I really wish you said 3rd so I could make a joke about it literally flying out the window. I'd say they can do plenty before that.Incidentally I think this is a good example of what I meant by the martials' tools not keeping up at a decent pace.
The wizard can alter self/levitate at 3 and fly at 5. The dragon totem barbarian (since it was brought up earlier) gets her wings at 10. Those wings last less than a quarter as long, and have a permanent opportunity cost, and reduces her damage output... and is slower.
If you look at other martials their ability to get flight in class is going to be even more limited, and in some cases totally non existent. This is a game that almost expects you to fly, otherwise flying foes are going to really do a number on the party. Fighter isn't getting any, I don't think there are any on the ranger spell list and their limited animal companion list isn't flying, I don't think paladins have any either, cavalier is in a similar boat as the fighter thoug he can get a monstrous mount(which has its own issues/investment), rogue definitely gets none, etc... Actually, being a barbarian looks pretty attractive if your goal is to fly?
Luckily a potion is cheap, and its more than personal, but that's not really saying much about the class and it circles back to "martials eat resources!", rather than talking about their contribution. Even if the caster is an enabler, its an awkward relationship, imo, and works towards an inflexible game.
The Miracle thing confuses me. I've never seen a group that hasn't used it for standard action Resurrections. Which is the same idea behind Miracle duplicating Geas/Quest. Or Shades duplicating Summon Monster. I honestly don't see how you can interpret it any other way. Miracle duplicates Geas/Quest. You are not casting Geas/Quest, you are casting Miracle. Miracle explicitly has a standard action casting time. In that standard action, it duplicates Geas/Quest. This is extremely straightforward and very Rules as Intended and Rules as Written. I would hardly call it a "corner case" or "in need of interpretation".
Most of us don't double stack the bonus...Even by the most lenient of interpretations, the DC to pinpoint a stationary invisible creature is 60 + stealth. Barbar isn't finding him before he casts a spell.Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
Stealth + 20 (invis) + 20 (not moving) + 20 (pinpointing exact square).
That's by your interpretation of the stacking. Maybe double check the math before you make a snide comment please.
If the caster is casting a spell, he is moving unless he uses still spell. Likewise he is speaking unless he uses silent spell.
So basically it is: Stealth + 20 (invis) - 20 (speaking) + 20 (pinpointing exact square). So it works out as just Stealth + 20. That's still quite good if the caster has ranks in stealth.
Peet
On the subject of the original post, I see plenty of martials, not only because martials are fun, but also because they take less system mastery to manage.
The spellcaster has so many more options. Being the OP spellcaster also involves knowing how all those spells work. A lot of players don't want the hassle.
But what I consider really OP is a martial character with a super-high UMD. I am playing a 19th level martial in a 3.5 game with a UMD score in the high 20's, and since I developed the ability to use wands and scrolls basically at will my character has come to dominate the game. Best of both worlds.
Peet
On the subject of the original post, I see plenty of martials, not only because martials are fun, but also because they take less system mastery to manage.
The spellcaster has so many more options. Being the OP spellcaster also involves knowing how all those spells work. A lot of players don't want the hassle.
Very true. A wizard might be able to break the game if played at maximum system mastery, but playing a wizard optimized to that degree can easily require so much bookkeeping that a lot of people (including me) don't find it very much fun to play.
Not to mention remember how all the different spells work. Options are power, but for a lot of players casters have too many options. I'm sure we've all had at least one game where the caster needed ten minutes of looking over his spell list to decide what his next move would be.
Most of us don't double stack the bonus...Even by the most lenient of interpretations, the DC to pinpoint a stationary invisible creature is 60 + stealth. Barbar isn't finding him before he casts a spell.Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
Stealth + 20 (invis) + 20 (not moving) + 20 (pinpointing exact square).
That's by your interpretation of the stacking. Maybe double check the math before you make a snide comment please.
Stealth + 20 (invis) + 20 (not moving)
or
20 (not moving) + 20 (detecting the presence of an invisible creature)
That's what the rules say in ALL of the locations.
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And you have yet to verify what you claim is "by the book".All it says in the description is duplicate the spell. It says nothing about duplicate the spells effect. Duplicating the spell means that everything else comes with it. If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.
Miracle states what it changes. It does not say to extend the casting time unlike Contingency. That omission is very important.
I have a precedent, you do not.
The burden of proof is on you. Until you show proof, your argument has no grounds except "I don't want to be wrong." Which is extremely petty since you lose nothing.
I will reiterate, but considering your history of failing to read posts but replying to them regardless it is likely to go wasted.
Miracle includes the following phrase "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." It however lacks any phrase that suggests an increased Casting Time. Spells do and don't do only what they are described as doing or not doing. There is no DM Fiat unless theres a line like "At the GM’s discretion."
Though I'm sure that someone will mention something about Rule 0 or whatever like that proves anything since Rule 0 is essentially "I can houserule if I want if I don't like something!"
Look, you can think you are right all you want, and you can be right at "your" table all you want, but this isn't the first time this conversation has come up. I have looked at other threads and it has the same thing. The devs have not popped in to clarify it so it can go either way.
The burden is on you to prove me wrong and the burden is on me to prove you wrong. Seeing as it "could" go either way, the whole thing becomes invalid and reserved for individual tables.
Wow... if that is not the most childish thing I have heard...
I don't even think Wizards need that much system mastery. I think a lot of martials require more. A wizard doesn't have to care about meeting prereqs, build order, multiclassing, etc. He just has to pick spells and possibly items to craft.
Compared to trying to build a "punchy man that punches really well", building a competent wizard is basically going diviner and picking up some control and utility spells every level.
What's annoying about them is that there's about 2-3 times as much bookkeeping as with martials, and I already loathe keeping tally of items.
BUILD WISE, martials are MUCH more difficult in system mastery usually...
In actual gameplay though, Casters are infinetely more difficult.
This comes fromt the fact that martials are pretty much:
Check: If within melee range
->True: Initiate full attack
->False: determine distance between martial and enemy
-->If >1 move action: Charge
-->If <1 move action: Move and attack.
Unless your an archer... then you just full attack. Archer is pretty much the most brainless martial to play.
Where as wizards need to think and be meticulous with his spell choice. Additionally, they need to consider what spell would be the best to use, and if it is even worth it to drop a spell.
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It seems like you would agree with me...having a flying mount, or friends to contact across the world are all alternate means of accomplishing functionally the same thing.Our difference, I think, is that I believe they should be guaranteed in the form of class features, not locked behind "DM largesse" because you bought him a case of Ommegang.
You represent your side of our disagreement fairly well, and mine poorly.
I don't think it is DM largesse to provide players, all of them, with the options they require. If you are running a small tightly focused urban campaign that never leaves the city, the hippogriff mount might not be needed, and if you are running a planehopping campaign where each adventure travels through at least three different Outer planes, the hippogriff might not be enough. Since I don't think the DM is intended to be an adversary, I find the idea of 'ensuring' certain concepts like the ability to travel to the adventure to be as basic as ensuring there is a way to eat and breathe available in a campaign. And if the DM is going to screw you out of that on purpose or is too incompetent to provide basic amenities of that sort, I don't find mechanical class rules to be protection from that. What sweet spot exists where the DM is screwing over the martials but letting the casters run rampant over the world that would be fixed by giving the fighter mechanical assurance of a mount? (please don't take this to mean that I do not agree with giving a fighter a mount)
At the same time, I think it's a double standard that wizards don't have to deal with "fireball, Wis 15+, ability to cast burning hands, ability to cast scorching ray" crap. Or that witches (full caster) get demonstrably better versions of Deadly Dealer than magi (partial caster) do and both get better than rogues (noncaster).
My talented fighter has been coming along nicely, although I've not finished it to my satisfaction at this point. If you have any suggestions or areas you notice it lacks attention to, I'd be quite honored to receive your feedback.
And I've never had my players buy me Ommegang, is this something I should look into?
The Miracle thing confuses me. I've never seen a group that hasn't used it for standard action Resurrections. Which is the same idea behind Miracle duplicating Geas/Quest. Or Shades duplicating Summon Monster. I honestly don't see how you can interpret it any other way. Miracle duplicates Geas/Quest. You are not casting Geas/Quest, you are casting Miracle. Miracle explicitly has a standard action casting time. In that standard action, it duplicates Geas/Quest. This is extremely straightforward and very Rules as Intended and Rules as Written. I would hardly call it a "corner case" or "in need of interpretation".
In one of those few cases where I agree with Anzyr...
Yeah. What he said.
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And you have yet to verify what you claim is "by the book".All it says in the description is duplicate the spell. It says nothing about duplicate the spells effect. Duplicating the spell means that everything else comes with it. If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.
Miracle states what it changes. It does not say to extend the casting time unlike Contingency. That omission is very important.
I have a precedent, you do not.
The burden of proof is on you. Until you show proof, your argument has no grounds except "I don't want to be wrong." Which is extremely petty since you lose nothing.
I will reiterate, but considering your history of failing to read posts but replying to them regardless it is likely to go wasted.
Miracle includes the following phrase "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." It however lacks any phrase that suggests an increased Casting Time. Spells do and don't do only what they are described as doing or not doing. There is no DM Fiat unless theres a line like "At the GM’s discretion."
Though I'm sure that someone will mention something about Rule 0 or whatever like that proves anything since Rule 0 is essentially "I can houserule if I want if I don't like something!"
Look, you can think you are right all you want, and you can be right at "your" table all you want, but this isn't the first time this conversation has come up. I have looked at other threads and it has the same thing. The devs have not popped in to clarify it so it can go either way.
The burden is on you to prove me wrong and the burden is on me to prove you wrong. Seeing as it "could" go either way, the whole thing becomes invalid and
LOL!!!
Riiiiiiiiight.......
You have a warped sense of what is childish.
(kyrt-ryder
Go home ShallowSoul, you're drunk.
Here is being childish. )
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And you have yet to verify what you claim is "by the book".All it says in the description is duplicate the spell. It says nothing about duplicate the spells effect. Duplicating the spell means that everything else comes with it. If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.
Miracle states what it changes. It does not say to extend the casting time unlike Contingency. That omission is very important.
I have a precedent, you do not.
The burden of proof is on you. Until you show proof, your argument has no grounds except "I don't want to be wrong." Which is extremely petty since you lose nothing.
I will reiterate, but considering your history of failing to read posts but replying to them regardless it is likely to go wasted.
Miracle includes the following phrase "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." It however lacks any phrase that suggests an increased Casting Time. Spells do and don't do only what they are described as doing or not doing. There is no DM Fiat unless theres a line like "At the GM’s discretion."
Though I'm sure that someone will mention something about Rule 0 or whatever like that proves anything since Rule 0 is essentially "I can houserule if I want if I don't like something!"
Look, you can think you are right all you want, and you can be right at "your" table all you want, but this isn't the first time this conversation has come up. I have looked at other threads and it has the same thing. The devs have not popped in to clarify it so it can go either way.
The burden is on you to prove me wrong and the burden is on me to prove you wrong. Seeing as it "could" go either way, the whole
Are you planning on making a stronger argument at some point? "I interpret Duplicate to mean 'cast'.", isn't a particularly strong argument and is inconsistent with the meaning of the word duplicate. You are welcome to present a stronger argument, but pretending your argument is strong is less welcome.
You are welcome to present a stronger argument, but pretending your argument is strong is less welcome.
I don't think there's actually an argument there.
You are welcome to present a stronger argument, but pretending your argument is strong is less welcome.I don't think there's actually an argument there.
Well... there is an argument. That argument just boils down to "I don't like caster being able to cheat casting times of lower leveled spells with a 9th level spell, because that completely destroys my position and proves Anzyr correct on being able to win with a single swift action."
And that isn't much of an argument.
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I don't think it is DM largesse to provide players, all of them, with the options they require.
First off, thanks for your clarification; when I'm misunderstanding someone, I very much appreciate being corrected, as you did.
That said, I couldn't agree more with the bit copied above, and I think it's worth noticing that you and I both do so as a matter of course, as something the game actively requires. Our difference is, I think (and again, correct me if I'm wrong), in focus and target audience.
Maybe it's because I'm a former schoolteacher, but I go a lot further in the direction that "If X is needed for the game to run, then the rulebook should spell out X," rather than leaving it to each individual DM to figure out for him/herself. In other words, I feel the rules should be, as much as possible, a means of teaching new players and DMs everything they need to know to play the game. Not just "Fighters have d10 HD," but also things like, "Fighters should be getting winged steeds if X and armies if Y," with guidelines.
We get half the book devoted to spells that directly grant narrative power to the casters; I don't find it unreasonable to have a similar page count of options providing narrative power to everyone else, too.
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And you have yet to verify what you claim is "by the book".All it says in the description is duplicate the spell. It says nothing about duplicate the spells effect. Duplicating the spell means that everything else comes with it. If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.
Miracle states what it changes. It does not say to extend the casting time unlike Contingency. That omission is very important.
I have a precedent, you do not.
The burden of proof is on you. Until you show proof, your argument has no grounds except "I don't want to be wrong." Which is extremely petty since you lose nothing.
I will reiterate, but considering your history of failing to read posts but replying to them regardless it is likely to go wasted.
Miracle includes the following phrase "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." It however lacks any phrase that suggests an increased Casting Time. Spells do and don't do only what they are described as doing or not doing. There is no DM Fiat unless theres a line like "At the GM’s discretion."
Though I'm sure that someone will mention something about Rule 0 or whatever like that proves anything since Rule 0 is essentially "I can houserule if I want if I don't like something!"
Look, you can think you are right all you want, and you can be right at "your" table all you want, but this isn't the first time this conversation has come up. I have looked at other threads and it has the same thing. The devs have not popped in to clarify it so it can go either way.
The burden is on you to prove me wrong and the burden is on me to prove you wrong. Seeing as it
I've already stated my argument which nobody has proven wrong, say no it doesn't work that way doesn't count.
We wouldn't be having this argument is the spell says it duplicates a spells effect, but what it says is it duplicates the spell which is the real problem. Casting times and range are all a part of the spell and there is nothing there that says these aren't duplicated as well. It does go out of the way to say it acts as a 9th level spell with regards to DC.
Nobody has yet too come up with an argument that proves this wrong.
You are welcome to present a stronger argument, but pretending your argument is strong is less welcome.I don't think there's actually an argument there.Well... there is an argument. That argument just boils down to "I don't like caster being able to cheat casting times of lower leveled spells with a 9th level spell, because that completely destroys my position and proves Anzyr correct on being able to win with a single swift action."
And that isn't much of an argument.
No, I mean, there really isn't an argument because even that much isn't said.
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Can we get past the miracle exploits already? The whole side conversation is making me uncomfortable, insofar as it makes me want to pull a Dr Deth and say, "Grown-ups don't do that, so there! Discussion over!"
Can we get past the miracle exploits already? The whole side conversation is making me uncomfortable, insofar as it makes me want to pull a Dr Deth and say, "Grown-ups don't do that, so there! Discussion over!"
Using Miracle to subvert the casting times is not an exploit. I have seen it used many many times to get standard (or even Swift) action Resurrections. It's not a corner case, or an exploit. It's a standard and intended use of the spell. Do you consider using Shades to get Standard Action Summon Monsters something that "grown-ups don't do"? Genuinely curious here.
Edit @ your Spoiler: Except it has always been intended for Standard Action Resurrections to get people back into the Fight at high levels, which would be an 11th level spell by your logic. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fairer if you are proposing is true, but we're talking about why casters are overpowered in Pathfinder.
Except it has always been intended for Standard Action Resurrections to get people back into the Fight at high levels, which would be an 11th level spell by your logic. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fairer if you are proposing is true, but we're talking about why casters are overpowered in Pathfinder.
My opinion is that, if swift-action resurrections are an important part of the game, then there should be a 9th level swift-action resurrection spell. We shouldn't have to play with miracle spells for that. The lack of such a spell, if needed, is another flaw in the written rules.
Re: shades as standard action, it's working at a level lower, and also gives a save for 80% effects after that, so I don't really have an issue with it. Yeah, it's still very powerful, but then again, it's a 9th level spell, and the effects are reasonably consistent with that.
Then what do you propose Miracle is for? Since literally what it does is duplicate lower level spells, like Resurrection. Unless you want to get into it's GM Fiat invoking powers that cost 25,000 GP. Which I personally never use.
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***Maybe it's because I'm a former schoolteacher, but I go a lot further in the direction that "If X is needed for the game to run, then the rulebook should spell out X," rather than leaving it to each individual DM to figure out for him/herself.***
Sooooooo much this.
You know what the hardest part of this game is? Being the GM. I've consistently found that I can easily find 5-10 people interested in playing, and none of them are even a little bit interested in the responsibilities of GMing. Part of that frustration comes from threads like these and the related subject matter, that give someone thinking about GMing instant headaches.Am I supposed to do something to help balance these classes out? What do I do if I piss someone off by messing up a perfectly legitimate character with a ruling I thought was helping? Do I need to give certain characters extra goodies so they can keep up with others?
Good GM's learn how to juggle all of the factors, how to make sure the tools for the job are available without turning the game into a cakewalk or undermining a well prepared characters preparedness, but that takes experience and work. Oftentimes the first is in short supply, and even more often the people with the first don't have time in their schedule for the latter.
I very much agree with Kirth that building a comprehensive toolbox into the class instead of leaving it in the GM's hands to build custom toolboxes for those classes who didn't get everything they needed.
Yes, a good GM can do it, but not every GM is a good GM, and normalizing expectations between classes would give them a better chance of being able to get to the point where they are.
I've seen a lot of new GMs play through a scenario once where someone has decided to play a full caster, and make some basic assumptions like "Oh wow, that was way too easy, better remember to kick that up a notch next time" and "Okay, not worth my time putting climbing challenges in a 6th level adventure when everyone's just going to float fly or levitate, so next time I'll skip the climb DC's and throw in a few gargoyles...". Later, they run a similar adventure for a similarly leveled group using the things they've learned, but this group consists of a paladin, a fighter, an inquisitor, a rogue, and a monk. All of a sudden, encounters that were surmountable for the balanced group are nearly impossible for these guys, the GM is scrambling to double-check DCs because he didn't think a group of this level would have issues with a freaking cliff, etc. A lot of GM's careers end or are put on long term hold right there, because they feel like they don't know what they're doing, their party is like "WTF was that?!?!?", and no one's having fun anymore.
Then what do you propose Miracle is for?
Legacy?
So anyone still talking about martials existing at their table?
Except it has always been intended for Standard Action Resurrections to get people back into the Fight at high levels, which would be an 11th level spell by your logic. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fairer if you are proposing is true, but we're talking about why casters are overpowered in Pathfinder.My opinion is that, if swift-action resurrections are an important part of the game, then there should be a 9th level swift-action resurrection spell. We shouldn't have to play with miracle spells for that. The lack of such a spell, if needed, is another flaw in the written rules.
Re: shades as standard action, it's working at a level lower, and also gives a save for 80% effects after that, so I don't really have an issue with it. Yeah, it's still very powerful, but then again, it's a 9th level spell, and the effects are reasonably consistent with that.
Shades can be used to create demiplanes as a standard action and that spell takes hours.
Miracle as written is a standard action. I do not see enough evidence that the RAI is against that.
Geas/Quest is also suppressed/blocked by a first level spell, so it's not like the trick is even that OP outside the hands of a neutral cleric.
I think we came to the consensus that martials do exist but it's largely because either A. Someone wants to play that particular class and B. Most people are using half casting martials like Paladins, Rangers and Inquisitors.
Except it has always been intended for Standard Action Resurrections to get people back into the Fight at high levels, which would be an 11th level spell by your logic. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fairer if you are proposing is true, but we're talking about why casters are overpowered in Pathfinder.My opinion is that, if swift-action resurrections are an important part of the game, then there should be a 9th level swift-action resurrection spell. We shouldn't have to play with miracle spells for that. The lack of such a spell, if needed, is another flaw in the written rules.
Re: shades as standard action, it's working at a level lower, and also gives a save for 80% effects after that, so I don't really have an issue with it. Yeah, it's still very powerful, but then again, it's a 9th level spell, and the effects are reasonably consistent with that.
Shades can be used to create demiplanes as a standard action and that spell takes hours.
Miracle as written is a standard action. I do not see enough evidence that the RAI is against that.
Geas/Quest is also suppressed/blocked by a first level spell, so it's not like the trick is even that OP outside the hands of a neutral cleric.
"What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or did you just want to circumvent an annoying first level spell that wrecks an entire school of magic?"
I think we came to the consensus that martials do exist but it's largely because either A. Someone wants to play that particular class and B. Most people are using half casting martials like Paladins, Rangers and Inquisitors.
Might be accurate to replace the word class in A with the word Concept. The concept is cool imo, the execution... not so hot.
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