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I can't believe we've spent over a hundred posts essentially saying
"Planar Binding!"
"Nuh-uh, they'll arm themselves with farmers and turn on you!"
Let's try this again-
There's an example where we can all agree on how the abilities work and there aren't some mysterious off screen consequences that will be debated into perpetuity.
Anyone else have relatively straight-forward examples of spellcasting options derailing or similarly undermining an adventure?
How do you handle creating adventures that challenge a character with such a comprehensive toolbox without creating a situation that could prove unsolvable or almost certainly fatal for characters who don't have the appropriate tools?
Another pretty straight-forward example at very low levels, also from a Paizo AP:
Almost the very first puzzle in the Mummy's Mask involves a shaft into a tomb with walls crafted in such a way as to create a brutally difficult climb DC. Everyone other than the Fighter had about a 15% chance of success, and an 80% chance of falling 50 feet and taking 5d6 damage, quite possibly lethal at that level. The Wizard, after watching the Fighter (who I believe had closer to a 40% chance thanks to having a rank in Climb) biff his check and land unconscious and dying at the bottom, stepped off the ledge, cast feather fall, and then fed the Fighter a potion. The challenge that was incredibly difficult for the rest of the group was literally a breeze for the caster.
RAW wish factories are totally something that can happen, so why doesnt every evil country do it?Because the game designers never thought of it, or 'pooh-poohed' along the lines of "No gentleman would ever do that!"
Probably because the extraplanar creatures dont like it and have methods to counter abusers.Hey, it would be really handy if those methods were outlined in the rules, instead of being left up in the air, wouldn't it?
The rules don't explicitely state that walking into a palace, killing some people, and then teleporting away have specific consequences.
This isn't something that needs to be in rules.
RAW wish factories are totally something that can happen, so why doesnt every evil country do it?
Probably because the extraplanar creaturws dont like it and have methods to counter abusers.
The reason why published kingdoms are not using the wish factory is because it's not what the writer wanted to do with the country.
Putting aside wish factories for the moment, there are a number of fairly obvious magical applications that would completely change Golarion as we know it - the implications of Teleportation Circles and long-distance travelling and shipping alone are staggering.
The reason why Golarion as written hasn't been changed that way is because the design of Golarion as a fairly traditional fantasy setting (on a continental scale - individiual countries certainly show a great deal of variation) is incompatible with a world that routinely uses magic as technology.
Anyone else have relatively straight-forward examples of spellcasting options derailing or similarly undermining an adventure?
I wrote a post earlier with a few thoughts on this. Link here.
Consequences is fine, provided those consequences are CR appropriate encounters. Then it's fantastic!
Is anyone in charge of those? I am not as familiar with those outsiders? Do greater outsiders use them like a ruler uses peasants?
CR guidelines are what I use when designing a scenario. If the characters walks into the royal palace and punches the captain of the guard, CR guidelines no longer apply. The character has initiated an action outside the confines of the scenario and will deal with the consequences.
Hm.
CR guidelines are what I use when designing a scenario. If the characters walks into the royal palace and punches the captain of the guard, CR guidelines no longer apply. The character has initiated an action outside the confines of the scenario and will deal with the consequences.Hey loo, something I actually agree with Artanthos on. Sandbox settings with static encounters are an entirely valid way of playing. The world does not necessarily scale to your level. As long as you give the players fair warning then it isn't a big deal.
If my campaign setting has a big nasty swamp in which lairs an adult black dragon and the locals warn anyone travelling near the place that it is extremely dangerous but the players choose to go there anyway then they live with the consequences whether they are level 1 or 10.
AP's may not run that way but I have run and played in plenty of games which do.
Oh believe me I understand sandbox settings with static encounters. As long as the players were informed of that.
But that doesn't sound like what he was doing. The player did something he didn't want him to do so now he's going to exterminate.
If its not a sandbox then I should hope the Players have reasonable encounters regardless of what occurs short of player stupidity.
"He did something outside of what I planned and so I can do whatever I want now" is what he posted.
The spell doesn't say the creature will come back for revenge. It says it might come back for revenge. You know what else might come back for revenge? Every single thing the Fighter stabs.And ignoring something explicitly written into the spell description is GM Fiat.
Now, if the wizard was bargaining in good faith and offering fair compensation, revenge would be unlikely.
The wizard would also be paying for the acquired power out of obtained wealth.
You IMPRISONED the creature. It's impossible to bargain in good faith. By your interpretation, the creature would never not seek revenge.
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Anyone else have relatively straight-forward examples of spellcasting options derailing or similarly undermining an adventure?I wrote a post earlier with a few thoughts on this. Link here.
Skulls and Shackles is a great example of a campaign that just gets annihilated by full casters who do anything other than blast. In fact, I think someone pointed out earlier that even the blasters can undermine whole swaths of the campaign by clearing out crews of mooks with a few well placed AoE's, or preventing a ship from escaping or fighting back effectively by casting warp wood.
There's just so many options granted through spellcasting that a character without spellcasting can't emulate, and many spellcasters have a much forgiving learning curve. If a Fighter picks a bad feat, he's stuck with it for at least the next 4 levels unles he spends time and money and your GM allows you to use the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign. If the Druid picks a spell that proves to not be as useful as anticipated they can try a different selection the very next day and keep refining their list until they've got one that is fully optimized to their adventure.
If the GM knows what the Fighter can do today, he knows what the Fighter can do tomorrow and can plan accordingly. To be able to account for what a Cleric or Druid might do tomorrow, I have to know every single spell they have access to in every sourcebook I've allowed, and be able to try and guess how they might put those to use. It's not quite as bad with a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Oracle who have to learn their spells first, but they still have a good selection and they can switch up their tactics on me completely at a moment's notice. I had a player who ran a Wizard once whose favorite trick was always keeping me guessing about whether I'd face some kind of polymorphed battle monster, a cunning enchanter/illusionist, or a wily conjurere who'd transport himself past any obstacles that got in his way or conjure up someone to do the work for him, assuming he couldn't just transport the obstacle somewhere. He had 3 different personas who all had robust sets of tactics and played in completely different ways. It was lik I never knew what caster was going to show up for the game that night, but they were really all the same Wizard just focusing on differents combinations from his spellbook.
You IMPRISONED the creature. It's impossible to bargain in good faith. By your interpretation, the creature would never not seek revenge.You could always break the circle as soon as it arrived. I wouldn't recommend it but it is possible.
That doesn't really change the fact that you took the creature from Point A to Point B against its will to begin with.
You gotta draw the line somewhere. I like to think that it's in a spot that allows the spell to be functional.
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As to Blood Money.
The little trick doesn't work like some of you think it does.
First off: You can't take more ability damage than you have in your score. For example: If your strength is 10 then the max damage you can take is actually 10. You can't actually take 50 points of Str damage with anything below a 50 score.
Second: The moment you hit zero you fall unconscious so you never have the chance to cast the second spell.
Now does the ring help you a bit, yes it does, but it doesn't work like some of you think it does.
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Anyone else have relatively straight-forward examples of spellcasting options derailing or similarly undermining an adventure?I wrote a post earlier with a few thoughts on this. Link here.Skulls and Shackles is a great example of a campaign that just gets annihilated by full casters who do anything other than blast. In fact, I think someone pointed out earlier that even the blasters can undermine whole swaths of the campaign by clearing out crews of mooks with a few well placed AoE's, or preventing a ship from escaping or fighting back effectively by casting warp wood.
There's just so many options granted through spellcasting that a character without spellcasting can't emulate, and many spellcasters have a much forgiving learning curve. If a Fighter picks a bad feat, he's stuck with it for at least the next 4 levels unles he spends time and money and your GM allows you to use the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign. If the Druid picks a spell that proves to not be as useful as anticipated they can try a different selection the very next day and keep refining their list until they've got one that is fully optimized to their adventure.
If the GM knows what the Fighter can do today, he knows what the Fighter can do tomorrow and can plan accordingly. To be able to account for what a Cleric or Druid might do tomorrow, I have to know every single spell they have access to in every sourcebook I've allowed, and be able to try and guess how they might put those to use. It's not quite as bad with a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Oracle who have to learn their spells first, but they still have a good selection and they can switch up their tactics on me completely at a moment's notice. I had a player who ran a Wizard once whose favorite trick was always keeping me guessing about whether I'd face some kind of polymorphed battle monster, a cunning...
So why not have an enemy caster on the enemy ships?
As to Blood Money.
The little trick doesn't work like some of you think it does.
First off: You can't take more ability damage than you have in your score. For example: If your strength is 10 then the max damage you can take is actually 10. You can't actually take 50 points of Str damage with anything below a 50 score.
Second: The moment you hit zero you fall unconscious so you never have the chance to cast the second spell.
Now does the ring help you a bit, yes it does, but it doesn't work like some of you think it does.
That's why I get 51 STR. So that I don't go unconscious. And yes... the Ring works exactly like I think because thats is "how it works".
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So why not have an enemy caster on the enemy ships?
Because its a bad thing if the PCs boat sinks I'd imagine. The alternative of not using any fireballs, gentleman agreement or not, would require there to be a problem in the first place.
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The spell doesn't say the creature will come back for revenge. It says it might come back for revenge. You know what else might come back for revenge? Every single thing the Fighter stabs.
Planar Binding is also partly under the DM's control. The spell doesn't have to say anything about the creature wanting revenge, but at the same time, it's not against the rules either.
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Short answer: No, but only if you enforce a lot of the other rules and strategies that are usually either thought of as extemporaneous or are something that either doesn't come up until mid level and are not really discussed in the standard GM's guide.
Walkthrough list:
1. Avoid Schrodinger's Wizard: Look we all know that with the ability to prep theoretically any spell that your chosen prep caster is capable of learning they can in theory cake walk through any encounter they are aware of. The key points in that sentence though are "aware of" and "in theory". "Aware of" means so long as they don't know exactly everything they are going to go up against in a day and every eventuality that will lead them to those encounters (i.e. what order etc.) they can still botch their prep. Now grant it some builds can handle this better than others (conjurers with summoning focus will probably walk a little easier then lets say necromancers or enchanters who focus on death effects or mind control) but still that unease and uncertainty creates the discomfort and room for you to make sure they don't just waltz through everything. Second "In Theory", remember that no matter how much you prep no plan does or should survive every/any encounter wholly intact. That means that any fight they come into should not just play out exactly as they planned the vast majority of the time, players brick rolls, enemies dominate their rolls, initiative goes bad for your party, etc. All of these lead to plan alterations and sometimes total upendings them and you as a gm and they as players need to accept that occurring. Remember as a GM a little chaos on the field goes a long way to helping avoid that stuff.
2. Remember the extemporaneous rules!: It may sound dumb but encumbrance can be the absolute bane of an arcane caster. Have a player who wants to dump Str to an 8 for boosted Int of 20 on their wizard? Well remember that when they want to pick up a quarterstaff, crossbow and a pack of bolts, and a wizard's kit puts him at 30 lbs. and into his medium load. On top of that it treats as medium armor and doubles his penalties. Now I know that seems small but you've now just put that wizard at a 20ft movement speed, a -6 armor check penalty, and should give him some arcane spell failure. Now I know this sounds like extemporaneous book keeping but your player is already playing a class about book keeping (in the case of a wizard literally) and it does help balance out the class. At low levels it keeps them packing light and makes them rely on other players (hell remember that 50 coins, ANY 50 COINS, weigh a pound!) and as they move up in levels makes them have to invest (or at least consider investing in) some items to reduce this problem like a handy haversack, bag of holding, or even a mwk backpack. That investment can help keep them at level with the rest of the party and keep them from buying up all those juicy magic items that boost their casting power that they can usually invest in more easily because of their lack of armor or weapon purchases they would have to buy with other classes to stay competitive.
3. Don't let them cheat!: I know this goes without saying but some players can do this and it takes away a lot of the challenge of playing the class. Make sure they write down all the spells they have prepped for the day and that you or another player you trust has seen them. Don't let them just change them on the fly, it kills the challenge of the class and helps create a lot of the problems people face (i.e. Shrodinger's wizard).
4.Don't let your party play classes you are not comfortable with: Now I know this usually is applied to non base classes but it really applies here too. Wizards, druids, clerics, and even summoners can be some of the most complex and difficult classes to run, requiring a lot of system mastery and understanding of the class both on the side of the player and the GM who has to GM those characters every game. Bad wizards often come about when the player knows enough to play them and the GM doesn't know enough to stop them up to and including many of the rules that govern those classes (encumbrance, expensive materials, focuses, their action economy, etc.). I've seen so many GM's get sick of wizards because the player was taking advantage of the GM's lack of understanding of the class and the GM wasn't aware of it or the player wasn't and that is where a lot of this hate can come from. If you don't feel comfortable with having a PC prep caster (or PC caster in general) don't let them play them for a while. During that time take the time to brush up on the classes and get comfortable with them, hell use them as bad guys a few times and test out a few builds you know you will either see or are worried about and break yourself into them.
5. Talk to your players: This goes without saying but talk to players about what is and isn't legal and if they are hurting the experience make sure to talk to them before it boils over.
6.Play as hard as they decide to play: If you have a player who only enjoys playing those classes when they get to truly outsmart or out strategize their enemies, let them. But remember you can always and in this case should go harder on that player. Use hidden archers with readied actions to interrupt their spells, sleight of hand and steal combat maneuvers to jack their spell components pouches, light back packs full of scrolls on fire, etc. I know this can sound a bit excessive but if your player is actually looking to test their mental might you should give it to them. Second, remember that those characters live in a world that is both full of magic wielded by a minority and a lot of people who have no clue how to use it. That non magical majority should have figured out some ways to handle them up to and including burning magical items to protect themselves. What does an illiterate bandit need a scroll for if he can't use it, he can't sell it quick, and letting your wizard keep it could kill him?
Now that's just a few, things can get crazier as they level up, you add more non core books, and your viable monster options open up but that should give you a good start. Have any questions or anything feel free to hit me up and I'd be glad to help.
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That's why I get 51 STR. So that I don't go unconscious. And yes... the Ring works exactly like I think because thats is "how it works".As to Blood Money.
The little trick doesn't work like some of you think it does.
First off: You can't take more ability damage than you have in your score. For example: If your strength is 10 then the max damage you can take is actually 10. You can't actually take 50 points of Str damage with anything below a 50 score.
Second: The moment you hit zero you fall unconscious so you never have the chance to cast the second spell.
Now does the ring help you a bit, yes it does, but it doesn't work like some of you think it does.
This is all the ring does.
Alternating diamonds and rubies stud this band of white gold.
A minor ring of fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary ability penalties the wearer takes by 2 points and ability drain by 1 point. If an effect targets multiple ability scores (for example, exhaustion, fatigue, or touch of idiocy), the ring reduces the damage, drain, or penalty for all ability scores.
A major ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 4 points and reduces ability drain by 2 points.
A greater ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 6 points and reduces ability drain by 3 points.
Want to explain how you are going to get a 51 strength?
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So why not have an enemy caster on the enemy ships?Because its a bad thing if the PCs boat sinks I'd imagine. The alternative of not using any fireballs, gentleman agreement or not, would require there to be a problem in the first place.
Sorry but this don't fly. The great thing about Pathfinder is that whatever the PC's use, the NPC's can use as well.
Sorry but this don't fly. The great thing about Pathfinder is that whatever the PC's use, the NPC's can use as well.So why not have an enemy caster on the enemy ships?Because its a bad thing if the PCs boat sinks I'd imagine. The alternative of not using any fireballs, gentleman agreement or not, would require there to be a problem in the first place.
Did I say otherwise? I just said it would be a bad thing if their boat sank.
Not always a good idea to use those things.
You know what does fly though? People who cast fly on themselves!
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So why not have an enemy caster on the enemy ships?Because its a bad thing if the PCs boat sinks I'd imagine. The alternative of not using any fireballs, gentleman agreement or not, would require there to be a problem in the first place.
Very much this. Now we've got a situation where every encounter is about whether my NPC casters are able to outmaneuver the party caster. Seems like a pretty good way to sideline and marginalize the party even more if half the night involves the wizards or druids on either ship spending round after round trying to counter each other.
Druid: "I call lightning to hammer their ship into submission!"
GM: "Okay... He wasn't able to counter since he couldn't see you over the rail, so he attempts to dispel... he's successful."
Druid: "Hmmmm.... Bring us around closer! I'll use warp wood to take out their keel and leave them floundering!"
Fighter: "Sweet mother of god, is this still happening? I left for soda like an hour ago!"
Rogue: "He's not even pretending to let us raise sails or mess with the rigging any more... I'm pretty sure he's just trying to get one of them to run out of spells so the rest of us can start playing again. How's your swim check...?"
Also note that the solution to "Casters are marginalizing the non-casters" was "Add more enemy casters". If the solution to a problem caused by magic is to add more magic, it starts being pretty clear that magic isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.
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Hm.
CR guidelines are what I use when designing a scenario. If the characters walks into the royal palace and punches the captain of the guard, CR guidelines no longer apply. The character has initiated an action outside the confines of the scenario and will deal with the consequences.
Not at all.
If the player chooses to instigate a fight with someone 10 levels higher than he is, the DM is not going to rebuild the NPC to match the characters level. You go out of your way to make enemies, you deal with those enemies.
That's why I get 51 STR. So that I don't go unconscious. And yes... the Ring works exactly like I think because thats is "how it works".As to Blood Money.
The little trick doesn't work like some of you think it does.
First off: You can't take more ability damage than you have in your score. For example: If your strength is 10 then the max damage you can take is actually 10. You can't actually take 50 points of Str damage with anything below a 50 score.
Second: The moment you hit zero you fall unconscious so you never have the chance to cast the second spell.
Now does the ring help you a bit, yes it does, but it doesn't work like some of you think it does.
This is all the ring does.
Alternating diamonds and rubies stud this band of white gold.
A minor ring of fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary ability penalties the wearer takes by 2 points and ability drain by 1 point. If an effect targets multiple ability scores (for example, exhaustion, fatigue, or touch of idiocy), the ring reduces the damage, drain, or penalty for all ability scores.
A major ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 4 points and reduces ability drain by 2 points.
A greater ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 6 points and reduces ability drain by 3 points.
Want to explain how you are going to get a 51 strength?
9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).
I've since found other fun STR enhancers like Eaglesoul and Pesh and the profane bonus could be higher with the correct binding/simulacrum, but that's still more then enough if you feel the need to go to 7 or even 5 STR.
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You IMPRISONED the creature. It's impossible to bargain in good faith. By your interpretation, the creature would never not seek revenge.You could always break the circle as soon as it arrived. I wouldn't recommend it but it is possible.That doesn't really change the fact that you took the creature from Point A to Point B against its will to begin with.
You gotta draw the line somewhere. I like to think that it's in a spot that allows the spell to be functional.
I agree.
The GM has to draw the line somewhere.
The problem is, the players arguing casters inherently unbalance the game are insisting they get to draw all the lines and make all their interpretations and the GM has to sit quietly in the corner and agree with them. Even whey they attempt actions outside of RAW, gloss over limitations written into the spells, and decide all context not directly supporting their position is null and void.
Hm.
CR guidelines are what I use when designing a scenario. If the characters walks into the royal palace and punches the captain of the guard, CR guidelines no longer apply. The character has initiated an action outside the confines of the scenario and will deal with the consequences.Not at all.
If the player chooses to instigate a fight with someone 10 levels higher than he is, the DM is not going to rebuild the NPC to match the characters level. You go out of your way to make enemies, you deal with those enemies.
Efreets are not 10 levels higher then even the lowest Wizard who can bind them. Nothing a Wizard can bind is in fact due to the HD limits on them.
You can avoid a lot of that but just starting off by magic jarring into a fire giant with its base 31 strength. Even better it is the creature taking the strength damage. Given its +9 will save it also isn't difficult to take control of such a creature at this level.
Oh I completely agree, Magic Jar/Marionette Possession is easily the way to go. That's just a "How to get 51 STR while standing around in your own body" thing.
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Efreets are not 10 levels higher then even the lowest Wizard who can bind them. Nothing a Wizard can bind is in fact due to the HD limits on them.Hm.
CR guidelines are what I use when designing a scenario. If the characters walks into the royal palace and punches the captain of the guard, CR guidelines no longer apply. The character has initiated an action outside the confines of the scenario and will deal with the consequences.Not at all.
If the player chooses to instigate a fight with someone 10 levels higher than he is, the DM is not going to rebuild the NPC to match the characters level. You go out of your way to make enemies, you deal with those enemies.
And in the situation I described, Even a single efreeti was still going to cause the PC's serious serious problems, using only the abilities listed in his stat block.
If you don't want wishes leveled against you, don't piss off a creature capable to granting wishes.
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I notice that you are continuing to ignore the fact that it is trivially possible to bind all sorts of powerful servants which have no means whatsoever of seeking revenge and little to no chance of resisting the initial binding.I wonder why that is.
With a limitation of one task per binding, you won't have an army. You will have a string of servants. Open ended "Serve Me" commands only go so far. They are subject to both creature interpretation and time limits.
If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete through its own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free (with the same chance to resist as when it was trapped). Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
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So why not have an enemy caster on the enemy ships?Because its a bad thing if the PCs boat sinks I'd imagine. The alternative of not using any fireballs, gentleman agreement or not, would require there to be a problem in the first place.Very much this. Now we've got a situation where every encounter is about whether my NPC casters are able to outmaneuver the party caster. Seems like a pretty good way to sideline and marginalize the party even more if half the night involves the wizards or druids on either ship spending round after round trying to counter each other.
Druid: "I call lightning to hammer their ship into submission!"
GM: "Okay... He wasn't able to counter since he couldn't see you over the rail, so he attempts to dispel... he's successful."
Druid: "Hmmmm.... Bring us around closer! I'll use warp wood to take out their keel and leave them floundering!"
Fighter: "Sweet mother of god, is this still happening? I left for soda like an hour ago!"
Rogue: "He's not even pretending to let us raise sails or mess with the rigging any more... I'm pretty sure he's just trying to get one of them to run out of spells so the rest of us can start playing again. How's your swim check...?"
Also note that the solution to "Casters are marginalizing the non-casters" was "Add more enemy casters". If the solution to a problem caused by magic is to add more magic, it starts being pretty clear that magic isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.
Or maybe the enemy wizard casts Mass Fly and all the mooks fly over to the PC's ship and attacks.
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You IMPRISONED the creature. It's impossible to bargain in good faith. By your interpretation, the creature would never not seek revenge.You could always break the circle as soon as it arrived. I wouldn't recommend it but it is possible.That doesn't really change the fact that you took the creature from Point A to Point B against its will to begin with.
You gotta draw the line somewhere. I like to think that it's in a spot that allows the spell to be functional.
I agree.
The GM has to draw the line somewhere.
The problem is, the players arguing casters inherently unbalance the game are insisting they get to draw all the lines and make all their interpretations and the GM has to sit quietly in the corner and agree with them. Even whey they attempt actions outside of RAW, gloss over limitations written into the spells, and decide all context not directly supporting their position is null and void.
The rules support Wish Bindings, Sno-cone Wish machines, Blood Money free materials and Paragon Surging all of the spells. It's not an issue of context or limitations. It's an issue of those things being what the spells actually do. I respect all of a spells limitations, after all if I didn't there'd be no value to using those spells. I'm not going to argue Paragon Surge gives me two feats or anything, or that you only need to take 1 STR damage to cast Wish with Blood Money. I follow the rules, and the rules say that Wizards are overpowered.
Efreets are not 10 levels higher then even the lowest Wizard who can bind them. Nothing a Wizard can bind is in fact due to the HD limits on them.Hm.
CR guidelines are what I use when designing a scenario. If the characters walks into the royal palace and punches the captain of the guard, CR guidelines no longer apply. The character has initiated an action outside the confines of the scenario and will deal with the consequences.Not at all.
If the player chooses to instigate a fight with someone 10 levels higher than he is, the DM is not going to rebuild the NPC to match the characters level. You go out of your way to make enemies, you deal with those enemies.
And in the situation I described, Even a single efreeti was still going to cause the PC's serious serious problems, using only the abilities listed in his stat block.
If you don't want wishes leveled against you, don't piss off a creature capable to granting wishes.
Uh, that creature is very dead. What exactly is it going to do? Or are you going with "It doesn't say Dead creatures can't take actions"?
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Or maybe the enemy wizard casts Mass Fly and all the mooks fly over to the PC's ship and attacks.
Also note that the solution to "Casters are marginalizing the non-casters" was "Add more enemy casters". If the solution to a problem caused by magic is to add more magic, it starts being pretty clear that magic isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.
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That's why I get 51 STR. So that I don't go unconscious. And yes... the Ring works exactly like I think because thats is "how it works".As to Blood Money.
The little trick doesn't work like some of you think it does.
First off: You can't take more ability damage than you have in your score. For example: If your strength is 10 then the max damage you can take is actually 10. You can't actually take 50 points of Str damage with anything below a 50 score.
Second: The moment you hit zero you fall unconscious so you never have the chance to cast the second spell.
Now does the ring help you a bit, yes it does, but it doesn't work like some of you think it does.
This is all the ring does.
Alternating diamonds and rubies stud this band of white gold.
A minor ring of fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary ability penalties the wearer takes by 2 points and ability drain by 1 point. If an effect targets multiple ability scores (for example, exhaustion, fatigue, or touch of idiocy), the ring reduces the damage, drain, or penalty for all ability scores.
A major ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 4 points and reduces ability drain by 2 points.
A greater ring of inner fortitude reduces ability damage or temporary penalties by 6 points and reduces ability drain by 3 points.
Want to explain how you are going to get a 51 strength?
9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).I've since found other fun STR enhancers like...
You need to state where each comes from and what it is and how much this stuff costs.
I often wonder if some of the people I have discussion with on here lack the ability to search the SRD.
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Uh, that creature is very dead. What exactly is it going to do? Or are you going with "It doesn't say Dead creatures can't take actions"?
The one that instantly disappeared upon task completion?
I'm not sure when you killed him, but is was not before the Planar Binding transported him back to his place of origin.
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I feel like many of the martial players would like if Wizards played like Shadowcasters from 3.5 Tome of Magic...
** spoiler omitted **
This. For me I think it makes way more sense to expand on knowledge you have rather than just picking out the best spells.
I am biased, however, because when I play casters I tend to stick with a gimmick even if it leads to suboptimal spell selections.
But if there were spell trees like there are feat trees there would be a lot less complaining.
So why not have an enemy caster on the enemy ships?Because its a bad thing if the PCs boat sinks I'd imagine. The alternative of not using any fireballs, gentleman agreement or not, would require there to be a problem in the first place.Very much this. Now we've got a situation where every encounter is about whether my NPC casters are able to outmaneuver the party caster. Seems like a pretty good way to sideline and marginalize the party even more if half the night involves the wizards or druids on either ship spending round after round trying to counter each other.
Druid: "I call lightning to hammer their ship into submission!"
GM: "Okay... He wasn't able to counter since he couldn't see you over the rail, so he attempts to dispel... he's successful."
Druid: "Hmmmm.... Bring us around closer! I'll use warp wood to take out their keel and leave them floundering!"
Fighter: "Sweet mother of god, is this still happening? I left for soda like an hour ago!"
Rogue: "He's not even pretending to let us raise sails or mess with the rigging any more... I'm pretty sure he's just trying to get one of them to run out of spells so the rest of us can start playing again. How's your swim check...?"
Also note that the solution to "Casters are marginalizing the non-casters" was "Add more enemy casters". If the solution to a problem caused by magic is to add more magic, it starts being pretty clear that magic isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.
plus this
The problem is, the players arguing casters inherently unbalance the game are insisting they get to draw all the lines and make all their interpretations and the GM has to sit quietly in the corner and agree with them. Even whey they attempt actions outside of RAW, gloss over limitations written into the spells, and decide all context not directly supporting their position is null and void.
Equals a very sucky evening.
I haven't seen casters break the game in PF, but I have seen them take hours out of each session for rule discussions.
Some people like Anzyr would rather believe the rules do not limit them and their caster's. They rather have a "gentleman's agreement" where they agree not to break the game and the GM agrees not to threaten the caster in anyway.
That's pathetic and is not how the rules are outlined.