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Needing some clarification/confirmation on my understanding of stat drains. I wll try to clearly explain what I'm questioning (sorry if it isn't explained well).
Now by stat drains I mean str/dex/con draining attacks/spells, for instance:
Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.
It is my assumption that by reducing the targets STR by 2 on a damaged opponent would cause the following:
- reduction of melee attack bonus
- reduction in climb/swim checks
Questions:
1)DEX drains would work the same for ranged attack bonus, however a reduction in DEX would affect AC how?
2)CON reduction would obviously affect fort saving throws, but how would con reductions affect HP? lets say a -2 CON drain happens....I am missing how much that would affect/decrease someones HP (is it like a reverse barbarian rage? --2hp per HD??)
Hopefully this makes sense. Thanks for any help.
- Fid
So, for every 2 points of damage to a stat, you reduce any bonuses relying on that stat by 1.
Regarding question one, damaging DEX by 2 means a -1 on ranged attacks, initiative, DEX based skills, and AC up to the amount the armor allows. So if the guy have an 18 DEX but is wearing full plate, then 2 points of DEX damage won't actually lower the AC.
For question two, it is -1 HP per level per 2 points of CON damage (rather than the -2hp you listed). It also means -1 to the FORT save.
Here's a guide to how each ability score handles damage/drain.
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So, for every 2 points of damage to a stat, you reduce any bonuses relying on that stat by 1.
Regarding question one, damaging DEX by 2 means a -1 on ranged attacks, initiative, DEX based skills, and AC up to the amount the armor allows. So if the guy have an 18 DEX but is wearing full plate, then 2 points of DEX damage won't actually lower the AC.
For question two, it is -1 HP per level per 2 points of CON damage (rather than the -2hp you listed). It also means -1 to the FORT save.
Here's a guide to how each ability score handles damage/drain.
Thanks Murphys, appreciate the link to the guide.
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Important point to emphasize here, there is a difference between ability DRAIN attacks and ability DAMAGING attacks.
Damaging attacks simply apply a -1 penalty for every 2 points an ability takes. This means it only affects certain defined parts of each stat (ie 2 points of strength damage will lower your attack rolls and damage done but will NOT change your carry capacity)
Drain attacks are a more severe attack. Drains actually lower your ability score and changes the number on your character sheet. ie a 20 str character drained of 1 point becomes a 19 str character and EVERYTHING based on that score drops.
Also Drain unlike damage doesn't heal. You either get it healed or you stay at this reduced ability score forever.
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Important point to emphasize here, there is a difference between ability DRAIN attacks and ability DAMAGING attacks.
Damaging attacks simply apply a -1 penalty for every 2 points an ability takes. This means it only affects certain defined parts of each stat (ie 2 points of strength damage will lower your attack rolls and damage done but will NOT change your carry capacity)
Drain attacks are a more severe attack. Drains actually lower your ability score and changes the number on your character sheet. ie a 20 str character drained of 1 point becomes a 19 str character and EVERYTHING based on that score drops.
Also Drain unlike damage doesn't heal. You either get it healed or you stay at this reduced ability score forever.
Thanks for the clarification, I wasnt differentiating between the two.
Actually there is no differance between stat drain and stat damage asside from one heals naturally over time and the other does not. the only reason they dont talk about things like carrying capacity for damage is because it supposed to be temperary and only really effect you in the short term ie. combat right now, where drain is longer term assuming you cant get a restoration spell up in here.
it works the exact same way with boosts. except skillpoints and int i think, you only get skill points from perm int bonuses cuz otherwise you could do an int buff whenever you wanted thast one skill you didnt take points in, and thats a tad broken
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Actually there is no differance between stat drain and stat damage asside from one heals naturally over time and the other does not. the only reason they dont talk about things like carrying capacity for damage is because it supposed to be temperary and only really effect you in the short term ie. combat right now, where drain is longer term assuming you cant get a restoration spell up in here.
it works the exact same way with boosts. except skillpoints and int i think, you only get skill points from perm int bonuses cuz otherwise you could do an int buff whenever you wanted thast one skill you didnt take points in, and thats a tad broken
No, that is completely incorrect. Damage only affects you in increments of 2 where every 2 points equals -1 penalty to the specific checks listed for that ability damage.
Drain on the other hand permanently lowers the affected score and changes all stats based on that score.
Read the link referenced above and see just how different these two attacks are.
onecan heal drain damage and get the score back, its only "perminantly lost" cuz it doesnt heal naturally. and you could take ability score damage in smaller increments than 2 at a time and be effected by it. its the exact same thing just one heals and one doesnt, but things like encumberance hardly get mentioned at all in the rules which is why it isnt there. damage and drain are the same thing.
i see no reason why someone drained of strength because he got touched by some undead would react diffrently than someone who mearly took strength damage due to a rogue attack or spell or some such. if temorary and permanant stat bonuses act compleatly the same, why should losses of the stat also not act compleatly the same.
that would be dumb and its not like it makes stat damage all that much worse really
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If you do not like how the game differentiates these two types of attacks feel free to change it in your game but your idea drastically changes the CR of creatures that use these two attacks.
As written drain is easily twice as dangerous as damage since every point of it weakens a victim. Damage needs 2 points at a time to even affect a target.
And there is a massive difference between between pulling a muscle (damage) vs removing that muscle completely out of someones body.
If you don't see the difference between those two then there's nothing else I can say.
you see its not like that at all thought. you only really recieve negatives from drain in increments of 2 as well cuz it acts the same way. taking 1 point of stat drain does not have to affect the ability score modifier, thus is the benefit of having say a 15 in a score, but damage ould do the same thing.
if you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of damage and you are at 13 thus you only have a +1.
if you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of drain and you are at 13 thus you only have a +1.
while with damage that point will heal in a day, drain speciffically requires restoration to cure it
when calculating how damage affects you character we only tell you the pertinant stuff like attack bonus and CMD and such cuz it is most relevent as like 99% of the sources of ability damage happen in combat and you dont care about the other stuff. you are correct in ne sence i looked it up and damage cant make you inelligable for feats so say two weapon fighting will work even if you have 10 points in dex damage. where drain does make feats stop working so i suppose there is that. i think thats incossistant but hey, i can house rule that.
drain is supposed to be longer term as you may not have someone who can cast restoration on you at will, some partys lack casters so they need to think about it. in the end both should function exactly the same. just like with temp and perm bonuses to stats, damage is a temp negative to stats and drain is a perm negative (that you can heal).
when they tell you what things damage affects its the quick stuff.
damage does not signify a strained muscle, it means your muscles have suffered damage in such a way that they cant support you such as a strain , a tear in the flesh, one could role play int damage as amnisia or something. drain mearly means whatever is causing the damage isnt going away on its own, be it a curse or a wound that healed wrong or something.
if somethingg modifies your stats it modifys everything to do with that stat front to back (except as i noted int doesnt do it skill point change till 24 hours has passed i think, it probly should do it right away but that seems like it would slow down the combat and thats not the point of int drain/damage, int drain/damage should stop wizards from casting higher level spells)
your taking whats writen without understanding its context. reading only what is writen and not understanding what is intended is certainly something alot of people do, but read this and tell me i dont make sence. tell me how damage gets that much worse when it effects some of the stuff that is thought about less. it really doesnt, casters may loose some spell slots temporarily, you may have encumberance issues (lol get a dwarf :P) those are the only 2 big ones i can think of, cuz con damage still reduces your hp per hd so thats not getting any worse.
i honestly want to know how damage could get worse for effecting background things, and i will happily discuss those or anything else you bring to the table. it was always my understanding damage is temporary and drain is a pain but they act exactly the same for the short term and the long term
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you see its not like that at all thought. you only really recieve negatives from drain in increments of 2 as well cuz it acts the same way. taking 1 point of stat drain does not have to affect the ability score modifier, thus is the benefit of having say a 15 in a score, but damage ould do the same thing.
if you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of damage and you are at 13 thus you only have a +1.
if you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of drain and you are at 13 thus you only have a +1.
while with damage that point will heal in a day, drain speciffically requires restoration to cure it
when calculating how damage affects you character we only tell you the pertinant stuff like attack bonus and CMD and such cuz it is most relevent as like 99% of the sources of ability damage happen in combat and you dont care about the other stuff. you are correct in ne sence i looked it up and damage cant make you inelligable for feats so say two weapon fighting will work even if you have 10 points in dex damage. where drain does make feats stop working so i suppose there is that. i think thats incossistant but hey, i can house rule that.
drain is supposed to be longer term as you may not have someone who can cast restoration on you at will, some partys lack casters so they need to think about it. in the end both should function exactly the same. just like with temp and perm bonuses to stats, damage is a temp negative to stats and drain is a perm negative (that you can heal).
when they tell you what things damage affects its the quick stuff.
damage does not signify a strained muscle, it means your muscles have suffered damage in such a way that they cant support you such as a strain , a tear in the flesh, one could role play int damage as amnisia or something. drain mearly means whatever is causing the damage isnt going away on its own, be it a curse or a wound that healed wrong or something.
if somethingg modifies your stats it modifys everything to do with that stat front to back...
Well lets stop right there, your example is incorrect so lets clarify that first.
If you have 14 str that's a +2 bonus, take 1 point of strength damage and you are still at 14 with a +2 bonus since damage will only affect your bonus in increments of 2. All of your feats, abilities and weight limits stay the same.
If you have 14 str thats a +2 bonus, take 1 point of drain and you are now at 13 thus you only have a +1 AND your max weight and light, medium, heavy load penalties change. Also if you have any feats or abilities that require you to have Str score of 14 they now stop working since you no longer meet the prerequisites.
Next step:
If you have 14 str that's a +2 bonus, take 2 point of strength damage and you are still at 14 strength with a +2 bonus BUT you also now have a -1 penalty on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Damage doesn't change your actual score it only applies an ever increasing penalty to it.
YOU are not reading the quoted rules and applying your interpretation which is the exact opposite of the written rules. Pathfinder is a literal rule set and things only affect EXACTLY what they say they affect. Damage says it does x, y & z so that's all that it does. Drain says it affects EVERYTHING related to that stat so that's what IT does.
Trying to say it does something it says it doesn't goes directly against the rulings on how the developers designed the game to function.
Read it again.
edit: To clarify it more, looking at how all the other character affecting "Debuffs" work you will say that in each chain the next step is worse then the previous step.
Shaken is bad but frightened is shaken plus worse while panicked is even worse then frightened.
Staggered is bad, but Stunned is worse.
Damage is bad, but Drain is worse.
It's a game of steadily increasing penalties and difficulties, and missing the differences between each step of the penalties lessen the game.
well this is where i respectfully disagree with you sir, i have and will always believe that it works in the opposite line of bonuses, it just makes more sence that way.
if i stat damage you down to 2 strength, your over encumbered and falling over, its just logical, but that strength will return with time.
if i drain you down to 2 strength yes you fall over, only difference is this wont heal with time.
if your int id dammaged to 2 you are an animal for all purposes
int drain to 2 your just not getting smarter over time again.
tell me that doesnt make sence, stop reading the rules and see what they mean, seee it. your litteral reading of the rules would kill my brain if i played with you. we can play a diffrent game and its no worse for wear, i just really dont understand how you see it that way.
Edit: also if i ever started playing PFS id have to figure out which of us is correcxt but untill that time im cool....if i email a PFS person would they be able to give an official answer to this?
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PFS is strictly a rules as written game, and EVERYONE there will tell you that your interpretation is incorrect. Feel free to ask this question again there and watch.
The big difference between our interpretation is you are trying to apply real world expectations to a game based on a different set of world rules. Many things are simplified or just completely changed to a non-logical effect to make the game work. This is one of them.
Damage is strictly a penalty on a die roll stats stay the same, Drain actually lowers the stat itself. Accept it or don't, it's just a game after all.
Mathwei is correct. Any other interpretation of Ability Damage is a house rule, not the game as written:
"Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks."
Nothing at all about carrying capacity or encumbrance here.
Curious:
If I have a 14 Strength and take 14 points of Strength damage, can I still move?
According to the rules, I believe I can since my Strength has never actually changed.
Curious:
If I have a 14 Strength and take 14 points of Strength damage, can I still move?According to the rules, I believe I can since my Strength has never actually changed.
Could be written better, given that the ability score doesn't actually change, but this is right out of the Strength Damage section.
"Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks."
Experiment 626:
My Strength Score is still 14 though because that HASN'T changed even though I took 14 points of Strength damage...
if your int id dammaged to 2 you are an animal for all purposesint drain to 2 your just not getting smarter over time again.
Except,.... no.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose.
I can still cast wizard spells with an intelligence damaged down of 2, although my DC is negligible. If my intelligence were drained to 2, I wouldn't be able to cast spells, as I can't cast (wizard) spells with an intelligence of 9 or below, and drain actually reduces the relevant attribute.