. So it's only 1 more, but I'm worried that will tip the scales dramatically.
I've run the carrion crown with no alterations, and the net result is that the PC's are a level or two below where the adventure says they should be.
With 7 PC's, I'm concerned this will go even further, and I know there's a point where you're just too low level, even if there are seven of you.
Is that a concern I should have?
I want to take the path of least resistance; if I don't HAVE to do a bunch of extra work, then I don't want to. I'm willing to, if I need to, but I want to know if there are other options.

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Voideternal's advice was very thorough and precise. I'm used to large parties as well, and I let them play 20 pt. buy. So... I max hitpoints and add 50% more mooks & minions to the fight. I try to avoid solo creature encounters and if impossible I give them extra actions and add things like terrain effects or timed events that change up the flow of battle.
Also the Advanced simple template is your friend.
--Vrock the Casbah!

Greystaff |

When I GM for large groups, I notice that the first tier of PCs get the majority of action and the PCs at the back of the marching order end up pulling rear security against a threat that never materializes. To involve everyone, I use the tips above of increasing numbers of minions, etc and I also ensure that monsters in adjoining rooms/caves/tunnels etc get an opportunity to hear the combat and approach from the rear of the PC's column, giving everyone a chance to get in on the action.

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Good suggestions so far.
I play in two different 7 person groups, with ongoing APs and campaigns. It's rare that I'm at a small table. It can be a ton of fun, but I've observed that there's a need for some specific strategies.
I think DrDeth is partially right about limiting how many creatures a player controls. But, I would add that this definitely depends on the skill level and preparation of the players.
In one campaign, we had 7 players, a druid that summoned stuff all the time, and two PCs had cohorts. That meant at least 10 PC controlled creatures got to act each combat round. Everyone knew what they were doing, planned their actions while others were taking their turns, and had stat blocks ready in advance.
In my groups, the most important gameplay rule is 'be ready for your turn.'
Each player gets a few brief moments (<5 seconds) to declare their actions, otherwise they automatically Delay. It works pretty well.
Obviously, if something changes dramatically on an initiative count prior to a player's turn, they can have more time to change their plan.
Voideternal's advice is very good. IMO, keeping track of xp for 7 players is a fool's errand.
Also, I think that as much book keeping as possible should be the players' responsibility. Things like HP, loot tracking, crafting, ammo, and buffs are all things players should monitor. The GM has enough to do.
Players in my groups are also at least partially responsible for monitoring the initiative flow. This becomes more important when there are tons of enemies and 7 PCs.

voideternal |
...With 7 PC's, I'm concerned this will go even further, and I know there's a point where you're just too low level, even if there are seven of you.
Is that a concern I should have?
I want to take the path of least resistance...
If you run the AP as is with no modifications but split XP and loot 7-way (i.e., the B-plan in my first post), then sometimes when the AP throws single-high-CR-monster encounters at your PCs, a PC might quickly die, in say, the surprise round.
A middle-ground solution would be to pick out those single-high-CR-monster encounters, and 'break them up' into a slightly lower CR monster (such as by applying the young template) + some minions. The idea is to change the encounter from a 1-monster encounter to a multi-monster encounter of the same CR, so nobody dies from one full attack. That way, you can leave a majority of the AP untouched, and modify only the encounters that you think will be 'single encounter surprise-round problems'.
Also note that AoE attacks like fireball or breath weapons against the PCs will be more effective and deadly for a 7-man party than a 4-man party. But I don't think this will be as much a problem, as I think the party will naturally learn to split up more. Just keep in mind that a fireball that does 35 damage against 7 players can do a potential total of 245 damage instead of 140 damage to a 4-man party.

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7 PCs is just about 2 groups... double the number of all the monsters in the AP. This will make it challenging for them (and you... oh, the numbers... ). Instead of having one big bad guy at the end, make it 2, working together... and if you want to make it really tough, make them up yourself TO COMPLIMENT the one that is already in the AP.
Alternately, you can play the monsters "smarter" - and have them continually going after "one person" until they kill that person, then move to the next. This, of course, is a really mean way to GM and will drive off the players you target (if you do it for no good reason). I would suggest such targeting be against "the leader" or the "first contact" of the benevolent PCs in the group. That way you have a story hook reason why "Timmy always gets attacked first." Yes. Have them GANG UP on Timmy UNTIL HE IS PULPED! Instead of the monsters all spread out and attacking on player each, Timmy gets 4-6 all attacking him... ouchies. So unfair. But then, who said life was fair. They got orders to kill the leader/healers/buffers/whichever you pick first!

CraziFuzzy |

Much easier to have 'non-normal' party sizes in a home-brew than in an AP. I'm in a 'group' that consists of up to 8 PCs, but most are not at the table every session. We are running a home-brew, based out of a city, with most expeditions and quests lasting just the session. So basically, the ones who are there go on that expedition. Otherwise, the other stay in town and do whatever downtime activity they choose. In these cases, since it's home-brew, it's easy for the GM to alter the encounters to be appropriate difficulty - for the AP, you'd have to decide if you want it to be still ultra challenging or not. If you keep the encounters as normal, they will be easy, and likely be resolved quicker, which in some ways, may offset the slowdown caused by the large group. I would not say 7 is a double sized group though. Yes, there are more party members, so a TPK is much less likely, but a critical can still do the same amount of damage to a single character, so individual risk is still there (perhaps a few more buffs available). If you look at the APL rules, a party of >4 members only gets a +1 on APL, based on assistance/buffing, which you may still find appropriate. Try tweaking the encounters to be +1CR above as written and see how it goes. If the tend to be far too easy (so easy as to not be fun), give them an extra CR and see how it goes.