There is no penalty. Even your strength is calculated normally.
Unless you use TWF to get an extra attack, there is no "off hand"
The only place in the rules where "off-hand" is mentioned is in the TWF section. Otherwise it doesn't matter if you wield a weapon right or left handed.
And the FAQ states that unless you get extra attacks, TWF does not apply.
Yeah, you don't really have an 'off hand' other than 'the hand holding the weapon which makes the second attack in a two weapon combat attack'. You can also change which one is primary and which one is secondary every time you attack. So if you have a +1 flaming and a +1 cold sword sword, you can attack one round with flaming/cold and then the next time with cold/flaming.
Also, if you get an attack of opportunity or other free attack, it is at your full bonus even if you did two weapon combat on your turn. The -2 penalty only lasts until the of the attack sequence, not until your next turn.
Look at it this way. Imagine instead of 1 hand weapons, ur using a 2 handed weapon. So when someone can attack twice due to +6/+1 they get to add 1.5 str to each attack. So someone who gets 2 attacks and uses a 1 handed weapon, gets the 1x str to each attack weither its the same weapon or a different one.
WHEN u are gaining ur extra attack thru twf then u add a .5 x str to that attack.
If the rules don't say the other hand does less damage then it does not. The only place it mentions an off-hand is for TWF because it is a special attack, making it a special case.
The FAQ says there is no penalty if you do not TWF.
The only time a penalty comes is when you use an off-hand attack.
So tell me how are you getting to an off-hand without TWF'ing?
Here's the question... Why do you want to attack in this way?
Different weapon type? If I have a longsword in one hand and a hammer in the other, and I'm fighting a creature like a skeleton with DR/bludgeoning, for example.
Than why have the longsword out? with a non zero BAB, you can draw while moving and I've always believed in having one hand free for unexpected contingencies.Different weapon type? If I have a longsword in one hand and a hammer in the other, and I'm fighting a creature like a skeleton with DR/bludgeoning, for example.
Here's the question... Why do you want to attack in this way?
Possibly because there are other opponents that I might want to use the longsword on, perhaps with an attack of opportunity. While I agree that preparing for unexpected contingencies is a good thing, one shouldn't neglect expected contingency planning either.
Thanks. I did not see anything specifically about the str mod not applying. It implies you can choose which hand is your primary and I have read threads where it is said the offhand does not exist unless you TWF, but I can’t find that rule either, do you know where this is spelled out.There is no penalty. Even your strength is calculated normally.
Unless you use TWF to get an extra attack, there is no "off hand"
Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?
Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
You decide round by round which weapon is primary and which weapon is off hand. You are only locked into that choice for that round. If you are only attacking with one weapon it is assumed you are designating it as your primary hand.
@Kazaan - I don’t know why you have to be insulting.
In the combat section of the rules under calculating damage (not some special TWF section) it says off-hand attacks do ½ strength damage, I put the entire quote in my last post. It does not say off-hand only exists for TWF, I don’t know why anyone would assume that, since most of us have off-hands and would assume if this departed from the actual definition that it would be mentioned. To say they can’t include 1 phrase in a 550 page rule book is ridiculous, in fact removing the off-hand damage calculation from the combat section would make the rules shorter and clearer. But see I’m getting pulled into the debate.
I don’t want to debate, I’m just wondering, does it say anywhere directly, off-hand only exists for TWF, everyone in pathfinder world is ambidextrous or better yet whichever hand, right or left, deals damage during a standard attack, you get the full damage bonus. It looks like this has been debated for years, I just thought maybe Pazio put out a couple sentences about it in a FAQ or newer rulebook that I was not aware of that I could show other people.
Sounds like the answer is no.
Well, the answer is "no, but..."
Every single TWF NPC has been written assuming the bonuses and penalties function the way we're telling you they do (though there's a case for "typically optimal conditions").
As one of the FAQs shows, a character can choose which weapon they attack with first. (Yes, the FAQ in question is regarding not actually TWFing with two weapons, but bear with me, here.) This is defined as the main-hand weapon, because TWFing grants "extra" attacks. A character has to choose whether to TWF with their very first attack (so that they take the penalties), and that very first attack is with the main hand weapon, and they can choose which weapon it is with, regardless of which hand (left or right) it's in.
Yes, the rule about off-hand damage says they only do +1/2 Str bonus to damage. The TWF rules say you can choose which weapon you attack with first. The Full-attack action requires that iterative attacks be done in order of highest to lowest. The attack with the off-hand weapon is an "extra" attack.
I have a sword and a mace. Which one is my off-hand weapon?
I have read all the FAQ and the rules sections you are talking about and hundreds of posts.
Where does it say “The "off hand" exists only whilst two weapon fighting.“
Where does it say “everyone in pathfinder world is ambidextrous”
The FAQ quoted says nothing about damage, only that iterative attacks don’t take TWF penalties, nothing about offhand damage penalty. The portion of the FAQ that talks about TWF does talk about damage. I don’t know what the FAW BBT posted is.
I’m TWF and have a defending weapon in my off-hand, when I take just a standard attack, I would use that hand to allow the defensive bonus to kick in. When I add my full strength bonus to damage the GM and others are going to ask me why. When I say “everyone in the pathfinder world is ambidextrous, and there is no off-hand unless TWF” they are going to laugh and ask where it says that, cause look it clearly says in the damage calc section of the rule book, “Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus.” When I say "that only applies to TWF", they will laugh again and say, "It doesn't say that". When I say, "well here read these 20 pages of posts and FAQ that make it clear that due to my invisible hands I get full damage, even though it never says it in plain English anywhere", they are going to laugh harder.
I don’t want to open this whole can of worms again, I’m just wondering, does it say anywhere directly, off hand only exists for TWF, everyone in pathfinder world is ambidextrous, or better yet, during a standard attack whichever hand you use deals full strength damage.
Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
First bleeding line in the FAQ answer. Reduced damage is certainly a penalty. The FAQ was explaining what happens when you fight with 2 weapons without taking an extra attack. In an answer that detailed somehow the fact that one weapon has reduced damage was never mentioned is either very telling or the design team is utterly incompetent.
@Thiles Targon
Another way of looking at this is, where in the rules does it say to decide or determine whether your character is left or right handed? Are there any rules for using skills with an off-hand? Or taking any other actions with an off-hand?
Yes the rules say the off-hand attacks get 0.5 strength on damage, but the only mention of when you make an off-hand attack is in the rules on doing TWF.
Now I understand where you are coming from, in the real world and under normal English rules we can understand that my right hand (me being left handed) would be my off hand. However there are no rules on Pathfinder to suggest on character creation a player should choose a handedness, nor a designation that the other hand is then the off hand.
Given then that TWF is the only place where it mentions what an off-hand attack is (the off-hand strength damage section doesn't define what an off-hand attack is), that is indeed the only place where we are making an off-hand attack.
Primary hand and off hand are not your left or right hand but an abstraction that represents the amount of effort you have available to apply to an attack. Your "primary hand" might be the hand holding your longsword, or it might be your foot equipped with a boot dagger, or your chin wielding whatever that weird beard weapon thing. Your "off hand" can either aid your primary hand, in the case of a two-handed weapon, or make extra attacks when two weapon fighting (or cast a spell if your using Spell Combat but that's another topic). If you are only making one attack, or you are only making the attacks granted by your BAB, you are assumed to be using your "primary hand" because there are no benefits to declaring a single attack as an "off hand" attack. That's why people say it only relates to two weapon fighting. That's basically the only time you benefit from your off hand, in the form of extra attacks. Characters are also assumed to be ambidextrous because the game makes no distinction between using your right or left hand. Also there was an Ambidextrous feat in 3rd addition that was folded into the Two Weapon Fighting feat for Pathfinder.
I’m TWF and have a defending weapon in my off-hand, when I take just a standard attack (normally after moving to engage), I would use that hand to allow the defensive bonus to kick in, but don’t want the lower hit chance in my more damaging hand during subsequent full attack actions.Here's the question... Why do you want to attack in this way?
This may have been answered before but I could not find it.I’m dual wielding, the first round of combat is frequently just a standard attack. If I choose to take that attack with my off-hand, is there a penalty (other than the lower str damage)? I’m not TWF, but I’m striking with my less talented hand.
That you can't help. The first weapon you use in two weapon fighting is your primary weapon, and the weapon you will make your iteratives with. the other weapon becomes your secondary for that combat phase.
When you make your first attack you DECIDE THEN AND THERE if you are in TWF mode or not.
You're not locked in for the full encounter, just that round.
Why would anyone find offense in being called a one year old?
If the rules don't say the other hand does less damage then it does not. The only place it mentions an off-hand is for TWF because it is a special attack, making it a special case.
The FAQ says there is no penalty if you do not TWF.
The only time a penalty comes is when you use an off-hand attack.
So tell me how are you getting to an off-hand without TWF'ing?
Not true in the section of the rules on how to calculate damage it says off-hand does 1/2 strength damage.
"Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies."
I'm not sure why someone reading the rules would conclude this is only for TWF. This is something I have seen repeated over and over "The only place it mentions an off-hand is for TWF" not true, unless you engage in a tautology, off-hand is for TWF only therefore the section of the rules that seem to apply to all combat only apply to TWF because they mention off-hand which is only for TWF. In fact in my case, I keep getting told to look at the TWF section, which I have, but why would I, I’m not TWF, so I look at the damage section.
The FAQ says you take none of the to-hit penalties for TWF when you are not TWF. It is silent on damage, unless there is a FAQ I'm missing. If you read the damage section is seems to clearly say there is a damage penalty for off-hand attacks, not for TWF, for off-hand attacks, therefore the damage penalty should apply when taking an iterative attack with the off-hand.
I think many if not most people reading the rules would conclude, off-hands do 1/2 strength damage whenever you attack with them (cause that is what it says in the damage section). If you use TWF there are to-hit penalties that can be overcome by feats. You also only do 1/2 strength damage with the extra attacks, because you use your off-hand, not because you are TWF.
You seem to be asking me why someone would come to...
If you are correct then why don't the rules tell you how to determine which hand is the off-hand when it is not your turn?
edit: If you are disagreeing then you are debating. Now I understand you are not doing it for yourself so maybe you should have the non-beleivers post for themselves.
The rules have been this way for at least 10 years now.
Thiles,
Ultimately what it boils down to is that you're telling us you're wielding a defending weapon in your off-hand and you'd like to attack with that weapon to benefit from the defending property.
What we're asking is how do you know that the defending weapon is being wielded in your off-hand? The underlying issue you're asking about is handedness. Where in the rules does it say a character has to choose to be right or left-handed?
The rules don't come out and say what you're asking them to say, so I'm trying to walk you through how they actually do answer your questions, anyway. If you typically fight with the defending weapon in your left hand and as an off-hand, what happens if you switch the weapons around and carry it in your right hand? Do you believe that your defending weapon cannot now be an off-hand weapon because it is being wielded in your right hand instead of the left one? If that is the case, what rules language are you basing it on? Is there a step in the character creation process where you choose which hand is dominant?
If you only draw one weapon and it happens to be your defending weapon, does the damage that weapon applies depend upon which hand you're wielding that weapon with? If not, then why should it matter if you happen to have two weapons in your hand and only strike with one? If so, then where in the rules does it say you have to pick which of your character's hands is dominant?
And more directly, since the FAQ demonstrates examples of legal weapon combinations that interchange which weapon can be the primary weapon, that should also help you explain it to anyone with questions.
If the question is "Why are you applying full STR to that weapon in your off-hand?" The answer really is "I'm not two-weapon fighting, so it's not an off-hand attack".
For reference, D&D 3.0 did have an ambidexterity feat. In that version of the rules, handedness mattered. It was removed in 3.5 because it's just another feat tax and makes things unnecessarily complicated.
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To expand on what The Shamrock said in the last paragraph, the reason why the language about off-hand says what it says where it says it is due to the fact that it is a carryover from 3.5, which itself is a carryover from 3.0.
In 3.0, you had to designate a primary hand and an off-hand. Any attacks made with the off-hand, even if you were not TWF had the off-hand penalties. In 3.5, they did away with the handedness designation and did away with the ambidexterity feat (essentially, the ambidexterity feat did away with the handedness requirement and allowed either hand to get full STR) and declared that everyone was ambidexterous. The language didn't change except than now the only time you would ever have an off-hand designation is if you were TWF. And the PF directly ported the language.
So, that's a very rough background as to why things are worded the way they are in that quote you keep quoting.
@Thiles Targon
Did you see THIS POST above? What in it doesn't work for the players at your table. I ask, so we can help enlighten. Not to be sarcastic.
You are still confusing primary and off hand with your left or right hand. Which is understandable and a not uncommon occurrence. If you read page 141 if the CRB you will notice the section that mentions primary or off hand is actually dealing with effort and not appendages. Their is no section dealing with whether your character is right or left handed, just as there is no section dealing with going to the bathroom while on an adventure. It is not relevant to the game. I understand you want it written more explicitly and don't feel it would take up too much room in a five pound book but if they had to clarify and reclairfy every nuance, the book would quickly become unwieldy. The authors do expect some critical thinking when figuring out the rules. When an area of the rules is still unclear they issue errata to clean up the language or an FAQ to clarify a complicated topic. They also have a forum dedicated to rules questions and a knowledgeable community that loves to help (and to crack the occasional joke). Not every thread will get a Dev response or a rewrite of the CRB. (Not intended to be mean)
(As an aside, if you want people to stop posting in your thread, then quit telling them they're wrong.)
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Basically, the "off-hand" is a type of attack that occurs during two-weapon fighting.
It isn't even a hand.
You can even make an off-hand attack, whilst two-weapon fighting, that doesn't even use a hand.
That's right, no hands.
In fact, both weapons used during two-weapon fighting do not have to be made using a hand.
So, it doesn't matter if you use your left hand, right hand, or no hands at all, the designation of "off-hand" only comes into play, whilst two-weapon fighting, and you choose a weapon as your "primary" weapon, and another as your "off-hand" weapon.
That's it.
At no other time, is any attack considered an "off-hand" attack.
Isn't that off-topic?
Rules of the Game are articles written by the developer of 3.5 to explain in detail the intent behind the rules.
Off Hand, Off-Hand Weapon: , the character must designate one of his hands as his off hand; the weapon held in that hand is treated as his off-hand weapon. The game rules don’t really care about whether you’re right-handed or left-handed, and it’s even OK to change your off hand designation from one round to the next.Attacks with the off hand take a -4 penalty on the attack roll (see page 311 in the Player's Handbook) and only half the character’s Strength bonus (rounded down) applies to damage from the attack. Fighting with a weapon in each hand brings even bigger penalties.
When a character fights with a weapon in each hand, the weapon held in the off hand is called the off-hand weapon.
Primary Hand, Primary Weapon: If a character is only attacking with a single weapon, it’s fine to treat that as a primary weapon, regardless of what hand it’s held in. When a character fights with two weapons, he can designate either one as his primary weapon.
Attacks with the primary hand gain the character's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Attacks with a primary weapon in a two-weapon attack take a penalty on the attack roll because attacking with two weapons at once proves very tricky.
Note that it says "when attacking with two weapons you must designate an off-hand. When you are making a standard attack you are only attacking with one weapon, even if you are hold two weapons. Note that the primary hand comment says that a weapon can be the primary weapon no matter what hand it is in.
Now of course someone will say 3.5 is not PF so let's look at the wording of the rules.
The word "off-hand" appears ONCE outside of the TWF section, but only to let you know how to apply damage with it in the DAMAGE section. The only time the rules brings it into the game as something you have to deal with is in the TWF section.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies
Off-Hand Weapon
When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only ½ your Strength bonus.
Looks pretty similar to me, and I see no rule saying you gain an off-hand when not using TWF.
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Also look pretty similar to me.
edit:The devs for PF also worked with 3.5 so it is not like some random guys off the street just tried to take over, and for the most part the core rules were just copied and pasted. If the words are the same the meaning is the same unless a PF dev specifically says otherwise.