Craft Wondrous + Master Craftsman


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Liberty's Edge

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I'm having a little difficulty getting a straight answer on how the feat Master Craftsman works with Craft Wondrous items.

"Master Craftsman - Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item."

Now, this is relatively clear for things like weapons and armor that have a clear class skill associated with them. However, I'm not sure what craft or profession skill would represent wondrous items, as they don't fall neatly into one group or another with their various base items. Any help would be appreciated, thanks for reading.


Craft skills are pretty varied.

Cobbler-boots and shoes maybe gloves
Silve/Goldsmith-bracelets, brooches, necklaces, bracers etc.
Weaving-carpets
Tailor-vests, cloaks, jackets
Shipwright-boats
Glassblower-globes, lenses, monocles, goggles

It really depends how detailed you get with the skill system. Some people let a single skill cover all kinds of things others want a pretty specific skill associated with specific product.


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You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).

Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.

You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.


Mexcalibur wrote:

You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).

Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.

You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.

Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.

It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.

To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)

So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).


When you are a magic item creator via magic (clerical or arcane) the wondrous item category is the category for anything that does not comply with an another category and therefor the most broad collection of all magic items (most item slots are woundrous too).
Also remember that the master craftsman only allows you to take the create magic item feat substituting the normal caster level requirement. So at level 5 with a maxed-rank skill you can take the master craftsman feat and when you gain you next feat you may take a create item feat (usually level 7).

The ability states you need to use the craft-check of the craft you chose the mastercraftsman feat and create magic item feat. As a GM I find it very strange to say the least to allow a calligraphist to enchant a magic weapon.
It seems logical to me that a weaponsmith who is a master craftsman and has the create arms + armor feat can create a magical variant of magic weapons he can make (not bows)
So I would agree with a cobbler or a leatherworker to make certain leather items and enchanting them.
And an armorer making and enchanting armors.

HOWEVER: I have checked out the exact text concerning the master craftsman and I agree that the text does not prohibit to use a skill to enchant something not created via that specific skill. It simply states that you are a master craftsman and must use you craft skill instead of the normal spellcraft check. So I agree with Mexcalibur!

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Mexcalibur wrote:
You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.

Concur

Avh wrote:
So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).

Non-concur

Master Craftsman specifically calls out that you must choose a specific profession or craft, substituting your ranks in that craft for your caster level and using its check in place of spellcraft. It does not require that you actually have a craft chosen that would normally be associated with the item you want to build.

This is no different, in function, than how Versatile Performance works for Bards. You don't have to "dance" in order to fly or do acrobatics, you just use your dance skill in place of those other skills.

We shouldn't read more into Master Craftsman than it says.


Snowleopard wrote:


The ability states you need to use the craft-check of the craft you chose the mastercraftsman feat and create magic item feat. As a GM I find it very strange to say the least to allow a calligraphist to enchant a magic weapon.

Well, obviously it's a game-master's call, but the sword-with-magic-runes-carved-on-it is a staple of heroic fiction since before heroic fiction was invented. For example, from the Lay of Sigrdrifa:

Victory-runes you shall know // if you want to have victory,
and carve them on the sword hilt,
some on the mid-ridges, // some on the battle-marks,
and name Tyr twice.

From Solomon and Saturn:

On his weapon he inscribes a host of battle-marks, baleful book-staves, (and) bewitches the blade in sword-fame.

Both of these are classic Old English poems along the lines of Beowulf. Indeed, the (magical) Giant's Sword in Beowulf is desribed as In pure gold inlay on the sword-guards // there were rune-markings correctly incised. So I would have no problem with a rune-carver as a Master Craftsman.

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
So I would have no problem with a rune-carver as a Master Craftsman.

And RAW has no problems with Profession(barrister) being used to make a +3 Flaming Longsword


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:


Master Craftsman specifically calls out that you must choose a specific profession or craft, substituting your ranks in that craft for your caster level and using its check in place of spellcraft. It does not require that you actually have a craft chosen that would normally be associated with the item you want to build.

Actually, it does. "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."

Nothing suggests that you can use the chosen skill for an otherwise appropriate item -- you can't "cook" a sword, "embroider" a helmet, "forge" a broom, or "carve" a sandal.

ETA: Sorry, typo. For "otherwise appropriate" read "otherwise inappropriate."

You still can't "brew" a carpet no matter how high your Craft (beermaking) is.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
So I would have no problem with a rune-carver as a Master Craftsman.
And RAW has no problems with Profession(barrister) being used to make a +3 Flaming Longsword

No, that's simply wrong.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:


Master Craftsman specifically calls out that you must choose a specific profession or craft, substituting your ranks in that craft for your caster level and using its check in place of spellcraft. It does not require that you actually have a craft chosen that would normally be associated with the item you want to build.

Actually, it does. "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."

Nothing suggests that you can use the chosen skill for an otherwise appropriate item -- you can't "cook" a sword, "embroider" a helmet, "forge" a broom, or "carve" a sandal.

Orfamay is right here : Master Craftsman allows you to use your craft ranks in the chosen skill instead of your caster level to take feats, but it doesn't allow you to replace spellcraft with your craft skill.

If you have craft (basket weaving), you can only craft something that is related to baskets and basket weaving (the same for every kind of craft).


Avh wrote:
Mexcalibur wrote:

You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).

Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.

You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.

Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.

It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.

To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)

So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).

Hmmm. I have to agree my first post is likely in error upon reviewing the rules concerned once more. It does, indeed, state nowhere that you can (or can't) supersede appropriate skill checks as stated in the magic item creation rules with different skill checks. Seeing as this is the case, the more probable reading is to assume the feat does not allow you to do so.

I most likely read too much into the feat, specifically, "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item", taking the "must" to mean the chosen skill could be used anywhere.

My apologies for causing confusion with my first interpretation.


Mexcalibur wrote:
Avh wrote:
Mexcalibur wrote:

You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).

Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.

You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.

Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.

It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.

To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)

So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).

Hmmm. I have to agree my first post is likely in error upon reviewing the rules concerned once more. It does, indeed, state nowhere that you can (or can't) supersede appropriate skill checks as stated in the magic item creation rules with different skill checks. Seeing as this is the case, the more probable reading is to assume the feat does not allow you to do so.

I most likely read too much into the feat, specifically, "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item", taking the "must" to mean the chosen skill could be used anywhere.

My apologies for causing confusion with my first interpretation.

No problem Mex ^^ No need for apologies !


For what it's worth I think your reading makes for a much more palatable feat.

A hopeful non-caster would need 3 master craftsman feats as well as craft magical arms and armor just to cover the crafting options (craft: bow, weapon, armor). Trying to do Wondrous items would require at least five more master craftsman feats, probably a lot more.

It's a feat I relegate to NPCs, really.


Master Craftsman
Prerequisite: You must be a non-caster.
Effect: Get +2 to an unimportant skill. You can now take other feats that casters qualify for, with only a few extra restrictions.

Or, if absolutely must play a Fighter or Cavalier, you could take Extra Traits, grab Wendifa Apprentice, and take a trait that fits your character as well.


Kudaku wrote:
For what it's worth I think your reading makes for a much more palatable feat.

I agree. I think the "flavor" they're going for is the specialist craftsman who just turns out weapons (or whatever). For example, all the legends of the swordsmith Hatori Hanzo -- at least the one's I'm familiar with -- suggest that he's a legendary swordsmith, but I've never seen or heard of any legendary armor he's made.

If you want to file this under "Martials can't have nice things" go ahead.

Personally, I'd just twist the wording stating that this feat qualifies you to take the appropriate item crafting feats, and that once you have that item crafting feat, you can use Spellcraft as normal (since you have the item crafting feat).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

BTLOTM wrote:
However, I'm not sure what craft or profession skill would represent wondrous items

A classic "Ask your GM" question, since nothing we say is going to matter.

Why? Because there are no rules and we would all be performing the "I'm your GM and I think blah" function.


James Risner wrote:
BTLOTM wrote:
However, I'm not sure what craft or profession skill would represent wondrous items
A classic "Ask your GM" question, since nothing we say is going to matter.

Actually, there is a rule, which is that you need to use the Craft skill to make the item in question.

Therefore, there is no single craft skill that covers everything. A Pearl of Power would require something jewelry-related, a Carpet of Flying would require something textile-related, a Tome of Understanding would require something book-related, and so forth.

Each of the item creation feats describes within the item crafting rules specifically what the appropriate skills are (e.g. Craft Rod: "Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons)") except Craft Wondrous for exactly this reason. (Craft Wondrous Item: "an applicable Craft or Profession skill check")

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Avh wrote:
Orfamay is right here : Master Craftsman allows you to use your craft ranks in the chosen skill instead of your caster level to take feats, but it doesn't allow you to replace spellcraft with your craft skill.

It sure as heck does, it says "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." There is only 1 check to create an item, it's Spellcraft. What check do you propose is referenced if it isn't the Spellcraft check?

Some of you are proposing that a guy with Profession(gambler) is given the opportunity to expend two whole feats for the ability to create magic dice and cards?

That's not what the Feat says at all.

To make magic armor, you need Craft Magic Arms and Armor. To take Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you either need a Caster Level, or you need Master Craftsman, which gives you a caster level equal to your skill level.

Then, in order to make that magic armor, you need a Spellcraft check. DC being equal to 5+CL or possibly something else, if you have other stuff on the armor, where the CL is 3x the bonus. Master Craftsman states that "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." What check again? Oh, right, the Spellcraft check, the ONLY check that is made to make magic armor.

The Feat does not say that Profession (fisherman) is limited to making magic rods and lures, it tells you exactly how to emulate those other two crafting skills, so that a martial character could, if they wish make magic items by expending two whole feats.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Personally, I'd just twist the wording stating that this feat qualifies you to take the appropriate item crafting feats, and that once you have that item crafting feat, you can use Spellcraft as normal (since you have the item crafting feat).

But that's not what the feat says either, it says "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." It doesn't permit you to use Spellcraft, it requires you to use your Craft or Profession in place of Spellcraft.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Avh wrote:
Orfamay is right here : Master Craftsman allows you to use your craft ranks in the chosen skill instead of your caster level to take feats, but it doesn't allow you to replace spellcraft with your craft skill.

It sure as heck does, it says "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." There is only 1 check to create an item, it's Spellcraft.

Nope. It's the Spellcraft check or an appropriate Craft check. A spellcaster doesn't need a single rank in Spellcraft to craft a magic sword if she has a high enough Craft (weapon) skill.

So you can use Craft (weapon) to make a magic weapon, and if you have the Master Craftsman feat, you can do it even without being a spellcaster.

But you can't use Craft (weapon) to make a magic bow or a magic shield -- and the Master Craftsman feat will not allow you to do so.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I just have to disagree.

I imagine there's already a thread out there trying to FAQ this, so someone link it and we can all press the button.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
I just have to disagree.

I'm sure you do. There is no statement in the rulebook so clear that there isn't someone out there who will misinterpret it.

But, at least in my opinion, you're unlikely to get a FAQ answer, precisely because RAW can easily be quote-mined to support the more limited interpretation.

We know, for example, that magic items can be created normally by spellcrafters using either the Spellcraft skill or another appropriate craft or profession skill -- Spellcraft is not a requirement. (Item crafting: "At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item.")

We also know that the appropriate craft or profession skill varies with the type of item being created (individual item crafting descriptions, e.g. "Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).")

Implicitly (via expressio unius est exclusio alterius), inappropriate skills cannot be used to create items (e.g., you can't brew a magic sword).

Nothing in the text of Master Craftsman suggests either that the chosen skill acts as a substitute for Spellcraft (it acts as itself, and is being used for the skill's own purpose) or that it enables the craftsman to use inappropriate skills.

There's no corresponding argument backed up by rule citations that you can make in favor of your substitutiary theory; it's not like we have duelling citations going on here.

So if the only argument you will accept is an official, Paizo-authored FAQ, you're likely to be very disappointed.


I think you guys may be talking past each other.

In general, you can craft any magic item with either spellcraft or an appropriate craft check.

With master craftsman, you must use the craft you picked with the feat. Since the crafting rules still require that you use either spellcraft or an appropriate craft check, that implies that you can craft only the items for which the craft skill you choise with the feat is appropriate. You can't use spellcraft, because the feat requires you to use the craft skill you got the feat for.

Zahir, you are confused because you're thinking the only-one-check for the item is a spellcraft check. It's not. It's spellcraft or an appropriate craft skill. The feat doesn't let you substitute for spellcraft; it lets you substitute for having caster levels, but only if you are using a specific craft feat which isn't spellcraft.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I appreciate the attempt at mediation seebs, I really do.

I stand by my interpretation that the Craft/Profession check completely replaces the Spellcraft check.

I think this is functionally the same argument as the one on Versatile Performance. In the end, it is clear that you don't sing your way into diplomacy, you substitute your Perform(sing) in place of a Diplomacy check. This is the same thing.

Hey, I'm happy to have a FAQ or a Dev tell me I'm wrong. I seem to be on the unpopular (but obviously correct) side of the spontaneous wizard healer argument too, and I don't even LIKE that ruling, I just think it's what the FAQ is telling us.

The PDT can be a bit intermittent in responding to FAQ requests, but they certainly won't respond to this if no one FAQs it.

So, let's get the PDT to tell us that yes, 2 whole feats and a gambler can make only magic cards and dice, and probably pool cues. Sure seems like a hefty feat tax for the already weak martials at higher levels.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

How about I throw this firebomb in on this one?

PRD wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.

So why can't I choose Profession(barrister) when making my carpet of flying?


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:


I stand by my interpretation that the Craft/Profession check completely replaces the Spellcraft check.

I'm sure you do. But do you have any written evidence to support this interpretation?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:


I stand by my interpretation that the Craft/Profession check completely replaces the Spellcraft check.
I'm sure you do. But do you have any written evidence to support this interpretation?

You bet.

PRD wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.

I choose Craft(stuffed animals), the same one I used for Master Craftsman.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

How about I throw this firebomb in on this one?

PRD wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.
So why can't I choose Profession(barrister) when making my carpet of flying?

Because the rules on creating wondrous items state that the required skill is : "Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."

If you can explain how Profession(barrister) is appropriate, it would be acceptable.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:


I stand by my interpretation that the Craft/Profession check completely replaces the Spellcraft check.
I'm sure you do. But do you have any written evidence to support this interpretation?

You bet.

PRD wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.
I choose Craft(stuffed animals), the same one I used for Master Craftsman.

Yeah, that doesn't work. The skill is explicitly required to be "appropriate."

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Because the rules on creating wondrous items state that the required skill is : "Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."

If you can explain how Profession(barrister) is appropriate, it would be acceptable.

Master Craftsman wrote:
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.

Master Craftsman tells me its the appropriate one.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

Master Craftsman wrote:
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.
Master Craftsman tells me its the appropriate one.

How does it tell you that? It says that you "must," not that you "can" use it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Avh wrote:
Mexcalibur wrote:

You do not need any particular Craft skill to be able to craft Wondrous Items. Usually, Spellcraft is the associated skill, but Master Craftsman allows you to take any single Craft skill and use that in conjunction with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items feat(s).

Yes, this means it is able to use, for instance, Craft (Calligraphy) to add magical abilities to a sword. Or to make wondrous items.

You don't need a specific Craft skill each for arms, armor and wondrous items. In fact, it is impossible as the Master Craftsman feat only allows you to select one Craft skill.

Actually, you DO need a specific Craft skill for each weapon/armor/type of wondrous item.

It's because each one need either Spellcraft or a specific craft or profession, and you must use the selected craft skill.

To craft armor with Master craftsman, you need to use Craft (armor).
To craft bows (and arrows), you need Craft (bows).
To craft any other weapons, you need craft (weapons).
To craft a wondrous item, you need the applicable Craft (it depends on the item, it could be jewelry for amulets and ioun stones, cloth making for cloaks and boots, etc...)

So, no, you can't craft any wondrous items with just Master craftsman feat associated with Craft (basket weaving).

There is a cauldron made by reed covered in clay, so maybe you can make something,[ ;-P ] but it way, way less useful than craft jewellery or some of the other skills.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

I appreciate the attempt at mediation seebs, I really do.

I stand by my interpretation that the Craft/Profession check completely replaces the Spellcraft check.

What spellcraft check?

When you create an item, you have two choices:
1. Spellcraft.
2. An appropriate craft.

There is nothing in this feat that says anything about "replacing spellcraft". It lets you use your ranks in a craft skill as caster levels.

The problem here seems to be that you're reacting to words which are in no way present, specifically, the "replace spellcraft" thing. e.g., you say "substituting your ranks in that craft for your caster level and using its check in place of spellcraft", but only one of those is present in the feat.

PRD wrote:

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

I've helpfully bolded every instance of the word "spell" in this. You will note that not one of them is followed by the word "craft". This feat does not refer to spellcraft, at all.

What seems to have happened is:

1. You started out aware that people use spellcraft to create magic items.
2. You read the text "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
3. You inferred that the skill was substituting for spellcraft.

But that's not right!

PRD wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item.

Then we look at the specific rules:

PRD wrote:

Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).

See how it identifies a specific skill? That means that you can use either spellcraft or craft (armor) to create magic armor.

This feat doesn't let you substitute your craft check for spellcraft, it lets you use item creation feats in conjunction with a single specific chosen craft. That doesn't bypass the need to use either spellcraft or an appropriate craft skill to create a magic item.

Quote:
Hey, I'm happy to have a FAQ or a Dev tell me I'm wrong. I seem to be on the unpopular (but obviously correct) side of the spontaneous wizard healer argument too, and I don't even LIKE that ruling, I just think it's what the FAQ is telling us.

I agree that it's what the FAQ says, I just think that FAQ is obviously wrong.

Quote:
So, let's get the PDT to tell us that yes, 2 whole feats and a gambler can make only magic cards and dice, and probably pool cues. Sure seems like a hefty feat tax for the already weak martials at higher levels.

Yes, this feat sucks horribly. It's insanely weak. It would make more sense to just let anyone do this for free than to charge a feat tax for it.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Orfamay Quest wrote:
How does it tell you that? It says that you "must," not that you "can" use it.

Must > Can


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

How about I throw this firebomb in on this one?

PRD wrote:
At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with.
So why can't I choose Profession(barrister) when making my carpet of flying?

Because the rules for the specific feats identify the allowed crafts. The only one that's got any real leeway is craft wondrous item, which says:

PRD wrote:
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.

Check must be applicable.


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You are not using the Craft/Profession skill to make the base (or, in case of armor/weapon, masterwork) item. You are using the feat and Craft/Profession skill to make the item magical or wondrous, nothing more. The base item must be provided before the enchantment is made.

So, you will need an appropriate Craft skill to make the base item, and then use the feat and selected Craft skill to enchant it.

-Doomn


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
How does it tell you that? It says that you "must," not that you "can" use it.
Must > Can

Not quite.

"Must" is purely restrictive. If you try to use any craft other than the one picked with this feat, this feat gives you no benefits.

That doesn't mean that that skill can be used to do things it can't do.

To put it another way:

By this reasoning, we would conclude that the easiest way to get whirlwind attack is to take it. Since you must have the prerequisites to take the feat, and "must > can", you obviously can take all the prerequisite feats, even though you're first level. Because you must take them. Right?

... Wrong. "Must" restricts your choices. It does not guarantee that you are left with any available choices at all.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Snowleopard wrote:

When you are a magic item creator via magic (clerical or arcane) the wondrous item category is the category for anything that does not comply with an another category and therefor the most broad collection of all magic items (most item slots are woundrous too).

Also remember that the master craftsman only allows you to take the create magic item feat substituting the normal caster level requirement. So at level 5 with a maxed-rank skill you can take the master craftsman feat and when you gain you next feat you may take a create item feat (usually level 7).

The ability states you need to use the craft-check of the craft you chose the mastercraftsman feat and create magic item feat. As a GM I find it very strange to say the least to allow a calligraphist to enchant a magic weapon.
It seems logical to me that a weaponsmith who is a master craftsman and has the create arms + armor feat can create a magical variant of magic weapons he can make (not bows)
So I would agree with a cobbler or a leatherworker to make certain leather items and enchanting them.
And an armorer making and enchanting armors.

HOWEVER: I have checked out the exact text concerning the master craftsman and I agree that the text does not prohibit to use a skill to enchant something not created via that specific skill. It simply states that you are a master craftsman and must use you craft skill instead of the normal spellcraft check. So I agree with Mexcalibur!

The rule isn't in master craftsman, it is in the rules about making magic items:

PRD - Magic item creation rules wrote:


Creating Magic Armor
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).

Creating Magic Weapons
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).

Creating Wondrous Items
Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.

- * -

Kudaku wrote:

For what it's worth I think your reading makes for a much more palatable feat.

A hopeful non-caster would need 3 master craftsman feats as well as craft magical arms and armor just to cover the crafting options (craft: bow, weapon, armor). Trying to do Wondrous items would require at least five more master craftsman feats, probably a lot more.

It's a feat I relegate to NPCs, really.

The feat don't say that you can take it more than once.

- * -

Amazing week. Now I completely agree with some post by Seebs. ;-)


Doomn wrote:

You are not using the Craft/Profession skill to make the base (or, in case of armor/weapon, masterwork) item. You are using the feat and Craft/Profession skill to make the item magical or wondrous, nothing more. The base item must be provided before the enchantment is made.

So, you will need an appropriate Craft skill to make the base item, and then use the feat and selected Craft skill to enchant it.

Citation? Because the "applicable" wording still stands in direct contradiction to the theory.

Basically, this is why the FAQ request will not be answered. There is literally no support to the argument that you can use Profession (cake decorator) to make a magical sword,.... or, for that matter, to make a sword magical.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

seebs wrote:

What seems to have happened is:

1. You started out aware that people use spellcraft to create magic items.
2. You read the text "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
3. You inferred that the skill was substituting for spellcraft.

What has actually happened is:

1. I believe the feat is intended to actually permit characters without a caster level to be able to make use of two of the many item crafting feats.
2. I interpret the feat to provide exactly a set of mechanics to do that.


Diego Rossi wrote:
the feat don't say that you can take it more than once.

I'm aware, I was illustrating how limiting Master Craftsman is compared to just having a caster level.

Like I said, I mostly see this feat as a way to enable the dwarven master swordsmith who lives on a mountain and forges magical blades. Ie I see it primarily as an NPC feat.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:


1. I believe the feat is intended to actually permit characters without a caster level to be able to make use of two of the many item crafting feats.
2. I interpret the feat to provide exactly a set of mechanics to do that.

I grant you #1. However, the rules already provide such a method. It's simply feat and skill-point intensive. Your #2 is untenable and unsupported, as you yourself have shown by a complete failure to support it.

As analogous construction, "obviously" the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat is intended to permit characters who do not have proficiency with those weapons to use them proficiently. Therefore, the correct interpretation is that EWP gives you proficiency with any and all exotic weapons.

Do you see how the second clause fails to follow from the first?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

Because the rules on creating wondrous items state that the required skill is : "Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."

If you can explain how Profession(barrister) is appropriate, it would be acceptable.

Master Craftsman wrote:
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.
Master Craftsman tells me its the appropriate one.

Even though I tend to think that the craft skill should be affiliated with ENCHANTING the item the rules do not suggest so.

Read the master craftsman feat rules very specifically:
>>>>>>Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.>>>>>>

The ranks of the mastercraft skill replace the regular requirement of caster level needed for item creation feats.
You must choose the chosen (mastercraft) skill for the check to create the item and that means that you replace the regular spellcraft skill with the mastercraft skill check. The creating of the item is the creating of the magical properties of the item and not the item itself and this is explained in the chapter 'magic item creation'

Nowhere does the feat explanation state that the crafter may only 'enchant' items matching his craft skill. It states specifically that the crafter may not make 2 sorts of items (spell-trigger or spell-activation items) and the feat allows you to make any item relating to the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats and those feats allow you to 'enchant any item', except for the items specifically mentioned in the mastercraftsman feat.

So technically speaking a mastercraftsman with the Cook skill may take the create magic armor feat and enchant masterwork armors using his cooking skill instead of the normal spellcraft skill!!!!!!!! Any craft or profession that has the mastercraft feat attached to it may be used to replace the spellcraft skill for creation and is the requisite for qualifying for an magic item creation feat.
It doesn't mean the crafter can make the masterwork item needed for enchantment, but the magic item creation feats never did that and specifically state you must have this item before you can enchant it and do not state you must craft the item yourself (allthough you may if you can).


Snowleopard wrote:


Nowhere does the feat explanation state that the crafter may only 'enchant' items matching his craft skill.

No, it doesn't. Nor does it state that the crafter may enchant items that do not match his craft skill; the feat is silent on that.

The rules on which skills can be used are in the magic item creation section, and they are very clear that the skills used must be appropriate to the item crafted.

Nowhere is this restriction lifted.

As an analogy, the Master Craftsman feat does not say that the crafter doesn't gain proficiency with any weapon or armor s/he crafts. Does this mean that we should interpret the feat as granting proficiency?


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It's this kind of thread that has me considering leaving Pathfinder for something simpler.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman---final

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. *Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats*. *You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level.* You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

*Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.*

It's unbelievably clear that the whole purpose of this feat is to allow a martial character to create a narrow list of magic items. For example - I have a samurai with craft (swords) and master craftsman (swords) for the express purpose of self-crafting a magical katana.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Orfamay Quest wrote:

As analogous construction, "obviously" the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat is intended to permit characters who do not have proficiency with those weapons to use them proficiently. Therefore, the correct interpretation is that EWP gives you proficiency with any and all exotic weapons.

Do you see how the second clause fails to follow from the first?

Maybe it's my Tennessee education that's failing me here. No, I don't understand your example at all.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency wrote:
Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.

It quite clearly doesn't give all Exotic Weapons. AMight I suggest the argument might have involved the Whip, it being exotic, and it being both a disarm and a trip weapon, and an argument as to whether the EWP feat allows one the benefits of Improved Disarm and Improved Trip with the weapon.

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Your #2 is untenable and unsupported, as you yourself have shown by a complete failure to support it.

Rather than attacking me, or my command of the English language and Rhetoric, you could try and listen to my argument. Also, looking upstream, I am not the only person who interprets it this way.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
seebs wrote:

What seems to have happened is:

1. You started out aware that people use spellcraft to create magic items.
2. You read the text "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
3. You inferred that the skill was substituting for spellcraft.

What has actually happened is:

1. I believe the feat is intended to actually permit characters without a caster level to be able to make use of two of the many item crafting feats.
2. I interpret the feat to provide exactly a set of mechanics to do that.

But where do you get the idea of "the" spellcraft check that the feat is "replacing"? The feat makes no reference, at all, to spellcraft. There is no "the spellcraft check" in making items. There is no reference to "replacing" or "substituting".


Snowleopard wrote:

The ranks of the mastercraft skill replace the regular requirement of caster level needed for item creation feats.

You must choose the chosen (mastercraft) skill for the check to create the item and that means that you replace the regular spellcraft skill with the mastercraft skill check.

No, it doesn't. You can always create magic items using a suitable craft skill check. That you are required to use a particular craft check when creating items to benefit from this feat doesn't change that in any way; it just means that the only items you can create using this feat to provide you with effective caster levels are the ones for which the craft you picked is appropriate.

If crafting items normally required spellcraft, and you could never use any other craft skill to enchant an item, then you would have a case. But they are very clear about allowing appropriate craft checks, so you don't.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

seebs wrote:
But where do you get the idea of "the" spellcraft check that the feat is "replacing"? The feat makes no reference, at all, to spellcraft. There is no "the spellcraft check" in making items. There is no reference to "replacing" or "substituting".
Master Craftsman wrote:
You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item.
Merriam Webster wrote:
For: 5a : in place of <go to the store for me> b (1) : on behalf of : representing <speaks for the court> (2) : in favor of <all for the plan>

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