Not really. Even the most evil mortals don't get transformed into archdukes. Even if you sell your soul you don't get to be a duke. You would be lucky to be a mid(7 to 13 CR) level devil.
You have not to earn that(archduke), and even if by some strange twist of fate you made this(mortal to archduke) happen many of the devils you leap frogged who has been trying to get that spot for 10's of thousands of years will be trying to take you down.
Yes you have to be LAWFUL. That is part of who they are. Also you will have enemies even if you earned the position, just because they want you spot, and you likely doublecrossed someone to get there anyway.
Your position is up to the GM. Some normal pit fiends are generals. Some just do other work for ______.
I would suggest reading up on the Hierarchy of devils and deciding what role this player would fit into. Just because he is stronger than X does not mean he is better at doing X's job.
Remember that devil hierarchy is not based on CR, but on usefulness to the cause of devils.
EX: Imps>Bearded devils
Would this be post campaign? Because most devils of rank live in hell and DON'T adventure.
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Well, we know Szuriel the current horseman of war was a former fallen paladin, so it's certainly possible to get pretty high in Abaddon at least on your own. In Hell, you probably have a snowball's chance (but snowball ignores SR, so a snowball's chance might not necessarily be low, as long as you're not up against a gelugon).
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If in Golarion then the general answer is no. Hell is a place of hierarchy and paying your dues and everyone in the pit has to pay their time in order to move up the ranks. Hell 8 of the 9 dukes (if you include Asmodeus in this) have been ruling their respective chunks of the pit SINCE THE BEGINNING OF EXISTENCE. The newest one is still older than almost everything in existence and only got his job after the last guy was killed by The Lord of Dis' "misguided" son and was then selected by the man at the top to fill the position. Hell isn't like the Abyss in Golarion where all you really need is some gumption and an unclaimed chunk of land to be declared "A lord of your respective plane". Devils have to earn that s!!+.
As for being a non evil ruler of a layer of hell that feels kind of out of place with the best answer being "Not for long". Hell is a place that corrupts and twists you, it rots the soul and warps it to something akin to itself. Becoming a being powerful enough to bend the plane to your whim and shape it means that you would also have to accept a lot of it's reality. I mean the plane is so lawful and evil that it literally inhibits chaos and good from happening there.
If you really want to know more about hell and this stuff I suggest combing through the Ask Wes thread. He's the hand behind the pathfinder devil and has written a metric TON of content there answering these questions. Trust me it is worth the comb to see some of the explanations on hells politics in the Golarion setting. Also I believe he fields the whole "can powerful and smart enough mortals skip ahead in the devil hierarchy line?" question.
Now in your own campaign setting though all of this is really up to you though.
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As for Infernal Duke in Golarion it isn't much easier.
To become a duke you've gotta be a pit fiend or other supremely powerful (most likely male) devil (likely with class levels) and put in your dues for millennia. If you hold out long enough and prove to your master (another infernal duke who reports to an archfiend) you could be promoted to a malenbrache. At that point your one overriding goal is to conquer a planet and bend it to your will and that of the lord of darkness.
You manage to pull that off you have a whole planet that worships you alongside Asmodeus and likely your superiors. Most Devils stop here since you have a whole mortal world beneath your devilish talons. The few that go farther than that have to repeat until the higher ups feel you have proven yourself enough (and are not a threat to them) to promote you to Infernal Dukedom. Very Very few ever make it that far especially when you consider the other devils jockeying with you for the same thing, immortal lifespans, legions of devils at their disposal, planets of zealous followers, and ALL THE HIGHER UPS who have to watch and judge you to determine whether or not you should be promoted (as in will it benefit them, are you loyal, will you not threaten them, can your promotion be used to further their own? etc.). You begin to see how this is not a mortal's game.
I don't know about golarion, but in original planescape the potential to become a high ranking infernal court member as a non-devil is definitely possible: at one point a night hag was one of the Nine, which suggests you don't have to be a devil. Similarly, it isn't canon, but one of the endings of the 3.5e videogame neverwinter nights (hordes of the underdark) has the player taking over mephistolpheles' place as the lord of the 8th layer. It's worth noting that in both of these the non-devil gains the position through extreme lawyery loophole abuse.
However, knowing how rigid and racist devils are implied to be towards mortals, without achieving some form of ascendency himself, perhaps into the form of a devil, your player is going to have a lot of serious problems. Most mortals are just walking currency as far as devils are concerned.... but something like a Lich could perhaps command more respect.
Worth remembering that a level 20 character probably isn't in the same ballpark as an infernal duke (a level 20 character goes toe to toe with a pitfiend, which whilst impressive isn't really 'all that' as far as devils go) so such an aspiration is definitely an epic level/mythic tier thing....
Ultimately, this kind of thing is absolutely awesome narratively and you should definitely run with it. I would strongly caution against saying 'no' because you are just ruining your fun and his fun for the sake of a non-existent continuity in the first place.
As for your questions, assuming a 'planescape' model of the nine hells:
1) You cannot straight up challenge a duke - that is more like an abyssal model of rulership. You need to earn the right through the laws of the devils themselves.
2) Being lawful evil isn't just useful for daily life in the nine hells, it's an absolute necessity. The way the great churning meatgrinder which is devil society functions means you just can't compete unless you possess them same kind of (im?)moral rigidity that all devils have at their most fundamental nature
3)Being able to kill a pit fiend doesn't really mean anything in terms of power structure in the nine hells. Power comes in the form of alliances, knowledge, resources and souls rather than any physical or magical display of 'might'.
P.S.
Has your player considered an infernal tiefling as his race? Or how about having him actually play an up-and-coming devil fated (or perhaps engineered by some plot?) to catapult his way through the different forms over the course of a campaign?
Alternatively, has your player considered seeking to gain power in the Abyss, which is a little more welcoming for those seeking personal gain through power alone? There are plenty of mortal/demimortals who control abyssal layers.
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I had a sense that what you guys are saying would be the case but this presents a new problem. If someone can't reasonably make it to Infernal Duke, which is worlds away from being an ArchDuke of Hell, then what authority in Hell would one ever reasonably try to attain? Consider a diabloist....If he can't attain some measure of authority in the hierarchy of Hell then why would be ever pursue it beyond madness? His soul is damned and will only exist to increase Hells power after a trivial amount of your life. A diabloist would know enough to know he is not the master. I believe what the player is seeking is a semi-level playing field between him and some of the greatest powers of Hell.
That's rather like asking why anyone would become a politician if he didn't think he had a shot at making President. Or why anyone would join the army if he didn't think that he could make general? Why start a business if you don't expect it to make you a billionaire?
Hell is deeply hierarchical and for every Infernal Duke there are legions of Infernal Marquesses, Earls, Counts, Viscounts, Barons, Baronets, Knights, Squires, and ordinary devils from pit fiends on down. A powerful diabolist could easily obtain power beyond ordinary measure in the afterlife.
Basically, "some measure of authority" is easy. "A [semi-]level playing field between him and some of the greatest powers of Hell" is much harder.
#2: How often would Infernal Dukes challenge each other? Not through direct duels but politically to gain power.
Never and always, simultaneously. Openly challenging each other would be very rare, because that would be very risky to the challenger. On the other hand, they would always be on the lookout for an opening that might be exploited in a way that would allow an effective challenge.
In the unlikely event that he ever becomes powerful enough to challenge an infernal duke (meaning, of course, defeat a duke's army with his army, not simply defeating the duke in individual combat), his best bet would be try to persuade one of the archdevils to let him conquer the realm of a duke who is loyal to a different archdevil.
This sounds more Abyssal than Infernal to me. The problem with "defeating a duke's army with his army" is that it's wasteful and is more than likely to result in the decimation of both armies, loss of infrastructure, and so forth.
My understanding is that even the archdevils prefer to avoid direct conflict, especially meaningless and unplanned direct conflict caused by ambitious but unruly minions.
What you really want to do is to persuade your archdevil that you (and only you) can do an important enough job that it warrants a Duke. Whether that be a new job you invented (e.g. the Infernal Duke of Spam) or the job that the incumbent, sadly, just isn't up to -- well, that is your choice.
Hell is totalitarian, when you get down to it. Asmodeus does whatever he wants, so that power level is fairly meaningless. I'd guess that "challenges" in Hell would pretty much always consist of backstabbing and discrediting, not in fighting.
In the unlikely event that he ever becomes powerful enough to challenge an infernal duke (meaning, of course, defeat a duke's army with his army, not simply defeating the duke in individual combat), his best bet would be try to persuade one of the archdevils to let him conquer the realm of a duke who is loyal to a different archdevil.
This sounds more Abyssal than Infernal to me. The problem with "defeating a duke's army with his army" is that it's wasteful and is more than likely to result in the decimation of both armies, loss of infrastructure, and so forth.
My understanding is that even the archdevils prefer to avoid direct conflict, especially meaningless and unplanned direct conflict caused by ambitious but unruly minions.
What you really want to do is to persuade your archdevil that you (and only you) can do an important enough job that it warrants a Duke. Whether that be a new job you invented (e.g. the Infernal Duke of Spam) or the job that the incumbent, sadly, just isn't up to -- well, that is your choice.
My thinking was that the archdevils all are of the opinion that there should only be one archdevil ruling everything (with each one obviously considering themselves the correct choice for the job). Each archdevil would therefore constantly be in a state of cold war with all the others, that occasionally turns into open conflict in one small part of their realms.
I agree, with the important words there being "cold" and "occasionally."
While Ronald Reagan might have loved the idea of winning a military conflict with the Soviet Union, he would have been displeased with any army major that decided on his own initiative to invade East Germany, or any air force general that decided to bomb Moscow.
Hell is totalitarian, when you get down to it. Asmodeus does whatever he wants, so that power level is fairly meaningless. I'd guess that "challenges" in Hell would pretty much always consist of backstabbing and discrediting, not in fighting.
This.
But in case you KNOW your damned, you seemingly cannot be made a devil so that you could keep it more than a few decades, and everyone wants your spot in addition to you still have to answer to a boss who have to obey or your doomed. I cant see the logic of this unless you can break one of those conditions.
Thus if I can somehow grant my player 1) a HIGH position, 2) not be truly damned, or 3) become a devil or other "immortal" that will not die to age then I can make his dream a reality (or enough of one). I think the third one is what I need. Even an elf's lifespan is too short to usurp the old authority, assert your authority, and then enjoy it.
That sounds simply like a narrative challenge. There are certainly abilities out there that grant immortality, most notably the 20th level wizard discovery, one of the 20th level sorcerous bloodline abilities, and one of the 20th level monk abilities. It wouldn't be unreasonable for there to be some sort of quest item out there that would give immortality, or even a suitably phrased wish spell (which Asmodeus might be able and willing to grant).
Just beware of an antimagic field that will cause to instantly to turn into a crumbling skeleton fifteen centuries from now. While Asmodeus laughs at you.....
In the unlikely event that he ever becomes powerful enough to challenge an infernal duke (meaning, of course, defeat a duke's army with his army, not simply defeating the duke in individual combat), his best bet would be try to persuade one of the archdevils to let him conquer the realm of a duke who is loyal to a different archdevil.
This sounds more Abyssal than Infernal to me. The problem with "defeating a duke's army with his army" is that it's wasteful and is more than likely to result in the decimation of both armies, loss of infrastructure, and so forth.
My understanding is that even the archdevils prefer to avoid direct conflict, especially meaningless and unplanned direct conflict caused by ambitious but unruly minions.
What you really want to do is to persuade your archdevil that you (and only you) can do an important enough job that it warrants a Duke. Whether that be a new job you invented (e.g. the Infernal Duke of Spam) or the job that the incumbent, sadly, just isn't up to -- well, that is your choice.
My thinking was that the archdevils all are of the opinion that there should only be one archdevil ruling everything (with each one obviously considering themselves the correct choice for the job). Each archdevil would therefore constantly be in a state of cold war with all the others, that occasionally turns into open conflict in one small part of their realms.
Devils don't work that way. Unlike the Abyss if you lose your position it is more likely because you were outsmarted than open combat, and since they are immortal the plans could be thousands of years in the making. Asmodeus has given his choice 9 a place, so it really is up to him who the 9 were, and if you were some Duke or even less than a Duke and gaining an army on part with a Lord of the Nine, them and their Dukes would be plotting to destroy your organization from the inside.
You would call for an attack, and at least a portion of your army may be at your doorstep. You would have to watch for spies and all other sorts of infilitration and sabotage.
@All: what about the idea of going before Asmodeous and making a contract that my player be turned to a devil in exchange for a MASSIVE service to him. The Ruler of Hell would certainly be able to do this as a full deity and no one could challenge his authority. At the same time the player would get what he needs AND the role play experience of combating minor deity level foes.
I doubt he would even bother to see a mortal. It is difficult to get the attention of the archdukes, and you would have to be able to provide a service he cant get from anyone else.
It depends on the mortal, doesn't it?
Basically you are going to have to change the ways devils operate for the player to even gain this position, but it is your game, so there is nothing with that.
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I mean it seems easier to become a deity than to become an infernal duke?!!! And they aren't even true deities.
It's always been easier to become rich than be granted a title: money (or deific power) can come from many places, but a title can only come from the relevant King.
My dear fellows, allow me to give you some suggestion concerning the topic.
Lets start with the obvious: being an infernal duke is an hard job. And it's not a mere situation of power. If a Pathfinder a 20 level paladin can maul a pit fiend, he surely cannot organize the existance of others like him. An infernal duke is like an open social network 24/7. They all are wireless linked (throught telepathy) with thousands of other minions, allies and superiors at any moment of your existance and you usually communicate with them in constructive manner, giving orders, receiving, ecc. Therefore, even from only the mental prospective, a mortal cannot be an infernal duke because he lacks the mental capacity to efficently organize such schemes (and so do the players!)
However, we have notion in pathfinder (not adressing other settings)that it's not impossible for mortals to gain upper tier position of power in Hell. Dispater wife, for examples, is a demigoddes oracle (and in pathfinder to be a demigod you "only" need to be mithyc rank 3 to grant spells). Sure, she have power probably by being dispater's wife, but still this shows that such quest for power is not impossible. The question is, at this point, "which kind of authority is the character looking for". Between Infernal duce and Pit fiends lies in fact a vast sea of lesser titles, like "marquis, baron, count" and such. Those are way more simple to reach that an actual dukehood.
Such titles brought with them a limited asset of power and resources, and a limited area of influence on the material plane.
Lets try know to create the requisite to be an infernal baron (the lesser title i can think that grants you landship) by thinking what would be needed.
The character must be
Legal evil outsider - he cannot be of any other ethos. best pick is to be an half-fiend.
Immortal - the character must not have a finite livespan. if he does, he's not worthy for is still subject to the laws of death (also, devil view time in a greater span then mortals, and they do not give power to people that stays for only a century o so)
Character level - it must be 16 or higher (mythic tiers included), othervise the baron can be summoned by any level 15 magician.
Infernal patron - the character must have an higher infernal power to sponsor his ascention, otherwise any free positions would be given to a pit fiend or such.
Great autority and legendary efficience - the character must not only possess immense power and autority, but also direct his forces to ever improve his already conquered power.
Legal evil outsider - he cannot be of any other ethos. best pick is to be an half-fiend.Immortal - the character must not have a finite livespan. if he does, he's not worthy for is still subject to the laws of death (also, devil view time in a...
The infernal patronage is the linchpin of your list, here. High level, leadership, and efficiency are necessary to get the attention of Asmodeus or one of the Archdevils in the first place. Once the patronage is secured, immortality and becoming an outsider are easy.
It's perfectly reasonable to me that if Asmodeus or one of the eight Archdevils decided to promote a mortal to become an Infernal Duke that they would transmute that person into a half-fiend or even a full devil as part of the deal (sort of like how Arelu Vorlesh is a half-succubus, without having been born that way.)
Every drug dealer thinks they're going to be the king pin but there can only ever be one king pin. That doesn't stop them from trying.
Here's a very brief summary of how Hell works in Golarion. Oversimplification, leaves out interpersonal relationships, and so on, but it's useful.
There are nine archdevils. Eight of them are roughly as powerful as each other. The ninth is Asmodeus. Asmodeus is a god. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Pathfinder lore, so just in case: A god is invincible. Unlike 3.5e's system, where they were really high-level characters with special templates, Pathfinder gods are plot devices. Nothing short of another god or plot has any chance. As an earlier poster said, Hell is totalitarian. Asmodeus's will is law. To be an archdevil, you must convince him to grant you the title, and people have already commented on that.
To be an infernal duke, you may also convince an archdevil. This is not much easier.
Yeah thought as much. It's hard for me as a GM to not find a way for me grant a desire to my player, or at least some semblance. I mean it seems easier to become a deity than to become an infernal duke?!!! And they aren't even true deities.
@All: what about the idea of going before Asmodeous and making a contract that my player be turned to a devil in exchange for a MASSIVE service to him. The Ruler of Hell would certainly be able to do this as a full deity and no one could challenge his authority. At the same time the player would get what he needs AND the role play experience of combating minor deity level foes.
I doubt he would even bother to see a mortal. It is difficult to get the attention of the archdukes, and you would have to be able to provide a service he cant get from anyone else.
The game does not intend for you to do either one, which is why neither has rules support. Sometimes you just have to ignore the rules to make the story work and if this is at the end of the game just make it a prologue. If he mechanically becomes a Duke he won't be on combat anyway most likely. What did you have planned for that part of the game?
Devils don't work that way. Unlike the Abyss if you lose your position it is more likely because you were outsmarted than open combat, and since they are immortal the plans could be thousands of years in the making. Asmodeus has given his choice 9 a place, so it really is up to him who the 9 wereIs that how it works in Golarion? I'm not really very familiar with that world. I was thinking the archdevils were all roughly equal to each other, with nobody higher that they answer to. Like separate kingdoms of Hell.
The same person who wrote most of the outsiders for 3.5, also had a hand in writing for Paizo. Not much has changed. One of the biggest differences between demons and devils is how they handle things.
Demon=March in and take what you want.
Devil=Steal it within the laws of hell or trick them out of it, even if it means finding a loophole in the rules.
They "titles" are equal, but some are clearly more powerful than others. Mephistopheles is the most powerful of the Lords of the Nine as an example.