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Cool man, thanks a lot for explaining that part of the process. It really is a pretty lame excuse though,Lots of excellent points raised here. As has been mentioned, the Lashunta's gender dimorphism is a call-back to 30s planetary romance races in books like Robert E. Howard's Almuric (which we republished in our Planet Stories imprint) and similar works by Ray Cummings and Ralph Milne Farley. I think it's fair to criticize those ideas as playing into a heterosexual male power fantasy, but then again a lot of the underpinnings of the game can probably be criticized on those grounds. In any event, it's just one race out of a thousand, and I think there's room for all kinds of ideas along the edges. As an example it definitely plays into the narrative you've inferred, but in isolation I am personally able to be ok with this one as an homage, even if your criticisms are valid.
The reason there is no art for "ugly" male Lashunta can be attributed to the way we budget for books before all of the text is in. There's generally budget for one illustration per monster or race, so unless someone is on top of their game and makes an adjustment, it's easy for "alternate views" and things to never get generated. I don't think that's a particularly good excuse, but it is an example of how banal some of the reasons behind the trends you've outlined can be.
Edit:
Mandatory thanks followed by instant brushoff. Jerkish.....
My am I not surprised the OP is a male.
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xeose4, may I ask you first of all what all this have to do with white people?
certain races are designed purely for the benefit of straight, white, male gamersWhat purpose does their attractive-to-straight-white-males beauty/body type serve?I don't see how any of this would not be equally attractive to straight males of any other ethnicity. To me that former sentence immediately set off my alarm bells, and I went into reading this as just another "social justice warrior"-tirade about how straight white men are so privileged and push their sexist and racist ideals on everyone. And as a straight white male myself I have to say I feel immediately antagonized.
+1
Frankly, every time I see the "straight white male" I tend to have my eyes glaze over and ignore the posts. There are a lot of good ideas in the OP's posts, mind you. I could just use less about how straight white males have ruined the world, the rogue, and made fighter's sub-optimal. Also, the whole "this perpetrates the same dumb..." A rule of thumb I've found that works over the years is that calling someone else's ideas dumb tends to cause problems in conversation.
Anyway, as far as love interests or romantic subplots in APS go ... doesn't anyone else modifier material for their individual games? I mean, one of my groups is filled with mostly females -- with straight, lesbian and bi sharing a fairly equal percentage -- and I alter things more for their likes and dislikes than what might be in the adventure. The written word is the starting point for us, not the end.
So yeah, have more eye candy for everyone, that's fine.
The rest .. eh. We've had conversations that there are a vocal group that would love to see less romantic subplots taking away from killing and looting, and a lot of people that want to see more straight/bi/lesbian/trans*/asexual relationships, I'm foreseeing a long argument about how there aren't enough platonic friendships or something going on. An exaggeration, perhaps, but not by much. Some of the lifting is going to have to be on the side of the GMs and players IMO rather than expecting the design teams and writers to include every perceivable variation on relationships.
xeose4,
Thanks for this; I haven’t got around to Wrath of the Righteous yet, though it’s on my list, and I find the sorts of general issues you’re raising interesting. I’ll just add a few comments about points I found particularly intriguing. As a disclaimer, I’m writing this off the top of my head, since I don’t feel like leafing through several books more or less at once, so I may get a few details wrong about canonical succubi and incubi, for example. Also, I’m taking your main argument about how male NPCs and monsters aren’t presented as sexy in nearly the same ways that female ones are, even when they’re of types that are both supposed to work in more or less the same way, such as by sneaky seduction or as sexual objects, as read; I’m mainly expanding some side points, spoilered for length.
How particular shapechangers “work,” as it were, might well factor into how we view these things. Do they identify or have a “true form” like humans (or elves or dwarves or…) do? Do they differentiate between spell-like and supernatural abilities? After all, there’s nothing to suggest that humanoid characters using alter self to cross sex/gender boundaries have their core identities (as women or men or however they identify) challenged. We could bring back the system shock / trauma rules and apply them to all [polymorph] spells (even if they’re just being used to really be a bit taller, for example!), but that wouldn’t really be fun for most people.
I do like your idea about trans* succubi and incubi. Of course, that gets a bit tricky if succubi are, by definition, what someone might want or be tempted to call female (at least, more than they’re not, given the shapeshifting, and I think the Bestiary refers to them as demonic women), and mutatis mutandis for incubi, formed out of lustful souls with particular sex and gender identities. That is, if succubi and incubi are different species, and have true forms that largely correspond to humanoid cis female and male, could we have two mono-sexed species in which gender would be viewed differently from how it is by humans, further complicating and expanding the range of trans* identities?
The catch is, I’m not sure any of this is how it works in Pathfinder. I’m not sure that demons necessarily form out of individual souls, as opposed to suitably twisted larvae, which could conceivably be sex- and genderless. Maybe all it takes for a succubus to form is one or more lustful souls from lustful individuals of any gender, with no impact on the new-born demon. On the other hand, the Abyss is a horrible enough place that I can imagine it occasionally putting a soul (or screaming fragments of souls) in a body that’s inappropriately sexed and gendered for it (them), out of spite.
Now, given all these considerations, I would be interested in seeing the range of trans* identities for lust demons worked out in-setting, but that’s because I’m a gender studies geek. The easiest way to handle it might be to think, in real-world terms, of an FtM lust demon as a trans incubus (to use your example), and ignore the differences between succubi and incubi, as well as the possibilities outlined above. That would bring succubi and incubi closer together, although not to the traditional(?) point that unprefixed they’re the cis genders for lust demons, or even the sexed forms of a single type of naturally sexless demons. Unfortunately, as you point out, published adventures tend to default to “hawt” succubi and any interesting gender issues drop away.
If there was a bit more range among species like the lashunta, I wouldn’t mind them so much, and even then I think it would really help to flesh out their cultures. Interplanetary romance is a staple of some forms of space opera, but if it’s not going to turn out as both risible and obnoxious sexual fantasy, surely there are some (apparently not-so-) obvious considerations to bear in mind. In the example below, I use human as a placeholder.
OK, fine, love knows no borders, and a human can probably find a space alien who could love them. However, that doesn’t mean that alien will be all starry-eyed as if they never had eyes for folks of their own species, unless the poor thing was truly unfortunate, pining away until the narrative gods plunked the human down on their planet. There is no guarantee they will be a princess, “the PCs are the heroes” or no, and in that case the situation will be exacerbated if royal relationships are at all culturally significant; if it matters who the Queen of All Planet X is married to, they will certainly have considered who they might want to, and their idea of the perfect suitor could probably be met within the species. Across lines of social class, people (and the love interest!) would talk: about their past history, about what makes the human so special (we hope, if it’s not a fling!), about their hopes for the future, including family… Of course, one could imagine a truly integrated galactic society in which culture and magic (and creative fiat) make some of these a non-issue, but if there are a disproportionate number of humans visibly involved with conventionally-attractive-by-human-standards aliens, one might be suspicious. (Squints fiercely and across genres in the direction of the Mass Effect games. :) )
Of course, though, these aren’t things that an Adventure Path is really suited to address, beyond suggestions like “their closest past relationships were with people from their own city,” “their family is xenophobic,” “they want to continue the royal tradition of passing on an inheritance from parent to their own born children,” and so on, to give the GM some ideas. After all, the campaign marches on. I suppose we could ask for more setting material, something like “Lashunta of Castrovel,” but I’m not sure how well that would work. In the meantime, the messageboards here are often thought-provoking and fun. I was delighted to find a quibble about lashunta in the “Homosexuality in Golarion” thread that touched on how gender might be viewed across species in Pathfinder, so it’s nice to see that there are other people that think about the representations of sexuality and gender in Pathfinder and their implications.
Cool man, thanks a lot for explaining that part of the process. It really is a pretty lame excuse though,Lots of excellent points raised here. As has been mentioned, the Lashunta's gender dimorphism is a call-back to 30s planetary romance races in books like Robert E. Howard's Almuric (which we republished in our Planet Stories imprint) and similar works by Ray Cummings and Ralph Milne Farley. I think it's fair to criticize those ideas as playing into a heterosexual male power fantasy, but then again a lot of the underpinnings of the game can probably be criticized on those grounds. In any event, it's just one race out of a thousand, and I think there's room for all kinds of ideas along the edges. As an example it definitely plays into the narrative you've inferred, but in isolation I am personally able to be ok with this one as an homage, even if your criticisms are valid.
The reason there is no art for "ugly" male Lashunta can be attributed to the way we budget for books before all of the text is in. There's generally budget for one illustration per monster or race, so unless someone is on top of their game and makes an adjustment, it's easy for "alternate views" and things to never get generated. I don't think that's a particularly good excuse, but it is an example of how banal some of the reasons behind the trends you've outlined can be.
Mandatory thanks followed by instant brushoff. The word Jerk comes to mind.
....My am I not surprised the OP is a male.
Reading comprehension would indicate that A) perhaps my thanks was genuine and B) that I was perhaps agreeing with his "but that's a pretty banal reason" comment, which were his words, not mine, and C) The exact same thing about "thanks followed by brush-off" could be said about his post of "well we're done with demons, so oh well too late I guess" too, so...
I dunno, between the snide remark, the personal attack, and the lack of anything regarding the content of the thread itself, the word "Jerk" comes my own mind when I read your post as well.
Frankly, every time I see the "straight white male" I tend to have my eyes glaze over and ignore the posts. There are a lot of good ideas in the OP's posts, mind you. I could just use less about how straight white males have ruined the world, the rogue, and made fighter's sub-optimal. Also, the whole "this perpetrates the same dumb..." A rule of thumb I've found that works over the years is that calling someone else's ideas dumb tends to cause problems in conversation.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't be tossing criticisms about other peoples' ideas so freely. It's very aggravating to have one's voice consistently ignored by a dominant group, but that still isn't a reason to lash out like that. So I'm sorry, I really am, for saying some things are stupid when what I really meant was "This frustrates and disappoints me."
The term "straight white male" isn't an attack on straight, white males, just to be clear. You benefit from the fact that people like you, with your interests, just naturally create product and material that appeals to you; you don't have to raise awareness or make talking points about what you want to see (most of the time, at least). That's not to say you don't suffer, or get irritated, or that your experience is somehow invalid in any way! It's just the way the world is, and you're not better or worse, and shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it, and to imply that "Straight white dudes made my game/experience terrible" isn't what I mean to convey in any way. "Please stop gearing material so predominantly towards straight white men while ignoring the messages that run counter to the professed goal of inclusiveness" doesn't blame the straight, white male audience members for the decisions of the company. I mean, I'm sorry that you've had some bad experiences with social justice warriors, I really am! I've had them too, and I don't want to think that my own posts get read that way.
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Cool man, thanks a lot for explaining that part of the process. It really is a pretty lame excuse though,Lots of excellent points raised here. As has been mentioned, the Lashunta's gender dimorphism is a call-back to 30s planetary romance races in books like Robert E. Howard's Almuric (which we republished in our Planet Stories imprint) and similar works by Ray Cummings and Ralph Milne Farley. I think it's fair to criticize those ideas as playing into a heterosexual male power fantasy, but then again a lot of the underpinnings of the game can probably be criticized on those grounds. In any event, it's just one race out of a thousand, and I think there's room for all kinds of ideas along the edges. As an example it definitely plays into the narrative you've inferred, but in isolation I am personally able to be ok with this one as an homage, even if your criticisms are valid.
The reason there is no art for "ugly" male Lashunta can be attributed to the way we budget for books before all of the text is in. There's generally budget for one illustration per monster or race, so unless someone is on top of their game and makes an adjustment, it's easy for "alternate views" and things to never get generated. I don't think that's a particularly good excuse, but it is an example of how banal some of the reasons behind the trends you've outlined can be.
Mandatory thanks followed by instant brushoff. The word Jerk comes to mind.
....My am I not surprised the OP is a male.
Reading comprehension would indicate that A) perhaps my thanks was genuine and B) that I was perhaps agreeing with his "but that's a pretty banal reason" comment, which were his words, not mine, and C) The exact same thing about "thanks followed by brush-off" could be said about his post of "well we're done with demons, so oh well too late I guess" too, so...
I dunno, between the snide remark, the personal attack, and the lack of anything regarding the...
Two wrongs don't make one right.
As for personal attacks, I suggest you reread tour posts.If you can't prove your points without hyperboles and implying that Erik (and Paizo) was dishonest then I conclude you do what I see straight males do again and again : try to prove you are cool and aware by proving others are not.
I’ll leave you an edited quote by SKR from another thread
[…]
What do you hope to accomplish with this sort of thread?
Do you think Paizo is going to change its art style because "someone" was offended? Paizo, probably THE most progressive company in the game industry, is run by a woman, its senior art director is a woman, and has at least two woman on staff who are unafraid to give their opinions on whether or not they think something is sexist. All down the line we have female employees who make their art preferences known and have clout about those preferences, and you see the end result in the published art, which some people think is too risqué or sexualized.
Once or twice a year a "Paizo's art is too sexist/sexy" discussion pops up. Some boardspeople are concerned about the art, other boardspeople start to feel outraged about the art, other boardspeople point out that they are perfectly comfortable with the art, and in the end, the overall art style doesn't change. Perhaps Paizo likes this art style and is going to stick with it, and if that means a few people stop buying books, Paizo is okay with that.
In other words, do you think this discussion is going to change Paizo's stance on this issue? Is changing Paizo's stance the goal? To me, it looks like we have nearly four pages in this thread about a topic that the actual anonymous OP didn't bother to start a new thread about (I don't recall that person identifying themselves in this thread, so I don't know if they decided to join in the discussion [EDIT: maybe that's Lord Snow?]).
I get the "I am a customer and I want my feelings to be known" aspect of it (or, in this case, "this other person is a customer and I think their feelings should be known"), but do you think it'll accomplish anything? I can write to McDonald's or Chipotle and tell them I think eating meat is unethical, but they're not going to stop serving meat just for me. I can write to JRRM or HBO and tell them I won't read or watch A Game of Thrones because all the rape in it makes me uncomfortable, but they're not going to stop including that stuff in the books and show just because of me. And because there are other books I can choose read, and other shows I can choose to watch.
[…]
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zark have I mentioned how cool you are by proving how wrong xeose is :P
on a serious note (and more on topic) I would like to point out (as a early poster also said I think) that I do not believe that anything is preventing the GM from changing a character's sex/ name/ etc and pulling up a image from the interweb to better suite the group. Also maybe the solution to this is not to have romance in the story period leaving it to gm to do such things.. that way I can drink brandy and murderhobo in peace.
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Two wrongs don't make one right.
As for personal attacks, I suggest you reread tour posts.
If you can't prove your points without hyperboles and implying that Erik (and Paizo) was dishonest then I conclude you do what I see straight males do again and again : try to prove you are cool and aware by proving others are not.I’ll leave you an edited quote by SKR from another thread
I tried pretty hard to limit my hyperbole, actually. The sheer bulk of evidence I cite throughout all my posts should make that clear. Do some reading and look up what I mention if you don't believe it.
Additionally, try reading my posts with an open mind instead of a closed one. You'll see multiple points where I write that I love Paizo, that I think it's a fantastic company, and that I am loyal for life. You'll also see multiple points where I state my explicit goal, in no unclear terms: it is equivalence. Here's an analogy for you:
There is a picnic. The people hosting the picnic serve a great, amazing, absolutely delightful 4-course meal that satisfies everyone. Then they give Team A pie. It's a nice pie, and as someone who can participate in Team A alongside Team B, I can tell that it is a nice pie and appreciate it a lot.
Team B does not get pie. They don't get any pie at all. They keep coming though, and it's nice. Eventually, someone on Team B is like "You know, I'd like some pie too! Sure we get stuff that sometimes looks like pie, but we really don't get pie!"
They're told "Sorry, but a couple people from Team A don't like to see people from Team B eating pie. They might get offended if we offered you pie."
This leaves people from Team B feeling left out. They don't understand why an unfair system is perpetuated like that. "Well, could you maybe stop serving pie? And just serve another course altogether?" they ask, but that question goes unanswered.
After making a weird comment about assuming I'm "like any straight guy" that... I honestly do not know how to read, given my stated non-straight sexuality and complete coolness with straight stuff, so that's either that's meant as an insult or you're very confused about what I'm arguing for. Anyways, you quote a post talking about how progressive Paizo is; however, I've stated that I am a Paizo fan because of how progressive they are. Your quoted post defends the company: I agree, they're worthy, admirable people that are just fantastic. That is why I'm writing this post, because I think they're capable of doing better than they are now. It's not the art that I want changed. I don't care if they draw Nocticula in open sex acts with Sarenrae. I do not care. Whatever they gotta put on the covers, if that bit of T and A is what parts people from their money and gives Paizo additional funds to keep making more product, fantastic.
My beef is when that the sexual objectification of women in this products is not accompanied in any way, shape, or form by similar sexual objectification of men. I'll say that again, to be clear: I do not care about the art. There is reason and purpose to it being sexy. I'm NOT for sexual censorship. What I is almost purely text-based, accompanied by a slight improvement of the existing male art that already gets ordered and included in these paths.
1) When getting male art, get stuff that places them on a similar level to the multitude of nude (Urgotha), scantily clad (any of the female monsters I've listed at any point throughout the thread), sexualized (countless, but I'll cite Nocticula for now) art that exists regarding female creatures now. This art is stuff that's already made. You don't have to give up literally ANYTHING in order for me to get it. Nothing. You lose nothing at all. I am merely asking for a tiny bit of quality control here.
2) Don't write female monsters as sexually subservient to men. I've already explained how any of the creatures listed are fantasy fodder for male gaze. Again, you lose literally nothing, were this change instituted for me, and people who hold my same view. You can still sexualize whatever you want, however you want, however you need to for your campaign. Instead of the onus being on ME to change the creature from your personal fantasy, the onus is on you instead, where I'd argue it fully belongs.
3) When male, sexualized monsters exist, don't downplay the sexualized nature of them and turn them into irrelevant XP fodder.
The post you quote talks about the futility of being one person asking a company to do something that dips into its profits based on moral values not held by that company. I am not asking for that in any way, shape, or form. I'm asking that the pie that the company provides regardless just be made possible for everyone. If it can't be done, I ask the question of "well if Team A can't handle sharing pie, do they really deserve it?"
I noticed a trend in Paizo material that runs counter to a value they espouse. I pointed it out to them. It is entirely up to them what they want to do with it, where they want to go, and whether or not they decide they feel it conflicts with that value in the future. Go back to the start of the thread, start reading my posts instead of skimming them, and then formulate a reply.
zark have I mentioned how cool you are by proving how wrong xeose is :P
Where am I wrong? I cite sources, evidence, and present actual arguments, while you say... what? That my experience doesn't exist?
on a serious note (and more on topic) I would like to point out (as a early poster also said I think) that I do not believe that anything is preventing the GM from changing a character's sex/ name/ etc and pulling up a image from the interweb to better suite the group. Also maybe the solution to this is not to have romance in the story period leaving it to gm to do such things.. that way I can drink brandy and murderhobo in peace.
How about, if you want to make your campaign full of subservient females existing primarily as sexy lady-part objects, you do the work of changing things in your campaign. I'm paying for RPG material, not fantasy fodder. If it's so absolutely necessary for you to have sexy stuff in your RPG material, I don't see why you can't do that work yourself and leave it out of the base product.
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Here's an analogy for you:
There is a picnic. The people hosting the picnic serve a great, amazing, absolutely delightful 4-course meal that satisfies everyone. Then they give Team A pie. It's a nice pie, and as someone who can participate in Team A alongside Team B, I can tell that it is a nice pie and appreciate it a lot.
Team B does not get pie. They don't get any pie at all. They keep coming though, and it's nice. Eventually, someone on Team B is like "You know, I'd like some pie too! Sure we get stuff that sometimes looks like pie, but we really don't get pie!"
They're told "Sorry, but a couple people from Team A don't like to see people from Team B eating pie. They might get offended if we offered you pie."
This leaves people from Team B feeling left out. They don't understand why an unfair system is perpetuated like that. "Well, could you maybe stop serving pie? And just serve another course altogether?" they ask, but that question goes unanswered.
Well, if we have to use pie in our analogy, I'd be more likely to say that our hosts are providing pie for the picnic. By far apple is the favorite so there are all sorts of apple pies provided -- dutch apple, lattice top, etc etc. There is a small amount of cherry, chocolate, boysenberry and so forth, but not on the level of apple.
There isn't a lot provided of the other choices. It'd be nice if, as the market and tastes change, that the other selections are increased in quantity. There is still a huge demand for apple, however, and when you say pie people are naturally thinking apple so you'll always have a lot of it. Probably more than fifty percent, because people cannot get enough apple pie and it draws the crowds.
And I think that about burns up the pie analogy. It'd good to tell the company what you'd like. But it is also good to know why you are getting what you are getting.
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Well, if we have to use pie in our analogy, I'd be more likely to say that our hosts are providing pie for the picnic. By far apple is the favorite so there are all sorts of apple pies provided -- dutch apple, lattice top, etc etc. There is a small amount of cherry, chocolate, boysenberry and so forth, but not on the level of apple.
There isn't a lot provided of the other choices. It'd be nice if, as the market and tastes change, that the other selections are increased in quantity. There is still a huge demand for apple, however, and when you say pie people are naturally thinking apple so you'll always have a lot of it. Probably more than fifty percent, because people cannot get enough apple pie and it draws the crowds.
And I think that about burns up the pie analogy. It'd good to tell the company what you'd like. But it is also good to know why you are getting what you are getting.
That's a totally fair point, thanks for elaborating on that so succinctly. I wouldn't care at all if it was more than even 70% of the apple pie! The problem is that it's 99% of the pie is apple, and like I said, other people get stuff that just looks sorta like pie, but isn't really. I feel that giving even 10% of the pie to Team B, or even simply improving the quality of the existing pie-substitutes, is not a lot to ask.
Also, I keep forgetting:
TLDR: More sexy Draculas.
That's it, Dudemeister summed up everything I had to say, more eloquently than I ever could. I honestly cannot top that. (hah, ty dude, made my day).
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ha
first off I was making a sarcastic remark to show the hypocrisy of the comment that zark made I was actually agreeing that it was slightly out of hand but is you want to take it as a personal attack feel free
on the second part of your comment I am actually confused you are trying to demonize me then agree with the second part of my comment if you are going to complain and do nothing than act subserviently to a " straight white male" ruled game feel free the time you spent could have been spent doing a little work to 1. make your players feel more at ease in the setting 2. adding that extra mile for your players.
honestly I was offering constructive advice but if you rather attack everything that is said so be it.
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This topic reminds me of a presentation I caught part of on C-Span a couple years back. It was about sexism in society and businesses especially. NOTE: I AM NOT COMPARING THIS TOPIC TO THOSE REAL WORLD ISSUES. It just reminded me of something the speaker mentioned.
Basically a lot of situations where white males (oh no, I said it) were getting advancement instead of women or minorities, wasn't due to sexism or racism on the part of the people doing the decisions. At each individual decision, they truly believed they were picking the best candidate for that advancement. The problem wasn't an individual issue, there were woman and minorities that get advanced, it was instead a trend. When looking back over a number of years, you saw that white males were getting positions way out of proportion.
We are seeing something like that here. Individually many of the issues raised by the OPer are hardly anything to bat an eye at. Instead it was the trend of these issues that is worrisome. But just like the speaker I saw said, the answer isn't to attack the people making the decisions. They weren't acting in a biased manner on an individual basis. It is instead to bring the issue to their attention and convince them that it is in their and their company's best interest to work harder at diversity. They need to ask themselves if they are making the easiest choice or the best choice, sometimes they can look the same, sometimes they are the same, but not always. The answer is to ally yourself with those in positions to make decisions, not to malign them.
"Now remember... the first step in avoiding a trap is knowing of its existence." -Thufir Hawat
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ha
first off I was making a sarcastic remark to show the hypocrisy of the comment that zark made I was actually agreeing that it was slightly out of hand but is you want to take it as a personal attack feel freeon the second part of your comment I am actually confused you are trying to demonize me then agree with the second part of my comment if you are going to complain and do nothing than act subserviently to a " straight white male" ruled game feel free the time you spent could have been spent doing a little work to 1. make your players feel more at ease in the setting 2. adding that extra mile for your players.
honestly I was offering constructive advice but if you rather attack everything that is said so be it.
Sarcasm doesn't always carry over well on the internet...I know that I didn't detect any in your post and took you straight up serious
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I think some parts of the audience are way over sensitive, and the slightest thing have them take offense. I note cultural trends.
All that, while we are swamped by far worse on a daily basis by mass media.
I think both of these things are true. BUT, neither one undermines the OP's point.
Just because other people are hypersensitive about your behavior doesn't mean that you now have an excuse to be insensitive about your own behavior. No, Paizo shouldn't overreact. But, it's worth their being critical and thoughtful about what they're doing, and taking reasoned criticism (such as given by the OP) to heart.
I happen to agree with that. it's just that I see too often the same arguments, and while they are fine by themselves, I don't want politically correct to stiffen authors from providing good challenging story hooks.
The dungeon is politicaaly correct and safe for authors. I happen to want more varied adventures than that.
I agree with Pres Man. On an individual level, most of the more sexualized monsters/NPCs are not an issue...they make sense. It's just in total does the trend look a bit problematic.
Paizo has been pretty good about listening to these concerns in the past. It wouldn't surprise me to see some of these issues addressed after Iron Gods...
Even if that were true(and I've serious doubts on those numbers, looking around at Gencon alone), it's no reason to not challenge the status-quo and do something productive about it.This will never be a 50% male/50% female hobby. My current game is, but we're 3 couples playing together.
Men like boobs. I'm sorry to say it, but it is just that simple. When 90+% of your clientele are male, it needs to be oriented towards males.It isn't 90% male because of the "hypersexualization," it is hypersexualized because it is 90% male.
Does that get under some women's skin, and turn them off toward the hobby and company? Certainly.
Does it bother most women? No one can say without some hefty empirical evidence, but in my experience I would guess most women accept it without so much as a second thought.My wife is an artist and draws over-the-top pieces of art. She's quite good at it. She doesn't usually attempt to mimic reality, nor should she pressured into it because X percent of female gamers wish there were less depictions of women in sexy armor.
In a certain sense, absolutely. In another, not as much.
I'm onboard with pushing out some meaningful male potential romance partners (and when playing a female PC in my own AP game I couldn't help but notice how few appealing male NPCs there were), but if the majority of the players are males playing males, it does make sense for the ratio to be at least somewhat skewed.
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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While it might be economically reasonable, in case of dimorphic races maybe you should try to order pictures showing both (or all in case of monsters that have more than two) forms - like a picture showing both a male and a female for Lashuntas.
Yes, I agree. This was a mistake that we did not do this. I wasn't so much trying to explain why the mistake isn't a mistake as I was trying to explain the practical context in which the mistake was made in the first place.
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I just wanted to point out that the worst example I've seen of this is from Skull and Shackles #2
Isabella Locke is the only character portrayal in all the adventure paths that I think goes too far with the issue. She is illustrated twice - once on the front cover and a different image on her writeup - both are model quality beauty with plastic surgery quality features. Then you read her history. spoiler for those who don't wish to know - if you have played through it - you should learn this though because the module really doesn't give any way to find out about this so it's easy to not know.
She wears almost nothing to show off her tattoos - fine - pirate - I get it. BUT.....
She was abducted at age 12 - most of her tattoos were (not my words) 'crudely rendered'. Her flesh was 'defiled' by the tattoos by the guy who took her captive - her teeth were knocked out with a hammer and she uses wooden teeth filed to points. This is not a woman who should look like a swimsuit model - even if by some means her 'defiled' flesh filled in with the right proportions - she should be scarred (physically) and carry a look in both her stance and her eyes that show 'no lingering remains of human compassion or mercy'.
Neither image shows that - indeed handmade wooden dentures filed to look like shark teeth should STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB AND BE A PRIMARY FEATURE OF ANY IMAGE OF THIS WOMAN.
Instead she could be a pinup model for the tattoo magazine cover.
I've looked at the other issues - and honestly a disparity of seductive male monsters vs the females is bad - it didn't take me out of the game and actually dislike the images for an NPC like the above did.
I haven't read *every* adventure path (yet) but that was the very worst thing I've noticed.
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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Here are two facts that shed some light on the issue.
1) According to our not-too-scientific reader surveys, women account for 4-6% of our readership.
2) Issues featuring scantily clad women on the cover, in general, sell better than issues that do not feature scantily clad women.
It should not be a great surprise to anyone that magazine publishing is a business, and one in which we are forced to compete with companies that have budgets orders of magnitude higher than the average non-Wizards of the Coast game company. In fact, magazine publishers like Conde Nast have budgets orders of magnitude higher than even Wizards of the Coast.
In that environment, we've got to do what we've got to do to sell magazines, and sometimes that involves showing some flesh. Since roughly 95% of our audience are men, that scantily clad flesh often belongs to a female.
Since that response is now 7 years old and we are in a completely different business, let me add a few points of clarification:
1) Pathfinder is not really a "newsstand" magazine, and thus the depressing metrics of magazine covers are not necessarily the same. If there was commercial pressure to include scantily clad women on covers in 2007, that same pressure does not necessarily exist in 2014. In other words, given the way our business has changed in the last 7 years, I no longer think this excuse holds water, and you shouldn't either.
2) We're gearing up to do a new demographic survey, and do not have any reliable data since several years before 2007, well before the creation of the Pathfinder brand. While I do not expect the numbers to have changed astronomically, I am relatively certain based on anecdotal evidence that the percentage of female players in our audience has increased significantly since then.
That is all. :)
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And James' and Erik's responses are some of the reasons I'm a consistent Pathfinder customer and Paizo fan. That the designers respond and not only say that the customers have been heard, but that they are constantly working on such things, is a big plus to me. Thanks James, Erik, and the rest of the Paizo staff. It's appreciated.
On topic, I'm fine with lots of attractive female NPCs and monsters, however, as DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote, "more sexy Draculas" please!
Side note - does anyone know if lillends are a female only race in Pathfinder?
Also, Mikaze, if you happen to read this, might I ask which artist you're getting to do the Lymnieris artwork? I'd love to see some of their other works. I draw some myself, but it's been a long time since I've uploaded any for others to view.
(...)That's fine! I actually really like hags for a lot of reasons - however, the reason that changelings themselves are not okay is because, while they inherit their mother's power, they are attractive by human standards, described in their entry as consistently "tall", "thin", and as having very pretty or elegant faces. Despite the fact that hags are hideous creatures, revel in ugliness, and gain power in that horrific appearance, their female daughters are suddenly sexy and hot, while retaining hag-power, while their male sons remain hagspawn, inheriting their mother's brutish ugliness while receiving none of the power. As it just so happens, one of these creatures is one that male PCs can have the opportunity to interact with, rescue, and ultimately lust over, while the other is a brutish, ugly ogre designed for cannon fodder, despite both being descendents of a hag mother and human father.
Why. Why are hagspawn hideous wretches, but changelings are gorgeous, conventionally attractive chicks with unusual features?(...)
I think there are two reasons in play:
1. Both the original background story for changelings and the hag's unique approach to child-raising requires changelings to look humanoid in order to fit in with their new parents. That changelings make for attractive offspring (though I must say "slender" doesn't translate to "gorgeous" for me personally) makes sense in a rather brutal darwinistic way.
2. Changelings can transform into hags, and hags are exclusively female. This makes more sense if "changeling" is the universal word for "hag female offspring", since we know that hags can produce male offspring as well. That said, I think a male changeling turning into a female hag could potentially make for a very interesting character story line.
Finally, the Pathfinder Wiki notes that hags can have male offspring that are not hag-spawn.
Hag babies are usually female. Any male children are normally sterile and are normal members of the father’s race, apart from possibly appearing “wrong” in some subtle way. However, in most cases this is a moot point, as hags generally eat their male offspring.
Unfortunately I can't verify this for myself since I do not own Classic Horrors Revisited, but I generally find that the wiki is very accurate.
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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In other words, do you think this discussion is going to change Paizo's stance on this issue?
I do.
Look, since I already had to come back with a new angle on some of my own comments from 7 years ago, I'm not really sure why another old post loaded with defensiveness originally written about a different OP by someone who no longer works for Paizo and does not represent its opinions has any relevance whatsoever to the current discussion.
Obviously xeose4 thinks the points raised here are going to change Paizo's policy.
I hope that they do, because most of the points raised are completely valid.
Please don't try to shut down criticism like this, especially if you think you're doing it to save our feelings or something. Getting feedback regarding when we've fallen short of our players' expectations is just as important as hearing about what a great job we are doing with something else.
We can handle it.
I'm curious, based on the various posts I've read - is the issue for most that women are being written or drawn as fantastically sexual or that men aren't being given equal treatment?
I'd hate to think that my game company was actively working against including fantasy in my fantasy products...
I am curious, since this seems to be an artwork issue. How many of the artists that Paizo commissions are female? I see plenty of official Paizo art while browsing DeviantArt, and a lot of those seem to be male. And of course, Paizo's posterboy (in a good way!) artist is male, Mr Wayne Reynolds. (Please don't take that comment about Mr WAR negatively, as it was definitely not meant to be)
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I can't speak for others, but for myself (a gay male), it's not so much that women are written as 'fantastically sexual', but the overall trend of there being so many examples of said women in comparison to similar romanticized men.
I think the female form is beautiful and artistic (and I think the same of the male form), and seeing women in positions of power and leadership is a great thing. Individually, such examples are wonderful. It's when they are taken on a whole that a trend could be seen. Comparatively, there are far fewer romanticized or attractive males which are available for possible romances and relationships.
At least, that's what I gathered.
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Seriously, James and Erik, youse guys are awesome. :)
TLDR: More sexy Draculas.
Ahahahahahaha
Also seconding that Empty Graves NPC.
Side note - does anyone know if lillends are a female only race in Pathfinder?
I'm strongly hoping not. It'd be cool to see a male lillend turn up. Even though they were all biologically female and reproduced parthenogenically in Planescape, they could have either male or female bodies there. Perhaps in Pathfinder, where they're full-blown celestials, they can be naturally either?
Here's hoping!
Also, Mikaze, if you happen to read this, might I ask which artist you're getting to do the Lymnieris artwork? I'd love to see some of their other works. I draw some myself, but it's been a long time since I've uploaded any for others to view.
Sure! I'll send a PM as soon as I can put it together. :) (preserving the surprise a bit)
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I don't mind people getting art of good looking guys if that is what they want but I don't like the idea of not getting any art of attractive woman. I haven't even seen good art for a female pixie, there is only one art piece for nixies, I could think of more but I just got off work and I am tired. Though most 0HD races do have art for male and female versions, I do agree, the fact there is no art for male Lashunta does puzzle me.
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If there was commercial pressure to include scantily clad women on covers in 2007, that same pressure does not necessarily exist in 2014. In other words, given the way our business has changed in the last 7 years, I no longer think this excuse holds water, and you shouldn't either.
Well, I agree, I don't think the excuse holds water... in fact, I am not sure it ever held water. I mean, of course I get it, Paizo is a publishing company, and like any company you must reap a profit for your efforts. Sexualizing women and articulating it through some of the most disturbing (heterosexual, white) male power fantasies makes money, as can be evinced by glancing at other forms of popular media. There might even be some sort of relationship between how misogynistic an image is, and how quickly said images fly off the shelves. Though in retrospect, talking about the justification with weasel words ("If there was commercial pressure...") makes it seem like maybe it isn't the case that the market forces forced Paizo to exploit images of women. If not this, then what?
If that excuse no longer holds water, and things have change for Paizo or the market, then what is the excuse for covers such as this little bibliothèque à trois for Inner Sea Magic? Is it that the male gaze still persists as a governing force in the selecting of images?
That is all for now. ;)
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If there was commercial pressure to include scantily clad women on covers in 2007, that same pressure does not necessarily exist in 2014. In other words, given the way our business has changed in the last 7 years, I no longer think this excuse holds water, and you shouldn't either.Well, I agree, I don't think the excuse holds water... in fact, I am not sure it ever held water. I mean, of course I get it, Paizo is a publishing company, and like any company you must reap a profit for your efforts. Sexualizing women and articulating it through some of the most disturbing (heterosexual, white) male power fantasies makes money, as can be evinced by glancing at other forms of popular media. There might even be some sort of relationship between how misogynistic an image is, and how quickly said images fly off the shelves. Though in retrospect, talking about the justification with weasel words ("If there was commercial pressure...") makes it seem like maybe it isn't the case that the market forces forced Paizo to exploit images of women. If not this, then what?
If that excuse no longer holds water, and things have change for Paizo or the market, then what is the excuse for covers such as this little bibliothèque à trois for Inner Sea Magic? Is it that the male gaze still persists as a governing force in the selecting of images?
That is all for now. ;)
As the supposed hetro white male whom that cover targets, I can say that there is no need to continue making covers like this to solicit my dollars. All three ladies on that cover scare me. Seoni looks like a drag queen's worst nightmare (really bad wig, terrible fake nails, and that amulet isn't hiding her huge neck.) Alahazra has that blank stare that she does that makes me want to run away. Plus I think she has just purposely dislocated her right arm, and her right hand is actually an alligator flipper. The other lady (Katniss Everdeen maybe?) is looking pretty mean and has swords and stuff. At any rate, I don't believe a romp with her right now would be particularly enjoyable.
So, as the target demographic, I hereby state that this type of cover holds no interest for me. Please discontinue.
Seoni looks like a drag queen's worst nightmare (really bag wig, terrible fake nails, and that amulet isn't hiding her huge neck. Alahazra has that blank stare that she does that makes me want to run away. Plus I think she has just purposely dislocated her right arm, and her right hand is actually an alligator flipper. The other lady (Katniss Everdeen maybe?) is looking pretty mean and has swords and stuff. At any rate, I don't believe a romp with her right now would be particularly enjoyable.
I agree with your thoughts on Seoni and Alahazra, but the third woman is just HOT! [/crickets]
Seoni looks like a drag queen's worst nightmare (really bag wig, terrible fake nails, and that amulet isn't hiding her huge neck. Alahazra has that blank stare that she does that makes me want to run away. Plus I think she has just purposely dislocated her right arm, and her right hand is actually an alligator flipper. The other lady (Katniss Everdeen maybe?) is looking pretty mean and has swords and stuff. At any rate, I don't believe a romp with her right now would be particularly enjoyable.I agree with your thoughts on Seoni and Alahazra, but the third woman is just HOT! [/crickets]
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If there was commercial pressure to include scantily clad women on covers in 2007, that same pressure does not necessarily exist in 2014. In other words, given the way our business has changed in the last 7 years, I no longer think this excuse holds water, and you shouldn't either.Well, I agree, I don't think the excuse holds water... in fact, I am not sure it ever held water. I mean, of course I get it, Paizo is a publishing company, and like any company you must reap a profit for your efforts. Sexualizing women and articulating it through some of the most disturbing (heterosexual, white) male power fantasies makes money, as can be evinced by glancing at other forms of popular media. There might even be some sort of relationship between how misogynistic an image is, and how quickly said images fly off the shelves. Though in retrospect, talking about the justification with weasel words ("If there was commercial pressure...") makes it seem like maybe it isn't the case that the market forces forced Paizo to exploit images of women. If not this, then what?
If that excuse no longer holds water, and things have change for Paizo or the market, then what is the excuse for covers such as this little bibliothèque à trois for Inner Sea Magic? Is it that the male gaze still persists as a governing force in the selecting of images?
That is all for now. ;)
I'm still trying to figure out:
1) Exactly what is so immoral about appealing to hetero-sexual white male fantasies and why does it needs to be not only stopped but the offenders punished in some way? Requesting that a particular aspect of the game be made appealing to all rather than a few is one thing, but demanding that it punitively stop be made appealing to the majority is another - unless there's something inherently immoral about actually being a hetero-sexual white male? So often that seems to be the insinuation...
2) What does being white have to do with it? Are Asian make fantasies and African American make fantasies something else entirely? As I'm not a member of either ethnic group, I can't say for certain but I imagine they find more or less the same things appealing...
Or, I suppose we could just stop labeling people, putting them in groups and then categorically speaking for them altogether.
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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If that excuse no longer holds water, and things have change for Paizo or the market, then what is the excuse for covers such as this little bibliothèque à trois for Inner Sea Magic? Is it that the male gaze still persists as a governing force in the selecting of images?
I don't feel the need to "excuse" that cover, because I don't really think that cover is particularly egregious. Seoni is wearing her traditional clothes, but her pose is not particularly seductive and her curves are less pronounced than in several other illustrations of her.
Alhazra is depicted on model, if in a bit of an awkward pose. The other creature is a fiery elemental spirit. I imagine she's quite warm in more clothes than that. ;)
Look, it's a "sexy" picture, or at least it's trying to be. Us attempting to do a better job on stuff like this is not the same thing as us being 100% prudish or never putting an "attractive" female on a book cover.
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All in all, I am impressed with the variety of Paizo art. A lot of it is amazing in style and quality and fits very well to what is described. There are images of more or less every single type of person (no, really, there are old men and women too). That, for me, is a large part of what I want in their art.
When writing, it is an old truth that "sexy" is far easier to do than "beautiful". And, sadly, it seems to be the case in pictures as well. It may be that I am alone in this, but if I were to make a request on Paizo art, it would be "more beautiful and attractive, less sexy", at least where sexy is not really thought through. There is nothing wrong with a woman described as seductive, in a position where that makes sense, to be shown in art to be seductive. Wooden teeth is not quite... there, though. It sort of needs to make sense, you know? When you take women not described as sexy and add "accidental" high slitted skirts draped over calf-bent knees, or add tight cleavage mega-boobs, or the like, that gets old. When doing sexy, do it well. When not, aim for something else.
And of course, beautiful men need representation too. More relationship material, please. I trust Paizo to write them (and draw them) well.
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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To be clear I said "if there was commercial pressure" to acknowledge the fundamental weakness of that argument, even in 2007.
It's less an issue of commercial pressure than institutional wisdom of 'this is the way the magazine business works" going back to Paizo's first publisher (and before). When I got on staff, we were excoriated for trivialities like not having a single figure (preferably a good-looking woman) looking directly at the viewer, with her eyes in the top 1/3rd of the page. My first day on Wizards of the Coast's Periodicals Team (which went on to become Paizo in 2002), the group publisher (who went on to become Paizo's first publisher) threatened the entire staff with termination if an editor ever approved another brown cover, as brown covers fundamentally sold worse than other colors. For three years or more, this was referred to as "termination brown," and people took these words of wisdom very seriously.*
Moving out of the magazine business meant a lot of things--not least of which, we no longer had to cover our cover art with all kinds of annoying marketing blurbs--and one of those things was more flexibility in what we put on our covers.
_That's_ what I mean by the change in "commercial pressure" between the magazine business prior to 2007 and the Pathfinder business after it.
* We should not have done so. The issue that triggered the "termination brown" fiasco ended up selling better than almost any other issue of Dungeon published that year. Sometimes institutional wisdom is garbage.
All in all, I am impressed with the variety of Paizo art. A lot of it is amazing in style and quality and fits very well to what is described. There are images of more or less every single type of person (no, really, there are old men and women too). That, for me, is a large part of what I want in their art.
I am far from buying all paizo books so I am not sure about what I am going to say, but when I am making characters to play pbp in this forum it get much more easy for me to find a good portrait for a female pc than for a male. The variety on male portraits is just scarse IMHO. They all look grumpy, or scared or are old, AKA, not even close. The same thing happens every time I have to choose a male portrait.
For this PC I wanted a young, perhaps nerdy and innocent looking, blond human. I was to choose this one because it was the only young non armored one.
NOTE: Not meant as a criticism, just commenting about variety.
Yeah. That headdress is a constant risk of breaking her neck. Not even my dear head carapace comes close.
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Every time I read "...this is why I stopped buying X..." I think to myself well then this conversation is not for you, please go away. The title of this thread is not "Festivus; the airing of grievances about your product!" Seriously a well worded concise letter about your dislikes or likes would much more appropriate and more apt to be considered.
As for the OP thanks for starting the conversation by blaming the majority, seriously, as SWM I an aware it's my fault and that if only understood that other people like other things them maybe you'd get that mince meat and squash pie you've been pining for. While I think that Paizo is doing great things reaching out to a much broader audience than ever before and being more inclusive than I ever seen in the 20 years I've been playing, I also think it's great that they are being so brash about breaking these barriers by not submitting to the thought police and political correctness. This company names their devils, tells their readers how character summon them, marks all manner or arcane sigils throughout many publications and yeah they portray the females as sexy and proud. Sure a couple of thick girls would be ok just as a handsome, ruggedly bearded fellow would be fine on a cover or two of the product. I just don't think that vilifying the art and story choices that exist so far (less than 100 FTR) is helping your cause.
Besides have you ever thought thats why most plain, simple townsfolk don't really like adventurers? Here they are dressed in their plain, homespun garb and here comes Valeros and Amiri come rolling in and bam! suddenly every boy in town is sharpening swords and all the girls tighten up their blouses. Sure maybe the smith's burly daughter pull's out that axe she's been making and the waifish bard also tunes it up. Sure it bears mention, but if the story is served by the tension between the PC's and the over excited youth of the town, townies with swords and strumped up girls will bear more mention than the fringes.
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Translation: I got mine, I don't see any problems.
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I should hasten to point out, for the benefit of people like me who just look at the little pictures to see who's talking, that I am NOT the OP. He's a new person who swiped my avatar just to start this thread.
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I should hasten to point out, for the benefit of people like me who just look at the little pictures to see who's talking, that I am NOT the OP. He's a new person who swiped my avatar just to start this thread.
Since you brought it up, gotta say I read well over half the thread before I realized this.
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I should hasten to point out, for the benefit of people like me who just look at the little pictures to see who's talking, that I am NOT the OP. He's a new person who swiped my avatar just to start this thread.
You people all look alike.
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I should hasten to point out, for the benefit of people like me who just look at the little pictures to see who's talking, that I am NOT the OP. He's a new person who swiped my avatar just to start this thread.Since you brought it up, gotta say I read well over half the thread before I realized this.
Yeah, I was half asleep and had to go back, wondering "Kirth sure seems different today for some reason..."
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Assistant Software Developer
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I'm just going to toss this out, because, well it's awesome.
<3 So much love for the Hawkeye Initiative.