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Why is it a bad idea to say you have a mundane solution to a problem?
The proposed stat array you failed to quote leaves the low-level wizard without a mundane solution.
Or the ability to get to 5th level, where you're proposing he use half of his daily 3rd level spell allotment for a 5 minute duration fly spell that he may not need.
It's one thing to name a spell that would be perfect for each scenario named, but it's another to actually posses the spell and be in a situation to cast it.
The fact you have spells at all is pretty nifty though, and some spells are more flexible than others. Between UMD, a possible heads up, and good spell selection, you can be pretty prepared!
Also, arcanist apparently will get the power to have any spell they want at the cost of an arcane point according to a post by Jason.
Why is it a bad idea to say you have a mundane solution to a problem?The proposed stat array you failed to quote leaves the low-level wizard without a mundane solution.
Or the ability to get to 5th level, where you're proposing he use half of his daily 3rd level spell allotment for a 5 minute duration fly spell that he may not need.
So its an insane idea that he can use rope or a potion of fly?
Between UMD, a possible heads up, and good spell selection, you can be pretty prepared!I agree.
My fighter has UMD, and is generally pretty prepared.
And no doubt that cost him an arm and leg compared to what an actual caster spends.
That said, this game does expect a certain degree of magic even outside of the caster classes. At least in flight, imo.
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So its an insane idea that he can use rope or a potion of fly?
It is an insane suggestion that they have all items in hand and ready to use at all times.
Both scenarios I describe place players in a position where they would have no advance notice they would need those resources. Also, if your rocking potions with 3rd level spells (that a non-caster is equally able to use) in a tier 1-2 scenario, you've spent resources on little else.
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It's one thing to name a spell that would be perfect for each scenario named, but it's another to actually posses the spell and be in a situation to cast it.The fact you have spells at all is pretty nifty though, and some spells are more flexible than others. Between UMD, a possible heads up, and good spell selection, you can be pretty prepared!
Also, arcanist apparently will get the power to have any spell they want at the cost of an arcane point according to a post by Jason.
Being prepared doesn't make you prepared for everything.
Being prepared doesn't make you prepared for everything.It's one thing to name a spell that would be perfect for each scenario named, but it's another to actually posses the spell and be in a situation to cast it.The fact you have spells at all is pretty nifty though, and some spells are more flexible than others. Between UMD, a possible heads up, and good spell selection, you can be pretty prepared!
Also, arcanist apparently will get the power to have any spell they want at the cost of an arcane point according to a post by Jason.
Who said it did?
I'm surprised no one noticed/commented on the whole 9th level spells by 14th level thing.
I'm surprised no one noticed/commented on the whole 9th level spells by 14th level thing.
Sometimes more reasonable post get read over to try and tear apart faulty logic or just downplay someone else's statement.
Got to have your priorities here!
If the spherewalker has no levels in a spellcasting class, she instead gains one 1st-level domain spell slot, which she may use to prepare spells from any of their gods domains as if she were a cleric. Her caster level is equal to twice her class level. With each new spherewalker level, she gains a new spell slot for a spell level equal to her class level. A 5th-level spherewalker would thus have a spell slot for one domain spell from 1st to 5th level spells. The number of bonus spells and spell save DCs are set by the spherewalker’s Wisdom score.
Spells: When a divine scion gains a level, she gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of divine scion to the level of whatever other divine spellcasting class she has.
5 levels fighter, 5 levels spherewalker, 4 levels Devine scion.
This is all made by pazio, too.
(Suddenly glad I save some of my posts.)
The only reason people don't see how truly overpowered the Wizard can be is due to a number of reasons that I'll list in order of likeliness that you haven't seen a Wizard that tells the universe to go play in the corner while the grown-ups are talking.
1. System Mastery - Most people don't have the system mastery to play an all powerful wizard. I mean ya its cool to have infinite Simulacrums without impacting your wealth by level, but be honest how many people that play do you think know how to do that?
2. Gentleman's Agreement - Once we realize how limited the number of players with the system mastery to play an all power wizard is, we have to take into account Gentleman's Agreements. Sure I could sit down at my friends game and play a Wizard that obviates everything he prepared, but you know what'd that make me? A jerk. Most players who have the requisite system mastery realize this and thus opt not to show up to a game with a character who can say "A God am I" and be completely correct.
3. Level of Game - Let me preface this by being perfectly clear about something... low level wizards are still very strong. But most players do not play games at the highest of levels where the Wizard reaches the zenith of his arbitrary power. If Wizards at the tables you play are only making it to 12th level or so... your missing 8 levels of quadratic power.
4. Houserules - When people talk about the all powerful Wizard, their talking about the kind of Wizard that you can play with the rules that are in the books. That being said, please note that just because a GM can say "Sorry Anzyr, even though the rules let you make infinite Simulacrums of yourself, in my game you can't." does not make Wizard any weaker. The very fact that you need to houserule that (or preferably get a Gentlemen's Agreement) indicates that the class is so strong that you need to change the rules to accommodate it.
5. Fun - I had originally intended to place this higher on the list, but its...
its posts like this that make me wonder whether or not any opponent makes their saves, ever.
its posts like this that make me wonder whether or not any opponent makes their saves, ever.
Where's the fun in supposing THAT ever happens?
its posts like this that make me wonder whether or not any opponent makes their saves, ever.
There are spells targeting each of the three saves, and pretty much everyone is bound to have at least one of those be a weak save. Meanwhile, jacking up the save DC simply requires improving your casting stat, which pretty much every caster is going to do anyway.
Past the ubiquitous cloak of resistance (which pretty much obsoletes every other cloak in the rules because of the magic item slot thing), most improvements to saves are in the form of feats, which have to be chosen separately for each save category. And even if you do that, the casters still have Spell Focus and so on, if we're talking specialized boosts.
I got back and the thread grew by two more pages so I'm going to react to reactions to my last post and then the more recent posts.
To the reactions to my last post; My caster players range from clever to rock stupid but they are not always in a situation that is in their favor enough to plan ahead 100% of the time. This is mostly because I run games assuming that NPCs know that casters exist and take measures to counter it. Sometimes there's a random element. Sometimes mooks make it a war of attrition. Sometimes there is an enemy caster counter divining towards them. In situations with a bunch of anti-caster fighters readying actions against their spells the only times my players survived is when they have a party tank that can do mundane mook control and force them to react to something other than spells. (allowing room for casters to cast.) otherwise they get chased down and grappled, chased towards a trap or fall victim to any number of things that cut off access to material, verbal or somatic components.
That said while I don't think casters are as big of a problem in home games as they are made out to be, (especially when third party martial support is in the equation) I do think that they are a huge problem. Planning encounters for casters becomes tedious and sometimes very annoying to the players when it seems like almost every enemy targets the caster first. Also spells just do way too much to bend rules and allow exploits and beyond that each new spell in a product just makes casters more powerful while combat feats and other mundane resources are often pointless due to the amount of playstyles that have mandetory feats that have a mountain of prerequisites. Also spells have no prerequisites so you can just pick and choose the best ones and just go from there. You can spend your entire time choosing blasting spells and then all of a sudden you can create another dimension. Then there's the reliance on full attacking too?
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Wait a minute...that's not a word! I call shenanagins.
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It's one thing to name a spell that would be perfect for each scenario named, but it's another to actually posses the spell and be in a situation to cast it.This is why potions and scrolls exist. Really this isn't rocket science.
LOL!
It's exactly the same situation. There is no difference between having the right spells memorized/known and having the right scrolls and potions on hand.
If you think it's difficult to have proper scroll selection.
......
It's one thing to name a spell that would be perfect for each scenario named, but it's another to actually posses the spell and be in a situation to cast it.This is why potions and scrolls exist. Really this isn't rocket science.LOL!
It's exactly the same situation. There is no difference between having the right spells memorized/known and having the right scrolls and potions on hand.
Eh, he does have a point. CL is static on potions and scrolls, plus there's a lot of spells that can't be put into a potion. That said, some spells aren't really impacted by the caster level much, if at all. You can have 186 potions stuffed in a Handy Haversack, but no way will you have that many spell slots prepped. That's a lot of extra 'just in case' spells to be carrying around.
Otoh, any regular person or monster can use potions, ditto with scrolls if they have decent UMD. WBL makes that less of a caster issue than an all around game complexity issue.
If the spherewalker has no levels in a spellcasting class, she instead gains one 1st-level domain spell slot, which she may use to prepare spells from any of their gods domains as if she were a cleric. Her caster level is equal to twice her class level. With each new spherewalker level, she gains a new spell slot for a spell level equal to her class level. A 5th-level spherewalker would thus have a spell slot for one domain spell from 1st to 5th level spells. The number of bonus spells and spell save DCs are set by the spherewalker’s Wisdom score.Spells: When a divine scion gains a level, she gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of divine scion to the level of whatever other divine spellcasting class she has.5 levels fighter, 5 levels spherewalker, 4 levels Devine scion.
This is all made by pazio, too.
So?
In any case, these are from two separate non-core supplements.
The duty of a DM is to decide what sources to allow.
And a fighter would give up a LOT in order to become a one trick pony in a 14th level game.
Heh.
Just becusse i can do it, doesn't mean it's good.
Or matters.
And yes, it is up to the dm what to do.
I find "all pazio" gm's kinda... Annoying.
So?
In any case, these are from two separate non-core supplements.
The duty of a DM is to decide what sources to allow.
And a fighter would give up a LOT in order to become a one trick pony in a 14th level game.
There's an interesting question: if nothing outside of core, just the CRB / GMG / Beastiary I, is allowed, do wizards and casters in general still have the ability to completely wreck game balance throughout most of their career? Naturally, I'm asking this of those who said 'Aye' to the concept when including non-core stuff.
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It's one thing to name a spell that would be perfect for each scenario named, but it's another to actually posses the spell and be in a situation to cast it.This is why potions and scrolls exist. Really this isn't rocket science.LOL!
It's exactly the same situation. There is no difference between having the right spells memorized/known and having the right scrolls and potions on hand.
Eh, he does have a point. CL is static on potions and scrolls, plus there's a lot of spells that can't be put into a potion. That said, some spells aren't really impacted by the caster level much, if at all. You can have 186 potions stuffed in a Handy Haversack, but no way will you have that many spell slots prepped. That's a lot of extra 'just in case' spells to be carrying around.
Otoh, any regular person or monster can use potions, ditto with scrolls if they have decent UMD. WBL makes that less of a caster issue than an all around game complexity issue.
It's not such a matter of using them but having the right ones available. You are still having to guess what potions or scrolls you "might" need. Also, they still use up actions and such.
You are right about potions though, there are only so many spells that you can actually make a potion that will replicate it.
There's an interesting question: if nothing outside of core, just the CRB / GMG / Beastiary I, is allowed, do wizards and casters in general still have the ability to completely wreck game balance through most of their career? Naturally, I'm asking this of those who said 'Aye' to the concept when including non-core stuff.So?
In any case, these are from two separate non-core supplements.
The duty of a DM is to decide what sources to allow.
And a fighter would give up a LOT in order to become a one trick pony in a 14th level game.
At very high end, sure. 9th level spells are pretty darn unbalancing. They are meant to be that way.
And of course, if you include strained reading of RAW, like the Sno-cone wish machine, you also have issues.
But I don't suggest allowing just CRB. Pretty much, I think the benchmark for these debates should be anything on the PRD. That's a fair and reasonable benchmark.
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There's an interesting question: if nothing outside of core, just the CRB / GMG / Beastiary I, is allowed, do wizards and casters in general still have the ability to completely wreck game balance through most of their career? Naturally, I'm asking this of those who said 'Aye' to the concept when including non-core stuff.So?
In any case, these are from two separate non-core supplements.
The duty of a DM is to decide what sources to allow.
And a fighter would give up a LOT in order to become a one trick pony in a 14th level game.
You don't even have to ban everything outside of core, just ban the things that could create a problem.
There's an interesting question: if nothing outside of core, just the CRB / GMG / Beastiary I, is allowed, do wizards and casters in general still have the ability to completely wreck game balance through most of their career? Naturally, I'm asking this of those who said 'Aye' to the concept when including non-core stuff.So?
In any case, these are from two separate non-core supplements.
The duty of a DM is to decide what sources to allow.
And a fighter would give up a LOT in order to become a one trick pony in a 14th level game.
Ughh, why do I keep letting myself get roped back in.
As I have already said, yes. In fact, I suspect the disparity between full casters (and particularly wizards vs non full casters) is much greater in a core only games. The Classic God wizard is a core only concept. They got enough good feats, abilities, spells, etc. to function nearly flawlessly.
Granted, they have gained more powers, but by comparison I think the other classes have gained more of a face lift. I mean, the monk was neigh unplayable before archetypes, and now Zen Archer is one of the "broken" classes...even though its only an archetype.
You don't even have to ban everything outside of core, just ban the things that could create a problem.There's an interesting question: if nothing outside of core, just the CRB / GMG / Beastiary I, is allowed, do wizards and casters in general still have the ability to completely wreck game balance through most of their career? Naturally, I'm asking this of those who said 'Aye' to the concept when including non-core stuff.So?
In any case, these are from two separate non-core supplements.
The duty of a DM is to decide what sources to allow.
And a fighter would give up a LOT in order to become a one trick pony in a 14th level game.
What are the things that objectively cause problems? That's an honest questions because I've never gotten past level 13 and games I GM stop at level 12.
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Spellcasters typically don't break games. That's just the mindset of vocal martial fan boys who are tired of having their few good martial abilities nerfed by Paizo time and time again.
If Paizo would up the power/versatility of martials somewhat, and stop nerfing them, a lot of these threads would disappear I'd wager.
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Is it just me, or has this whole thing gone off topic for the past two or three pages?
For some bizarre reason, I'm reminded of a story I read on the old WotC forums during the 3.0 days where a wizard was challenged to a duel in an arena like situation. Prior to combat, the wizard casts stone to mud on the back wall of the arena. First round of combat, wizard casts repel, slamming the warrior into the mud. Second round, the wizard casts mud to stone. So a 13th level wizard can end combat in two rounds and only has to worry about a failed will save. Melee classes could also kill the average wizard in two rounds, but they have to make several attack rolls, not one.
Now, this hardly constitutes proof that spellcasters are the better. As others have pointed out, if your spells are mismatched for the current situation, you might have problems. What it does demonstrate though is that spellcasters have a resource that other classes don't - imagination. The previous example of the druid who tunneled underneath 20 encounters to jump to the scenario end point is a perfect example of this. Spells allow you to be clever in ways that your fighter/barbarian/paladin classes simply cannot do. Spells aren't the problem, its the inventiveness of the PCs that that are the problem.
The flip side to all of this though is that PCs are not always that creative. Some of them are, but IMHO, this is the minority and not the rule. I played a scenario at a convention a few weeks back and it was amazing to see that players were wandering off on their own (ignoring the "don't split the party" rule) and then wondering why they were near death trying to fight solo against four monsters. I've also run into a lot of people who simply don't understand battle tactics. Players get easily focused on things like flank and cover because there is a numerical bonus associated with them in the rulebook. However, they don't realize that ideas like creating a chokepoint or holding a line have greater long term benefits. Perhaps I...
Soooooooo the wizard actually gets to do something before the combat even begins.
Yeah, that really shows us that the wizard needs an advantage to pull it off.