
Ishpumalibu |
Hi, so one of my campaigns just ended, and my group wants to play a low level of magic in the next one. There will be no artifacts, or major wondrous items. Also classes for the world will be limited in the magic department as well with the most powerful being classes with up to 6th level spells. The pcs are going to be mythic, to help with the lack of raise dead.
I was just seeing if anyone had thoughts on this, or experience.

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To keep that 'low magic' feel the GM should probably ban all full casters. Thus, no Wizards, Witches, Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers, or Oracles. Banning the Summoner would be wise, too, given their over-the-top power level.
Whatever happens, don't allow Ye Olde Magik Shoppe. Magic items are so rare and valuable that there is no secondary market.
Start at level one, and expect to advance slowly. No campaign is 'low magic' when 3/4 spell casters reach high levels.
I expect the Bard & Inquisitor will get a lot of love.
Probably the biggest effect, play-wise, will be the lack of out-of-combat healing. Expect your PCs to routinely spend days or weeks recovering from wounds. This is a good thing that comes with many RP options.

Bacon666 |
The quick fix you don't want to hear is play another system. Pathfinder like D&D is heavily build on magic.
Since you write here, I guess you want it to be pathfinder you could use the following limits:
No spells over level X (this is where you need to find the limit... 4 or 6 would be my guess)
No magic item crafting!
No magic item shopping!

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This is pretty easy to do without messing up CR or anything at all.
1. Ban 9-level casters, and the Summoner (which is a 9 level caster pretending to be a 6 level one).
2. Ban crafting Feats that make permanent items. Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, or Craft Wand should be fine, but no Craft Wondrous Item.
3. Only allow the purchase of mundane items or consumables (the ones you'd let the PCs get the Feats for). And no stuff from banned classes either.
4. Make sure the PCs keep up with WBL in treasure that's pretty good for their builds. Or institute a system of scaling bonuses to make up for not having it (Mythic might work for this, but isn't designed for it).
5. Do nothing else.
That ought to get a low magic feel without the PC group actually being inherently less powerful for the most part. It also still allows Raise Dead to be available (a Warpriest can have it at 13th level, and a Paladin at 8th if he invests in Ultimate Mercy...a Hunter could get Reincarnate at 10th level)...if notably rarer.
There are some interesting implications in a world that works that way, but I think they'd be fun to explore.

GreyWolfLord |

I'd start looking at HD as a base instead of CR...with the HD you'll still have to factor a LOT of other things (such as how many spells or spell like abilities an enemy has, AC, special defenses and attacks, etc), but HD can give a general idea of the power level of an enemy in relation to level.
Next off, you don't have to restrict casters, let them be a wizard or sorcerer or cleric...but I WOULD put higher restrictions on item creation. Perhaps make it like the game, but that they ALSO have to collect special materials that are harder to obtain in order to create an item (for example, for a potion of healing maybe the need the blood of a black unicorn which is the lead stallion of a herd, or for a scroll of sleep they need the skin of a goblin chief to inscribe it on...or things similar...so not really easy things to simply go out and buy or obtain).
Obviously no magic shops and other things like that, and make it so that magic items of course are much more rare and hard to find.

Under A Bleeding Sun |

I ran a mid level magic steampunk game a few years back. This probably isn't really what your looking for but here's what i did:
1) No spells of above level 5 though you still receive spell slots.
2) Ban all reality bending spells up to that point. No teleport, fly and i vastly limited some of the enchantment school.
3) I made a complex item creation system where effects where either tech, magic or psionic. You're probably better off banning crafting unless you have a lot of time.
If I was going for low magic I'd probably:
1) cap spells at level 4.
2) Ban a lot more spells
3) Ban magic item creation
4) Make "buying" magic items pretty rare. Cloaks of resist +1 aren't a dime a dozen.

Ishpumalibu |
Well i know they will want to go into epic play, so I won't be doing e6, but it's still not a bad idea. I appreciate all the input so far guys, i started going through magic items that had spells above 6th and getting rid of those, just out of curiosity, why would you ban summoner? It's not an issue i think because i don't think anyone wants to play one. So far i have a barbarian/fighter being built, a holy hunter passing, and a player who usually plays a sorcerer gish having a hard time figuring out what to do, but leaning toward magus reluctantly.

Thefuzzy1 |
I ran a low magic game with no full casters, a spell point system that adds fatigue when low on points and no magic crafting feats for permanent items but I did allow the feat for craft rolls to make magic weapons and armor to have master craftsmen to be able to make some gear without "magic". I ended up with one inquisitor, two rangers and a barbarian grappler, also I limited the creatures they fought to as few SLA and magic capable as possible some of the most painful encounters was with a three hobgoblins with bows and the four "war hounds" (riding dogs) that they had with them, and a river crossing with some Gar that attacked them half way. It made for a longer game as time between encounters increased for healing but it was a lot of fun

MrSin |

Well i know they will want to go into epic play, so I won't be doing e6, but it's still not a bad idea.
So you want epic but not magic or E6?
My advice would be to play another game that isn't magic dependent or give people inherent bonuses to help with the loss of all those magic items that keep you alive. That might help give more of an epic feeling.

Ishpumalibu |
Ishpumalibu wrote:Well i know they will want to go into epic play, so I won't be doing e6, but it's still not a bad idea.So you want epic but not magic or E6?
My advice would be to play another game that isn't magic dependent or give people inherent bonuses to help with the loss of all those magic items that keep you alive. That might help give more of an epic feeling.
I hear you, but that's what they wanted. Luckily i have over 100 books from 3.5 to add material for feats and whatnot. They just seem dead set on it, which is fine by me, just wanted to see what you guys thought. I agree though.

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If they want the campaign to feel "epic" without a whole lot of magic, maybe they intend a more literary interpretation of "epic", instead of the typical RPG interpretation of "level > 20" or "ridiculously powerful"?
If that's the case, this is as much a matter of athmosphere as it is of pure rules.
If there's a monster, say an Yrthak (picture), that's fairly dangerous (CR 9, nasty ranged attacks, flyby attack), don't just suddenly put it in front of them at level 9 and have them fight it. That's not epic, that's just a random monster.
Now imagine that they first heard about this beast at level 3, seen some of the devastation at level 4, had to run away from it at level 5, nearly got killed by it at level 6, and at level 7 they finally manage to kill it after a hard fight - THAT is epic.
Basically, you need to talk up the monster before the players smack it down. Go watch some showwrestling to see how it's done :P

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You're welcome :)
Players really like to "get even". Occasionally beating up some monsters that a few levels ago were really hard, allows the players to revel in power. To an observer that might look silly or "too easy", but for the players it's glorious.
Players also like to get even with NPCs that once did them a bad turn. Players can be extremely vengeful. Beating a BBEG that got away once (or that defeated the party once) is much more satisfying than defeating a brand-new BBEG.

TGMaxMaxer |
We ran this same kind of scenario... there was a Setting in 3.x called Midnight, where magic was all but eradicated, it was a blast with everyone having a "bloodline" of cool unique abilities but no casters really.
It also had some fun guidelines on "de-magicing" the base classes.
As well, instead of banning full casters, just limit them to half their character level in a full casting class. If you want to be a wizard, you can. So long as you only level wizard on even levels, the rest have to be something else.
It lets you have magic, without the mind-bending world altering power.
Now, if you are not going to want to spend HOURS going over the major changes that not having the big six items will do to the CR system, I suggest these things. (Not familiar with E6, so this might be redundant). I usually use these same rules when I run home games anyways, so that some of the more fun/interesting items come into play, usually at 1/2 WBL guidelines since the big six items aren't needed (or even available).
The game creature design CRs are based on:
+2 to an attack stat every 4-5 levels from a stat item.
+2 to a casting stat every 4-5 levels from a stat item.
+1 to saves every 3-4 levels from items
+1 or 2 AC every 4-5 levels from armor/shield.
+1 hit/damage every 3-4 levels from weapons.
Removal of conditions/poison/disease/negative levels etc. at certain level break points.
Magical healing both in and out of combat for mass damage mitigation.
For any of those you don't have, you need to compensate with the CRs, -or- add some inherent bonuses to the PCs.
We used the term "Heroic" bonus to describe that even without magic, the PC's are just that much more significant than other people in the world. (Major humanoid NPCs got these same benefits)
Let them pick a Stat at creation to get a free +2/4/6 "Heroic" bonus in, at 5/10/15 to simulate the attack stat or casting stat they would have bought a belt or headband for. Pick a secondary stat that they get at 6/12 for another +2/4 to account for the lesser item most people pick up.
Give a "Heroic" bonus on all saving throws every 3-4 levels for the cloak they won't have.
Give a "Heroic" armor bonus every 3-4 levels, doubled when using a shield for the armor enchants they won't have.
Give a "Heroic" weaponry bonus every 3-4 levels that adds to weapon attack and damage.
Give full HP or 3/4 if you are going to limit healing spellcasters.
We also did Con mod in healing every hour (basing hitpoints more like daily exertion/fatigue than actual life force). Then, double Con score negative to actually die. If you were negative, you gained Con mod/day until you got back to positive to represent major recovery time.