Prerequisite(s) Alchemist 8
Benefit(s) The alchemist can manifest a ghostly, incorporeal arm that juts out from his torso. This phantom limb does not grant the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, and it cannot hold or grab anything (including incorporeal objects). The alchemist may use his phantom limb to make a touch attack against a foe as a standard action, scraping away at the very fibers of the victim's soul. This attack deals 1d4 points of damage per alchemist level (Fortitude half ). Creatures that are immune to incorporeal attacks are immune to this damage, but otherwise the damage bypasses all forms of damage reduction except DR/epic. The alchemist may suppress or activate this ability as a free action, and can use his phantom limb for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier (these rounds need not be consecutive).
So that people know what is being referenced.
In essence, if you save away all of the extraneous information this is a standard action melee touch attack.
It is a standard action so an easy way to look at what works with it would be to look at what works with vital strike (which is another standard action attack).
It is a melee touch attack so anything that could effect one should work. I would say if you can weapon focus (ray) then weapon focus (phantom limb) is just as valid a choice.
I would say the bonus damage from Kirin strike would work also and being an alchemist the bonus would likely be huge (hint also take the cognatogen discovery).
Kirin Strike (Combat)
You have read the texts of the perfect way, and know how identify to your enemies’ weak spot.Prerequisite: Int 13, Kirin Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Knowledge (arcana) 9 ranks, Knowledge (dungeoneering, local, nature, planes, or religion) 3 ranks.
Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on Knowledge checks made to identify creatures, including the one Kirin Style allows. While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, as a swift action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage (minimum 2).
I'm not sure there is a strict answer for these.
Personally, my opinion is no. Power Attack wouldn't work, and Weapon Focus unarmed wouldn't work (it's clearly not an unarmed strike), and there is not an weapon focus(phantom limb).
There may be some specific abilities or feats that might enhance it, but most of the common ones I can think of don't mesh well with it.
It's an incorporeal limb that "scrapes away the fibers of the soul". It's not striking with force, or necessarily even precision. It's striking at something that is normally completely intangible. It doesn't specify an energy type or damage type, though it seems like it should probably be negative energy damage.
Things that apply to physical damage specifically like Power Attack or Vital Strike probably shouldn't apply here.
I'm not sure there is a strict answer for these.
Personally, my opinion is no. Power Attack wouldn't work, and Weapon Focus unarmed wouldn't work (it's clearly not an unarmed strike), and there is not an weapon focus(phantom limb).
There may be some specific abilities or feats that might enhance it, but most of the common ones I can think of don't mesh well with it.
It's an incorporeal limb that "scrapes away the fibers of the soul". It's not striking with force, or necessarily even precision. It's striking at something that is normally completely intangible. It doesn't specify an energy type or damage type, though it seems like it should probably be negative energy damage.
Things that apply to physical damage specifically like Power Attack or Vital Strike probably shouldn't apply here.
Why wouldn't you be able to take weapon focus (phantom limb)?
Regarding precision, I assume you are just precluding talk of precision damage like sneak attack?
Because weapon focus does not allow phantom limb as a valid selection.
The precision part was really just me expanding and trying to indicate that this isn't a "physical" attack and things that would only apply to physical attacks (such as landing a sneak attack) wouldn't really apply to something like this in my opinion.
So, are you saying that you can't take weapon focus claw? it isn't a weapon (item) and it isn't listed as one of the other options. it is a body part that you use to attack.
you can take weapon focus claw, the same way you can weapon focus any weapon that you use to attack something. Just like phantom limb, just because it's incorporial doesn't mean it's an invalid target.
Well, it's a standard action to use it and it's one attack (so no iterative attacks) which is why I compared it to vital strike. Anything that can work with vital strike should work with it as well.
Weapon focus? Yes, "You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon"
Power attack? Yes, "take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls...to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls."
Weapon specialization? Yes (if you put in the required levels), "Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th...You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon"
Magic fang/amulet of the mighty fists? Maybe, I think this would be a natural weapon but it doesn't really follow the rules for a natural weapon (it gives a fortitude save for half damage) so... not sure
Inspire courage? yes "a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls"
Arcane strike? Yes "For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction"
The limb's touch attack is neither a weapon nor a natural weapon, it's a special attack that the limb enables. It doesn't have the statistics a weapon would have, and the ability does not say you wield it like a weapon. Weapon Focus and any feat that relies on selecting a weapon will not work. The reason you can Weapon Focus an unarmed strike, natural weapon, grappling, and rays is because the feat lists them as explicit exception. In fact, the magic rules even explicitly say the game considers rays as weapons, but makes no such exception for touch attacks other than being able to score critical hits.
Power attack, however, still works because it's still technically an attack that deals hitpoint damage. I will say the ability is not very well written or thought out. Why does is this incorporeal limb incapable of interacting with incorporeal entities? How is an attack on the creature's soul dealing physical damage?
Unless you can show me an example of a creature that has Weapon Focus of something that isn't a natural weapon, ray, or etc?
as mentioned above, weapon focus (bomb) for alchemist. it is su, doesn't physically exist at the start of his turn, is not called out in the feat, and is a valid target for weapon focus.
as mentioned above, weapon focus (bomb) for alchemist. it is su, doesn't physically exist at the start of his turn, is not called out in the feat, and is a valid target for weapon focus.
That's because the bomb class feature explicitly considers bombs as weapons eligible for weapon focus.
Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus.
Where are these unwritten restrictions to Weapon Focus coming from?
I am not fond of unwritten rules.
It's right on the feat.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Weapon Focus requires you to select a weapon. Unarmed strikes are considered neither manufactured weapons nor natural weapons (unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike). A grapple is not a weapon. Rays are considered weapons, but only because the magic rules say so. This is why the feat lists these three as exceptions.
Phantom limb's touch attack, however, is not a weapon. It's not a natural weapon. It's not an unarmed strike. It's a special attack, like all those oracle and sorcerer bloodline abilities that let you do a melee touch attack to hurt someone. RAW, you can't Weapon Focus them. It makes no sense why you would be able to, because the attacks don't follow any of the standard rules for weapons (natural or otherwise) and nothing lists them as being considered weapons.
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So, a claw, or unarmed strike, is not actually a weapon, but there is an exception within the Weapon Focus feat, to allow them to be selected?
This is your stance?
And all natural attacks are specifically flagged as weapons including claws.
Since there is nothing written about this ability that calls it out as being classified as a weapon it's not a valid choice for weapon focus.
Now, this nonsense about unarmed strikes, and natural weapons, not actually being weapons, is a bit of horse hockey.
Natural weapons are weapons, but not unarmed strike. Unarmed strike is neither a manufactured weapon nor a natural weapon. By definition, unarmed strike is a specific special attack that uses no weapon.
See unarmed strikes in Combat and unarmed strike's description in the Equipment section. Its equipment entry does say "an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon," but as the Combat section elaborates (which entry points to), this simply means it's considered light for the purpose of effects that depend on whether a weapon is light, one-handed, or two-handed. The language of both these entries suggest that unarmed strike is an attack that works like attacking with a melee weapon, but not a melee weapon in of itself. In fact, the entire point of the monk's improved unarmed strike class feature is that his unarmed attacks are considered weapons. Why? Because spells and effects that target weapons don't work on unarmed strike unless they explicitly say so.
"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and [/ba creature with natural physical weapons[/b] all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
You have an arm jutting out of your chest which you use to make melee (touch) attacks. I would say this qualifies as an "armed" unarmed attack. which one? Well you would be "a creature with natural physical weapon" jutting out of your chest.
What is the weapon jutting out of your chest? A phantom limb.Is it a weapon? yes. Do you make attack rolls with it? yes. What can you use to add to it's effectiveness? See my above post (and the one above that about kirin strike).
If a spectral limb extending from your chest which you use to rip the souls of other creatures apart isn't a(n) (awesome) weapon then I don't know what is.
As a thought experiment; If you instead grew a sword out of your chest and it floated around and attacked when you focused on it, would it be a weapon or an extension of you? what if it targeted touch defense? what if it allowed a fort save for half?
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Now, this nonsense about unarmed strikes, and natural weapons, not actually being weapons, is a bit of horse hockey.Natural weapons are weapons, but not unarmed strike. Unarmed strike is neither a manufactured weapon nor a natural weapon. By definition, unarmed strike is a specific special attack that uses no weapon.
See unarmed strikes in Combat and unarmed strike's description in the Equipment section. Its equipment entry does say "an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon," but as the Combat section elaborates (which entry points to), this simply means it's considered light for the purpose of effects that depend on whether a weapon is light, one-handed, or two-handed. The language of both these entries suggest that unarmed strike is an attack that works like attacking with a melee weapon, but not a melee weapon in of itself. In fact, the entire point of the monk's improved unarmed strike class feature is that his unarmed attacks are considered weapons. Why? Because spells and effects that target weapons don't work on unarmed strike unless they explicitly say so.
The unarmed strike is neither a manufactured, or natural weapon, but it is a weapon. Note, the "considered a light weapon" is simply a reminder, and the same line is in the description of natural weapon.
Even without being a Monk, or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, the unarmed strike is indeed a weapon, and counts as one.
An unarmed strike is an attack, not a weapon. It's an attack that follows similar rules to a melee weapon, but is not a melee weapon in of itself, as elaborated in the Combat section. You cannot select an unarmed strike as a selected weapon for any option unless the option explicitly allows you to choose unarmed strikes, like what Weapon Focus does.
Korthis, your fluff argument isn't relevant in the context of rules as written. As written, the limb's soul scratching attack is neither an unarmed strike nor a natural weapon. It's a special attack that the limb merely enables. It follows none of the rules for unarmed strikes and natural attacks. It does not deal weapon damage. Unlike similar abilities like Tentacle and Prehensile Hair, the discovery does not flag the limb as a natural weapon. Yes, you can make an unarmed strike with the phantom limb, but it won't do anything because the ability is a standard action. The scratch attack is not an unarmed strike, and it's been concluded in other threads that you cannot take Weapon Focus for touch attacks RAW.
There's plenty of rules and conventions that say and imply Phantom Limb does not qualify for Weapon Focus, but I haven't seen any convincing evidence to the contrary. I suppose a GM could rule it?
I know much of this is weird as the rules around natural attacks and unarm ed strikes isn't intuitive. It also doesn't help that Phantom Limb is a poorly written ability that comes from a player companion book.
The unarmed strike is a weapon.
This is why Arcane Strike works with unarmed strikes, and anything else that adds to weapon attack rolls, or damage.
Any ability that can be used with a weapon attack, can be used with an unarmed strike.
This is because an unarmed strike, is a weapon.
Hm, okay, I concede. I did not think you could Arcane Strike with unarmed strikes unless you had Improved Unarmed Strikes. I looked around, and you were totally right. So, yes, an unarmed strike is a weapon. I was wrong.
Unfortunately, I still don't believe you can Weapon Focus the phantom limb's 'soul scrape' attack. It's not a weapon attack because:
1) It's flagged as neither an unarmed strike nor a natural attack.
2) It's a melee touch attack, which makes it ineligible for Weapon Focus (unarmed strike). While both melee touch attacks and unarmed strikes are unarmed attacks, a melee touch attack is not an unarmed strike. Other threads have discussed this in detail.
3) It does not deal weapon damage, because the ability deals typeless damage.
4) The ability's fluff serves as the only evidence supporting it as a weapon attack. However, the ability's fluff does not make much sense. It's an incorporeal limb that cannot interact with nearly all incorporeal entities. You can attack a creature's soul, but you cannot attack an incorporeal creature, such as ghosts that are souls. This is an incorporeal attack, but targets Fortitude, a corporeal save. That alone raises many questions. What if you used it on a construct or intelligent undead, creatures that have souls but are immune to effects that grant Fortitude saves.
As a GM, #4 would be the largest reason I wouldn't allow a player to apply weapon feats to the ability. The ability raises so many questions that I'd have to houserule it to oblivion or rewrite it. Now, Ability Focus would still be fairly useful for this ability since the target is more likely to save than dodge the attack.
i see, its the ol' "a weapon by any other name is no longer a weapon" defense.
it's nice how something is reduced to fluff if it doesn't support your argument.
i guess i see a weapon as anything that you use to cause harm and eventual death to an opponent. See that wine bottle, yup improvised weapon. i guess weapon focus improvised weapon is out too because it's too broad and it isn't "weapon(s) focus".
now i am not saying that it does work, but i am saying that it should. I've learned that in pathfinder things are seldom so simple.
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Yes. Weapon Focus(Improvised Weapon) is too broad, and besides, you can't be proficient with them.
You could take 2 levels in Ranger, and take Weapon Focus with an improvised weapon, but it would likely be something like Weapon Focus(Crowbar).
Hell, it's even disputed if you can even threaten with improvised weapons.
That's a whole other rabbit whole, and should be it's own thread.
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Well, it's a standard action to use it and it's one attack (so no iterative attacks) which is why I compared it to vital strike. Anything that can work with vital strike should work with it as well.
Weapon focus? Yes, "You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon"
Power attack? Yes, "take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls...to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls."Weapon specialization? Yes (if you put in the required levels), "Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th...You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon"
Magic fang/amulet of the mighty fists? Maybe, I think this would be a natural weapon but it doesn't really follow the rules for a natural weapon (it gives a fortitude save for half damage) so... not sure
Inspire courage? yes "a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls"
Arcane strike? Yes "For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction"
Weapon focus, yes (others have made interesting arguments about "why no", but I think it applies).
Power attack, only the penalty to the attack, the damage don't work with touch attacks:
Power Attack (Combat)
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Amulet? No, it is neither an unarmed attack nor a natural attack.