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I wanted to share something I noticed with my usual Pathfinder group. Succubi, who are immortal soul-beings that use sex as a weapon, aren't immune to disease. Let that sink in for a moment. More likely than not, most succubi die of incurable sexually transmitted diseases.
In fact, most outsiders probably do, especially evil ones who are generally good at spreading diseases but crap at curing them (there's a few evil outsiders that can use things like wishes to mimic a remove disease or heal spell, but they are few and often quite limited).
This means a succubus who is old and powerful is likewise probably long since completely insane due to things like syphilis destroying her mind and body. In fact, if they're not antipaladins, it's likely that most succubi who are actually good at being succubi and contacting other people's bodies are probably walking cesspools of things that you definitely do not want.
On the plus side they're immune to poison. Or it would be a plus side. I'm pretty sure lots of succubi likely regret this, since it means they can't just kill themselves after they've been turned into a walking colony of STDs and their fingers are falling off from leprosy. (>_<)
Or maybe that's how they cure themselves. Go a seducin', then go and drink 20 gallons of bleach and start over?
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On the other hand, Succubi have a CON of 20 & a Fort save of +7. Yes, the odds ultimately aren't in their favor. However, given their other gifts, I'd say it's not that uncommon for them to 'convince' either a priest him/herself into casting Remove Disease, or someone with enough pull to convince the priest to cast it; or sweet-talk a Glabrezu to using a Wish to simply 'super scrub' the Succubus in question.
Wow, that was a run-on sentence...
Ha, I can just imagine the succubus asking for an std test to make sure her victims are clean and venereal disease free
A succubus antipaladin just got scarier in lots of new ways. Not only are they a succubus that might live a while (without dying to life-threatening diseases) but they can harbor diseases in their bodies that may have even been extinct for centuries. They might not even have to energy drain someone, just have a one night stand and then let their poor hapless victim rot and fall apart as their bodies are consumed by a host of flesh and bone-eating bacteria, parasites, and mind-rotting viruses.
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On the other hand, Succubi have a CON of 20 & a Fort save of +7. Yes, the odds ultimately aren't in their favor. However, given their other gifts, I'd say it's not that uncommon for them to 'convince' either a priest him/herself into casting Remove Disease, or someone with enough pull to convince the priest to cast it; or sweet-talk a Glabrezu to using a Wish to simply 'super scrub' the Succubus in question.
Wow, that was a run-on sentence...
"Convincing" a priest or glabrezu is probably their best bet indeed. That said, it makes them even more leashed to a healbot than an unfaithful paladin begging for indulgences -- I mean atonements. :P
Also, the succubus has treasure. She has money. She can buy a wand of remove disease and UMD it, even if you somehow don't think she can find a willing or force an unwilling priest to do it for her.
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I just noticed that druids aren’t immune to diseases, either. But at least a druid has access to Remove Disease by the time she can turn into a Large bear and grapple a succubus.
This also depends on how diseases function in your game.
Outsider
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.If diseases are microscopic biological things that do bad things in your body. Can an outsider, who is not really made up of earthly material, contract an earthly disease?
OTOH, if diseases are evil spirits that posses your body and drain it of its energies, or what have you. Again, the question is, can one spiritual being posses another?
These are questions you have to take into consideration when DMing. Having outsider NOT immune to disease, is, I think, an oversight.
Yeah it's kind of funny that non-native outsiders aren't immune to disease to start with.
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Well, there go some of my self-destructive fantasies....
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Also, it's not like succubi can't trade sexual favors for cures. Sneak into the motal plane, seduce a preist. Or just stay at home and trade favors with other demons.
Why sneak onto the mortal plane? There is no shortage of priests serving demons in the Abyss. All it would take to obtain a cure is a simple exchange of favors.
Most diseases are species specific. Diseases that would affect humans probably have no ability to harm outsiders.
Diseases that can take out outsiders, perhaps by preying on their fundamanetal essence, would probably have little to no ability against someone made of prime material stuff.
So, unless you're dealing with stuff like mummy rot, what likely happens is any mortal STD the succubi gets dies away quickly, unable to take root and destroyed by a demonic immune system, unless it evolves into something more.
==Aelryinth
I've always viewed them as carriers myself, immune to the diseases they contract. There are a lot things missing from different monsters that they really Should have. Being immune to mortal disease for All outsiders is one of them. But that's homebrew.
This. There's nothing in the rules that talks about sexually transmitted diseases. Typically those kinds of pathogens are specific to a rather narrow, if not single, range of species. The idea that a demon can acquire and suffer from HIV, for example, when they're not human is a little odd.
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I wouldn't use HIV as an example; it started as a virus that jumped the species barrier from chimpanzees to humans.
Then again, by all evidence, small pox jumped the species barrier from cows to humans...
In general, for the really dangerous ones, the species barrier doesn't seem to matter much.
Anyway, for fun, I always give succubi wands of Cure Disease, usually with only a couple charges left. Just to mess with players.
Can't they just charm simone and have them go to a temple.to buy a potion? Like kids Herring an adult to buy alchohol.
Going from cows to humans is mammal to mammal.
going from outsider to human is 'post-life spiritual entity incarnate to mortal.' Bit more of a stretch, I'd say.
==Aelryinth
I am not looking at the stats, but IIRC they have really high social(diplomacy etc) scores, so they can get a lot of what they want without sex. I think that would be used when they need to get a deal done quickly.
Yes, I know the long life span means some of them might have something they don't want, but I think they could most likely remove it.
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Assuming they realized that they had it at all, as some of the most deadly of STDs are unnoticed until it's too late (like syphilis which can lay dormant for decades before killing).
Also, for those who don't know, the succubus (and incubus too) are just kind of the poster children in this case for a humorous quirk in the rules that I'm pointing out. The quirk being the vulnerability of outsiders to diseases in the first place as beings of soul-stuff.
There's nothing at all stopping outsiders, even elementals, from contracting diseases. Yep, fire elementals can contract things like filth fever, even though their bodies should likely be impossible to "infect".
Succubi are just fun to mention in this way because it's attention grabbing and it's funny to think of the consequences. Doesn't it seem odd that a demon, a spiritual entity, has to apparently have a cleric buddy on hand, or gobble lots of magic items, to avoid STDs that her or his victim may have?
Perhaps this is an oversight, perhaps the original developers meant for outsiders to have to deal with things like "devil pox", but none the less it's interesting to look at.
Kind of like how silver dragons live in the clouds with lightning storms and are immune to cold and...acid, instead of cold and electricity.
I am pretty sure it's an oversight that has gone on for a LONG time but i think that i might do this
Anyway, for fun, I always give succubi wands of Cure Disease, usually with only a couple charges left. Just to mess with players.
Anyway thanks Ashiel for bringing this to my attention.
I am pretty sure it's an oversight that has gone on for a LONG time but i think that i might do this
Anyway thanks Ashiel for bringing this to my attention.
Anyway, for fun, I always give succubi wands of Cure Disease, usually with only a couple charges left. Just to mess with players.
It's what I'm here for. ^_^
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Going from cows to humans is mammal to mammal.
going from outsider to human is 'post-life spiritual entity incarnate to mortal.' Bit more of a stretch, I'd say.
==Aelryinth
To be fair a night of passion between a strapping young demon lad and the human girl from across the way could result in a beautiful tiefling baby... if you're compatible that way it would seem to imply you're more similar than you'd think.
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To be fair a night of passion between a strapping young demon lad and the human girl from across the way could result in a beautiful half-fiend baby... if you're compatible that way it would seem to imply you're more similar than you'd think.Going from cows to humans is mammal to mammal.
going from outsider to human is 'post-life spiritual entity incarnate to mortal.' Bit more of a stretch, I'd say.
==Aelryinth
Fixed that for you.
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Luckily, there are no sexually-transmitted diseases in Pathfinder.
Unless Paizo released a sourcebook I'm thoroughly unaware of.
But there is always good old "contact," "inhale," and "ingested," all of which could possibly come into play in the context we are discussing for spreading disease. So it's kinda covered regardless.
To be fair a night of passion between a strapping young demon lad and the human girl from across the way could result in a beautiful tiefling baby... if you're compatible that way it would seem to imply you're more similar than you'd think.Going from cows to humans is mammal to mammal.
going from outsider to human is 'post-life spiritual entity incarnate to mortal.' Bit more of a stretch, I'd say.
==Aelryinth
Actually that's the art of magical conception/divine conception. The genetics are not what is doing it...it's the magic.
If you're talking magical diseases, that's all fine. But a fire elemental isn't going to catch filth fever because the disease would burn up, not infect them.
And we're talking demons in the lower planes. The diseases there would be...robust, to say the least, as there are actual entities MADE of disease there. Purely mortal diseases aren't going to have any strength there.
But that gynospyphepawhatever, that could be nasty!
==Aelryinth
To be fair a night of passion between a strapping young demon lad and the human girl from across the way could result in a beautiful tiefling baby... if you're compatible that way it would seem to imply you're more similar than you'd think.Going from cows to humans is mammal to mammal.
going from outsider to human is 'post-life spiritual entity incarnate to mortal.' Bit more of a stretch, I'd say.
==Aelryinth
Actually that's the art of magical conception/divine conception. The genetics are not what is doing it...it's the magic.
If you're talking magical diseases, that's all fine. But a fire elemental isn't going to catch filth fever because the disease would burn up, not infect them.
And we're talking demons in the lower planes. The diseases there would be...robust, to say the least, as there are actual entities MADE of disease there. Purely mortal diseases aren't going to have any strength there.
But that gynospyphepawhatever, that could be nasty!
==Aelryinth
And unfortunately all of that is wrong. Technically diseases don't need to be that strong. There's lots of demons and devils that have low-ish Fortitude saves. They're not immune to diseases either, which means that if a dire rat bites a fire elemental the fire elemental can indeed catch filth fever, and be affected by it, and lose Constitution from it, and eventually die.
Is this an oversight? Probably. :)
For example, quasits, imps, and lemures stand out as some fiendish creatures that are not only susceptible to mundane diseases but are pretty vulnerable. A lemure has a fortitude no better than a low level martial, and both quasits and imps are nearly as susceptible as human commoners.
A lot of diseases have high save DCs as well...
Bubonic Plague = DC 17, requires 2 successful saves.
Blinding Sickness = DC 16, requires 2 successful saves.
Cackle Fever = DC 16, requires 2 successful saves.
Demon Fever = DC 18, requires 2 successful saves.
Filth Fever = DC 12+, requires 2 successful saves.*
Red Aches = DC 15, requires 2 successful saves.
Slimy Doom (worst STD ever) = DC 14, requires 2 successful saves, causes con drain.
Zombie Rot (actually, maybe this is) = DC ??, requires 2 successful saves.*
*: Can be contracted from creatures at variable save DCs. For example, a typical otyugh has a DC 14 filth fever, and a plague zombie's DC is 10 + 1 for every 2 HD it has.
The most common diseases in core have a DC of 15 or harder.
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Daemons, on the other hand, ARE immune to disease and poison. I wonder how many succubi are carrying syphilis because of a Horseman...
The whole argument is ignoring the fact that diseases are limited in who and what they can affect. You can't filth fever a fire elemental, because it doesn't have a physiology for filth fever to affect. The contagion would die with the rat that bit it.
So, it's a good theoretical exercise, but it ultimately doesn't work with pure mundane diseases. It falls into the "Yeah, but" category instead of being something you should use.
==Aelryinth
The whole argument is ignoring the fact that diseases are limited in who and what they can affect. You can't filth fever a fire elemental, because it doesn't have a physiology for filth fever to affect. The contagion would die with the rat that bit it.
So, it's a good theoretical exercise, but it ultimately doesn't work with pure mundane diseases. It falls into the "Yeah, but" category instead of being something you should use.
==Aelryinth
Dunno, there's nothing about any of that in the mechanics of the game. You can say that there is, but there isn't. As it is now, if a fire elemental fought with an otyugh, it could catch filth fever. It's not even really difficult if the elemental doesn't have a great Fortitude save.
If fire elementals couldn't get diseases then they'd have immunity to them. They don't, so they do.
It's an interesting picture you paint.
As for all the other demons, I always figured those writhing pits of misery were probably not exactly sanitary.
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Dunno, there's nothing about any of that in the mechanics of the game. You can say that there is, but there isn't.The whole argument is ignoring the fact that diseases are limited in who and what they can affect. You can't filth fever a fire elemental, because it doesn't have a physiology for filth fever to affect. The contagion would die with the rat that bit it.
So, it's a good theoretical exercise, but it ultimately doesn't work with pure mundane diseases. It falls into the "Yeah, but" category instead of being something you should use.
==Aelryinth
The thing is that there is a mechanic for that. It's called disease immunity. The creatures in question lack the mechanical defense, therefore they are effected regardless of how strange it sounds.
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The thing is that there is a mechanic for that. It's called disease immunity. The creatures in question lack the mechanical defense, therefore they are effected regardless of how strange it sounds.Dunno, there's nothing about any of that in the mechanics of the game. You can say that there is, but there isn't.The whole argument is ignoring the fact that diseases are limited in who and what they can affect. You can't filth fever a fire elemental, because it doesn't have a physiology for filth fever to affect. The contagion would die with the rat that bit it.
So, it's a good theoretical exercise, but it ultimately doesn't work with pure mundane diseases. It falls into the "Yeah, but" category instead of being something you should use.
==Aelryinth
But Aelrynith isn't talking about disease immunity, he's talking about the (very real) fact that horses don't get the same diseases as dogs, who don't get the same diseases as people. None are immune to diseases and all get them, just not usually the same ones, as they don't transfer between species well. Syphilis, for example, is found pretty much solely in humans.
Now Ashiel's totally right that there's no mechanic for that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true and not immunity to disease...just being susceptible to different ones.
Personally, I'd go with a simplified version of the real way it works and rule that diseases don't jump creature type, generally speaking, and then design some fun Outsider Only diseases (and define the diseases mentioned thus far as Humanoid diseases)...but that's just me.
I'm pretty sure that animals can get generic infections in their wounds. I'm also pretty sure that's exactly what filth fever is. In fact, very few diseases in Pathfinder are even real diseases, save for a few nasty ones like the Bubonic Plague, which as written means your ranger's animal companion can catch it too.
Should I just write "immune to disease" on my animal companion / familiar / nonhuman cohort if I play in either of your games? Does being a dwarf mean I don't catch human diseases? Do we need to roll on a special chart to see if this version of tetanus is one that affects gnomes?
And technically, yes, he is talking about disease immunity, because he's talking about them being immune to certain diseases. If a fire elemental cannot catch nonmagical diseases then that is a form of immunity to disease. Specifically it's immunity to nonmagical diseases.
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I'm pretty sure that animals can get generic infections in their wounds. I'm also pretty sure that's exactly what filth fever is. In fact, very few diseases in Pathfinder are even real diseases, save for a few nasty ones like the Bubonic Plague, which as written means your ranger's animal companion can catch it too.
True enough. Some would certainly jump the boundaries (and I can totally see a Fire Elemental with Filth Fever, it wouldn't quite be the same version people got, but it might be mechanically identical, I'm imagining the flames being a sickly yellow-green...).
Should I just write "immune to disease" on my animal companion / familiar / nonhuman cohort if I play in either of your games? Does being a dwarf mean I don't catch human diseases? Do we need to roll on a special chart to see if this version of tetanus is one that affects gnomes?
Uh...what part of "simplified version based on creature type" wasn't clear there? Dwarfs and Humans are both humanoid and susceptible to the same diseases therefore. An animal companion wouldn't catch humanoid diseases...but would have to watch out for animal ones, or spell created ones like Contagion (which would obviously target the victim's creature type, whatever it is).
And technically, yes, he is talking about disease immunity, because he's talking about them being immune to certain diseases. If a fire elemental cannot catch nonmagical diseases then that is a form of immunity to disease. Specifically it's immunity to nonmagical diseases.
Changing the rules so diseases are creature-type specific is hardly the same as giving certain creatures Immunity. It's a general rule change to the way diseases work.
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Yeah, I would think mundane diseases of humans would have no chance of infecting an outsider. I don't think the immune system even matters, it won't have any more success infecting her as it would a tree.
This. Would you let a Treant catch syphilis? I wouldn't, though the game rules say it could, because it doesn't make sense. The diseases plants get are just different from those people get. And Outsiders are at least as different from humanoids as plants are.
Beyond that, though, an item of remove disease 1/day isn't that expensive. If she's actually vulnerable to human diseases she will be able to deal with it. While no such spell exists I would think there would be a protection from disease spell at no more than 2nd level.
Actually, that totally exists. And I believe a permanent version of it would be a mere 6k gp.
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Hmm... Challenge accepted!
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I disagree--it's his magic that allows this, not biology.To be fair a night of passion between a strapping young demon lad and the human girl from across the way could result in a beautiful tiefling baby... if you're compatible that way it would seem to imply you're more similar than you'd think.Going from cows to humans is mammal to mammal.
going from outsider to human is 'post-life spiritual entity incarnate to mortal.' Bit more of a stretch, I'd say.
==Aelryinth
There's nothing that suggests that to be the case. For example, if a demon and a human fall in love (or find themselves in compromising position with certain orifices in use) in an antimagic field, the antimagic field doesn't have any function that makes it protect vs conceiving a little bundle of fiendish joy. :o
Uh...what part of "simplified version based on creature type" wasn't clear there? Dwarfs and Humans are both humanoid and susceptible to the same diseases therefore. An animal companion wouldn't catch humanoid diseases...but would have to watch out for animal ones, or spell created ones like Contagion (which would obviously target the victim's creature type, whatever it is).
What about aasimar? Tieflings? Half-fiends? Androids? Lizardfolk? Giants? Drider? Centaur? Ogres? Oni? Trolls? Vashnara? Ratfolk? Strix? Dryads? Nymphs?
Does that mean that becoming a dragon disciple renders you immune to all the humanoid-affecting diseases? Are centaur vulnerable to horse-diseases or human diseases? Or are the vulnerable to diseases that affect gargoyles and formians that share their creature type? What if it's a half-dragon centaur? What about hags? They're immune to people diseases and dragon diseases, but they're vulnerable to centaur diseases, unless they are night hags which are outsiders, and thus are vulnerable to angel diseases, right?
And drider are 100% immune to humanoid and vermin diseases, but they have to watch out for aboleth whooping cough, yeah? Because those are both aberrations. Right?
Also, what about undead? Or antipaladins? How would this affect them?
EDIT: What happens if you change creature type while you have a disease? Do you immediately overcome the disease, or did your disease just jump ship and now affects a new type of target? If so, did you just create a new super-bug?
Behold the magically engineered super disease. It's not actually magic, but we managed to get it to jump ship to several different creature types, and by various breeding, templates, and so forth have managed to concoct a super disease that affects everything using an odd mixture of outsider to humanoid to animal to human to androids to lizardfolk to...
The only way the RAW don't make sense is if you assume that disease is caused by millions of very tiny critters living and multiplying inside the body. But I don't know of any reason why that has to be the explanation.
Mmm, slimy doom. :3