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The more I read, the more I think people that want "Epic fighters" might be more happy with a superhero RPG? There are plenty of them out there, and allow "fighters" to split mountains with their bare hands and leap miles in a single bound.
I think there is a good middle point between not being able to jump 3ft and jumping miles into the air.
Or not being able to split a wall and splitting mountains.
1) I am just going to point out that it is not uncommon for barbarians to use their feats to get more rage powers... that says something about the power of feats...
2) Why in god's name are you using a fighter for mounted combat? If you want a mounted combatant, you use the Cavalier, the paladin, the barbarian, the ranger, or the Summoner... The fighter is worse than all of them at mounted combat...
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We don't want "Epic Fighters". We want "Fighters with CR-Appropriate Abilities".
On a similar note, maybe those who want Fighters to be "realistic" through all their carriers would be happier with low-fantasy RPGs. There are plenty of them out there, where "Fighters" can never grow stronger than what a fit adult could reasonably do.
I'd argue that the Fighter gets less out of their bonus feats than other classes because the Fighter does nothing to jump prerequisites.
Who's getting more out of their bonus feats: the Ranger who is getting TWF, ITWF, and Two-Weapon Rend absolutely free, or the Fighter who also needs to pump their dex to 17, pick up Double Slice, wait an extra level to get Rend, and maybe Weapon Finesse and the Agile enchantment to justify buying a high dex?
Solution: Never do TWF. It's a TRAP!
Solution: Never do TWF. It's a TRAP!
Yeah, well... I can partially agree with that. Sadly, TWF (or pseudo-TWF) is the only way to make Unarmed Combat viable at higher levels, thanks to the abusive price of AoMF and lack of good alternatives.
Brawling armor enhancement helps a little, but still...
:(
Okay, then how about a mounted Ranger. Rangers get Mounted Skirmisher at level 10, Fighters need to wait till 14 because of the Ride prereq.
1) I am just going to point out that it is not uncommon for barbarians to use their feats to get more rage powers... that says something about the power of feats...
And rogues use their rogue talent to buy more feats, that says something about rogue talents.
2) Why in god's name are you using a fighter for mounted combat? If you want a mounted combatant, you use the Cavalier, the paladin, the barbarian, the ranger, or the Summoner... The fighter is worse than all of them at mounted combat...
Fighter are pretty good monted combatant, that build failed at it, IMHO.
It's a magic item. If this is the one, it's not even that impressive.Not sure what is that and how you have it.
And good luck killing her obsidian steed.
Wait... That's her mount? Really?
Okay, then how about a mounted Ranger. Rangers get Mounted Skirmisher at level 10, Fighters need to wait till 14 because of the Ride prereq.
Mounted combat for a fighter is either a low level trick or a high level trick provided you can get a dragon cohort*
*Assume leadership is allowed and the GM doesn't let you cherry pick and create your cohort.
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The more I read, the more I think people that want "Epic fighters" might be more happy with a superhero RPG? There are plenty of them out there, and allow "fighters" to split mountains with their bare hands and leap miles in a single bound.I think there is a good middle point between not being able to jump 3ft and jumping miles into the air.
Or not being able to split a wall and splitting mountains.
So being able to dunk in full plate then?
So being able to dunk in full plate then?The more I read, the more I think people that want "Epic fighters" might be more happy with a superhero RPG? There are plenty of them out there, and allow "fighters" to split mountains with their bare hands and leap miles in a single bound.I think there is a good middle point between not being able to jump 3ft and jumping miles into the air.
Or not being able to split a wall and splitting mountains.
I'm thinking at least 30ft in the air by 20.
Which is not even something a monk can do. IMHO vertical jump DCs have serious problems. For one, running does not make you jump higher. High jumpers run to build up momentum so that they can jump straight up and still go over the bar, instead of jumping at an angle.
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They're all pretty cool characters, but their core mechanics work more in spite of the fact that they're a fighter rather than because of it.
I will use all the tools provided to my by RAW. If you choose not to use those tools, the problem is with you, not the game system.Has good saves vs. everything, travels the planes using items she crafted: Cyrhraul Dig
Diverse Skills, broad access to magic: Celebrian Elanesse
Diverse Skills, battlefield control, access to magic: Alexander Mayweather
NOte that he have to provide 3 character for the diferent things. Particularly his "decent" (not great) save fighter is bad at skill and the one with acces to magic have an atrocious will save.
He actually can not do the things he promised. It is pretty know that you can have devote enough resources in the fighter to patch a weakness.
Now, the barbarian by the other hand, would be better at skills, saves, TOuch AC, no less AC, pounce, high DR, more HP, incredibly high CMB/CMD, cleave magic, all in the same build.
I'm also not seeing what level 20 builds with fully optimized WBL really have to do with anything; yeah man, money is awesome. Unless you start with it then you're still mostly bad at all the things you claimed to be good at. There's also the fact that you are level 20. Congratulations you have +20 something to a skill. You are now in the same club as anyone who cared about it 10 levels ago.
There's also the fact that you are level 20. Congratulations you have +20 something to a skill. You are now in the same club as anyone who cared about it 10 levels ago.
Can confirm, my rogue might have thought those skill were impressive at level 8.
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So being able to dunk in full plate then?The more I read, the more I think people that want "Epic fighters" might be more happy with a superhero RPG? There are plenty of them out there, and allow "fighters" to split mountains with their bare hands and leap miles in a single bound.I think there is a good middle point between not being able to jump 3ft and jumping miles into the air.
Or not being able to split a wall and splitting mountains.
I'm thinking at least 30ft in the air by 20.
Which is not even something a monk can do. IMHO vertical jump DCs have serious problems. For one, running does not make you jump higher. High jumpers run to build up momentum so that they can jump straight up and still go over the bar, instead of jumping at an angle.
Well on one hand you are talking about jumping 30ft in the air and on the other having an issue with DCs because they dont work off reality. Not sure what to tell you.
Well on one hand you are talking about jumping 30ft in the air and on the other having an issue with DCs because they dont work off reality. Not sure what to tell you.So being able to dunk in full plate then?The more I read, the more I think people that want "Epic fighters" might be more happy with a superhero RPG? There are plenty of them out there, and allow "fighters" to split mountains with their bare hands and leap miles in a single bound.I think there is a good middle point between not being able to jump 3ft and jumping miles into the air.
Or not being able to split a wall and splitting mountains.
I'm thinking at least 30ft in the air by 20.
Which is not even something a monk can do. IMHO vertical jump DCs have serious problems. For one, running does not make you jump higher. High jumpers run to build up momentum so that they can jump straight up and still go over the bar, instead of jumping at an angle.
Things making sense and things mimicking reality are two different concepts.
Conflating the two is just disingenuous.
Even though for the fighter feats are twice as good since they only cost half as much.This is not an accurate equivalency.
Feats are exactly as good for the Fighter as they are for anyone else, he just gets more of them (rarely does this actually mean twice as many since most classes get at least a few bonus feats).Now, if feats actually provided benefits equivalent to what other classes were getting instead of feats, we wouldn't have all of these conversations going.
Similarly, if Fighters could do something with a weapon different than what someone else could do, the "that's not a class feature" argument wouldn't keep coming up.
In fact, I find feats tend to actually lose value the more you have. I have seen a lot of builds where the fighter ends up with more feats than he really has a use for. People generally take the best feats they qualify for, so bonus feats go to what's second-best.
One of the points that comes up a lot in defense of Fighters is that they have feats to waste on relatively useless/low value options, because they can already cover all the feats that would actually be good for their character. Personally, I would rather have good features for a class than have being less hurt by bad choices as a class feature.
Now, the one thing I will grant the fighter is that all his bonus feats lets him a climb a few low-level feat chains very quickly. But then, low levels are not the point where fighters have issues.
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Well on one hand you are talking about jumping 30ft in the air and on the other having an issue with DCs because they dont work off reality. Not sure what to tell you.So being able to dunk in full plate then?The more I read, the more I think people that want "Epic fighters" might be more happy with a superhero RPG? There are plenty of them out there, and allow "fighters" to split mountains with their bare hands and leap miles in a single bound.I think there is a good middle point between not being able to jump 3ft and jumping miles into the air.
Or not being able to split a wall and splitting mountains.
I'm thinking at least 30ft in the air by 20.
Which is not even something a monk can do. IMHO vertical jump DCs have serious problems. For one, running does not make you jump higher. High jumpers run to build up momentum so that they can jump straight up and still go over the bar, instead of jumping at an angle.
Things making sense and things mimicking reality are two different concepts.
Conflating the two is just disingenuous.
Not disingenuous at all. For me once you start talking about 30 ft jumping in the air im ready to throw out reason and let abstract be abstract without worrying about the particulars.
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Not disingenuous at all. For me once you start talking about 30 ft jumping in the air im ready to throw out reason and let abstract be abstract without worrying about the particulars.Things making sense and things mimicking reality are two different concepts.
Conflating the two is just disingenuous.
How?
Basic physics, if someone pushed off the ground with enough force they can reach 30ft into the air.
Perhaps the kind of strength needed to eat a full-attack from a the Tarrasque and still remain standing. Or the strength needed to be able to swing your sword so hard that it can kill entities made out of pure evil like the Balor. Or the kind of strength needed to lift 3200 lbs over your head (30 strength) and walk around.
Things don't have to mimic reality to make sense, I don't understand how anyone playing PF failed to grasp that concept.
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So being able to dunk in full plate then?The more I read, the more I think people that want "Epic fighters" might be more happy with a superhero RPG? There are plenty of them out there, and allow "fighters" to split mountains with their bare hands and leap miles in a single bound.I think there is a good middle point between not being able to jump 3ft and jumping miles into the air.
Or not being able to split a wall and splitting mountains.
Well, a Fighter with Armor Training4 and Masterwork Full Plate has only a -1 penalty on the swim check, so he can probably dunk in full plate pretty well.
Design Manager
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Well, a Fighter with Armor Training4 and Masterwork Full Plate has only a -1 penalty on the swim check, so he can probably dunk in full plate pretty well.
I assume you meant on the Acrobatics check... Note that nothing ever changes the fact that the DC to jump 10 feet in the air is 40, and your strength has no bearing on how high you can jump :/
Again though, it comes back to the fact that skills never let you do anything new, they just allow you to do it under more adverse circumstances.
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High movement would indeed affect your height, because to jump high you have to move upwards...fast. Granted, a very high str/wt ratio is more important, but good high jumpers are not weak and are very light on their feet. I can totally see high movement affecting vertical jump.
That said, once you are past sixth level, Jump is about being lifted by your soul more then your muscles. To jump thirty feet in the air you'd probably have to be able to run fifty MPH. Sixty feet, more like two hundred (which Spider-man can do). But after sixth, you are leaving pure human physical power way behind.
I also make a difference between skill RANKS and skill BONUSES. Most skill points gained from racial hit dice are bonuses, not ranks, with the exception being outsiders and fey, the one drawing on profound knowledge and the other learning through endless reincarnations. Other creatures? They just get bonuses.
Levels in classes get someone skill RANKS.
And once you draw that line, all you have to do is make feats/talents that give those with the right number of skill RANKS special abilities, and you're golden.
But, yeah, see how doing a fighter re-write spreads out into other parts of the system?
==Aelryinth
High movement would indeed affect your height, because to jump high you have to move upwards...fast. Granted, a very high str/wt ratio is more important, but good high jumpers are not weak and are very light on their feet. I can totally see high movement affecting vertical jump.
I'm talking about the need for a running start to jump higher. That doesn't make sense.
Being able to run fast could easily make you jump higher because that speed indicates stronger legs. Jumping half as high straight up without a running start doesn't make sense.
Now for things like jumping onto a table, the running start does make sense because you need the horizontal momentum. But jumping up to reach a ledge should not be effected by a running start.
Set a DC for doing ridiculous things with skills and if you can beat it, you can do the ridiculous thing.3.5'S ELH had DCs for swimming up a waterfall, walking on water, balancing on a cloud, climb on perfectly smooth ceilings, and dominate people by playing a harmonica really well.
And it was awesome... and the lack of an equivalent in Pathfinder upsets my delicate sensibilities.
Too bad the DCs were so high, those tricks might as well not exist. I prefer limiting them to skill ranks, this way, it's easier to set at what levels those skill checks could be made.
Why?
Because there should be room in the game for classes that are easy to grasp and run.
Guy-with-a-sword is very easy to identify with and many players like playing that role. They don't need to memorize the hundred-and-something pages casters do. They swing, they hit, they hurt. That's their job and it's an honest living.
It's that simple. If you amp the fighter up to be "epic", you alienate those who want a fighter.
The solution: leave things as they are. Also, allow The Path of War in your games for that epic-fighter-guy role, when someone wants to play it.
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You are welcome to stand there naked and scream "It's not fair."No one said that, have no idea why you're being such an ass about this. Creating a bunch of gimmicky, mediocre builds isn't exactly anything to pat your back over.
You're standing there refusing to use the material the game system provide and screaming "Martial Can't". I'm sitting on my side of the table, using the tools provided by the game system saying, I already can.
The problem is not with the game system. It is with player.
The Rogue is BatmanExcept he's not. He's a lousy Batman at best. Maybe Robin.
Burt Ward's Robin, probably. Robin's had some pretty fantastic moments every once and a while... Teen Titans Robin essentially defines the badass normal. Though considering his role on the team in that story he's probably more of a Tactician Fighter than a Rogue.
Why?
Because there should be room in the game for classes that are easy to grasp and run.
Guy-with-a-sword is very easy to identify with and many players like playing that role. They don't need to memorize the hundred-and-something pages casters do. They swing, they hit, they hurt. That's their job and it's an honest living.
It's that simple. If you amp the fighter up to be "epic", you alienate those who want a fighter.
The solution: leave things as they are. Also, allow The Path of War in your games for that epic-fighter-guy role, when someone wants to play it.
Fighter is not the easy class.
Barbarians is infinitely more straight forward.
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The Rogue is BatmanExcept he's not. He's a lousy Batman at best. Maybe Robin.
A rogue with Bruce Wane money would put most wizards to shame.
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2) Why in god's name are you using a fighter for mounted combat? If you want a mounted combatant, you use the Cavalier, the paladin, the barbarian, the ranger, or the Summoner... The fighter is worse than all of them at mounted combat...
The fighter has the feats to take advantage of mounted combat and still be fully effective when they get off the mount. It is a tool, a means to an end. Mounted skirmisher provides full attacks while being mobile outdoors. When it's dungeon time, put the mount away and keep going.
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You are welcome to stand there naked and scream "It's not fair."No one said that, have no idea why you're being such an ass about this. Creating a bunch of gimmicky, mediocre builds isn't exactly anything to pat your back over.You're standing refusing to use the material the game system provide and screaming "Martial Can't". I'm sitting on my side of the table, using the tools provided by the game system saying, I already can.
The problem is not with the game system. It is with player.
I'd love to see level 10 versions. By posting level 20 characters, all you've shown is how powerful Wealth is.
Male Tiefling (Azlanti) Expert 10
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+6 armor, +3 shield, +6 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +11, Ref +13, Will +12
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 agile cestus +17/+12 (1d4+12/19-20)
Tiefling Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +11)
. . 1/day—darkness
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 26
Feats Arcane Strike, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Defensive Combat Training, Weapon Finesse
Traits reactionary, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +14, Intimidate +14, Perception +14, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +14; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
Languages Abyssal, Azlanti, Common, Infernal
Combat Gear potion of good hope (4); Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +2 buckler, +3 agile cestus, bane baldric, belt of physical might (dex & con +2), boots of speed, cloak of resistance +3, ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, attack), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), menacing amulet of mighty fists, ring of protection +1, 11,267 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
DPR Against AC 24:
Normal (Including Arcane Strike): 20.01
Flanking: 26.97
Flanking + Haste: 42.63
Flanking + Haste + Bane: 74.73
EDIT:Got Arcane Strike and made Perry a Tiefling instead.
And people say Experts are weak... (Perry still has over 11200gp left, BTW).
To actually talk about the OP's topic...
I've always kind of thought it was dumb that high level skills are still bounded by silly restrictions like maximum move speed, etc.
I'd like to see characters with 20 ranks in climb have a climb speed and the ability to do things like climb a wall with their toes while fighting with a sword and shield, or characters with 20 ranks in swim have a swim speed and the ability to hold their breath for hours at a time. Characters with 20 ranks in acrobatics should be able to simulate overland flight with Hulk-style jumps, and characters with 20 ranks in Perception should be able to pierce invisibility by detecting the subtle movements of air around a hidden opponent.
I get the whole realism thing, but let's face the fact that that was already left in the dust back around 7th level. Frankly, I think it's more of a stretch to say that a guy who can benchpress a dump-truck and weave through a kraken's tentacles without ever being touched can't jump more than 30 feet ever without magical assistance.
I had to sleep on this to try to determine what about it bothered me. While I'd like to see fighters get a little more, to be like some of the characters of legend (who, in many cases, appear to be getting magical assistance, godly assistance, are demi-gods, mythic, and so on), I'd really prefer not to have people clinging to walls with their toes while sword fighting or jumping miles at a time.
That's more a personal choice and dislike than anything necessarily wrong with the idea -- while I don't NEED the fighter to be grounded in so-called reality, at the same time I don't want or need high level characters to be super heroes or out of this world anime types.
I'm not sure what changes I'd really like or need, but I know those aren't it.
On the issue at hand: I'm sorry, but those builds aren't very good, and the things that they do do have nothing to do with being fighters.
Mimic those build in their entirety with a commoner and I will believe you.
They may or may not be good but they have everything to do with being a fighter.
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Design Manager
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To actually talk about the OP's topic...
I've always kind of thought it was dumb that high level skills are still bounded by silly restrictions like maximum move speed, etc.
I'd like to see characters with 20 ranks in climb have a climb speed and the ability to do things like climb a wall with their toes while fighting with a sword and shield, or characters with 20 ranks in swim have a swim speed and the ability to hold their breath for hours at a time. Characters with 20 ranks in acrobatics should be able to simulate overland flight with Hulk-style jumps, and characters with 20 ranks in Perception should be able to pierce invisibility by detecting the subtle movements of air around a hidden opponent.
I get the whole realism thing, but let's face the fact that that was already left in the dust back around 7th level. Frankly, I think it's more of a stretch to say that a guy who can benchpress a dump-truck and weave through a kraken's tentacles without ever being touched can't jump more than 30 feet ever without magical assistance.
I had to sleep on this to try to determine what about it bothered me. While I'd like to see fighters get a little more, to be like some of the characters of legend (who, in many cases, appear to be getting magical assistance, godly assistance, are demi-gods, mythic, and so on), I'd really prefer not to have people clinging to walls with their toes while sword fighting or jumping miles at a time.
That's more a personal choice and dislike than anything necessarily wrong with the idea -- while I don't NEED the fighter to be grounded in so-called reality, at the same time I don't want or need high level characters to be super heroes or out of this world anime types.
I'm not sure what changes I'd really like or need, but I know those aren't it.
I may have gone a little overboard there (specifically with the Hulk-style leaps), but the point remains pretty close to the same. When I've, numerically, passed the capabilities of a real-world mortal 14 levels past, it's ridiculous that I'm still bound by all of these restrictions that just don't make any sense any more. See my point earlier about how incredibly difficult it is for a 20th level Fighter to jump 10 feet in the air without magical assistance (it's a DC 40).
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I'm also not seeing what level 20 builds with fully optimized WBL really have to do with anything; yeah man, money is awesome. Unless you start with it then you're still mostly bad at all the things you claimed to be good at. There's also the fact that you are level 20. Congratulations you have +20 something to a skill. You are now in the same club as anyone who cared about it 10 levels ago.
1. The entire thread was about high level characters. So yes, I posted high level. If you want to start a thread on low level game play, I'll post low level versions of those characters. I already have them.
2. Bad at their skills? The DC's for level 20 characters with 10 mythic levels (CR 25) is only 40. Even without mythic levels I still beat that over 50% of the time. Of course, it's much easier to trivialize those skills when you misquote their values. I'm quite a bit higher than +20.
I'm also not seeing what level 20 builds with fully optimized WBL really have to do with anything; yeah man, money is awesome. Unless you start with it then you're still mostly bad at all the things you claimed to be good at. There's also the fact that you are level 20. Congratulations you have +20 something to a skill. You are now in the same club as anyone who cared about it 10 levels ago.1. The entire thread was about high level characters. So yes, I posted high level. If you want to start a thread on low level game play, I'll post low level versions of those characters. I already have them.
2. Bad at their skills? The DC's for level 20 characters with 10 mythic levels (CR 25) is only 40. Even without mythic levels I still beat that over 50% of the time. Of course, it's much easier to trivialize those skills when you misquote their values. I'm quite a bit higher than +20.
Well, You have your quote wrong, That was not me. But yes, they are surpassed in skill by nearly everyone. When you try to have saves you fail at skills (and at the mounted combat by the way) and the winged guy fail at saves. Paladins, barbarians and rangers will not have this problem.
To actually talk about the OP's topic...
I've always kind of thought it was dumb that high level skills are still bounded by silly restrictions like maximum move speed, etc.
I'd like to see characters with 20 ranks in climb have a climb speed and the ability to do things like climb a wall with their toes while fighting with a sword and shield, or characters with 20 ranks in swim have a swim speed and the ability to hold their breath for hours at a time. Characters with 20 ranks in acrobatics should be able to simulate overland flight with Hulk-style jumps, and characters with 20 ranks in Perception should be able to pierce invisibility by detecting the subtle movements of air around a hidden opponent.
I get the whole realism thing, but let's face the fact that that was already left in the dust back around 7th level. Frankly, I think it's more of a stretch to say that a guy who can benchpress a dump-truck and weave through a kraken's tentacles without ever being touched can't jump more than 30 feet ever without magical assistance.
I had to sleep on this to try to determine what about it bothered me. While I'd like to see fighters get a little more, to be like some of the characters of legend (who, in many cases, appear to be getting magical assistance, godly assistance, are demi-gods, mythic, and so on), I'd really prefer not to have people clinging to walls with their toes while sword fighting or jumping miles at a time.
That's more a personal choice and dislike than anything necessarily wrong with the idea -- while I don't NEED the fighter to be grounded in so-called reality, at the same time I don't want or need high level characters to be super heroes or out of this world anime types.
I'm not sure what changes I'd really like or need, but I know those aren't it.
I do agree that it doesn't have to be an outrageous level like that. There are several guys whose resources alone proved to be effective, and the reason why those guys, who are just regular dudes who use their wits, resources, and whatever else they can muster to combat any entity that comes their way? Because they had options.
Guts from Berserk is a classic example of a "mundane everyday" guy who uses trickery (cloak as a decoy, fake hand to hold an exploding cannon and holster a repeating crossbow, which also has magnets stored within to help wield a sword that would otherwise require 3 hands to use) and brute force (the guy is commonly shown cleaving entire bodies and mounts in half with the same swing of his sword) to overcome all of the obstacles that laid in his path.
You try and do something that cool in this game as a Fighter, you're going to get screwed over fast, because you have no options or abilities or feats that allow you to accomplish that level of power.
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I may have gone a little overboard there (specifically with the Hulk-style leaps), but the point remains pretty close to the same. When I've, numerically, passed the capabilities of a real-world mortal 14 levels past, it's ridiculous that I'm still bound by all of these restrictions that just don't make any sense any more. See my point earlier about how incredibly difficult it is for a 20th level Fighter to jump 10 feet in the air without magical assistance (it's a DC 40).
I think people are confusing realistic and sensical.
I want fighters to make sense. They don't need to be grounded in reality though. In reality a mere man could never hope to stand on equal footing with angels and demons without a lot of GM fiat (divine intervention). High level PF characters are not realistic, but most of them make sense and follow a logical flow.
What I would like to see is that same level of logic applied to what the fighter does to show why they should be able to do some things they can't at the moment.
What I don't want to see is more barbar fixes. Like channeling the ability of a beast to attack with two claws and a bite all at once after a charge somehow gives the barbar the ability to swing his sword faster. Or the barbar having such a strong adversion to all things magic that they can remove intricate curses by smacking them. I'd rather see thing internally consistent like the barbar channeling nature of dragons to grow wings and fly. That last example is the least realistic, but it makes the most sense.