seebs wrote: No, it doesn't. You can always create magic items using a suitable craft skill check. That you are required to use a particular craft check when creating items to benefit from this feat doesn't change that in any way; it just means that the only items you can create using this feat to provide you with effective caster levels are the ones for which the craft you picked is appropriate. This is entirely incorrect:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
Only casters of 5th level can take Craft Magic Arms/Armor and only casters of 3rd level can take Craft Wondrous Item.
Master Craftsman is an exception to that rule.
Okay, I can come back to the "in place of", but:
Where do you get the idea of a single distinct "the" spellcraft check, which absolutely had to be a spellcraft check and could not be some other kind of check?
Without the idea that you absolutely must roll spellcraft to create an item, the idea that this feat substitutes for the spellcraft check is incoherent. There's no "the" spellcraft check to substitute for.
If you can establish that there is an absolutely essential and unavoidable spellcraft check, then you can argue that we're substituting for it.
Your reading of "for" is grammatically incorrect in this context. If it said "You must use a check with the selected skill for the check to create the item", it would be a parallel and in-place-of would be a viable reading. But it doesn't. Which means we're almost certainly talking about another sense of "for", meaning "for the purpose of". For instance, if someone says "You must use your specialized weapon for the attack", no one would believe that you were using the specialized weapon in place of the attack. A weapon cannot substitute for an attack, but it can be used in an attack. Similarly, a skill cannot substitute for a check, but it can be used in a check.
So, grammatically, no. You are just plain wrong, that cannot be what that sentence means.
But logically, in terms of game rules, it still doesn't get you what you want even if we ignore that, because the skill being used is already able to be used for item creation. Item creation allows you to use appropriate craft skills. So you're not replacing spellcraft; you're making one of the craft checks already permitted by the item creation rules. And that means that the craft has to be appropriate.
Yes, the feat sucks. We all know it sucks. But your reading is manifestly wrong both as to how English grammar works and as to how the item creation rules work. There is no substitution for a spellcraft check going on. You are using a particular skill for a check, as one uses a particular weapon for an attack, not in place of a check, and that means that you're still stuck with the ordinary rules governing the use of that skill in magic item creation.
Blake Duffey wrote: seebs wrote: No, it doesn't. You can always create magic items using a suitable craft skill check. That you are required to use a particular craft check when creating items to benefit from this feat doesn't change that in any way; it just means that the only items you can create using this feat to provide you with effective caster levels are the ones for which the craft you picked is appropriate. This is entirely incorrect:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
Only casters of 5th level can take Craft Magic Arms/Armor and only casters of 3rd level can take Craft Wondrous Item.
Master Craftsman is an exception to that rule.
You're not quite interpreting seebs correctly.
With appropriate crafting feats, you can always create magic items using a suitable skill check. Seebs didn't put in the highlighted words, of course, but those words are also implicit in the use of Master Craftsman. The Master Craftsman feat only allows you to take the appropriate crafting feats.
The main point is that you do not need to use Spellcraft to create magic items as, (feats permitting), "you can [...] create magic items using a suitable craft skill check. That you are required to use a particular craft check when creating items to benefit from this feat doesn't change that in any way; it just means that the only items you can create using this feat to provide you with effective caster levels are the ones for which the craft you picked is appropriate."
My Dwarven cleric with no spellcraft could still craft a magical hammer with the investment of only the Craft Magic Arms and Amor feat, based on his ability to craft (weapons). My Dwarven fighter would need to add one more feat to that -- Master Craftsman. But neither of them would be able to craft a bow or a suit of armor.
Blake Duffey wrote: seebs wrote: No, it doesn't. You can always create magic items using a suitable craft skill check. That you are required to use a particular craft check when creating items to benefit from this feat doesn't change that in any way; it just means that the only items you can create using this feat to provide you with effective caster levels are the ones for which the craft you picked is appropriate. This is entirely incorrect:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
Only casters of 5th level can take Craft Magic Arms/Armor and only casters of 3rd level can take Craft Wondrous Item.
Master Craftsman is an exception to that rule. That in no way contradicts what I just said, unless you're arguing about whether you could create magic items without item creation feats.
My point is, you don't need spellcraft. At all. Ever. You can make every item in the books using craft (something) checks, assuming you have suitable feats and caster levels, without ever looking at Master Craftsman.
In my opinion, crafting items and enchanting items are two completely different things.
So, the Master Craftsman feat represents that the character knowing it, somehow has figured out how to enchant items.
The feat also states that a craft skill is used to do so. It could have been constructed in a way that the character also had to use spellcraft, as spellcasters do. But somehow the designers chose craft or profession, likely to make those skills more important to the game.
In some cases the use of the craft skill is convenient for the crafter because he can use the skill to make the item and enchant in afterwards, in other cases he has to buy (or find) the item instead.
A character with ranks in craft(armor) is able to create armor, but with the Master Craftsman feat he has learned to enchant anything (determined by the chosen magic item creation feat(s).
seebs wrote: My point is, you don't need spellcraft. At all. Ever. You can make every item in the books using craft (something) checks, assuming you have suitable feats and caster levels, without ever looking at Master Craftsman. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying? You have to have feats (craft magic arms/armor for example) to make magic stuff.
Normally only spellcasters can take those feats due to the caster prereqs.
Master Craftsman allows non-casters to take the craft magic arms/armor feats - and can then use the appropriate craft skill.
If you are saying a wizard can use craft (bows) rather than spellcraft during creation - I think the rules support that.
Blake Duffey wrote:
Master Craftsman allows non-casters to take the craft magic arms/armor feats - and can then use the appropriate craft skill.
If you are saying a wizard can use craft (bows) rather than spellcraft during creation - I think the rules support that.
The issue is that there are people on this thread saying that a non-wizard Master Craftsman can use craft (bows) to make a suit of armor, or a necklace of adaptation, or a carpet of flying.
Leyren wrote: A character with ranks in craft(armor) is able to create armor, but with the Master Craftsman feat he has learned to enchant anything (determined by the chosen magic item creation feat(s). Master craftsman allows that character to take craft magic arms/armor (it replaces caster level 5 with 5 ranks in craft-armor, in your example)
You still need craft magic feats to create magic items.
Leyren wrote:
The feat also states that a craft skill is used to do so. It could have been constructed in a way that the character also had to use spellcraft, as spellcasters do.
And this is incorrect.
Spellcasters do not have to use Spellcraft. It's much more efficient, because Spellcraft can be used for any magic item, while individual craft skills are very limited in their applications (e.g. Craft(armor) only works to make armor, not rings.)
Quote:
But somehow the designers chose craft or profession, likely to make those skills more important to the game.
And also to keep the craftsman to by another skill when he can use the one he has.
Quote:
A character with ranks in craft(armor) is able to create armor, but with the Master Craftsman feat he has learned to enchant anything (determined by the chosen magic item creation feat(s).
I assume you have rule text to support this interpretation? Because no one else has found any.
seebs wrote: Where do you get the idea of a single distinct "the" spellcraft check, which absolutely had to be a spellcraft check and could not be some other kind of check? There isn't a distinct "the skill" there is a distinct "the check" and Master Craftsman says I can use my Craft or Profession for it.
Master Craftsman says I can ANY Craft or Profession skill and use either Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Items.
One can likely come up with at least one Wondrous Item that would be applicable for each individual Craft or Profession skill. However, using your argument, there is absolutely no way that Profession (barkeep) could be used with Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and yet the Feat clearly states that "any" Craft or Profession skill can be used with Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
The magic item creation rules states, "If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with," and it is my argument that Profession (barkeep) is made a valid choice by Master Craftsman for enchanting a shield, either via a substitution for Spellcraft, Craft(armor), or Craft (weapons); or simply straight up because the Feat says you can, have your choice.
Functionally, I, and several others, read this different from several of you.
I've clicked the FAQ button on the initial post, but at last check I was the only one.
Orfamay Quest wrote: The issue is that there are people on this thread saying that a non-wizard Master Craftsman can use craft (bows) to make a suit of armor, or a necklace of adaptation, or a carpet of flying. Thanks much for clarifying.
All master craftsman does is allow a character to take the craft magic feats and use the craft skill in making the final check. (I'm speaking generally, not in response to you)
A ranger with 5 ranks in craft (bows) could take master craftsman, then take craft magic arms/armor - and then make a magic bow. She certainly couldn't make anything on the wondrous list.
Based on the first sentence (choose one) - I don't think the ranger could craft a magic sword (even if she had 5 ranks in craft (sword) )
Orfamay Quest wrote: I assume you have rule text to support this interpretation? Because no one else has found any. Sure they have, it's the Master Craftsman feat. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not the rules text to support the argument.
I certainly don't think it was the intent that craft (socks) could be used to make magic swords.
While a literal reading with squinty eyes may not say it's not impossible - it certainly seems to be an intentional stretching of the intent.
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Orfamay Quest wrote: Leyren wrote:
The feat also states that a craft skill is used to do so. It could have been constructed in a way that the character also had to use spellcraft, as spellcasters do.
And this is incorrect.
Spellcasters do not have to use Spellcraft. It's much more efficient, because Spellcraft can be used for any magic item, while individual craft skills are very limited in their applications (e.g. Craft(armor) only works to make armor, not rings.)
You are right saying spellcasters don't have to use the spellcraft for enchanting. I just assumed they usually don't use craft checks because spellcraft is more useful to them anyways.
And of course you can't use craft(armor) to make jewelry. Note that I never said that. My point was, that enchanting an item is something completely different from creating the mundane item.
PRD wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.
PRD wrote:
Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items).
You have to use the skill connected to Master Craftsman to create magic Items. If you had another skill available for enchanting the item, you could chose which to use.
There's no list of possible skills to use in the Construct entry of magic items, as far as I can tell.
Blake Duffey wrote: I certainly don't think it was the intent that craft (socks) could be used to make magic swords. This seems as reasonable to me as a character using Perform (keyboard) to Intimidate their foes or Perform (percussion) to Handle Animals?
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote: Perform (keyboard) to Intimidate their foes or Perform (percussion) to Handle Animals? I find your examples creative uses of rarely purchased skills. (albeit surprising ones)
I find the interpretation that master craftsman allows you to make a vorpal long sword with perform (pantomime) absurd, and perhaps intentionally so.
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master craftsmen is a wasted feat considering you can get a caster level from a spell like ability via background trait or another feat or race and take the all the craft feats you that way and just use spell craft to make magic items and not be so restrictive. you could even do spell trigger one based off your spell like ability.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mexcalibur wrote: You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).
Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.
You DO need the appropriate craft skill for the item that you wish to make. Given that wondrous items makes almost bloody everything you have the choice of boning up on a lot of craft feats or specialising in specific items. Craft Jewelry however covers a lot of items such as necklaces, brooches, amulets, etc. It covers rings as well, but you need a different feat to craft them. Keep in mind that the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to enchant items that you personally make yourself, so the craft skill is relevant and neccessary
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
You can not use Craft Caligraphy to create a sword, or an amulet.
Blake Duffey wrote: I find your examples creative uses of rarely purchased skills. (albeit surprising ones) Perform (keyboard) is rarely used? Zahir (my Kingmaker character) would be surprised to hear that, as he has max ranks in it and regularly uses it in place of both Diplomacy and Intimidate. Most of the other examples of Craft and Profession skills I use are core ones listed right in the CRB, including Profession(barrister), which I have a PFS character that keeps it maxed.
Blake Duffey wrote: I find the interpretation that master craftsman allows you to make a vorpal long sword with perform (pantomime) absurd, and perhaps intentionally so. Master Craftsman doesn't permit the usage of Perform skills to make magic items, only Craft and Profession, so that would be an absurd interpretation.
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The proof of this working with ANY craft or profession skill should be obvious in the benefit of the feat Master Craftsman.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks.
If the skill had to be the applicable one listed under the item then the feat would tell you that the skill or profession you must choose for master craftsman must be one that is listed under item creation text. There would be a list of acceptable skills to take so you couldn't use profession midwife to enchant swords, armor, bags, anything with magical script.
As it stands you can choose ANY craft or profession skill you have 5 ranks in to qualify for the feat. So choosing any profession skill to qualify now makes the feat obsolete. Choosing any craft skill that's not listed makes the feat obsolete.
Why couldn't a master calligraphy practitioner inscribe magical runes on a weapon, suit of armor, or a shield to provide magical properties?
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Perform (keyboard) is rarely used? Zahir (my Kingmaker character) would be surprised to hear that, as he has max ranks in it and regularly uses it in place of both Diplomacy and Intimidate. Most of the other examples of Craft and Profession skills I use are core ones listed right in the CRB, including Profession(barrister), which I have a PFS character that keeps it maxed.
I would never allow one perform skill to replace multiple other skills on a regular basis. I find it hard to imagine that is 'officially allowed'.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote: Master Craftsman doesn't permit the usage of Perform skills to make magic items, only Craft and Profession, so that would be an absurd interpretation. I'm sorry - profession (pantomime) - does that make it any less absurd?
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Blake Duffey wrote:
I would never allow one perform skill to replace multiple other skills on a regular basis. I find it hard to imagine that is 'officially allowed'.
Your opinion doesn't invalidate a class ability of bards.
Rightbackatya wrote: Blake Duffey wrote:
I would never allow one perform skill to replace multiple other skills on a regular basis. I find it hard to imagine that is 'officially allowed'.
Your opinion doesn't invalidate a class ability of bards. He didn't specify this was a class ability. (I assume versatile performance?) This isn't simply a 'regular' use of a skill.
I stand corrected in this instance.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote: Perform (keyboard) is rarely used? Zahir (my Kingmaker character) would be surprised to hear that, as he has max ranks in it and regularly uses it in place of both Diplomacy and Intimidate. Most of the other examples of Craft and Profession skills I use are core ones listed right in the CRB, including Profession(barrister), which I have a PFS character that keeps it maxed.
This makes much more sense if the class ability of bards is considered. I stand corrected.
I still don't understand the profession(barrister) comment, however.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rightbackatya wrote: The proof of this working with ANY craft or profession skill should be obvious in the benefit of the feat Master Craftsman.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks.
If the skill had to be the applicable one listed under the item then the feat would tell you that the skill or profession you must choose for master craftsman must be one that is listed under item creation text. There would be a list of acceptable skills to take so you couldn't use profession midwife to enchant swords, armor, bags, anything with magical script.
As it stands you can choose ANY craft or profession skill you have 5 ranks in to qualify for the feat. So choosing any profession skill to qualify now makes the feat obsolete. Choosing any craft skill that's not listed makes the feat obsolete.
Why couldn't a master calligraphy practitioner inscribe magical runes on a weapon, suit of armor, or a shield to provide magical properties?
You're creatively failing to read the part where you must use the craft feat to CREATE the item you intend to enchant. That is where the limiting of applicable skills comes into play.
Blake Duffey wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: Blake Duffey wrote:
I would never allow one perform skill to replace multiple other skills on a regular basis. I find it hard to imagine that is 'officially allowed'.
Your opinion doesn't invalidate a class ability of bards. He didn't specify this was a class ability. (I assume versatile performance?) This isn't simply a 'regular' use of a skill.
I stand corrected in this instance. Further upthread I compared the use of Craft/Perform in place of another skill for the purposes of Master Craftsman as being very similar to how Versatile Performance works for Bards.
For Bards it is quite clear that one is not actually "keyboarding" when one intimidates, you simply replace the skill check.
Likewise, my interpretation of Master Craftsman, one need not be "innkeeping" when making a magic cloak, one is just rolling the Profession(innkeeper) skill in place of what one might normally roll. It need not be logical, it's simply a game mechanic like Versatile Performance.
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LazarX wrote:
You're creatively failing to read the part where you must use the craft feat to CREATE the item you intend to enchant. That is where the limiting of applicable skills comes into play.
What is meant by "create the item" in this sentence is "creating the magic item" by which the designers wanted to say "enchant the item".
See the following sentence:
Master Craftsman wrote:
The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements
You wouldn't need to take spell requirements into account for creating the mundane item beforehand.
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LazarX wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: The proof of this working with ANY craft or profession skill should be obvious in the benefit of the feat Master Craftsman.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks.
If the skill had to be the applicable one listed under the item then the feat would tell you that the skill or profession you must choose for master craftsman must be one that is listed under item creation text. There would be a list of acceptable skills to take so you couldn't use profession midwife to enchant swords, armor, bags, anything with magical script.
As it stands you can choose ANY craft or profession skill you have 5 ranks in to qualify for the feat. So choosing any profession skill to qualify now makes the feat obsolete. Choosing any craft skill that's not listed makes the feat obsolete.
Why couldn't a master calligraphy practitioner inscribe magical runes on a weapon, suit of armor, or a shield to provide magical properties?
You're creatively failing to read the part where you must use the craft feat to CREATE the item you intend to enchant. That is where the limiting of applicable skills comes into play. Since when does anyone have to create the base item they wish to enchant? That's a huge inference you're making. I take a masterwork weapon and make it +1 and I've effectively created a +1 weapon. I didn't have to make the base weapon.
Under your argument a wizard now needs craft weapons to CREATE magic weapons as listed under craft magic arms and armor feat.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields.
The very first line of Craft Magic Arms and Armors benefits.
Blake Duffey wrote: I still don't understand the profession(barrister) comment, however. It's just an example I used upthread as well. I could use Profession(barrister) to make a flying carpet with Master Craftsman. Well, not sure what item I used, but still, any item works for me.
I mentioned it, because you were questioning how often some of the skills I mentioned are actually taken. Barrister is actually a pretty good one in a RPG, especially for PFS, as getting out of sticky legal situations happens a LOT!.
It wasn't meant to be confrontational, just answering your question. Apologies if it came across poorly.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote: Further upthread I compared the use of Craft/Perform in place of another skill for the purposes of Master Craftsman as being very similar to how Versatile Performance works for Bards. Thanks - I didn't see the initial comparison.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
For Bards it is quite clear that one is not actually "keyboarding" when one intimidates, you simply replace the skill check.
Likewise, my interpretation of Master Craftsman, one need not be "innkeeping" when making a magic cloak, one is just rolling the Profession(innkeeper) skill in place of what one might normally roll. It need not be logical, it's simply a game mechanic like Versatile Performance.
I do not believe that was the intent of the feat. And I wouldn't allow it in my games. I think if you use the classic legal standard - a 'reasonable person' would not agree with your interpretation.
That said - i do not believe you are going to change your opinion, as the wording in the feat is not explicit enough to persuade you otherwise (game designers are not lawyers).
Happy gaming.
Rightbackatya wrote:
Since when does anyone have to create the base item they wish to enchant? That's a huge inference you're making. I take a masterwork weapon and make it +1 and I've effectively created a +1 weapon. I didn't have to make the base weapon.
I believe the intent was a wizard could take an existing masterwork sword and, with craft magic arms, make it a magic sword (possibly, but not necessarily with a spellcraft check).
A fighter with master craftsman could take craft magic arms and create a magic sword from scratch (using the craft skill)
Hence the disconnect of people arguing that you can take craft (russian dolls) and create a battle axe.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rightbackatya wrote: LazarX wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: The proof of this working with ANY craft or profession skill should be obvious in the benefit of the feat Master Craftsman.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks.
If the skill had to be the applicable one listed under the item then the feat would tell you that the skill or profession you must choose for master craftsman must be one that is listed under item creation text. There would be a list of acceptable skills to take so you couldn't use profession midwife to enchant swords, armor, bags, anything with magical script.
As it stands you can choose ANY craft or profession skill you have 5 ranks in to qualify for the feat. So choosing any profession skill to qualify now makes the feat obsolete. Choosing any craft skill that's not listed makes the feat obsolete.
Why couldn't a master calligraphy practitioner inscribe magical runes on a weapon, suit of armor, or a shield to provide magical properties?
You're creatively failing to read the part where you must use the craft feat to CREATE the item you intend to enchant. That is where the limiting of applicable skills comes into play. Since when does anyone have to create the base item they wish to enchant? That's a huge inference you're making. I take a masterwork weapon and make it +1 and I've effectively created a +1 weapon. I didn't have to make the base weapon.
Under your argument a wizard now needs craft weapons to CREATE magic weapons as listed under craft magic arms and armor feat.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields.
The very first line of Craft Magic Arms and Armors benefits. A Master Craftsman is not a wizard. So the wizard comparison is irrelevant. His magic is literally in his art of creation. He's not speaking arcane formulae to enchant an item provided to him. He is literally invoking magic in act of creating the item itself. Unlike the wizard, for him, enchantment and creation are a single process. It's how Bruenar created Aegis-Fang for his adopted son.
Is it really game breaking in any way to allow it to happen? To disallow it makes the feat near worthless. You've invested 5 skill ranks into a craft or a profession that don't net you much as an adventurer, wasted a feat to make a select few items which doesn't net you much, along with the second feat to actually craft the magic items.
If you didn't require taking the craft magic arms and armor feat and the master craftsman feat was a standalone that let you use your craft skills to make select items I could understand. As it stands it's a large investment and should come with the full benefits.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote: Blake Duffey wrote: I still don't understand the profession(barrister) comment, however. It's just an example I used upthread as well. I could use Profession(barrister) to make a flying carpet with Master Craftsman. Well, not sure what item I used, but still, any item works for me.
I mentioned it, because you were questioning how often some of the skills I mentioned are actually taken. Barrister is actually a pretty good one in a RPG, especially for PFS, as getting out of sticky legal situations happens a LOT!.
It wasn't meant to be confrontational, just answering your question. Apologies if it came across poorly. I completely disagree with your interpretation on this feat - but you need not apologize. My comments can be misconstrued as well.
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LazarX wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: LazarX wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: The proof of this working with ANY craft or profession skill should be obvious in the benefit of the feat Master Craftsman.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks.
If the skill had to be the applicable one listed under the item then the feat would tell you that the skill or profession you must choose for master craftsman must be one that is listed under item creation text. There would be a list of acceptable skills to take so you couldn't use profession midwife to enchant swords, armor, bags, anything with magical script.
As it stands you can choose ANY craft or profession skill you have 5 ranks in to qualify for the feat. So choosing any profession skill to qualify now makes the feat obsolete. Choosing any craft skill that's not listed makes the feat obsolete.
Why couldn't a master calligraphy practitioner inscribe magical runes on a weapon, suit of armor, or a shield to provide magical properties?
You're creatively failing to read the part where you must use the craft feat to CREATE the item you intend to enchant. That is where the limiting of applicable skills comes into play. Since when does anyone have to create the base item they wish to enchant? That's a huge inference you're making. I take a masterwork weapon and make it +1 and I've effectively created a +1 weapon. I didn't have to make the base weapon.
Under your argument a wizard now needs craft weapons to CREATE magic weapons as listed under craft magic arms and armor feat.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields.
The very first line of Craft Magic Arms and Armors benefits. A Master Craftsman is not a wizard. So the wizard comparison is irrelevant. His magic is literally in his art of creation. He's not speaking arcane formulae to enchant an item provided to him. He is literally invoking magic in act of creating the item itself. Unlike... The wizard argument is entirely relevant. You're making argument of having to craft the basic item when there's no mention of this anywhere. The wording is the exact same as in the regular craft feats which means the wizard and the master craftsman is not expected to make the basic item. Only that they have gained enough understanding to make magic items.
Rightbackatya wrote: Is it really game breaking in any way to allow it to happen? To disallow it makes the feat near worthless. You've invested 5 skill ranks into a craft or a profession that don't net you much as an adventurer, wasted a feat to make a select few items which doesn't net you much, along with the second feat to actually craft the magic items.
If you didn't require taking the craft magic arms and armor feat and the master craftsman feat was a standalone that let you use your craft skills to make select items I could understand. As it stands it's a large investment and should come with the full benefits.
I enjoy the feat for flavor if nothing else - A samurai, who is a sword-smith, who buys the craft (swords), takes master craftsman, and then craft magic arms/armor - to craft his Daisho. It likely isn't 'optimized' - but I liked the concept. He could craft blades for others as well.
I certainly like that more than the concept that he can take craft (headcheese) and make any/every magic item.
Blake Duffey wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: Is it really game breaking in any way to allow it to happen? To disallow it makes the feat near worthless. You've invested 5 skill ranks into a craft or a profession that don't net you much as an adventurer, wasted a feat to make a select few items which doesn't net you much, along with the second feat to actually craft the magic items.
If you didn't require taking the craft magic arms and armor feat and the master craftsman feat was a standalone that let you use your craft skills to make select items I could understand. As it stands it's a large investment and should come with the full benefits.
I enjoy the feat for flavor if nothing else - A samurai, who is a sword-smith, who buys the craft (swords), takes master craftsman, and then craft magic arms/armor - to craft his Daisho. It likely isn't 'optimized' - but I liked the concept. He could craft blades for others as well.
I certainly like that more than the concept that he can take craft (headcheese) and make any/every magic item. So it's balanced to require 2 feats to make a select few types of items vs one feat to make all types under whichever craft feat you chose?
Blake Duffey wrote: Rightbackatya wrote:
So it's balanced to require 2 feats to make a select few types of items vs one feat to make all types under whichever craft feat you chose?
I think it's an option that martial characters wouldn't have otherwise (and didn't have in previous editions)
With this feat, Conan can craft his own blade.
In previous editions, it simply wasn't possible - all Conan could do was find a caster to do it.
There is an internal consistency that he uses the appropriate craft skill to make the blade from scratch. There is none if a PC can use ANY craft/profession skill to make ANY magic item. With Craft (Weapons) Conan can craft his own blade. With this feat AND craft magic arms and armor Conan can enchant his own blade. This is the difference. There is no crafting of the initial blade involved only the making it magic portion.
LazarX wrote: Mexcalibur wrote: You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).
Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.
You DO need the appropriate craft skill for the item that you wish to make. Given that wondrous items makes almost bloody everything you have the choice of boning up on a lot of craft feats or specialising in specific items. Craft Jewelry however covers a lot of items such as necklaces, brooches, amulets, etc. It covers rings as well, but you need a different feat to craft them. Keep in mind that the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to enchant items that you personally make yourself, so the craft skill is relevant and neccessary
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any... Just to reiterate (in case anyone gets the idea I still support that stance): I've since arrived at a conclusion different than the one in my initial post, as I've stated earlier in this thread as well. There is no need to debate my post, as it's since moved on to other people.
But yes, the bolded sentence was the exact phrase that caused me to read into the feat too much.
Rightbackatya wrote: There is no crafting of the initial blade involved only the making it magic portion. I think that is an assumption on your part.
Blake Duffey wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: There is no crafting of the initial blade involved only the making it magic portion. I think that is an assumption on your part. How is it an assumption? Where in the feat does it say you have to craft the weapon in question and not just imbue it with magic? The assumption is yours.
Rightbackatya wrote: How is it an assumption? Where in the feat does it say you have to craft the weapon in question and not just imbue it with magic? The assumption is yours. Where does it say you don't craft it?
To respond to Mexcalibur's comment - I think there is some ambiguity over the verbs 'create' vs 'craft' vs 'enchant'.
Some (myself included) read Master Craftsman as 'the PC actually creates the magic item'
This is different than Craft Magic Arms/Armor, where a caster can simply 'enchant' an existing item.
How the reader interprets the word 'craft' can change the way they read the feat, I think.
Why not render the entire argument moot and simply select Spellcraft as the skill you tie Master Craftsman to? It is, after all a craft skill, and it would allow you to take both Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and armor, and to use the same skill for both, since Wondrous Items, Arms, and Armor can all be crafted with a Spellcraft check.
True, most non-spellcasters are going to need to take the Cosmopolitan feat in order to get its full potential, but that does seem a paltry price to pay for the ability to make magic items.
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Blake Duffey wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: How is it an assumption? Where in the feat does it say you have to craft the weapon in question and not just imbue it with magic? The assumption is yours. Where does it say you don't craft it? Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Item Creation) wrote:
You can create magic armor, shields, and weapons.
Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price.
The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.
You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
You have to provide a masterwork weapon to be able to enhance. You don't make it with this check.
I was talking about Master Craftsman.
Blake Duffey wrote: Rightbackatya wrote: How is it an assumption? Where in the feat does it say you have to craft the weapon in question and not just imbue it with magic? The assumption is yours. Where does it say you don't craft it? PRD on Master Craftsman wrote: You can create magic items using these feats PRD on Craft Magic Arms and Armor wrote: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. PRD on Craft Wondrous Items wrote: You can create a wide variety of magic wondrous items. Notice anything similar in the wording of any of these feats? None of them require you make the base item only that you have the feats in order to enchant an item.
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Orfamay Quest wrote: Snowleopard wrote:
Nowhere does the feat explanation state that the crafter may only 'enchant' items matching his craft skill.
No, it doesn't. Nor does it state that the crafter may enchant items that do not match his craft skill; the feat is silent on that.
The rules on which skills can be used are in the magic item creation section, and they are very clear that the skills used must be appropriate to the item crafted.
Nowhere is this restriction lifted.
As an analogy, the Master Craftsman feat does not say that the crafter doesn't gain proficiency with any weapon or armor s/he crafts. Does this mean that we should interpret the feat as granting proficiency?
Read the mastercraftsman feat and the create wondrous item feat.
the master craftsman allows a +2 on a chosen skill check and forces the craftsman to use that skill check when creating magic items. The create woundrous items allows the crafter to create any item in the wondrous item group (except for spell trigger or spell activation items).
The master craftsman feat does not limit the crafter any futher then the spell trigger or spell activation items and the create wondrous item feat allows a master crafter to create all items in that category (except for spell trigger or spell activation items).
So no analogy needed as the feats explain the situation perfectly. And combining the master craftsman + create wondrous item feat allows the craftsman to create any magic wondrous item he/she matches or exceeds the requisites for.
Why can't a PC use craft (swords), master craftsman, and craft magic arms/armor to create a magical sword?
Leyren wrote:
In my opinion, crafting items and enchanting items are two completely different things.
So, the Master Craftsman feat represents that the character knowing it, somehow has figured out how to enchant items.
The feat also states that a craft skill is used to do so. It could have been constructed in a way that the character also had to use spellcraft, as spellcasters do. But somehow the designers chose craft or profession, likely to make those skills more important to the game.
But spellcasters do not have to use spellcraft. That's the entire point of this sub-thread; there is no point at all, in the crafting of any magic item, where you need to have roll or have spellcraft. Ever.
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