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In Ethiopian sacred art, which has a formal ecclesiastical foundation going back over a millennia, they usually depict Jesus with dark skin and other classic/stereotypical African facial features.
the washing of the disciples feet
Just sayin'
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Are there any Irish/German/Cherokee hybrid gods? >_>There are no Irish-equivalent people at all, and we have no idea about the Cherokee-equivalents over in Arcadia. So not really.
But I still suspect Cayden Cailean has your back. At least based on my Irish/German friends anyway...
Actually, according to Wes Schneider there WAS an Irish equivalent people: the Kellids of Sarkoris. Ostensibly those few survivors in the Worldwound and the descendants of refugees that fled to Mendev would be pretty Irish-like.
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I tend to portray Varisians as either German, Austrian or Sinta Roma (Gypsy), which ends up making the Szcarni a little bit odd when they're flexing their mafia vibe.
Varisians are pretty much Roma/Travellers. If you're looking for a Prussian (I assume that's what you mean by 'German') feel, Molthune is the closest you get, militaristic and orderly and all.
By the way, Roma organised crime makes Mafia look like a bunch of outdated, fat, senile gentlemen form a bygone era. You're just lucky they never really expanded into 'Murica. The moment I saw the "gypsy gangster" vibe in Varisia I felt riiight at home.
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Mendevians tend to use plaids as clan badges, so being irish/Scottish is indeed right in line.
==Aelryinth
I like to think that with the exception of those few ascended mortals who became gods, the majority of gods don't have a specific true form. As such, their depiction in art, statues, and altars (as well as manifestations to their worshipers) reflects the local ethnicity (or even species).
This is legit enough as far as it goes, but it seems to me that non-(ascended)human gods likely dealt with one specific human ethnicity in their first interactions with human worshippers, and this ethno-cultural form is the one with the most heritage.
Other ethnic cultures MAY reconfigure their representation to match themselves (or not even themselves, but some other esteemed, or even denigrated, ethnicity), but there would tend to be some "baggage" carried over from original worshippers, and the original "form" (ethnic reference) seems plausible to carry over or be "re-transmitted" in at least SOME other worshipping communities... It seems more likely than not that even if some "new" worshipping communities have their own representation, they will more often than not be aware of the older, original representation/heritage, assuming there is any real-world linkage/transmission of said religion (i.e. vs. re-appearing with no communication/awareness between said communities).
So certainly in gameworld reference material, the original ethnocultural reference would make sense to be the one used when portraying the god "in general", even if that doesn't preclude the god having other forms worshipped within various contexts, some of which may well "deny" the "standard" represenation...
I do look forward to those mistakes being fixed as Erik Mona indicated, as well as new ascended gods of the more sparsely represented ethnicities, as well as non-humanoid gods of no human ethnicity that play important roles in different human ethnic cultures.
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Where does it say what the gods' skin color is?
Different artists will picture gods differently, its not like the gods sit down for a portrait.
So the people in the Mwangi Expanse probably picture gods very differently from how the people on Northern Astivan picture the very same gods.
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They've also said that it's a problem with the artists. Paizo is generally good at seeing past that "white = default" sort of thing, but the fantasy artists they commission from aren't always. That's why it took until Mummy's Mask to get an elf/half-elf darker than tan.
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I don't recall seeing any evil black gods or devils/demons either.
As for divinity, Old Man Jutumbi (sp?) is at least a demi-god.
Beyond the white-skin = good, black-skin = evil ? There is a villain in Legacy of Fire.
Jatembi is a wizard, often associated with evil outsiders.
African religions have a really bad reputation in USA (as far as i know), so i coundn´t really blame Paizo for not taking risks.
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JATEMBI IS THE BEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSST!!!!
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Jatembi is also the founder of the only NG order of wizards that can use druidic magic, and of the oldest school of magic in the game.
He roxors.
==Aelryinth
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Here're some great (to me) depictions of the Orishas (with brief notes on inter-relationships & areas of concern) - 20 in all:
Yoruba African Orishas by James C. Lewis
Carry on!
--C.
Wow! Those are just amazing.
That pantheon will definitely be available for worship in my campaign from now on.
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They've also said that it's a problem with the artists. Paizo is generally good at seeing past that "white = default" sort of thing, but the fantasy artists they commission from aren't always. That's why it took until Mummy's Mask to get an elf/half-elf darker than tan.How could that be? don't paizo specify how they paizo want the art?
It's actually a combination of factors, from what I can tell.
It seems that, for many, its actually relatively difficult to get non-monstrous non-beautiful people to be created in art, just as it's difficult to get "non-white" ethnicities.
There are a lot of reasons for why this might be, and no solid "AHA!" explanations, but partially exposure (via media), partially cultural pressure (again, via media, but also prejudiced* views), partially due to subtle cues within creation.
For Paizo, these difficulties in art are made quite potent:
- So, they ask for something, but don't get it quite like they were hoping for. Maybe the artist didn't understand, or, in the process of creation, just went a different direction due to lack of discipline (a real problem with many with artistic bent**) or inspiration, or just because they got confused or distracted while creating something.
- Paizo finds out it's imperfect, and now have to make choices: do they re-order it (costing time and money) or send it back (meaning they don't have a piece of art) or go with what they have?
Basically, this just takes time. Time that they don't always have.
And an artist getting something a "off" from the office vision ordered is hardly a reason to burn bridges - if the art was good quality, that artist is likely to be tapped again, even if it wasn't exactly what the company had requested.
Beyond that, Paizo often gives some details, but not too many - presumably being overly-specific has led to problems in the past, though I'm much less certain of that one.
I, for one, am glad they're getting in good, varied art now. Its nice to see.
The company itself is quite progressive in many ways to embrace as many people as possible from all walks of life and styles: Sajan, Kyra-and-Merisiel, Alahazra, Seelah, and Shardra are all proof of this in their own way.
They have a few more things they can do, but they're making great strides, and their art is something they're explicitly working on.
* This isn't the correct word. I don't know the correct word right now. I blame having a fever. "Biased" maybe? The point is, people see in art something more akin to what they, personally, consider "standard", whatever that is. Hence a lot of folk see "anime" as representing white people... when to the Japanese it represents... Japanese...
** Wayne Reynolds is a notable exception. Note that this is not "all" or even "most" just "many" - I make this statement based off of witnessed and discussed things, rather than a scientific statement, so take such a claim with a grain of salt.
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It is amusing that when cartoons/comics are made by Orientals, the skin hue we normally consider 'white' here in the West is Oriental, and Caucasians are often drawn pale white to pinkish, where Westerners draw Orientals more orange/yellow/brownish in hue.
==Aelryinth
They've also said that it's a problem with the artists. Paizo is generally good at seeing past that "white = default" sort of thing, but the fantasy artists they commission from aren't always. That's why it took until Mummy's Mask to get an elf/half-elf darker than tan.
Ummm, Skull and Shackles would like to disagree with you.
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The problem is that the book themselves seldom show ethnic african divine beings, as if there was a hidden code that black people can´t be good gods or angels.
Pretty sure that the iconic paladin is black....
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They've also said that it's a problem with the artists. Paizo is generally good at seeing past that "white = default" sort of thing, but the fantasy artists they commission from aren't always. That's why it took until Mummy's Mask to get an elf/half-elf darker than tan.Ummm, Skull and Shackles would like to disagree with you.
Was there one in Skull & Shackles? It's been a while since I've read that Path. Which book were they in?
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They've also said that it's a problem with the artists. Paizo is generally good at seeing past that "white = default" sort of thing, but the fantasy artists they commission from aren't always. That's why it took until Mummy's Mask to get an elf/half-elf darker than tan.How could that be? don't paizo specify how they paizo want the art?It's actually a combination of factors, from what I can tell.
It seems that, for many, its actually relatively difficult to get non-monstrous non-beautiful people to be created in art, just as it's difficult to get "non-white" ethnicities.
There are a lot of reasons for why this might be, and no solid "AHA!" explanations, but partially exposure (via media), partially cultural pressure (again, via media, but also prejudiced* views), partially due to subtle cues within creation.
For Paizo, these difficulties in art are made quite potent:
- So, they ask for something, but don't get it quite like they were hoping for. Maybe the artist didn't understand, or, in the process of creation, just went a different direction due to lack of discipline (a real problem with many with artistic bent**) or inspiration, or just because they got confused or distracted while creating something.
- Paizo finds out it's imperfect, and now have to make choices: do they re-order it (costing time and money) or send it back (meaning they don't have a piece of art) or go with what they have?Basically, this just takes time. Time that they don't always have.
And an artist getting something a "off" from the office vision ordered is hardly a reason to burn bridges - if the art was good quality, that artist is likely to be tapped again, even if it wasn't exactly what the company had requested.
Beyond that, Paizo often gives some details, but not too many - presumably being overly-specific has led to problems in the past, though I'm much less certain of that one.
I, for one, am glad they're getting in good, varied...
I come from a visual arts background, and getting it right is hard but not impossible.
I'm not impressed with a lot of fantasy art, even when artists do get the skin tone of characters of different ethnicities right, they usually fall back on stereotyping and archetypes. Especially in the era of google images and transferable digital art.
The knowledge of anatomy of most modern fantasy artists is especially bad.
Eva Wildermann's artwork based on the mythology of indigenous Canadians was particularly good (Jade Regent) and Wayne Reynolds early work helped Pathfinder find its own visual cue, although the bulk of fantasy art is going downhill in recent times I'm afraid.
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The problem is that the book themselves seldom show ethnic african divine beings, as if there was a hidden code that black people can´t be good gods or angels.
There aren't any African's living in Golarion, but I get what you mean.
Golarion does mirror our 'real' world in a lot of ways. And I'm pretty sure Paizo wants to do a respectful treatment of an African-influenced pantheon.
I remember a comment by James Jacobs about a large amount of resources that went into Dragon Empires, to get a respectful and diverse influence of asian culture and history.
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There aren't any African's living in Golarion, but I get what you mean.
Golarion does mirror our 'real' world in a lot of ways. And I'm pretty sure Paizo wants to do a respectful treatment of an African-influenced pantheon.
I remember a comment by James Jacobs about a large amount of resources that went into Dragon Empires, to get a respectful and diverse influence of asian culture and history.
Also the Mwangi Expanse, like Chult in the Forgotten Realms, isn't much larger than a single Europe-analogue *country* in the Inner Seas region, compared to real world Africa vs. real world Europe.
Presumably, if/when we get a Southern Garund Gazetteer, detailing the nations south of Geb and Sargava, where the vast bulk of 'fantasy Africa' would lie, instead of a single jungle somewhat larger than the River Kingdoms (and more of a wild adventure location than any sort of actual 'country' like Cheliax or Taldor), there will be a much more representative focus on African-esque themes and deities and nations and cultures.
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I come from a visual arts background, and getting it right is hard but not impossible.
I'm not impressed with a lot of fantasy art, even when artists do get the skin tone of characters of different ethnicities right, they usually fall back on stereotyping and archetypes. Especially in the era of google images and transferable digital art.
The knowledge of anatomy of most modern fantasy artists is especially bad.
Eva Wildermann's artwork based on the mythology of indigenous Canadians was particularly good (Jade Regent) and Wayne Reynolds early work helped Pathfinder find its own visual cue, although the bulk of fantasy art is going downhill in recent times I'm afraid.
As I said, my understanding is not built out of one, single comment Paizo has made, but rather large numbers of small comments - either Paizo in individual instances*, or in various other places around the internet that suffer from similar issues from time to time.
Wayne has been excellent, and I really respect his thread. Similarly, everything I've seen of Jade Regent is brilliant, but I've avoided looking too much, because I might be a player.
* They have literally stated that they've gone with "wrong" imagery because of time. Most notably one place in Council of Thieves (if I recall correctly), and the cover of the last part of Carrion Crown. I think this has come up at other times as well, but these are the only two I more solidly "remember", and the CoT one I'm not entirely sure of.
The problem is that the book themselves seldom show ethnic african divine beings, as if there was a hidden code that black people can´t be good gods or angels.There aren't any African's living in Golarion, but I get what you mean.
Golarion does mirror our 'real' world in a lot of ways. And I'm pretty sure Paizo wants to do a respectful treatment of an African-influenced pantheon.
I remember a comment by James Jacobs about a large amount of resources that went into Dragon Empires, to get a respectful and diverse influence of asian culture and history.
Yes. They've actively gone on record about these things. This is one reason I love the company.
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Council of Thieves is kind of a train-wreck art-wise (among other things). One NPC has totally different art between books, for example - TL was correct in his remembering.
And the Carrion Crown thing was even worse, somehow. It really screwed up that guy. We still don't have art for what he should have been.
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Up until Jade Regent, the artwork was sometimes... inconsistent, some worse then others, however they've done a phenomenal job recognizing it and correcting it, and still they have the single best art department in the history of RPGs, Sarah Robinson and her whole crew deserve to be in a hall of fame somewhere.
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I'm not sure if I prefer the current "mainstreamed, streamlined, harmonic" art direction of Paizo or the "anything goes WHEEEEE!" hit and miss direction of the early days.
And I'm still jaded about all those Murican traditionalists booing out manga-styled art. Arnold Tsang, YOU WILL BE REMEMBERED.
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I am actually very partial to the art style of the 3.5 APs, especially Second Darkness. That's probably my favorite era of Pathfinder art, for the most part. ^_^
Kingmaker's art was... appropriate. It felt very dirty and backwoods.
I think the same artists worked on Serpent's Skull and Council of Thieves - I didn't care for it.
Carrion Crown's art was pretty hit-or-miss too, as I recall.
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I'm not sure if I prefer the current "mainstreamed, streamlined, harmonic" art direction of Paizo or the "anything goes WHEEEEE!" hit and miss direction of the early days.
And I'm still jaded about all those Murican traditionalists booing out manga-styled art. Arnold Tsang, YOU WILL BE REMEMBERED.
Yes, there is too much 'simulacrum' of Wayne Reynold's art, while lacking his artwork's stronger characteristics.
Eva Wildermann's artistic style slides into Pathfinder visual canon comfortably, while still maintaining her own artistic sensibilities as an artist.
Consistency is always a good thing, repetition is certainly not.
The art in Pathfinder Unchained did the job well enough, but it wasn't very inspiring.
If anything they need to lift their game.
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The action artwork in Carrion Crown was f&+*ing awesome!
carrion crown artwork spoilers
but yes some of the NPCs and bestiary artwork was... not their best:-)
still hands down better then what was around even 15 years ago
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The action artwork in Carrion Crown was f$~%ing awesome!
carrion crown artwork spoilers ** spoiler omitted **but yes some of the NPCs and bestiary artwork was... not their best:-)
still hands down better then what was around even 15 years ago
Those ones were pretty good, especially the Book 5 one. I couldn't get past whoever did the really cartoonish ones - the beheaded and the oozes fighting Seltyiel, for example.
The psychopomps were good though - I was actually disappointed in the new art in Bestiary 4.
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partially due to subtle cues within creation.
Uh, wow, what a terrible word choice. Re-reading my post, I saw this and immediately face-palmed. Just in case the context wasn't clear, I meant within the creation process, i.e. the types of things that artists do to create new images.
Yeesh, that part of the sentence looks bad, to me, though. Sorry, all.
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The problem is that the book themselves seldom show ethnic african divine beings, as if there was a hidden code that black people can´t be good gods or angels.Pretty sure that the iconic paladin is black....
That the iconic paladin is a black woman that follow a white goddess, can say lot about the situation, but she is still a mortal. I wanted to see a true divine holy beign that have a face of "african" people.
Like the orishas from the earlier link. There was a really missed chance in Gozreh not looking black ...| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The entire egyptian pantheon is Golarion canon. Admittedly, most of them have animal heads, but I think they still qualify.
The dominant religions of the Mwangi expanse are Angazhan, Gozreh, Lamashtu, and Ydersius,which are all barely even classifiable as humanoid, let alone of any particular human racial background.
Personally, I've always pictured Serenrae having Mediterranean or Arabic features. The source material describes her as having bronze skin, which sounds Mediterranean to me. Or maybe the actual metal. It isn't clear in the official artwork because she's usually on fire.
To answer the OP's original question, I'd say Osirus qualifies.
Egyptians don't qualify as black?
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Was there one in Skull & Shackles? It's been a while since I've read that Path. Which book were they in?They've also said that it's a problem with the artists. Paizo is generally good at seeing past that "white = default" sort of thing, but the fantasy artists they commission from aren't always. That's why it took until Mummy's Mask to get an elf/half-elf darker than tan.Ummm, Skull and Shackles would like to disagree with you.
That the iconic paladin is a black woman that follow a white goddess, can say lot about the situation, but she is still a mortal. I wanted to see a true divine holy beign that have a face of "african" people.
Like the orishas from the earlier link. There was a really missed chance in Gozreh not looking black ...
There have been plenty of reasons already stated, for this.
Astivan is white, so their gods are white.
Outside of the Ascended, gods don't have actual ethnicities.
Norgorber's ethnicity is as shrouded as he is.
The big picture is this: The gods of Golarion as you are referring to are not the only gods of Golarion, just the gods of the Inner Sea. They are mostly white because the Inner Sea is mostly white.
The gods of the Dragon Empires are not white, they are Tein.
The gods of Vudra are not white, they are Vudran.
The gods you are looking for would be Gods of Garund.
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It's not a simple issue that's binary is nature (black or white), How allegorical is the Pathfinder campaign setting supposed to be?
Do we ban Amiri because she goes against the ideas promoted in contemporary feminist theory?
Do we hold Paizo responsible for such actions? And what do we do about it?
Do we bombard their twitter accounts like critically minded feminists did to Joss Whedon during Avengers 2?
Paizo is just a role-playing game publisher not justice's hand for all of the world's woes. They do have a policy of inclusion not exclusion, and they do that admirably, although they do have to cater to the interests of a broad range of people, and make products that sell.
Not everyone views Pathfinder as a vehicle for social progression, and its fine that people do, but I think the history of D&D/Pathfinder and its community is strong enough to have many versions of the Pathfinder game.
Create some african gods and submit them to a 3PP publisher, accountability starts at home, rather than always expecting other people to do it for you.
Edit: I have studied post-colonial theory while at university, and queer theory, my senior lecturer, Adam Geczy wrote a book about it, so I have some idea how complex the issue is. It's not an easy fix and can be divisive even among people within the same community. Paizo are doing their best in the often turbulent socio-political climate we exist in.
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Was there one in Skull & Shackles? It's been a while since I've read that Path. Which book were they in?They've also said that it's a problem with the artists. Paizo is generally good at seeing past that "white = default" sort of thing, but the fantasy artists they commission from aren't always. That's why it took until Mummy's Mask to get an elf/half-elf darker than tan.Ummm, Skull and Shackles would like to disagree with you.** spoiler omitted **
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It's not a simple issue that's binary is nature (black or white), How allegorical is the Pathfinder campaign setting supposed to be?
Do we ban Amiri because she goes against the ideas promoted in contemporary feminist theory?
Do we hold Paizo responsible for such actions? And what do we do about it?
Do we bombard their twitter accounts like critically minded feminists did to Joss Whedon during Avengers 2?
Paizo is just a role-playing game publisher not justice's hand for all of the world's woes. They do have a policy of inclusion not exclusion, and they do that admirably, although they do have to cater to the interests of a broad range of people, and make products that sell.
Not everyone views Pathfinder as a vehicle for social progression, and its fine that people do, but I think the history of D&D/Pathfinder and its community is strong enough to have many versions of the Pathfinder game.
Create some african gods and submit them to a 3PP publisher, accountability starts at home, rather than always expecting other people to do it for you.
Edit: I have studied post-colonial theory while at university, and queer theory, my senior lecturer, Adam Geczy wrote a book about it, so I have some idea how complex the issue is. It's not an easy fix and can be divisive even among people within the same community. Paizo are doing their best in the often turbulent socio-political climate we exist in.
No offense meant. ^_^
It's not a simple issue that's binary is nature (black or white), How allegorical is the Pathfinder campaign setting supposed to be?
Do we ban Amiri because she goes against the ideas promoted in contemporary feminist theory?
Do we hold Paizo responsible for such actions? And what do we do about it?
Do we bombard their twitter accounts like critically minded feminists did to Joss Whedon during Avengers 2?
Paizo is just a role-playing game publisher not justice's hand for all of the world's woes. They do have a policy of inclusion not exclusion, and they do that admirably, although they do have to cater to the interests of a broad range of people, and make products that sell.
Not everyone views Pathfinder as a vehicle for social progression, and its fine that people do, but I think the history of D&D/Pathfinder and its community is strong enough to have many versions of the Pathfinder game.
Create some african gods and submit them to a 3PP publisher, accountability starts at home, rather than always expecting other people to do it for you.
Edit: I have studied post-colonial theory while at university, and queer theory, my senior lecturer, Adam Geczy wrote a book about it, so I have some idea how complex the issue is. It's not an easy fix and can be divisive even among people within the same community. Paizo are doing their best in the often turbulent socio-political climate we exist in.
No offense meant. ^_^
Yes, that's the official PR line, (I did read some of the comments on Whedon's twitter account and they were very aggressive and sometimes inflammatory), Kalindlara what's your view on it?
p.s I wasn't targeting militant feminists just used it as an example. As it's a high profile case.
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I'm still absolutely baffled how people took offense to Black Widow from that movie. I'm usually at least somewhat cognizant of how a person can take offense to something.
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It's not a simple issue that's binary is nature (black or white), How allegorical is the Pathfinder campaign setting supposed to be?
Do we ban Amiri because she goes against the ideas promoted in contemporary feminist theory?
Do we hold Paizo responsible for such actions? And what do we do about it?
Do we bombard their twitter accounts like critically minded feminists did to Joss Whedon during Avengers 2?
Paizo is just a role-playing game publisher not justice's hand for all of the world's woes. They do have a policy of inclusion not exclusion, and they do that admirably, although they do have to cater to the interests of a broad range of people, and make products that sell.
Not everyone views Pathfinder as a vehicle for social progression, and its fine that people do, but I think the history of D&D/Pathfinder and its community is strong enough to have many versions of the Pathfinder game.
Create some african gods and submit them to a 3PP publisher, accountability starts at home, rather than always expecting other people to do it for you.
Edit: I have studied post-colonial theory while at university, and queer theory, my senior lecturer, Adam Geczy wrote a book about it, so I have some idea how complex the issue is. It's not an easy fix and can be divisive even among people within the same community. Paizo are doing their best in the often turbulent socio-political climate we exist in.
So, what you are saying is that Paizo don´t want money from black people ? I am ok with that.