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So I have run into a bit of a pickle a GM for PFS. One of my regular players is playing a wizard who just so happened to turn level 11 and took Planar Binding as one of his spells. After the scenario when he turned level 11, he explained the rationale behind his spell choice. Simply put, he believes that he is going to cast Planar Binding and bind multiple genies to give him 3 wishes each. First he said he would do it to get that +5 inherent bonus in his stats and after that to wish for more spells to scribe.
Now, I have been looking in the boards for threads about binding genies and usually the way to stop genie abuse is simply because in a campaign, the GM can make it so there are Consequences(TM) for binding and abusing noble djinni or efreet. But in Society play, I can't see of a way to enforce consequences without coming off as vindictive or without derailing the story and possibly punishing the rest of the party for something they didn't do.
To be honest, I do not believe he will go through with it as this player routinely makes ridiculous claims like that. Much like he threatens to throw multiple necklaces of fireballs into a room and follow that up with a normal fireball (a plan of action which I am guilty of encouraging, but has never happened). But I would like to be prepared. All you GMs out there, how would you handle this... shall we say unique situation?
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Let's see.. you got..
A will save to avoid being bound, a chance to planar travel out (if he doesn't dimensional anchor it..which requires a save AND SR check). Revenge and 'mis-interpretation' of the wish can be definitely done by it.
('I want to be more intelligent'.. could mean he's now VENERABLE.. with the resulting outcome.)
Personally, I don't think you should allow it. (Review the rules on getting access to high level spells for one thing) and if you do.. well tell him to expect the NEXT GM to disallow it.
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It is a sixth level spell. Wizards get sixth level spells at 11th level. I don't think it is in the list of banned spells either so I can't say, "No, that spell is banned," as the spell is still within the purview of spells you can purchase--or in this case learn for free.
As for venerable, PFS does not allow older characters. Or rather, it does but they don't get any bonuses or penalties. And even if it did, I think there is a spell to mitigate it. Age resistance or something to that effect.
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The issue of what spells carry over between scenarios came up in another thread and I think a very strict reading would mean that the wish effects wouldn't carry over.
This would be it in a nutshell IMO. It's a permanent effect from an instantaneous spell Wish, therefore it would not carry over past the end of the scenario.
Having to go through the hassle and expense to constantly rebind planar creatures to get this benefit should be enough to dissuade most any rational player I would think.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Hmm... I'm not sure this works in PFS:
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with
the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario.
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.
So, unless he is using the wish to repair damage or drain, it ends at the end of the scenario.
So he has to cast it after the mission briefing.
First he has to cast a magic circle inward.
Then he has to cast Planar Binding.
The genie has to fail his save.
Congrats, you now have an unfriendly CR 8 encounter added to the adventure. How is his diplomacy? He gets one shot at a DR 27 Diplomacy check, to make it friendly (plus possible situational modifiers.) He then gets one chance at a diplomacy check to ask for a wish, which I would consider a pretty serious favor.
If diplomacy fails, the genie plane shifts.
He has to beat the Genie's initiative to cast dimensional anchor. (Or the genie will disappear.)
If the Genie is anchored, the Genie now uses change size, and goes from large to huge. Since magic circle directed inward can only hold creatures of size large or smaller, the genie is now not physically bound by the circle (though it is affected as if by protection from evil.)
And the first time all this means that the PCs run out of time to complete the mission, fur will fly.
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It is a sixth level spell. Wizards get sixth level spells at 11th level. I don't think it is in the list of banned spells either so I can't say, "No, that spell is banned," as the spell is still within the purview of spells you can purchase--or in this case learn for free.
As for venerable, PFS does not allow older characters. Or rather, it does but they don't get any bonuses or penalties. And even if it did, I think there is a spell to mitigate it. Age resistance or something to that effect.
I was referring to the WISH.. which is a 9th level spell (or equivalent). And if you want to be REALLY mean.. give him the +5 Inherent bonus.. but only for seconds.. (no duration was listed)
Not to mention.. once he RELEASES the Genie.. it can come and get him.. and a CR 8 encounter won't be fun if he WAITS till they are in an encounter.
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Worse case scenario, depending on how the player frames his exploits, this could lead to alignment change territory if he gets too coercive.Summoning dangerous outsiders to bargain for their services sounds positively cheery compared to what the Decemvirate asks its operatives to do on a daily basis.
Good thing you volunteered for it and weren't drafted against your will.
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Personally? I don't really see this sort of situation as unique, so much as "Wizard basic tactics 101". Let's examine the barriers for this tactic in PFS:
1). The spell allows SR.
(This can be a major barrier to a non-barrier, depending upon the PC's build)
2). The spell allows a saving through.
(Again, this can be a major barrier or non-barrier depending on the PC's build)
3). Employing this tactic properly requires three spell slots for that day, per use - planar binding, dimensional anchor, magic circle against evil.
(A small barrier to non-barrier, depending upon if the scenario allows time to rest)
4). Unless we are talking level 17+ characters with dominate monster, the called creature cannot be compelled to do your bidding without some manner of reasonable offer, as "impossible demands or unreasonable demands are never agreed too."
(I personally believe a straight Cha check of "grant me your wishes" falls squarely into unreasonable demands. However, a successful charm monster or similar ability first followed by the Cha check as described under planar binding would probably be reasonable - you're good friends at that point after all, and using a daily S-LA is hardly taxing to the efreet.)
5). If the PC is particularly malicious in their efforts to pursue this course, such as belligerently robbing the creature of free will, or demanding it will remain enslaved until it cooperates, doing this on a regular basis outside of dire circumstances would be reasonable grounds for a GM to caution the player their actions are beginning to borderline evil.
As for recourse? Most high level casters who do it right (read: intelligently) avoid most of those anyhow, because simulacrum is hideously broken.
For PFS? It is not nearly as much of an issue in terms of game balance, because the effects gained will not endure past this single scenario.
The main thing I would concern myself with in this situation is table time. Make sure the player knows what he is doing, how he will do it, and hammer out the necessary rolls quickly so it doesn't impact the story.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Congrats, you now have an unfriendly CR 8 encounter added to the adventure. How is his diplomacy? He gets one shot at a DR 27 Diplomacy check, to make it friendly (plus possible situational modifiers.) He then gets one chance at a diplomacy check to ask for a wish, which I would consider a pretty serious favor.
If diplomacy fails, the genie plane shifts.
He has to beat the Genie's initiative to cast dimensional anchor. (Or the genie will disappear.)Reread Magic Circle versus Evil. Using the special preparatory diagram prevents it from escaping and blocks all of its abilities.
I did read it.
It only stops it from physically escaping, it can still plane shift out unless you cast anchor on the diagram. It also only works on creatures that fit within the 10 foot circle. (The genie is huge at will, it does not fit, becoming huge does not disturb the diagram. It just makes it so the diagram is now too small.)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Except that magic circle explicitly states that it does not contain creatures that are too large.
If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only.
I suppose you could metamagic widen the circle.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Actually, what it says is it can't target the circle, and can't directly try to break it, but can take indirect actions that result in it being broken.Uh, no.
The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can.
The circle is not distrubed. It is right there under me, completely intact. I'm just now larger than it. I do have to watch my feat so I don't scuff it. But that's it.
It's just the same as if you had conjured a huge outsider into the circle. It is still there, they are just bigger than it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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By the way. I don't see anything in there saying that the circle is unnecessary once the creature promises to serve. If the creature promises to serve, and then you break the circle, the compulsion to serve you goes away. And if you don't break the circle, it can promise all it wants, it can't cast wish on you as long as you are outside the circle, because you are using the special formula.
So if you want it to cast wish on you, you have to enter the circle. And as far as I can tell, there is no language saying that it can't hurt you once it has promised to serve you. It just has to leave enough alive to cast wish on. (Or it can just kill you and wait a few days for the spell to end.)
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There's an old guide, "Mastering the Malconvoker", written by Treantmonklvl20, that has lots of good planar binding and summoning advice. Specifically, the section about binding a succubus lists a lot of tricks to make the called creature do whatever you say.
One of the original issues though, was using wish, as listed in the spell description, for inherent bonuses to ability scores. As other posters hinted at, there are other PFS-legal ways to get wish cast (granted, usually at the post-retirement level). So...
* Is this use of wish allowed?
* Will the inherent bonuses stay between scenarios?
* If the bonuses don't stay, would a PC also lose any bonuses gained from reading one of the inherent-bonus-granting tomes (which are consumed on use)?
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Wish inherent bonus is lost. Tome bonus stays because you paid for the item.A slight clarification: The tome bonus stays if you paid for the item. This came from a previous clarification where a higher level module has a tome as a loot drop.
What if you cast Wish and pay the 25k to get yourself an inherent bonus. How is that different from a tome?
25k of course being the material component cost.
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I'm sure that sone people will say that this isn't legal but first I'd just say no (depending on my knowledge of the player probably accompanied by my laughing in his face and telling him to stop being a jerk). Giving a level 11 character free access to wishes is just wrong.
If necessary, I'd use the "ban a player from my table" or "I just decided to not GM" options.
And before people jump to conclusions, I've never had to actually do any of the above. I do NOT make a habit of banning things I don't like. But I'm not going to run a scenario for a player who has free access to multiple wishes
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Wish inherent bonus is lost. Tome bonus stays because you paid for the item.A slight clarification: The tome bonus stays if you paid for the item. This came from a previous clarification where a higher level module has a tome as a loot drop.What if you cast Wish and pay the 25k to get yourself an inherent bonus. How is that different from a tome?
25k of course being the material component cost.
In PFS you cant buy the spell till 17th level. Only up to 6th level ones are always available.
Thread necro to note:
Any time you're wish-binding, I strongly recommend using the rules from Legacy of Fire AP. I'd rule that all successful wish-binding requires the diplomacy/knowledge/charisma system in there.
My feelings: if they're hardcore enough to convince a genie to give a wish (with all the dangers that entails) and take the time to negotiate (it could take DAYS OR WEEKS) and pay them appropriately (often the cost calculation will EXCEED the material cost of the Wish spell)... why the hell not give them one?
Any treantmonk style curse/charm/whatever stuff will result in automatic cosmic wish badness.