It's not really arrogance at this point. If I had a dime for every time someone has tried to correct me only to be wrong I'd have... well a couple of dollars. Now if I got another dime every time they didn't cite any rules when making their assertions... then I'd be rolling in... well more dollars anyway. That's like saying a someone who usually wins quiz shows is arrogant for saying "Well I win a lot of Quiz shows." Ya that guys sounds real arrogant.
Invisibility.Now, yes, it burns a resource, but think about Invisibility for a moment.
What does it do?
It replaces a skill. Granted, it works better on those who are already stealthy, but you are essentially making someone with 0 ranks in Stealth stomping around in full plate as good at Stealth as a Dex based Rogue of up to 10th level (10 ranks, 3 class skill, 7 Dex).
That is stupid. INSANELY STUPID spell design. A spell should not be able to DO that.
And that's one of the most innocuous examples of a broken spell I can think of.
It won't likely disrupt your game, no. You likely will never notice a direct problem with it, which is what makes...
And see, that's the issue. That game is built around spells. The invisibility spell was part of the game for TWENTY YEARS before anyone but a Thief could stealth.
So, it's not that Invisibility breaks stealth, it's that stealth is a cheap backwards way of getting some cheap low level version of Invisibility.
It's EXACTLY what a spell should be able to do.
So, you have it backwards. The issue is that a mere skill can give you some attempt at doing what a spell should do.
D&D is a game based on MAGIC, not SKILLS.
There are skill-based games. D&D is not one of them.
Uh... not if your requirements are "Anything published by Paizo is allowed." Because you don't need that one guy to exist to pick that spell.
If you are allowing an anything goes campaign, then of course you'll run into issues. This is why the GM and players should be talking about what they want in their games.
As far as this gentleman's agreement bit, we have a bit of an overall agreement -- to wit, if anyone is making the game less fun for the rest of the table, they should knock it the @#%$# off. That goes for the GM dropping dragons on you or players exploiting anything they can find. It isn't cool or funny or fun for anyone else at the table. We ask that you amuse yourself on your own time or find somewhere else to do it.
Communication and the idea that this is a cooperative game go a long way.
I like playing god casters.
Because winning is, by definition, everything.
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How many wizards actually heavily invest in Stealth? Few, I'd wager. And even those that do are unlikely invest in it AS heavily as a stealth-based rogue.Considering my wizards tend to start the game with 8 skill points per level (2+5+1 for being human) and go up from there, and stealth helps with invisibility and placement? Yes I frequently invest in stealth as heavily as a Rogue. Not uncommon to take the trait to make it a class skill either.
Hmmm,
What point buy are you using?
Even if the ring didn't work, and your logic on that is extremely sketchy, it doesnt matter. Most of the strength boost is coming from other effects and so all you do is make the caster look for something better to magic jar into. There are no shortage of big, strong, stupid monsters which you can make use of.
Blood Money remains stupidly broken.
That's funny, I don't remember making any claims about the Magic Jar bit. I also don't see an explanation of how my logic on this is sketchy. Not that I don't trust you, of course, but perhaps could you spell it out for me?
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Doesn't really matter Shadowsoul. If its 15 point buy my dex is worse but my Int is the same.
As far as the point buy goes, it varies between GMs, ranging from 15 to 40 (I played a martial in that campaign though) or rolling.
Take us through this spellcaster then. 8 points each level is good but if want other skills that are worth a damn then you are spreading it thin.
Take us through this spellcaster then. 8 points each level is good but if want other skills that are worth a damn then you are spreading it thin.Doesn't really matter Shadowsoul. If its 15 point buy my dex is worse but my Int is the same.
As far as the point buy goes, it varies between GMs, ranging from 15 to 40 (I played a martial in that campaign though) or rolling.
Maybe he's counting FCB on that 15 point buy.
Black tentacles is a pretty good reason.
Not so broken that it gets endless attention, but it destroys up other casters, and on a good roll destroys melee foes too.
No sr, no save.
Heck. Conjuration in general is a pretty decent reason.
I wonder how much of the "Martial vs. Caster disparity" argument would disappear overnight if SR suddenly worked against all spells, from all schools, everywhere. My guess a lot of it.
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Str 7
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 20
Wis 11
Cha 7
I hope you never need to carry gear, even at low level, and never run into anything that drains strength or charisma. (Remind me, at what level do shadows start appearing?)
Any game I run, this character is going to have severe problems surviving to high enough level to get the spells people are complaining about. Not because I will target him, but because there are going to be a lot of challenges he simply cannot survive. Even basic skills like climbing or swimming can be life or death at low level, when a wizard won't have the magic to compensate.
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Spellcraft
Knowledge: Arcana
Knowledge: The Planes
Knowledge: Dungeoneering
Perception
Stealth
Fly (Until level 5 these are miscellaneous ranks, displayed below, but after level 5 this skill gets a lot of focus)
Miscellaneous (scattering a point here or there as I feel its needed on a level by level basis.) If the game is starting at level 1 I often put a point into Craft: [weapons, armor, or bows] and make cheap gear for the party. Swim is also a common choice at first level, to make sure I don't drown if I fall into deep water.
Well you only have 8 points and if you want Craft and Swim as well then you are out of luck. Drop 1 and that leaves 1 point in each skill. Stealth and Perception are not class based so no +3 unless you take a trait that gives you the skill as a class skill. I'm going to assume your Str, Con, and Cha are going to be awful, which means your Diplomacy and Bluff will stink if you are caught while sneaking, and your HP will be crap. Good luck trying to break out of a grip if you are captured. The rogue can do all these things without having to spend resources or prepare. Sure your Wizard can try and be stealthy but it takes more than that when being a good scout.
Well, let's see.
Peri-blooded Aasimar Wizard 3/Evangelist 7. 20 int baseline, +4 int item, +2 from levels up brings us to 26, which gives us 8 skill ranks per level.
6 skill ranks from the wizard levels, 35 from the evangelist levels brings us to 42 before int modifier.
8 * 10 = 80 skill ranks. Gives us a total of 122 ranks, or a little over 12 ranks per level.
Evangelist gives me an additional two class skills on top of the class skills from wizard and evangelist. I have another two class skills from traits. If I need more class skills, I can take Additional Traits with one of the five or so feats I have free.
I also cast as a 9th level wizard.
I wonder how much of the "Martial vs. Caster disparity" argument would disappear overnight if SR suddenly worked against all spells, from all schools, everywhere. My guess a lot of it.
Still wouldn't remove casters ability to say "There's a spell for that!" so much as make it so there were less options to bypass SR. If you really think blasting was the only problem then well...
SR also mostly exist at a higher level and not everything has it. I'd imagine it would put them on a treadmill of sorts, as they have to keep up with SR, which is a bad thing for anyone imo.
Play the game for the first 5 levels as a fighter.
Take 5 levels in spherewalker.
Take 4 levels in Devine scion.
Congrats, you can now cast miracle at level 14, at 18th caster level.
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I wonder how much of the "Martial vs. Caster disparity" argument would disappear overnight if SR suddenly worked against all spells, from all schools, everywhere. My guess a lot of it.Still wouldn't remove casters ability to say "There's a spell for that!" so much as make it so there were less options to bypass SR. If you really think blasting was the only problem then well...
SR also mostly exist at a higher level and not everything has it. I'd imagine it would put them on a treadmill of sorts, as they have to keep up with SR, which is a bad thing for anyone imo.
Casters would focus more tightly on overcoming both DR & SR.
Just like martial characters focus on overcoming AC.All you do is encourage optimization and kill the desire for some players to diversify into more than just a numbers based arms race.
Swim is important in /some/ campaigns.
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Climb and swim, seriously? At low levels they are resolved by such rare objects as a knotted rope or a scroll/potion of touch of the sea. At higher levels they are simply irrelevant.
Only if you know EVERYTHING in advance.
You won't be playing Schrodinger's wizard at my table. I'll know what you have prepared. What magic you've spent resources on ahead of time and where you're keeping those resources.
After you've been bull rushed over the side of a ship or are trying to climb a cliff to avoid being trampled by a herd of bison, it's a bad idea to say, "I've got a knotted rope in by backpack."
Swim is important in /some/ campaigns.
In those your playing an aquatic race or looking for a way to get a swim speed/breath underwater imo. The nice thing about spells is it can give you those things!
After you've been bull rushed over the side of a ship or are hanging are trying to climb a cliff to avoid being trampled by a herd of bison, it's a bad idea to say, "I've got a knotted rope in by backpack."
Do you ban overland flight?
After you've been bull rushed over the side of a ship or are hanging are trying to climb a cliff to avoid being trampled by a herd of bison, it's a bad idea to say, "I've got a knotted rope in by backpack."
Why is it a bad idea to say you have a mundane solution to a problem?
At higher levels your probably flying anyway. This game expects you to have a way to fly by like... 5th. Crazy.
I wonder how much of the "Martial vs. Caster disparity" argument would disappear overnight if SR suddenly worked against all spells, from all schools, everywhere. My guess a lot of it.Still wouldn't remove casters ability to say "There's a spell for that!" so much as make it so there were less options to bypass SR. If you really think blasting was the only problem then well...
SR also mostly exist at a higher level and not everything has it. I'd imagine it would put them on a treadmill of sorts, as they have to keep up with SR, which is a bad thing for anyone imo.
Oh no, from experience it's not blasters I'm afraid of our GMs running. It's just that high-level is where the game tends to break down as far as defined power capabilities. A demon being able to shatter your Emergency Force Dome or see through your Mirror Images because it was essentially able to use its SR offensively sounds like a fantastic balancing idea.
Yeah...
There is one thing i try and do away with in games i run. Flight.
But that's a house-rule thing.
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Note that it's the duty of a DM to place limits on what is allowed in his game. Not allowing spells from other sources than the PRD or as they are encountered is NOT a "Houserule" or a "gentleman's agreement".
Would you assume a 100 point buy? Would you assume Pking? Would you assume starting at 20th level and full mythic tiers? No? How many points do you get? What level do you start at?
It's the duty of the DM to decide that. Just like it's his duty to decide what sources are allowed.
Assuming everything from every source is allowed is as bad as me deciding I am going to start with a 20th level 100 pt build fighter.
As OP as full spell casters can be, they pale into insignificance compared to a simple Rogue that just kills all the PC's in their sleep- every single day, day after day, as fast as the other players can produce new Characters. Is that against the rules? "No PKing" is NOT a "house rule" nor a "gentleman's agreement"- it's one of the things the DM decides what he starts the game. It's a reasonable assumption, just like you will assume a 1st level start, sure.
Sure, there are a few things, like the Sno-cone Wish machine, that are maybe possible by a strained reading of RAW- but which are clearly not RAI. And, I even started a thread in Rules Questions asking the Team to clarify the wording.
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Would you assume a 100 point buy?
This is two below max, for a random fact that no-one cares about.
In other words, 18 nearly across the board, but with one 17, and 2 points left over.
Oh no, from experience it's not blasters I'm afraid of our GMs running. It's just that high-level is where the game tends to break down as far as defined power capabilities. A demon being able to shatter your Emergency Force Dome or see through your Mirror Images because it was essentially able to use its SR offensively sounds like a fantastic balancing idea.I wonder how much of the "Martial vs. Caster disparity" argument would disappear overnight if SR suddenly worked against all spells, from all schools, everywhere. My guess a lot of it.Still wouldn't remove casters ability to say "There's a spell for that!" so much as make it so there were less options to bypass SR. If you really think blasting was the only problem then well...
SR also mostly exist at a higher level and not everything has it. I'd imagine it would put them on a treadmill of sorts, as they have to keep up with SR, which is a bad thing for anyone imo.
Right, well you didn't suggest using SR offensively or doing anything at all to fix the problems aside from blasting. SR doesn't have a thing to do with Mirror Images because its not offensive. It would mean your now doing extra rolling against SR and mages will do everything they can to pierce it putting them on a treadmill, rather than actually doing anything to fix things. Just adds another layer of difficulty, which never actually solves a problem.
Repeat after me: Blood Money OP.
I love how casters are broken because of non-core-rules spells like blood money, misreading simulacrum, ignoring the consequences of planar binding, and adding timeless quality to demiplanes when you can't.
Anyone going to post real reasons? Like how LoTR would have been a 5 minute movie if Gandolf used invisibility on him and Frodo and then teleported to mount doom.
Some people are misinterpreting me. (unrelated to quoted post)
1. non-core-rules means non-PRD not non-CRB.
2. Simulacrum's power is determined by the GM. The spell ask for the GM to make a monster and the changing HD rules in the Bestiary cover basically everything. It's a spell that demands GM rulings and can change with every table and every game. The general rules just do not cover the particulars, there is no RAW use for the spell.
3. not really going to get into the plane one, but the last time my GM and I looked at those rules you couldn't make it timeless.
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Swim is important in /some/ campaigns.In those your playing an aquatic race or looking for a way to get a swim speed/breath underwater imo. The nice thing about spells is it can give you those things!
Or your playing published Paizo content, which puts characters in a wide array of situations.
Both of the situations I posed are found in published tier 1-2 content, neither are AP specific.
(Has only once played a module, and never got past the first encounter before the game fell apart)