Are there any Black gods (especially good ones) in Pathfinder?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Theros Ironfeld wasn't included much in the novels as they had to trim over half of them, but he was a blacksmith that was forced into slavery after loosing his arm. It was through his dedication and mastery of hard work and the later acquisition of the Silver Arm of Ergoth that allowed to recreate the Dragonlances and present them in the time of greatest need.

Depending on your point of view, Tanis can be either a representation of bisexuality, caught between two very different worlds and not fully accepted by either, or the more common half breed. In the first, Laurana is the more feminine aspect while Kitiara is the masculine, and it also plays a great deal into how his character is least of all understood even by his closest friends. More of a read-between-the-lines case than an explicit one, as the character as presented is not bisexual.

There is also something to Tas being gay. Again, it's more read-between-the-lines, but there are a lot of comments like "when are you going to find a good Kender (Halfling) woman and settle down, start a family,. . ." and his reply is something like "I've tried. I just, well, I can't really related to other Kender anymore." The given connotation is that he has grown up, but it could also very easily be suggesting he doesn't have any attraction to females.

For the Christian part, Tracy Hickman is a devout Mormon (I believe), and he and other have included a lot of aspects in there, some as easter eggs and others as parables. For example, the Platinum Discs of Mishakal (that hold the greatest gift for mankind) is an allusion to the Joseph Smith's Golden Plates. Paladine is often presented as a carring father that wants mortals to make the right choices on their own, there are more than a few miraculous curings of the "get up and walk" style.

Both Gilthanus' and Silvara's as well as Huma's and Gwyneth are tales of interracial relationships, (as well as the more upfront Tanis and Laurana), and there is also something to be said for Raistlin being a metaphor for transgender.

Theros, I'll give you, though I don't remember him.

For the other stuff - there are half-elves (and half-orcs) throughout D&D (and thus PF) from the beginning who could play the metaphorical role you describe. Similarly for the others - you can read things into the characters if you choose to, that may or may not have been intended. In terms of inclusiveness, there's a big difference between that and actually including open non-analogy characters.

And yeah, as xavier c said, nearly every fantasy setting includes Christian references at that level.


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You can attribute all sorts of readings .. especially "read between the lines" readings .. to many books and songs and art and .. well, you get the point.

There are entire sites on the 'net where people debate these sorts of things, and while they make for a fun read they are on the level of conspiracy theories for the most part. If it is what you took from the piece of work, then that is your (or their) interpretation. That doesn't mean that the books are more inclusive because Bilbo was seen as a metaphor by someone of working through our racial problems, or whatever.


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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
thejeff wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Morzadian wrote:
Earlier versions of D&D like Greyhawk has black gods (Touv pantheon) but has far less inclusion than Pathfinder, as Pathfinder has positive black characters, like Quinn the Investigator iconic.

Huh???

Pathfinder is very far from inclusive. They might be more inclusive in some specific cases, namely gender and orientation, that's also about it in. But even for just those two, they are pretty far behind the curve, (considering thing like the WoD, oddly Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and many other similar settings). Don't get me wrong, they do a pretty good job in that sense, but there are a lot of groups out there that Pathfinder/Paizo have not touched or outright decided they will not.

I'm sure there are lots of groups Paizo hasn't touched and maybe even some they've declared they won't touch, but "far from inclusive" and "pretty far behind the curve" are very strong statements and I'll need some evidence. At least examples so I know what you're talking about.

Well, if you count yourself as an "internet expert" than WoD basically goes without saying. So, lets just look at Dragonalance.

Dragonlance, in much the same way as the X-Men movie are an analogy for homosexuality, is an analogy for, well inclusion. It has a multitude of very important characters, ranging from black to white to asian to "green" and "purple". It presented strong and independent women, and men, and a broad range of motivations and personalities. Unlike Pathfinder, it didn't shriek in fear at including everyone, so there are things like Judeo-Christianity in there, or atheism, native americans, blacks, interracialism, heroes (and villains) of all sorts.

And the fact that it's over 30 years old says something. It also says a lot that Dragonlance's war cry I "We need each other to stand strong" while Pathfinders is more along the lines of "OH, pick me, I have a _____ as an Iconic. See how progressive I am. I must be the first one to do it."...

You are way of base,

X-Men is allegorical but is not an analogy for gay inclusion it's about the McCarthyism era of politics. I have seen it interpreted as such (gay inclusion) and it relates to their civil rights plight yet it wasn't part of their original design.

Dragonlance was aimed at adolescent readers and didn't have the maturity to deal with any issues with a level of seriousness. Yes they had some Native American characters in it but that's about it, their actual culture and perspective was sadly missing.

The whole Tanis relationship thing is closer related to Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet than exploring interracial couples.

In ROTRL, Sheriff Belor Hemlock is an indigenous character (Shoanti) who has risen up to a position of authority in a mostly Varisian town. And any GM can use Hemlock to explore a whole bunch of issues ranging from tradition to racism if they want.

Same with the Jade Regent adventure path and the designers decision to include Inuit people (indigenous Canadians) and their mythology, even got Eva Wildermann who worked on the Inuit project to do the artwork, awesome artwork by the way.

Pathfinder is what you make of it, and there is plenty of diversity that lets you write a whole range of stories.

Shadow Lodge

I say read-between-the-lines because these are arguments and discussions I've heard from others, rather than something I'm trying to prove.

As far as I know the only reference to Christianity, and please note this is just one of multiple things I pointed out as lacking in PF, is an obscure reference in Artifacts and Legends. Oddly enough, its extremely vague and literally read-between-the-lines. :P

Silver Crusade

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I think most marginalized groups will see themselves in series like the X-men. I've always seen it more as representation of ASD and Neurodiversity, but that's because that's where I come from.

As for Pathfinder having taken lots of stuff from Christian lore and myth. Yes it does, but it also takes from all sorts of stories and myths, it picks from lores all over the world. And there's lots of stuff for them to still ad. They haven't done an African-focused Bestiary yet either, but there's a richness of monsters from African Lore. I'm sure that they'll eventually do it, but they're taking their time because they want to do it right and respectfully.


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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I say read-between-the-lines because these are arguments and discussions I've heard from others, rather than something I'm trying to prove.

As far as I know the only reference to Christianity, and please note this is just one of multiple things I pointed out as lacking in PF, is an obscure reference in Artifacts and Legends. Oddly enough, its extremely vague and literally read-between-the-lines. :P

Where does the word avatar originate from? And if you know the answer you will realise from the very beginning D&D was not created within a Judeo-Christian framework.

Although Gygax introduced Pholtus and Theocracy of the Pale, so GM's could create stories within such a framework.

Dark Archive

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Kalindlara wrote:

Ten. Ten Magic Warriors. Not twelve.

...Sorry. ^_^

Yeah, I just noticed that, many hours too late to edit my own reply, which ran with the 12. Eh. Maybe there were twelve magic warriors, but two of them got drummed out for being prats, and now history only remembers the other ten. :)

Something to add to the Conspiracies of Golarion thread, perhaps.

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Set wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

Ten. Ten Magic Warriors. Not twelve.

...Sorry. ^_^

Yeah, I just noticed that, many hours too late to edit my own reply, which ran with the 12. Eh. Maybe there were twelve magic warriors, but two of them got drummed out for being prats, and now history only remembers the other ten. :)

Something to add to the Conspiracies of Golarion thread, perhaps.

Something similar happened with #10, actually. That's why we have a Ring of Nine Facets. ^_^

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
xavier c wrote:
You do know that mormonism is not Christianity right?

That's what a lot of Protestants say about Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, because neither of them use the King James Bible. Heck that's quite quite a few Protestant cliques that say that about each other these days.

On what basis do you make that statement? You do know that it's proper name is the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints? Even Islam has an important place for Jesus Christ in the line of Prophets that ends with Mohammed. That the Mormons hold the standard Christian theology that of Christ's death as Redemption for the Human Race in total? So what exactly makes them non-Christians in your mind?

And those differences between Catholicism and the non-Catholic Christians? Important enough that the history of Europe was littered with centuries of bloody warfare over the difference, warfare which continued into my time. In fact it was with all that warfare in mine that the Founders very deliberately put in the establishment clause against a state religion in America's charter.

Shadow Lodge

Morzadian wrote:
You are way of base,

I don't believe I am off base at all. In my opinion, and that's all any of this thread are, Paizo/Pathfinder/Golarion are not nearly as inclusive as they are given credit for, and there is a lot of room for improvement, which threads like this one prove.

Paizo has went out of it's way to include more women and non-heterosexual individuals in their products, (which I'm simply saying is not new or unique to them, or even a modern phenomenon/improvement), and has also went out of their way to include individuals that are not white, (something that in my experience is also not new or unique to them). What I am NOT SAYING I that those are bad, just not enough to win them the inclusiveness reward. I also think that along those lines, including a lot more women and LGBT's as monsters, villains, and enemies is something that PF has not done, (well, outside of setting history or epic plot-level npcs). It's a single step. And there are a lot of groups that are not represented. I named a few off the top of my head and everyone seemed to focus on the Christian one only, which I think is kind of funny (ironic) as there have now been at least three separate products that have connected Golarion to Earth). There is/was another thread a few months back asking where the Mexican's where, and the answer was basically, they aren't.

And while, yes, I understand that I can insert or alter the setting as I need, well, that's not really helpful and something I can do for literally any game or setting.

xavier c wrote:
You do know that mormonism is not Christianity right?
LazarX wrote:
On what basis do you make that statement?

I agree, let's not go there. The question of if it is or is not a form of Christianity is irrelevant. We could just as easily change the original statement to read "does not include groups like classic Christian Mormon heroes. . .", which is more on point to the discussion, and trying to argue that Mormonism is or is not is not only extremely off topic within this context, but just asking for a fight.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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LazarX wrote:
You really can't count Rary The Traitor and the members of the Circle, Tensor, and Otiluke that he offed. So it's more like the Circle of Five now.

Actually, Tenser is officially back in canon. They had a whole module about you going to one of Oerth's moons and confronting the Type IV demon that used to be Dahlver-Nar and bringing back his last clone.

Not sure on Otiluke, but nobody's going to miss him anyways. The Lady on the circle still brings the Greyhawk Guild into their sphere of influence, and the Circle is still the highest level circle of mages working together in the Flaness. And a Wish can bring back him and Otto regardless. One Efreet Called in, thank you, on to the next. (Seriously, the way some of the writers handle access to high level magic is stupefying at times. That whole scenario where one guy with the Hand of Vecna kills ALL of them except Mordenkainen?!?)

Rary's 'treachery' has, I believe, been ascribed to the undue influence of the Scorpion Crown, and he has been returned to his TN roots.

==Aelryinth


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LazarX wrote:
xavier c wrote:
You do know that mormonism is not Christianity right?

That's what a lot of Protestants say about Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, because neither of them use the King James Bible. Heck that's quite quite a few Protestant cliques that say that about each other these days.

On what basis do you make that statement? You do know that it's proper name is the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints? Even Islam has an important place for Jesus Christ in the line of Prophets that ends with Mohammed. That the Mormons hold the standard Christian theology that of Christ's death as Redemption for the Human Race in total? So what exactly makes them non-Christians in your mind?

And those differences between Catholicism and the non-Catholic Christians? Important enough that the history of Europe was littered with centuries of bloody warfare over the difference, warfare which continued into my time. In fact it was with all that warfare in mine that the Founders very deliberately put in the establishment clause against a state religion in America's charter.

A Comparison Between Christian Doctrine and Mormon Doctrine There are major theological core differences between Mormonism and Christian Doctrine.

There are no major theological core differences between Catholics and Protestants besides these
"Differences Between Catholics and Protestants"

As for the warfare in Europe was basically Catholic Church teaches that priest and the pope are infallible.(basically Catholics want control and Protestants want freedom). google Martin Luther for info on how that all got started.

differences between Christian and Islam Doctrine.

jesus in Christianity.

Sovereign Court

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Please do not do this. I would rather this thread stay unlocked.


Kalindlara wrote:
Please do not do this. I would rather this thread stay unlocked.

He ask a question i was just trying answer it.

But very well. I will say no more.


?!?!

This thread seems to have... strayed from what it was when it started...

<sigh>

--C.

Silver Crusade

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Psiphyre wrote:

?!?!

This thread seems to have... strayed from what it was when it started...

<sigh>

--C.

Yeah that sorta stuff happens.

And on the comment about the lack of non-white-male villains. You do realize if there are minority baddies then they could be also accused of being racist.


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Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
And on the comment about the lack of non-white-male villains. You do realize if there are minority baddies then they could be also accused of being racist.

Plus, there have been - A lesbian queen. A black (Garundi) pirate captain. A witch queen. Those come to mind immediately, just from the few APs I'm familiar with. I suspect there have been others.


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hard for me to take the comment about the lack of LGBT villains, when one of the most iconic villains in Pathfinder is Queen Ileosa.


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LazarX wrote:
xavier c wrote:
You do know that mormonism is not Christianity right?
That's what a lot of Protestants say about Catholicism,

As an aside, as a Protestant* who is married to a Catholic, there are quite a number of Catholics who virulently deny being "Christian" - there's even a slogan, "Catholic, not Christian"**.

I make this statement with full acknowledgement that the Catholic Church is, by definition, Christian, in the sense that Christ is their acknowledged Head, and there are also many Catholics who do consider themselves Christian.

* by technicality; not part of that Movement's direct group, but close enough to be lumped together as a non-Catholic, non-Orthodoxy.

** to the point that one church in our neighborhood put it not only on their sign! but had little hand-made signs they could use to, uh, "demonstrate" I guess? I dunno, they do weird things there sometimes. Not the first place I've heard this, though.

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:/


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Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Can we please leave the comparative religion tangent?

It's boring and irrelevant.


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DM Beckett wrote:
Morzadian wrote:
You are way of base,

I don't believe I am off base at all. In my opinion, and that's all any of this thread are, Paizo/Pathfinder/Golarion are not nearly as inclusive as they are given credit for, and there is a lot of room for improvement, which threads like this one prove.

Paizo has went out of it's way to include more women and non-heterosexual individuals in their products, (which I'm simply saying is not new or unique to them, or even a modern phenomenon/improvement), and has also went out of their way to include individuals that are not white, (something that in my experience is also not new or unique to them). What I am NOT SAYING I that those are bad, just not enough to win them the inclusiveness reward. I also think that along those lines, including a lot more women and LGBT's as monsters, villains, and enemies is something that PF has not done, (well, outside of setting history or epic plot-level npcs). It's a single step. And there are a lot of groups that are not represented. I named a few off the top of my head and everyone seemed to focus on the Christian one only, which I think is kind of funny (ironic) as there have now been at least three separate products that have connected Golarion to Earth). There is/was another thread a few months back asking where the Mexican's where, and the answer was basically, they aren't.

And while, yes, I understand that I can insert or alter the setting as I need, well, that's not really helpful and something I can do for literally any game or setting.

xavier c wrote:
You do know that mormonism is not Christianity right?
LazarX wrote:
On what basis do you make that statement?
I agree, let's not go there. The question of if it is or is not a form of Christianity is irrelevant. We could just as easily change the original statement to read "does not include groups like classic Christian Mormon heroes. . .", which is more on point to the discussion, and trying to argue that Mormonism is or is...

It's a roleplaying game based in a fantasy world.

If I want to create a campaign setting that doesn't include white people, just say a Persian influenced setting would that make my setting bad or a failure in some way or worst still racist or prejudice.

Of course not.

A friend of mine who is of Syrian heritage does not like Zadim the Slayer iconic, not one little bit. Finds it a little bit offensive.

Players connect to specific characters or stories for a whole bunch of reasons not necessarily even based on gender, race or sexual orientation.

I have a Thai/Latvian/Ukrainian heritage, and the Pathfinder game hasn't failed me if my heritage and culture is not represented. Although I do tend to play outsider characters like half-orc fighters and monks from far away lands.

Edit: As long as there is diversity in characters and the type of stories that can be told then Pathfinder is heading in the right direction, make the game too allegorical and it will divide role-playing culture and ultimately the industry.

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I agree, we need a Catholic gay antipaladin villain in an upcoming AP. Preferably a kobold.


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The thing about representation is it's contextual and relative. In itself, not including some minorities is not bad. The problem is that minorities get excluded a lot, even when it's not historically accurate. Looking at the big picture, there is definitely a problem with representation.

Sovereign Court

Ahem, Nethys is half black. It's obvious if you check out the artwork.

Grand Lodge

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Kysune wrote:
Ahem, Nethys is half black. It's obvious if you check out the artwork.

"It's obvious to the most simple-minded that Lokai is of an inferior breed."

"What I see Commissioner, is that he is of the same species as yourself."

"Lokai is white on the right side. All of his people are white on the right side."

Sovereign Court

I want a deity that's a purple dinosaur! Make it happen Paizo!

Community Manager

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Let's return this thread to the original topic, please.


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thejeff wrote:
A black (Garundi) pirate captain.

Dragonlance did it decades ago. ;)

Though I'm still not sure where the asians are in Dragonlance, I vaguely remember some mongol types in the other continent boxed set but nothing in the novels or modules.

And I don't recall any of their gods being portrayed directly as black either, although they had each culture picturing the gods appearing as themselves.


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Voadam wrote:
thejeff wrote:
A black (Garundi) pirate captain.

Dragonlance did it decades ago. ;)

Though I'm still not sure where the asians are in Dragonlance, I vaguely remember some mongol types in the other continent boxed set but nothing in the novels or modules.

And I don't recall any of their gods being portrayed directly as black either, although they had each culture picturing the gods appearing as themselves.

Yes, I'm sure they did.

But that specific post was in response to a complaint that Paizo lacked minority villains. Nothing to do with Dragonlance or Paizo being the first and only to have minority villains.
She also seems to be a pirate, but not actually a villain.

But that's OK. We've already learned that Dragonlance is the bestest, most inclusivest setting ever. Putting all of Paizo's efforts to shame even decades later. :)
Despite all the heroes of the main storylines being basic white fantasy types, except for the rather generic Native American pastiche.

Grand Lodge

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thejeff wrote:
Voadam wrote:
thejeff wrote:
A black (Garundi) pirate captain.

Dragonlance did it decades ago. ;)

Though I'm still not sure where the asians are in Dragonlance, I vaguely remember some mongol types in the other continent boxed set but nothing in the novels or modules.

And I don't recall any of their gods being portrayed directly as black either, although they had each culture picturing the gods appearing as themselves.

Yes, I'm sure they did.

But that specific post was in response to a complaint that Paizo lacked minority villains. Nothing to do with Dragonlance or Paizo being the first and only to have minority villains.
She also seems to be a pirate, but not actually a villain.

But that's OK. We've already learned that Dragonlance is the bestest, most inclusivest setting ever. Putting all of Paizo's efforts to shame even decades later. :)
Despite all the heroes of the main storylines being basic white fantasy types, except for the rather generic Native American pastiche.

Hmm.. those characters were more like Whites putting on redface... and pretty badly at it too.


LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Voadam wrote:
thejeff wrote:
A black (Garundi) pirate captain.

Dragonlance did it decades ago. ;)

Though I'm still not sure where the asians are in Dragonlance, I vaguely remember some mongol types in the other continent boxed set but nothing in the novels or modules.

And I don't recall any of their gods being portrayed directly as black either, although they had each culture picturing the gods appearing as themselves.

Yes, I'm sure they did.

But that specific post was in response to a complaint that Paizo lacked minority villains. Nothing to do with Dragonlance or Paizo being the first and only to have minority villains.
She also seems to be a pirate, but not actually a villain.

But that's OK. We've already learned that Dragonlance is the bestest, most inclusivest setting ever. Putting all of Paizo's efforts to shame even decades later. :)
Despite all the heroes of the main storylines being basic white fantasy types, except for the rather generic Native American pastiche.

Hmm.. those characters were more like Whites putting on redface... and pretty badly at it too.

It's been a long time since I've read or played any of those, so I wasn't going to be that harsh.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
LazarX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Voadam wrote:
thejeff wrote:
A black (Garundi) pirate captain.

Dragonlance did it decades ago. ;)

Though I'm still not sure where the asians are in Dragonlance, I vaguely remember some mongol types in the other continent boxed set but nothing in the novels or modules.

And I don't recall any of their gods being portrayed directly as black either, although they had each culture picturing the gods appearing as themselves.

Yes, I'm sure they did.

But that specific post was in response to a complaint that Paizo lacked minority villains. Nothing to do with Dragonlance or Paizo being the first and only to have minority villains.
She also seems to be a pirate, but not actually a villain.

But that's OK. We've already learned that Dragonlance is the bestest, most inclusivest setting ever. Putting all of Paizo's efforts to shame even decades later. :)
Despite all the heroes of the main storylines being basic white fantasy types, except for the rather generic Native American pastiche.

Hmm.. those characters were more like Whites putting on redface... and pretty badly at it too.
It's been a long time since I've read or played any of those, so I wasn't going to be that harsh.

I had the occasion to rewatch the animated movie recently.


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I'm reasonably certain that does not, in any way, represent the original stories.


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Tacticslion wrote:
I'm reasonably certain that does not, in any way, represent the original stories.

Sure it does. Just extremely poorly.

Such missed potential with Kiefer Sutherland as Raistlin.


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Okay: fair enough. :)

(Also: true.)


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What! Seriously! I was baked (baked!) When I rented it and I still couldn't make it more then 10 minutes in without shutting it off, do you know how sad a fantasy film has to be that a stoned person can't watch it :-)


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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

I say read-between-the-lines because these are arguments and discussions I've heard from others, rather than something I'm trying to prove.

As far as I know the only reference to Christianity, and please note this is just one of multiple things I pointed out as lacking in PF, is an obscure reference in Artifacts and Legends. Oddly enough, its extremely vague and literally read-between-the-lines. :P

If you are going to read between lines and say that Dragonlance has a gay character that has never been portrayed as gay because he never got married, you can go and read between the lines and say that Golarion has gay characters never portrayed as gays too. Or, you know, you could go and say that Golarion has gay characters because it actually has characters that are gay, both openly or as a secret.


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Dragonlance was created 30 years ago, different times my friend :-)

Try again tho :-)


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captain yesterday wrote:

Dragonlance was created 30 years ago, different times my friend :-)

Try again tho :-)

Fine, I'm not going to judge Dragonlance as non-inclusive or non-LGBT friendly because it was made 30 years ago in a different context. However, claiming that it was MORE inclusive than Golarion, based on "read-between-the-lines" arguments of a kender being gay because he wasn't married (which may, or may not, be a real metaphor of a gay character) is weird, when you have several gay characters in different APs, from villains like Queen Illeosa, to helpful NPCs like the ones in Sandpoint or Trunau from Giantslayer.

The rest of the argument is similar: Dragonlance had characters from other ethnic groups, like Silvermoon, but there are also shoanti characters in Golarions, and some of the icons are non-white (like the paladin). There were women in positions of power in Dragonlance, like Kitiara, but there are also in golarion, from the Queen of Cheliax to Queen Illeaosa, to Baba Yaga and her daughters, not to mention several icons.

So while it's possible to argue that Dragonlance pioneered some inclusiveness in a much difficult era for it, I find that arguing it's more inclusive than current Golarion using those arguments is... playing Devil's Advocate ;)

That said, Erik Mona himself has said in this very thread that Paizo hasn't been as diligent as they could, and more inclusiveness is needed. I'm ok with asking for it, or criticisize them if needed. Just disagree with Dragonlance being more inclusive because someone reads between lines that Tanis is a secret metaphor of bisexuality or whatever.

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Erik Mona wrote:

To be perfectly honest there are not enough of them in the setting right now, and the ones that ought to have Garundi features ended up a goth woman with white hair, a fey-looking white dude with half a face, and a nature spirit with a pretty inhuman form.

Honestly, this has a lot to do with the pantheon and the campaign setting being designed concurrently, so the gods had largely taken form before the ethnicities of the campaign setting began to gel.

When we get around to detailing the rest of Garund we will have more of an opportunity to address this issue, but for now we don't have a lot of great options for what you are looking for.

That being said, I can easily see the folk of Thuvia imagining Abadar as a dark-skinned Garundi, and so on, so there is always that somewhat unsatisfying tactic to fall back on before we address the issue in print.

Erik, why not include Garundi gods and goddesses like you did for Osirion when you do the Southern Garund Gazetter?

Also, the Osirion Pantheon could be included as Garundi with Osirion like features other than the animal heads.


Flynn Greywalker wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

To be perfectly honest there are not enough of them in the setting right now, and the ones that ought to have Garundi features ended up a goth woman with white hair, a fey-looking white dude with half a face, and a nature spirit with a pretty inhuman form.

Honestly, this has a lot to do with the pantheon and the campaign setting being designed concurrently, so the gods had largely taken form before the ethnicities of the campaign setting began to gel.

When we get around to detailing the rest of Garund we will have more of an opportunity to address this issue, but for now we don't have a lot of great options for what you are looking for.

That being said, I can easily see the folk of Thuvia imagining Abadar as a dark-skinned Garundi, and so on, so there is always that somewhat unsatisfying tactic to fall back on before we address the issue in print.

Erik, why not include Garundi gods and goddesses like you did for Osirion when you do the Southern Garund Gazetter?

Also, the Osirion Pantheon could be included as Garundi with Osirion like features other than the animal heads.

Osirion and Garundi are completely different cultures. With Osirion being influenced by Ancient Egypt and Garund being influenced by a mixture of real world cultures like Iran, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Ethiopia.

Do deities need to look like the people that worship them? The Eqyptian god Anubis has a Jackal head.

Grand Lodge

The Black Pharoah is a thing in Golarion? If not, it should be.

Liberty's Edge

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Helaman wrote:
The Black Pharoah is a thing in Golarion? If not, it should be.

It is...but Nyarlathotep really doesn't qualify as a Good deity.


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Nyarlathotep is most likely influenced by the writings of H.P Lovecraft (a favourite author of Paizo designers) rather than Egyptian or African sources.

In Cthulhu Mythology Nyarlathotep is also known as the 'god of a thousand forms' kind of fits in with Pathfinder's description "is one of the Outer Gods of the Dark Tapestry who takes on thousands of forms."


Morzadian wrote:
Nyarlathotep is most likely influenced by the writings of H.P Lovecraft (a favourite author of Paizo designers) rather than Egyptian or African sources.

I should hope so, as Nyarlathotep did not exist in any Egyptian or African primary sources, or in any form prior to the early 20th century. That's rather like saying "Bilbo Baggins is most likely influenced by the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien..."


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Morzadian wrote:
Nyarlathotep is most likely influenced by the writings of H.P Lovecraft (a favourite author of Paizo designers) rather than Egyptian or African sources.
I should hope so, as Nyarlathotep did not exist in any Egyptian or African primary sources, or in any form prior to the early 20th century. That's rather like saying "Bilbo Baggins is most likely influenced by the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien..."

But if you haven't read Lovecraft you could be mistaken about Nyarlathotep's origins. 'Hotep' is Egyptian and one of the forms he takes is a black pharaoh.

Grand Lodge

So not a good black god but a black one nonetheless


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Nyarlathotep has many forms with the black pharaoh being one of them, the 'black pharaoh' is kind of like a polymorphed form than a true representation of a deity.

Although you could treat it as such.

I agree with Draco Bahamut and others that Golarion is in need of a black pantheon (Mwangi and Garund) as well as chaotic/lawful/good/evil outsiders, which is related to such a pantheon.

Nethys (Nethys can send a white woman as a herald?) and the 'black pharaoh' are not the best examples on how there are black gods in Golarion, Mwangi and Garund have been under-represented in relation to religion in Golarion.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

They changed the Arcanotheign's art in Inner Sea Gods. Less... white-womany (if a lot more generic). ^_^

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