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I have a boon that will allow my Nagaji Paladin to take a Giant Chameleon for a mount. Sounds cool, but I haven't used the rules for mounts or animal companions before.
In the Divine Bond description for paladins, it says "This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level", and the Nature Bond feature of Druids it says "an animal companion's Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level."
The base creature is 4 HD and my paladin is level 6. Do I just apply the differences in the table between level 4 and level 6? What about the "special" column, skills and feats - do I add everything there up through level 6, or again just the difference going from level 4 to 6?
Seems like Link, Share Spells and maybe Evasion should be added no matter what, but a 4 HD creature already has some feats and skills and maybe an ability score bump. And do I automatically increase the INT score to 6, as that is the listed minimum for a bonded mount?
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Hello, welcome to the pathfinder non humanoid pathfinder handlers union. Please take a card
The base creature is largely irrelevant. What you have is a Giant chameleon animal companion
You Start with
Size Medium; Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 7; Special Qualities +10 Stealth when still, low-light vision.
Your paladin is level 6 so The 4th level advancement kicks in. The size goes to large, his movement goes to 40, he gets +2 more natural armor, the 1d8 +1 1/2 strength bite A 16 str, 12 dex, Con 16 int 6 (paladin) , wis 11 cha 7 and the tongue attack
Chameleon, Giant
Starting Statistics
Size Large; Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Attacks pull (tongue, 5 ft.), tongue.
Tongue (Ex)
A giant chameleon can grab a foe with its tongue and draw the victim to its mouth. This tongue attack has a reach of 15 feet. The attack does no damage, but allows the creature to grab. A giant chameleon does not gain the grappled condition while using its tongue in this manner.
You then add goodies from the animal chart in the druid section.
He has 6 hd (Base (6*4.5)= 27 + (6*3) 18 from con)= 45 hp.
A +4 BAB
Base Saves of 5 fort Reflex 2 Will 2
6 skill points (1 in linguistics is a good idea)
3 feats
+4 more natural armor
+2 to his strength and dex
and 4 more bonus tricks. ( you technically have 22 tricks, but with a 6 int it probably doesn't matter too much)
Devotion (+4 vs enchantment/charm)
Evasion
+1 floating ability score bonus (con is usually a good idea)
Link (+4 to handle, handle animal faster)
Share spells (you can put self only spells on your chameleon)
So you wind up with
A 18 str, 14 dex, Con 16 int 6 (paladin) , wis 11 cha 7 , and 6 natural armor.
I'd highly recommend getting your lizard masterwork studded leather armor or something better.
I've been thinking about the same thing as Quest for Perfection gives the Axebeak companion. I think you add the difference between the HD the creature comes with and the HD you mount gets. As for feats and skill points, I would figure these are free for you to choose (but this is based purely on my opinion).
I can see it being ruled as the mount comes with those skill points and feats spent. I do hope the player gets to choose the skill points and feats for the entire animal and not from a specific point forward.
As for increasing the int stat to 6 that sound, almost definitely yes as it is part of your classes ability that your mount has an int 6 (I'm 99% sure but it only takes 1% to be wrong).
Hope I have helped in some little way.
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Are there any lists of tricks beyond the dozen listed under handle animal in the CRB? Or doesn't it really matter with 6 INT?
Realistically no. Not only is potentially smarter than your paladin, he's also a mount. When you're riding him you can make a dc 5 ride check to steer him around.
Technically yes (he's an animal companion you still need handle animal)
1 rank +5 charisma +3 trained +2 for a training harness. +11 should be good enough. You'll have an effective +9 if he's hurt, a 1 isn't an automatic failure and the dc is only 10 to do a trick he knows.
It probably also obeys you since you're riding it.
I count 18 tricks based on the INT score plus 3 bonus tricks with a 6th level paladin.
oops, thats what happens when you try to read a line with a hoof...
You can take the serve and combat manuever tricks more than once.
The list is missing the Air walk walk trick found under the spell. Pick it up in case you're ever with a druid.
You'll need the animal archive to make use of the tricks not in the core rule book under handle animal.
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OK, moving on to skills. It looks like the companion skills are considerably weaker than the 4 HD monster:
Climb: +8 for having a climb speed, plus DEX modifier (vs. +15)
Stealth: +10 if still vs. racial +12 (+22 if still)
and only 6 skill ranks to distribute with a level 6 PC
Am I missing something?
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OK, moving on to skills. It looks like the companion skills are considerably weaker than the 4 HD monster:
Climb: +8 for having a climb speed, plus DEX modifier (vs. +15)
Stealth: +10 if still vs. racial +12 (+22 if still)
and only 6 skill ranks to distribute with a level 6 PCAm I missing something?
Your animal isn't the base animal. he spends skill points on his own.
Like all animals Your companion has 2+ int mod skill points per level (minimum 1)
Since his int is 6, it becomes 1 per hit die. 6 hd= 6 skill points and can put them whereever he wants.
Acrobatics* (Dex), Climb* (Str), Fly* (Dex), Perception* (Wis), Stealth* (Dex), and Swim* (Str) are class skills.
I would put 1 point into linguistics, because hissing at your animal companion and having them understand you is fun.
1 point into swim because water happens. (Gives him a swim score of +8 (1 rank +3 trained +4 str)
1 point into stealth because.. why not. he has a +2, +12 when holding still. ( 1+3 trained +2 dex -4 from large size)
1 point into acrobatics because you might have to jump something. +6(+10) ( 1 rank +3 trained +2 dex, +4 more to jump from speed)
2 points into climb, because spider horse, spider horse, does whatever a spider horse does... +17(2 ranks +3 trained + 4 strength +8 I have a climb speed)
You're also going to want an exotic saddle.
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Yeah, makes sense to spread the skill points around to get the +3 on as many class skills as he can actually use. Obviously not fly, but maybe put one in perception (the paladin currently has a penalty) instead of 2 in climb.
Also considering putting the ability score point in WIS to get a further bonus, or in INT to get more combat maneuver tricks.
You are right, the mount is smarter than the paladin. Before adding the point, he beats or ties the paladin in everything but CHA:
P: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 5, WIS 8, CHA 20
C: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 6, WIS 11, CHA 7
For feats I'm looking at Power Attack / Improved Overrun / Charge Through or Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack. Not sure about Improved Initiative - won't he typically have to go at the same time as the Paladin?
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Yeah, makes sense to spread the skill points around to get the +3 on as many class skills as he can actually use. Obviously not fly, but maybe put one in perception (the paladin currently has a penalty) instead of 2 in climb.
Also considering putting the ability score point in WIS to get a further bonus, or in INT to get more combat maneuver tricks.
You are right, the mount is smarter than the paladin. Before adding the point, he beats or ties the paladin in everything but CHA:
P: STR 18, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 5, WIS 8, CHA 20
C: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 6, WIS 11, CHA 7
Hmmmm.. maybe its the cider talking, but aren't you short a point there? You had a 4th level stat boost which presumably brought the cha up to 20 so you started with
STR: 16+2 DEX: 10 CON: 12 INT: 5 WIS: 8 CHA: 17+2
10+0+2+-4+-2+13= 19
... I think he collected you because you're pretty and shiny.
For feats I'm looking at Power Attack / Improved Overrun / Charge Through or Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack.
What feats does the Nagaji have?
Not sure about Improved Initiative - won't he typically have to go at the same time as the Paladin?
Yes. Someone may tell you that an animal companion has to go on its own. This is incorrect for a mount though, it says it right in the combat section.
And don't forget, what is his name, so the party knows who to tell to mind the paladin.
I would not take armor proficiency. Armor proficiency light is a trap because you can just get masterwork studded leather barding or mitrhal chain barding. The mount takes the non proficiency penalty. The non proficiency penalty is zero.
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I would not take armor proficiency. Armor proficiency light is a trap because you can just get masterwork studded leather barding or mitrhal chain barding. The mount takes the non proficiency penalty. The non proficiency penalty is zero.
Ahhhh, you saved me a feat my friend. I thought I would let you know your advice helps others too. Not that you don't know it, I thought I would post it to let you know. I know this for the mithril buckler but I did not think out of the box for the armor, and I was going to get the feat and use light armor anyway, silly me.
The character is second level right now but the idea is to use Shinning Knight with Oath against Fiends(I know I loose at ninth level but the spells at first and third and the eighth level ability is too good to pass up with all the evil outsiders in PFS).
The character is a Half Orc. I know, Tieflings and Aasimars are popular but the idea is to use the Beast Rider feat for a flying mount, which will take a lot of work to make the mount fly with me on it and be effective. The more thinking out of the box the better, thanks again.
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Ahhhh, you saved me a feat my friend. I thought I would let you know your advice helps others too. Not that you don't know it, I thought I would post it to let you know. I know this for the mithril buckler but I did not think out of the box for the armor, and I was going to get the feat and use light armor anyway, silly me.
Good to know the union work is paying off. !
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I came to the same conclusion last night about masterwork studded leather. It says the price is 4x the human-sized version. Does the masterwork cost also need to be multiplied?
To answer the question about the Paladin feats: power attack, cleave and exotic weapon (elven curved blade). The latter is already fire-forged steel, +1 and keen. 15-20 threat range, +11/+6(1d10+7) or power attack +9/+4(1d10+13) plus 1d4 fire in some cases. He won't have a good ride check, but a flanking buddy who can get behind enemy lines would be good. Thinking about power attack, improved overrun and toughness now for the mount.
Yes, the paladin is pretty and shiny. He started with the 20 CHA, and put the stat boost in wisdom to reduce the penalty from the original score of 7. But it looks like I screwed up the math and have to fix it:
STR: 16+2 DEX: 10 CON: 12 INT: 7-2 WIS: 7 CHA: 18+2
10+0+2+-4+-4+17= 21
Considering he has only one chronicle that's not a GM chronicle, and it was his first, I'll just rebuild him the way you've indicated and I'll have another point to put somewhere. That's a tough call. Probably leave INT alone (I have Storyteller for knowledge skill checks). The rest would all lead to some benefit with a 2nd point at level 8. I am leaning towards getting shinier.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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If you have access to Ultimate Equipment, Darkleaf Cloth Leather Lamellar (DCLL) armor is also a good choice for barding. The base armor is 40g less than chain shirt, and doubling that for non-humanoid saves you 80g before doubling that for large means saving 160g even before the special material which is also 250g cheaper than mithril for light armor. So medium humanoid DCLL is 810g as opposed to 1100 for Mithril Chain Shirt (MCS) So for large barding it'd be 990g vs 1400g
But again, you need UE for that.
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I came to the same conclusion last night about masterwork studded leather. It says the price is 4x the human-sized version. Does the masterwork cost also need to be multiplied?
I'm pretty sure you're buying a masterwork version of large studded leather armor, making the cost (25X4)+150= 250.
For special materials, it never made sense to me to pay more for a chunk of mithral because it was being shaped into horse armor, but it did make sense to charge more because of the size. (there's more of it after all) but I don't think there's an official ruling on it.
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Interesting. So with Eric's suggestion I am considering 2 choices:
1) Masterwork Studded Leather. +3 bonus, +5 max DEX, 0 armor check penalty, 20% spell failure, cost 250 gp (25 x 4 + 150 for masterwork, I think), weight (4x human) 80 lbs
2) DCLL. +4 bonus, +5 max DEX, 0 armor check penalty, 10% spell failure, cost 990 gp (60 x 4 + 750 includes masterwork), weight (4x human / 2) 50 lbs
The latter option is 750 gp more for essentially just another +1 to the armor bonus. Slightly a better deal than paying 1000 gp for +1 on the studded leather. But as I don't currently have a copy of UE and I already need to pick up Bestiary 3 and possibly Animal Archive, I think I'll start with the studded leather and consider upgrading later.
Of course, if I want him to match the paladin, I should upgrade his armor to dragon hide - but I want to keep the mount in light armor for maximum movement.
It appears that the light load limit for a large quadruped with 18 STR is 300 lbs, so mounted movement looks like it will be lower. An average build Nagaji male with gear would be slightly over 300 lbs without any weight for the mount's gear. With armor (80 lbs), saddle (40 lbs) and riding harness (2 lbs), even a small female Nagaji (220 lbs with current gear) would put the mount into the medium load category.
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OK, got it figured out. Put the mount's stat boost in STR and it can carry another 50 lbs and still have only a light load. A point in INT really shouldn't be needed as I'll put a rank in linguistics so it can converse with the paladin (still not as smart) in Draconic.
Switching the Nagaji to a female isn't a big deal either. Not a mammal, so its sex wouldn't have been obvious even to the players who saw it wrestle a monitor lizard bare-chested in the one module where I played it. And if they could tell a female Nagaji's voice from a male's, having never met one before, we'll just pretend she used the bluff skill with her big CHA modifier.
Bit & Bridle, Training Harness and Studded Leather Armor: 83 lbs.
Exotic Riding Saddle: 30 lbs (upgrade to military at next STR point).
Saddle Bags: 8 lbs. Room for 20 lbs of stuff or 1000 platinum pieces.
Nagaji weapons and armor: 46 lbs.
Female Nagaji (minimum height and weight): 174 lbs.
Total weight: 341 lbs. (light load). Room for another 9 lbs of money or other gear before moving up to a medium load.
If I get UE I can reduce the armor weight and improve the saddle and AC and maybe make snake-girl a little larger.
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Thanks for the help.
I'm still thinking about what to name the mount for Chuss'tith.
In contention right now I have:
- Pae-Shinth
- Merthy
- Temprinth
It has to be something related to paladinly virtues, and which also incorporates the paladin's lithsp.
Leaning towards the first choice - seems to fit with a creature that can hide using camouflage while waiting to attack. Not that this ability will have much of a game effect, other than maybe the mount appearing when called from a place where it blended in with the décor.
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It's tempting to take a skill focus and another rank in climb, to move the modifier up from +16 to +20. With the ability to take 10 all the time, the mount can already move at full speed (40') along walls (and maybe the corners of ceilings). At +20, ceilings and slippery walls add to the list of surfaces that don't require a check to traverse.
But for getting behind opponents, the improved overrun feat is a more direct route that avoids AoO if we lose initiative. Figure 10' to get a large creature up on the wall, 10' up to get beyond normal reach, and the same amounts to get back down (unless jumping down 10' costs nothing) means a double move would typically be required to get behind an opponent. Of course, the mount could start on the wall or ceiling sometimes - especially if we are in a tight tunnel where there is otherwise not much space near the front of the party.
Lastly, as I am rebuilding the paladin anyway, I'm wondering if I should move some of the favored class bonuses from hit points into ride. If I want to do some fighting while mounted, I need to be able to make a DC 10 most of the time. With no Dex bonus, I'd get a +4 for the 1st rank, but would still need 5 more to always get a 10 or higher. I'd have to give up almost all the extra hit points to do it. For handle animal, the first rank gives me +10 (harness, link, trained bonus), so I'm OK for the known tricks.
I can put the leftover PC ability score point in Dex, but will need another at level 8 before it affects skills and AC. And at that point the mount gets another skill and feat, both of which I might use to boost climb.
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Thintherity. 'Specially since chameleons change color to display their emotional state...
Definitely incorporates the lithsp - perhaps too much or too comical for repeating the name frequently.
Two other options come to mind:
Truth. Easy to pronounce and understand for both Nagaji and common races. And we could talk about the never-ending battle for Truth, Chuss'tith and the Golarion Way.
Liberty. No lithsp, but still good. Perhaps I acquired the trained mount from an Andoran freedom fighter who rescued it from being caged in a menagerie. Then people in distant worlds could hear of our exploits and aspire to have Liberty and Chuss'tith for all.
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One last question. When a medium PC is riding on a large mount, how do you determine which square the PC is in? If we use the mount's movement to move past an opponent that is normally entitled to an AoO, can it attack either the mount or the rider, and does the rider get separate move actions before or after the mount carries her?
Example: mount overruns opponent (a move with an attack), rider does fast dismount (free action), rider moves or takes 5' step and then attacks, all in one round? With improved overrun, there is no AoO on the mount from the target creature, but could the rider be subject to AoO, or the mount subject to AoO from non-targeted creatures?
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A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
Poor horses, I think the rules just said their buts look big... anyway, you share your mounts space. You're in every square that its in, not any one particular square. So you're a large creature holding a medium reach weapon. If the dm doesn't use the 5 foot exception for reach weapons, yes, there's some cuthulesque 3 dimensional shapes there.
This gets a little screwy when you and the mount want to charge. Normally you hit with a lance and you have to stop, but in your case you can both charge, lance the creature, and then have chameleon snag it with his tongue and pull him in. If you have the chamelon tongue it first it might get pulled in past your lances reach.
Its important to remember when you fight like that that your shield is a weapon. If someone is inside of reach with your lance , smack them with the shield.