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I'm having a little difficulty getting a straight answer on how the feat Master Craftsman works with Craft Wondrous items.
"Master Craftsman - Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item."
Now, this is relatively clear for things like weapons and armor that have a clear class skill associated with them. However, I'm not sure what craft or profession skill would represent wondrous items, as they don't fall neatly into one group or another with their various base items. Any help would be appreciated, thanks for reading.
Craft skills are pretty varied.
Cobbler-boots and shoes maybe gloves
Silve/Goldsmith-bracelets, brooches, necklaces, bracers etc.
Weaving-carpets
Tailor-vests, cloaks, jackets
Shipwright-boats
Glassblower-globes, lenses, monocles, goggles
It really depends how detailed you get with the skill system. Some people let a single skill cover all kinds of things others want a pretty specific skill associated with specific product.
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You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).
Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.
You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).
Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.
Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.
It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.
To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)
So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).
When you are a magic item creator via magic (clerical or arcane) the wondrous item category is the category for anything that does not comply with an another category and therefor the most broad collection of all magic items (most item slots are woundrous too).
Also remember that the master craftsman only allows you to take the create magic item feat substituting the normal caster level requirement. So at level 5 with a maxed-rank skill you can take the master craftsman feat and when you gain you next feat you may take a create item feat (usually level 7).
The ability states you need to use the craft-check of the craft you chose the mastercraftsman feat and create magic item feat. As a GM I find it very strange to say the least to allow a calligraphist to enchant a magic weapon.
It seems logical to me that a weaponsmith who is a master craftsman and has the create arms + armor feat can create a magical variant of magic weapons he can make (not bows)
So I would agree with a cobbler or a leatherworker to make certain leather items and enchanting them.
And an armorer making and enchanting armors.
HOWEVER: I have checked out the exact text concerning the master craftsman and I agree that the text does not prohibit to use a skill to enchant something not created via that specific skill. It simply states that you are a master craftsman and must use you craft skill instead of the normal spellcraft check. So I agree with Mexcalibur!
The ability states you need to use the craft-check of the craft you chose the mastercraftsman feat and create magic item feat. As a GM I find it very strange to say the least to allow a calligraphist to enchant a magic weapon.
Well, obviously it's a game-master's call, but the sword-with-magic-runes-carved-on-it is a staple of heroic fiction since before heroic fiction was invented. For example, from the Lay of Sigrdrifa:
Victory-runes you shall know // if you want to have victory,
and carve them on the sword hilt,
some on the mid-ridges, // some on the battle-marks,
and name Tyr twice.
From Solomon and Saturn:
On his weapon he inscribes a host of battle-marks, baleful book-staves, (and) bewitches the blade in sword-fame.
Both of these are classic Old English poems along the lines of Beowulf. Indeed, the (magical) Giant's Sword in Beowulf is desribed as In pure gold inlay on the sword-guards // there were rune-markings correctly incised. So I would have no problem with a rune-carver as a Master Craftsman.
Master Craftsman specifically calls out that you must choose a specific profession or craft, substituting your ranks in that craft for your caster level and using its check in place of spellcraft. It does not require that you actually have a craft chosen that would normally be associated with the item you want to build.
Actually, it does. "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
Nothing suggests that you can use the chosen skill for an otherwise appropriate item -- you can't "cook" a sword, "embroider" a helmet, "forge" a broom, or "carve" a sandal.
ETA: Sorry, typo. For "otherwise appropriate" read "otherwise inappropriate."
You still can't "brew" a carpet no matter how high your Craft (beermaking) is.
So I would have no problem with a rune-carver as a Master Craftsman.And RAW has no problems with Profession(barrister) being used to make a +3 Flaming Longsword
No, that's simply wrong.
Master Craftsman specifically calls out that you must choose a specific profession or craft, substituting your ranks in that craft for your caster level and using its check in place of spellcraft. It does not require that you actually have a craft chosen that would normally be associated with the item you want to build.Actually, it does. "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
Nothing suggests that you can use the chosen skill for an otherwise appropriate item -- you can't "cook" a sword, "embroider" a helmet, "forge" a broom, or "carve" a sandal.
Orfamay is right here : Master Craftsman allows you to use your craft ranks in the chosen skill instead of your caster level to take feats, but it doesn't allow you to replace spellcraft with your craft skill.
If you have craft (basket weaving), you can only craft something that is related to baskets and basket weaving (the same for every kind of craft).
You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).
Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.
Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.
It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.
To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).
Hmmm. I have to agree my first post is likely in error upon reviewing the rules concerned once more. It does, indeed, state nowhere that you can (or can't) supersede appropriate skill checks as stated in the magic item creation rules with different skill checks. Seeing as this is the case, the more probable reading is to assume the feat does not allow you to do so.
I most likely read too much into the feat, specifically, "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item", taking the "must" to mean the chosen skill could be used anywhere.
My apologies for causing confusion with my first interpretation.
You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).
Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.
Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.
It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.
To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).
Hmmm. I have to agree my first post is likely in error upon reviewing the rules concerned once more. It does, indeed, state nowhere that you can (or can't) supersede appropriate skill checks as stated in the magic item creation rules with different skill checks. Seeing as this is the case, the more probable reading is to assume the feat does not allow you to do so.
I most likely read too much into the feat, specifically, "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item", taking the "must" to mean the chosen skill could be used anywhere.
My apologies for causing confusion with my first interpretation.
No problem Mex ^^ No need for apologies !
For what it's worth I think your reading makes for a much more palatable feat.
A hopeful non-caster would need 3 master craftsman feats as well as craft magical arms and armor just to cover the crafting options (craft: bow, weapon, armor). Trying to do Wondrous items would require at least five more master craftsman feats, probably a lot more.
It's a feat I relegate to NPCs, really.
Master Craftsman
Prerequisite: You must be a non-caster.
Effect: Get +2 to an unimportant skill. You can now take other feats that casters qualify for, with only a few extra restrictions.
Or, if absolutely must play a Fighter or Cavalier, you could take Extra Traits, grab Wendifa Apprentice, and take a trait that fits your character as well.
For what it's worth I think your reading makes for a much more palatable feat.
I agree. I think the "flavor" they're going for is the specialist craftsman who just turns out weapons (or whatever). For example, all the legends of the swordsmith Hatori Hanzo -- at least the one's I'm familiar with -- suggest that he's a legendary swordsmith, but I've never seen or heard of any legendary armor he's made.
If you want to file this under "Martials can't have nice things" go ahead.
Personally, I'd just twist the wording stating that this feat qualifies you to take the appropriate item crafting feats, and that once you have that item crafting feat, you can use Spellcraft as normal (since you have the item crafting feat).
However, I'm not sure what craft or profession skill would represent wondrous itemsA classic "Ask your GM" question, since nothing we say is going to matter.
Actually, there is a rule, which is that you need to use the Craft skill to make the item in question.
Therefore, there is no single craft skill that covers everything. A Pearl of Power would require something jewelry-related, a Carpet of Flying would require something textile-related, a Tome of Understanding would require something book-related, and so forth.
Each of the item creation feats describes within the item crafting rules specifically what the appropriate skills are (e.g. Craft Rod: "Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons)") except Craft Wondrous for exactly this reason. (Craft Wondrous Item: "an applicable Craft or Profession skill check")
Orfamay is right here : Master Craftsman allows you to use your craft ranks in the chosen skill instead of your caster level to take feats, but it doesn't allow you to replace spellcraft with your craft skill.It sure as heck does, it says "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." There is only 1 check to create an item, it's Spellcraft.
Nope. It's the Spellcraft check or an appropriate Craft check. A spellcaster doesn't need a single rank in Spellcraft to craft a magic sword if she has a high enough Craft (weapon) skill.
So you can use Craft (weapon) to make a magic weapon, and if you have the Master Craftsman feat, you can do it even without being a spellcaster.
But you can't use Craft (weapon) to make a magic bow or a magic shield -- and the Master Craftsman feat will not allow you to do so.
I just have to disagree.
I'm sure you do. There is no statement in the rulebook so clear that there isn't someone out there who will misinterpret it.
But, at least in my opinion, you're unlikely to get a FAQ answer, precisely because RAW can easily be quote-mined to support the more limited interpretation.
We know, for example, that magic items can be created normally by spellcrafters using either the Spellcraft skill or another appropriate craft or profession skill -- Spellcraft is not a requirement. (Item crafting: "At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item.")
We also know that the appropriate craft or profession skill varies with the type of item being created (individual item crafting descriptions, e.g. "Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).")
Implicitly (via expressio unius est exclusio alterius), inappropriate skills cannot be used to create items (e.g., you can't brew a magic sword).
Nothing in the text of Master Craftsman suggests either that the chosen skill acts as a substitute for Spellcraft (it acts as itself, and is being used for the skill's own purpose) or that it enables the craftsman to use inappropriate skills.
There's no corresponding argument backed up by rule citations that you can make in favor of your substitutiary theory; it's not like we have duelling citations going on here.
So if the only argument you will accept is an official, Paizo-authored FAQ, you're likely to be very disappointed.
I stand by my interpretation that the Craft/Profession check completely replaces the Spellcraft check.
I'm sure you do. But do you have any written evidence to support this interpretation?
How about I throw this firebomb in on this one?
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.So why can't I choose Profession(barrister) when making my carpet of flying?
Because the rules on creating wondrous items state that the required skill is : "Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."
If you can explain how Profession(barrister) is appropriate, it would be acceptable.
I'm sure you do. But do you have any written evidence to support this interpretation?
I stand by my interpretation that the Craft/Profession check completely replaces the Spellcraft check.
You bet.
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.I choose Craft(stuffed animals), the same one I used for Master Craftsman.
Yeah, that doesn't work. The skill is explicitly required to be "appropriate."
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.Master Craftsman tells me its the appropriate one.
How does it tell you that? It says that you "must," not that you "can" use it.
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You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).
Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.
Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.
It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.
To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).
There is a cauldron made by reed covered in clay, so maybe you can make something,[ ;-P ] but it way, way less useful than craft jewellery or some of the other skills.
You are not using the Craft/Profession skill to make the base (or, in case of armor/weapon, masterwork) item. You are using the feat and Craft/Profession skill to make the item magical or wondrous, nothing more. The base item must be provided before the enchantment is made.
So, you will need an appropriate Craft skill to make the base item, and then use the feat and selected Craft skill to enchant it.
-Doomn
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When you are a magic item creator via magic (clerical or arcane) the wondrous item category is the category for anything that does not comply with an another category and therefor the most broad collection of all magic items (most item slots are woundrous too).
Also remember that the master craftsman only allows you to take the create magic item feat substituting the normal caster level requirement. So at level 5 with a maxed-rank skill you can take the master craftsman feat and when you gain you next feat you may take a create item feat (usually level 7).The ability states you need to use the craft-check of the craft you chose the mastercraftsman feat and create magic item feat. As a GM I find it very strange to say the least to allow a calligraphist to enchant a magic weapon.
It seems logical to me that a weaponsmith who is a master craftsman and has the create arms + armor feat can create a magical variant of magic weapons he can make (not bows)
So I would agree with a cobbler or a leatherworker to make certain leather items and enchanting them.
And an armorer making and enchanting armors.HOWEVER: I have checked out the exact text concerning the master craftsman and I agree that the text does not prohibit to use a skill to enchant something not created via that specific skill. It simply states that you are a master craftsman and must use you craft skill instead of the normal spellcraft check. So I agree with Mexcalibur!
The rule isn't in master craftsman, it is in the rules about making magic items:
Creating Magic Armor
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).Creating Magic Weapons
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).Creating Wondrous Items
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
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For what it's worth I think your reading makes for a much more palatable feat.
A hopeful non-caster would need 3 master craftsman feats as well as craft magical arms and armor just to cover the crafting options (craft: bow, weapon, armor). Trying to do Wondrous items would require at least five more master craftsman feats, probably a lot more.
It's a feat I relegate to NPCs, really.
The feat don't say that you can take it more than once.
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Amazing week. Now I completely agree with some post by Seebs. ;-)
You are not using the Craft/Profession skill to make the base (or, in case of armor/weapon, masterwork) item. You are using the feat and Craft/Profession skill to make the item magical or wondrous, nothing more. The base item must be provided before the enchantment is made.
So, you will need an appropriate Craft skill to make the base item, and then use the feat and selected Craft skill to enchant it.
Citation? Because the "applicable" wording still stands in direct contradiction to the theory.
Basically, this is why the FAQ request will not be answered. There is literally no support to the argument that you can use Profession (cake decorator) to make a magical sword,.... or, for that matter, to make a sword magical.
the feat don't say that you can take it more than once.
I'm aware, I was illustrating how limiting Master Craftsman is compared to just having a caster level.
Like I said, I mostly see this feat as a way to enable the dwarven master swordsmith who lives on a mountain and forges magical blades. Ie I see it primarily as an NPC feat.
1. I believe the feat is intended to actually permit characters without a caster level to be able to make use of two of the many item crafting feats.
2. I interpret the feat to provide exactly a set of mechanics to do that.
I grant you #1. However, the rules already provide such a method. It's simply feat and skill-point intensive. Your #2 is untenable and unsupported, as you yourself have shown by a complete failure to support it.
As analogous construction, "obviously" the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat is intended to permit characters who do not have proficiency with those weapons to use them proficiently. Therefore, the correct interpretation is that EWP gives you proficiency with any and all exotic weapons.
Do you see how the second clause fails to follow from the first?
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Because the rules on creating wondrous items state that the required skill is : "Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."
If you can explain how Profession(barrister) is appropriate, it would be acceptable.
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.Master Craftsman tells me its the appropriate one.
Even though I tend to think that the craft skill should be affiliated with ENCHANTING the item the rules do not suggest so.
Read the master craftsman feat rules very specifically:>>>>>>Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.>>>>>>
The ranks of the mastercraft skill replace the regular requirement of caster level needed for item creation feats.
You must choose the chosen (mastercraft) skill for the check to create the item and that means that you replace the regular spellcraft skill with the mastercraft skill check. The creating of the item is the creating of the magical properties of the item and not the item itself and this is explained in the chapter 'magic item creation'
Nowhere does the feat explanation state that the crafter may only 'enchant' items matching his craft skill. It states specifically that the crafter may not make 2 sorts of items (spell-trigger or spell-activation items) and the feat allows you to make any item relating to the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats and those feats allow you to 'enchant any item', except for the items specifically mentioned in the mastercraftsman feat.
So technically speaking a mastercraftsman with the Cook skill may take the create magic armor feat and enchant masterwork armors using his cooking skill instead of the normal spellcraft skill!!!!!!!! Any craft or profession that has the mastercraft feat attached to it may be used to replace the spellcraft skill for creation and is the requisite for qualifying for an magic item creation feat.
It doesn't mean the crafter can make the masterwork item needed for enchantment, but the magic item creation feats never did that and specifically state you must have this item before you can enchant it and do not state you must craft the item yourself (allthough you may if you can).
Nowhere does the feat explanation state that the crafter may only 'enchant' items matching his craft skill.
No, it doesn't. Nor does it state that the crafter may enchant items that do not match his craft skill; the feat is silent on that.
The rules on which skills can be used are in the magic item creation section, and they are very clear that the skills used must be appropriate to the item crafted.
Nowhere is this restriction lifted.
As an analogy, the Master Craftsman feat does not say that the crafter doesn't gain proficiency with any weapon or armor s/he crafts. Does this mean that we should interpret the feat as granting proficiency?