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I did the math. You're better off going with daggers and the River Rat Trait over kukri's. Only at level 12 when making a full attack w/power attack (or Piranha Strike) does the Kukri pull ahead in DPR. At that point it does a whopping 1.65 more damage on average per full-attack.
The dagger has the added versatility of being able to be thrown. Which, if you followed Kazaan's very solid build advice above, would mean you could take a few extra 'ranged feats'. A feat like Point Blank Shot for example would up the DPR fairly significantly as a +1 to hit is almost always worth more than a flat +1 to damage. PBS gives you both within 30'.
If you play a Shoanti it's perfect as your village could happen to be on the banks of the Yondakari, the Kazaron, or one of the other rivers that cuts through Varisia.
Over the course of your career the flat +1 damage granted by River Rat is going to benefit you more than the expanded threat range of the Kukri; until your static bonus on damage gets well into double digits.
you'll do ok damage on your own but when you start passing crits to whoever is two-handing a big nasty thing (or a blaster using big touch spells, like disintegrate) the party's damage output will skyrocket. if you really want to be a boss carry a scythe or some other x4 weapon for them to borrow.
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Ok, here's what I'm thinking now:
20 pt buy
Str: 17* (7)
Dex: 15 (7)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 13 (3)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)
Level Progression
Archtypes: Spirit Ranger and Nirmathi Irregular
Traits: auspicious tatoo(+1 will), reckless (+1 acrobatics and class skill)
1) Ranger 1: BAB +1, TWF (lvl 1), Weapon Focus:Kukri (Human)
2) Ranger 2: BAB +2, Double Slice (Ranger)
3) Ranger 3: BAB +3, Combat Expertise (lvl 3)
4) Ranger 4: BAB +4
5) Ranger 5: BAB +5, butterfly's sting (lvl 5)
6) Ranger 6: BAB +6, ITWF (Ranger)
7) Ranger 7: BAB +7, gang up (lvl 7)
8) Ranger 8: BAB +8
9) Ranger 9: BAB +9, Improved Critical (lvl 9)
10) Ranger 10: BAB +10, Two Weapon Rend (Ranger)
11) Ranger 11: BAB +11 [your choice] (lvl 11)
Quickdraw is a possibility for the other feat, but I'm thinking I'll come up with something better along the way.
Thoughts?
Would it be possible to do a variant of the switch hitter ranger using daggers?
The idea of switch hitter, as I understand it, is to be a double threat by using ranger bonus feats for one style, but using your standard feats for another.
If you went with quick draw and point blank shout instead of combat expertise and butterfly's sting and went with weapon focus (dagger) and the river rat trait as was mentioned, you'd be using feats and a trait that would work for both combat styles and would add together.
You'd be trading the higher threat range of the kukri for a dagger that would work with both ranged and melee.
Your build seems to already be leaning towards magic use more than the standard ranger with the archetypes giving up all but one favored enemy and one favored terrain, so concentrating on a single wepon might fit the build.
Obviously, you wouldn't have the range of a long bow weilder, but you could still use the bow for long range , drop it for middle range with thrown daggers, the melee with the daggers as well.
By the way how will your ranger spells work with dual wielding?
I don't recall if most ranger spell require somatic components or not.
If you want to go crit fishing the twin kukris can work well. Getting both weapons to benefit from one feat (such as improved critical and weapon focus is nice). However, if you're looking to maximize your own damage, kukri may not be the most effective (I haven't done the math before). If you don't plan to take feats that apply to a particular weapon, then you're certainly better off not wielding dual kukris, as you would deal more damage with a one handed weapon rather than light.
you'll do ok damage on your own but when you start passing crits to whoever is two-handing a big nasty thing (or a blaster using big touch spells, like disintegrate) the party's damage output will skyrocket. if you really want to be a boss carry a scythe or some other x4 weapon for them to borrow.
Butterfly's Sting effect only applies to a melee attack from your ally, not ranged. Otherwise my musket master/Spellslinger/Eldritch Knight would have been overjoyed when the party Slayer got it.
Speaking of that, try looking at the Slayer class from the playtest. Our ranger/rogue dual-wielding kukris liked it so much he rebuilt his character entirely.
my apologies, i forgot that the feat specified melee attacks. (probably because I've seen it used for disintegrate, though now that i think about it that worked because the crit was passed to a magus who used spellstrike and the close range arcana.)
It's easily overlooked, particularly by power-crazed PCs. We only realised it when we were about to apply it in combat for the first time.
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Ok, just as an exercise...
Str: 17* (7)
Dex: 15 (7)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 13 (3)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)
Level Progression
Archtypes: Spirit Ranger and Nirmathi Irregular
Traits: auspicious tatoo(+1 will), reckless (+1 acrobatics and class skill)
1) Slayer 1: BAB +1, TWF (lvl 1), Weapon Focus:Kukri (Human)
2) Slayer 2: BAB +2, Double Slice (Ranger style talent)
3) Slayer 3: BAB +3, Combat Expertise (lvl 3)
4) Slayer 4: BAB +4, Combat Trick: Quickdraw
5) Slayer 5: BAB +5, butterfly's sting (lvl 5)
6) Slayer 6: BAB +6, ITWF (Ranger style talent)
7) Slayer 7: BAB +7, Gang Up (lvl 7)
8) Slayer 8: BAB +8, ? slayer talent
9) Slayer 9: BAB +9, Improved Critical (lvl 9)
10) Slayer 10: BAB +10, Two Weapon Rend (Ranger)
11) Slayer 11: BAB +11 [your choice] (lvl 11)
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If you're willing to hold off on Weapon Focus, you could take that as your 8th level Slayer Talent via Weapon Training (or your 4th level one, holding off on Quick Draw until 8th). You could grab Iron Will with the spare Feat (probably at 5th, after taking Combat Expertise at 1st and Butterfly's Sting at 3rd), or grab a Maneuver Feat, since your Standard Action attacks are mediocre and you've got Combat Expertise already.
If you're willing to put a modicum of investment into it (a +2 Dex item, either tacked onto a belt or an 8k Ioun Stone), you could also get Greater TWF at 10th, then Two Weapon Rend at 11th.
Greater TWF is a trap, an extra attack at a -10 isn't worth a feat. Two Weapon Rend is good though.
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Some interesting ideas here, thanks a bunch guys.
I'll likely stay with ranger rather than multiclassing.
If I decide to go the Butterfly's Sting route then I'd have to invest more in Int than I'd planned, but it's doable.
The dagger/river rat route is interesting too.
Remember that you can use permanent item bonuses to meet feat prerequisites. Is a +x Headband of intellect doable? I don't know what the required intelligence is.
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Greater TWF is a trap, an extra attack at a -10 isn't worth a feat. Two Weapon Rend is good though.
On most builds I agree. Crit fishing with Butterfly's Sting really rewards extra attacks, though. Even ones unlikely to hit, since they're another chance to crit.
Remember that you can use permanent item bonuses to meet feat prerequisites. Is a +x Headband of intellect doable? I don't know what the required intelligence is.
13, but IMO it's probably better to just bite the bullet and save the Headband slot for a Wis booster. Will Saves are shiny, after all, and if it's an essential Feat to the build (rather than a nice bonus) losing it due to, say, Sunder is really gonna hurt.
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Greater TWF is a trap, an extra attack at a -10 isn't worth a feat. Two Weapon Rend is good though.On most builds I agree. Crit fishing with Butterfly's Sting really rewards extra attacks, though. Even ones unlikely to hit, since they're another chance to crit.
It's a negligible chance to crit. If you need a 20 to hit, you only crit when you roll a second 20 on the confirmation roll. The probability of rolling back to back 20s is terrible.
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Yeah...but you might easily only need a 15-18 to hit. I mean, if you're hitting with a 5 on your first attacks (probably not outrageous at that level, see below)...your chances of threatening a crit are actually the same on that attack as your first one (and even your confirmation chances aren't awful...especially if you wanna grab Critical Focus).
I mean, by 10th level we're talking +10 BAB, +3 Favored Target +1 Weapon Focus, +6 Str, +3 Weapon, -2 TWF or so, that's a +21 and hits CR 11 opponents on a 4. CR 12 ones on a 6, and even CR 13 ones on an 8. So, 14, 16, or 18 with that GTWF attack.
Dual weilding obsidian kukris with the ability to auto confirm crits is where its at. When you can apply some serious status effects. Bleeding, stagger, stun... just to name a few. At high levels reducing your opponent to one action is more effective than straight damage.
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Well, I now have 3 sessions under my belt, gotta bite the bullet and decide on a direction. I think I'm going to go with the following. The order of a few feats can be switched up.
20 pt buy
Str: 17* (7)
Dex: 15 (7)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 13 (3)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)
Level Progression
Traits: auspicious tatoo(+1 will), reactionary
1) Slayer 1: BAB +1, TWF(lvl 1), Quickdraw
2) Slayer 2: BAB +2, Ranger Combat Style: Double Slice
3) Slayer 3: BAB +3, Combat Expertise (lvl 3)
4) Slayer 4: BAB +4, Weapon Training: Kukri
5) Slayer 5: BAB +5, Butterfly's Sting (lvl 5)
6) Slayer 6: BAB +6, Ranger Combat Style: ITWF
7) Slayer 7: BAB +7, Gang Up (lvl 7)
8) Slayer 8: BAB +8, Combat Trick Improved Critical
9) Slayer 9: BAB +9, Iron Will (lvl 9)
10) Slayer 10: BAB +10, Ranger Combat Style Two Wpn Rend
11) Slayer 11: BAB +11 ?? (lvl 11)
Looks good
No Power Attack?
Did a Ftr version back in 3.0. Awesome lethality! With all the Critical feats out there, it might still work, particularly in a low magic game.
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I could do something like this if I wanted to take both PA and Lunge. I'd be dropping quickdraw and double slice.
I'm dubious about the relative effectiveness of double slice, since it's only giving me 2 dmg on offhand attacks until 8th when it becomes a 3 point difference, again only on the offhand. I don't like dropping quickdraw, but it's down to the hard choices.
It would also mean I could drop the dex to 14, freeing up points to either undump Cha a bit or put int to a 14.
20 pt buy
Str: 17* (7)
Dex: 15 (7)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 13 (3)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)
Level Progression
Traits: auspicious tatoo(+1 will), reactionary
1) Slayer 1: Combat Expertise(lvl 1), Power Attack (human)
2) Slayer 2: Ranger Combat Style: TWF
3) Slayer 3: Butterfly's Sting (lvl 3)
4) Slayer 4: Weapon Training: Kukri
5) Slayer 5: Gang Up (lvl 5)
6) Slayer 6: Ranger Combat Style: ITWF
7) Slayer 7: Lunge (lvl 7)
8) Slayer 8: Combat Trick Improved Critical
9) Slayer 9: Iron Will (lvl 9)
10) Slayer 10: Ranger Combat Style Two Wpn Rend
11) Slayer 11: ?? (lvl 11)
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Power Attack is, IMO, pretty sub-par for TWF builds given that it only give +1 damage for any -1 to hit on off-hand attacks. So...on half your attacks it's probably worth it damage-wise, and the other half definitely not. That's a poor basis for a Feat.
And it decreases your crit-fishing effectiveness to boot.
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The only time it's worth it to use Power Attack for a TWF build is if you're a Monk using TWF Unarmed because Monks get full Power Attack bonus even on their off-hand unarmed strikes.
They'd also get it if flurrying with a single weapon, which is a legitimate tactic.
But yeah, Monks are pretty much the only TWF people Power Attack is worth it for.
Power Attack is, IMO, pretty sub-par for TWF builds given that it only give +1 damage for any -1 to hit on off-hand attacks. So...on half your attacks it's probably worth it damage-wise, and the other half definitely not. That's a poor basis for a Feat.
And it decreases your crit-fishing effectiveness to boot.
Is this true of piranha strike too?
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Is this true of piranha strike too?Power Attack is, IMO, pretty sub-par for TWF builds given that it only give +1 damage for any -1 to hit on off-hand attacks. So...on half your attacks it's probably worth it damage-wise, and the other half definitely not. That's a poor basis for a Feat.
And it decreases your crit-fishing effectiveness to boot.
Yes. The damage on Piranha Strike is halved for off-hand & Secondary natural weapon attacks the same as Power Attack.
I figured, thanks.
My brother and I are thinking of trying out PFS using characters who are brothers as well. Ive been thinking of going TWF kukri butterfly's sting Slayer with him doing naginata-wielding Sword Saint. Maybe get a couple of teamwork feats too.
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I figured, thanks.
My brother and I are thinking of trying out PFS using characters who are brothers as well. Ive been thinking of going TWF kukri butterfly's sting Slayer with him doing naginata-wielding Sword Saint. Maybe get a couple of teamwork feats too.
Very solid team build. Outflank and Paired Opportunists make this build absurd if done properly.
Very solid team build. Outflank and Paired Opportunists make this build absurd if done properly.I figured, thanks.
My brother and I are thinking of trying out PFS using characters who are brothers as well. Ive been thinking of going TWF kukri butterfly's sting Slayer with him doing naginata-wielding Sword Saint. Maybe get a couple of teamwork feats too.
Yep, those were the two I was looking at. Great minds think alike! ;-)
Not to threadjack too much, but do you have any other suggestions for this combo? I'm decent about planning ahead, but don't have a lot of practical experience with higher-level play. For example, is combat reflexes ok just for the sword saint, or should the slayer get it too?
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Yep, those were the two I was looking at. Great minds think alike! ;-)
Indeed!
Not to threadjack too much, but do you have any other suggestions for this combo? I'm decent about planning ahead, but don't have a lot of practical experience with higher-level play. For example, is combat reflexes ok just for the sword saint, or should the slayer get it too?
Both of them should get it, and both should have as much Dex as you could arrange without damaging the build's effectiveness otherwise to take advantage of it.
Why? Because every time the kukri guy criticals, you both get two AoO, since he criticals (which gives you both an AoO before he foregoes it) and then (on his AoO) the Naginata guy criticals, which gives you each another one. It's absurd. This is a cheesy as hell RAW interpretation...but you're doing PFS.
And that's why Matt2VK may be generally correct, but couldn't be more wrong about this particular pair build.