been wondering something and have not been able to find an answer. If a paladin changes gods is it considered a ethos violation, the character i am working on would be a paladin following the LG god Ragathiel (god of Vengence), he is seeking vengence for the death of a loved one and ragathiel spoke to him, but once he has brought defeated the villian of his background, he then is going to want to redeem himself and follow a more rightous path, (ie follow a different LG god)
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I don't think so. The code doesn't explicitly state anything about gods or deities in any real way, and even if it did I think the fact that you're changing gods would invalidate anything your "old" code (if there were such a thing) would say, so you'd still be in the clear.
I think You should be fine, rulewise and fluffwise I see no problem here.
Paladins don't even need a god in the core rules.
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Is it an evil act? Doesn't sound like it.
Is it dishonorable? There might be some hard feelings on your old god's behalf, but if you took a nice in-between-quests moment he should respect that (being LG himself). Quitting while you're in the middle of something important might be considered dishonorable.
Would also depend in part on how the gods regard each other. Not all LG, NG, or LN gods get along. Sarenrae and Torag, for example, are noted as often disagreeing.
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Why is everyone so interested in violating paladins recently? ;)
Why is everyone so interested in violating paladins recently? ;)
because it's fun to ruin something so pure...
I think, that a Paladin really should believe they are in fact, righteous. So a Paladin of Ragathiel should think that vengeance is the most righteous path, and wouldn't be shopping around for a new god just because he didn't personally need to be all vengeful anymore. If the Paladin was just into the vengeance thing for what he could get from it, he probably wouldn't have been a Paladin to start.
Now, I can see a Paladin who was all vengeance having some experiences in life and becoming, for example, more interested in mercy. But that should be a result of organic character development, not planning ahead of time. Frankly, it would make a far more interesting character.
Why is everyone so interested in violating paladins recently? ;)
I'd be careful with that wording. Violating has..."primal" senses involved, and people may take it to mean just that. (Lamontius would have a field day with the phrase "violating paladins", that's for sure.)
Saving all of our minds some sanity, I'll be taking the PG-13 Route...
As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than a story having conflict; it provides action and intrigue that draws the masses. If a story doesn't have conflict, it is relatively boring, and people who get bored don't become interested in the content (or context, in this case).
As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than a story having conflict; it provides action and intrigue that draws the masses. If a story doesn't have conflict, it is relatively boring, and people who get bored don't become interested in the content (or context, in this case).
Keep in mind pathfinder isn't a movie for the masses, its a game you play with your friends, one of which owns the paladin, and may not appreciate playing out that kind of story.
Treading close to the paladin fall argument line... thing.
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Why is everyone so interested in violating paladins recently? ;)
I think I prefer the Castle Anthrax method, as in fact do most paladins.
It should be noted that this method would not even cause most paladins to fall.
As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than a story having conflict; it provides action and intrigue that draws the masses. If a story doesn't have conflict, it is relatively boring, and people who get bored don't become interested in the content (or context, in this case).Keep in mind pathfinder isn't a movie for the masses, its a game you play with your friends, one of which owns the paladin, and may not appreciate playing out that kind of story.
Treading close to the paladin fall argument line... thing.
It is not a movie, but the concept can be transferred to other things. Such things are also true for stories, which is basically what Pathfinder it; creating a story that is then enforced by mechanics.
People would be much more interested in a story about a war between two fantasy factions than some goober who eats oranges all day. When you make stories that boring, people become uninterested in participating in the creation of such, and it just falls apart from there.
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People would be much more interested in a story about a war between two fantasy factions than some goober who eats oranges all day. When you make stories that boring, people become uninterested in participating in the creation of such, and it just falls apart from there.
A story about a paladin that doesn't fall is exactly like a story about a goober who eats oranges all day?
People would be much more interested in a story about a war between two fantasy factions than some goober who eats oranges all day. When you make stories that boring, people become uninterested in participating in the creation of such, and it just falls apart from there.A story about a paladin that doesn't fall is exactly like a story about a goober who eats oranges all day?
I don't think you understand the difficulty behind the bolded part. The Paladin has to uphold a code, and there are many things that the Paladin encounters that can cause a problem for him upholding that code. Any number of things really. Hence the conflict, hence there being an interesting story about said character, because conflict = interest. It's true in both movies, TV Shows, books, stories, the list goes on.
The goober, on the other hand, just does nothing except eat oranges. There is no other activity other than him eating oranges. There's no real story, because there is no progress or interesting points; it all goes back to this. He just eats oranges, nothing really happens, and so we get bored and drift off into something interesting.
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nothing really happens, and so we get bored
Unless he's like, out slaying dragons and saving princesses or something. Like all the other adventurers or not paladin story characters.
nothing really happens, and so we get boredUnless he's like, out slaying dragons and saving princesses or something. Like all the other adventurers or not paladin story characters.
No, he isn't. He just eats oranges. That's all that happens.
Plus, a Paladin can kill dragons too...
Um, I think Mr. Sin meant something like this.
Because other adventurers or non-paladin characters slay dragons and save princesses, and stuff, they are not boring. And since a paladin slays dragons and saves princesses, and stuff, he is not boring either.
Now, I've been playing a paladin since my first day of dungeons and dragons six years ago. My paladin, henceforth known as Lore, has tracked down an ancient sword in order to save a kingdom. He's fought a wizard through one-on-one combat, and through martial prowess, beat him (thank the creators for divine grace). Lore with his companions has defended a tower from 3 hill giants, 40 orcs, 120 goblins, and a levitating wizard that threw fireballs at us the entire fight.
From there, Lore was sucked off to the distant lands of Ravenloft, whereupon he and his companions slew the dark lord Strahd von Zorovich, and returned home to find Shadowdale being taken over by the goddess, Shar. Though in his own minor efforts (I was busy with life and wasn't able to participate a whole lot), he was able to assist his friends in beating her back, beating back the drow, and saving Shadowdale, all the while we had no magic to aid us. Yeah, level 7s without magic...try that one on for size.
Oh, I forgot to mention. At that time, Lore was level 4, and he still contributed nicely.
My character was shipped out to Ravenloft yet again, where I personally thought he was going to be sealed away, but, through intuition and a little research (blowing up an undead lord with a maximized heal wand that went wrong in just the right way...I love my golden percentile dice), I was able to leave. (My character looked up a bit on what a different dark lord had done, and instead of using necromancy or evocation, he used conjuration).
Lastly, I come back to Shadowdale, and through his most recent of adventures, Lore is now investigating an intelligent shield that tested him through planer shifts as a means of telling whether he was a righteous man or not. He's still proving himself, and the shield is not to be found liking.
If you don't think surviving a goblin horde, a zombie horde, and a laughingly insane evocationist is entertaining, I don't know what is.
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I agree with MrSin; although a paladin should always be living by the code, that doesn't have to be the focus of the game.
Although occasional tricky bits can be entertaining, on the whole I'd prefer if the story was about stuff that concerns the whole party, not just my class feature.
As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than a story having conflict; it provides action and intrigue that draws the masses. If a story doesn't have conflict, it is relatively boring, and people who get bored don't become interested in the content (or context, in this case).Keep in mind pathfinder isn't a movie for the masses, its a game you play with your friends, one of which owns the paladin, and may not appreciate playing out that kind of story.
Treading close to the paladin fall argument line... thing.
It is not a movie, but the concept can be transferred to other things. Such things are also true for stories, which is basically what Pathfinder it; creating a story that is then enforced by mechanics.
People would be much more interested in a story about a war between two fantasy factions than some goober who eats oranges all day. When you make stories that boring, people become uninterested in participating in the creation of such, and it just falls apart from there.
It is your contention that all the movies about the Arthurian knights are boring then? After all those guys are who the paladin is based on and not too many of them fall.
It is your contention that all the movies about the Arthurian knights are boring then? After all those guys are who the paladin is based on and not too many of them fall.As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than a story having conflict; it provides action and intrigue that draws the masses. If a story doesn't have conflict, it is relatively boring, and people who get bored don't become interested in the content (or context, in this case).Keep in mind pathfinder isn't a movie for the masses, its a game you play with your friends, one of which owns the paladin, and may not appreciate playing out that kind of story.
Treading close to the paladin fall argument line... thing.
It is not a movie, but the concept can be transferred to other things. Such things are also true for stories, which is basically what Pathfinder it; creating a story that is then enforced by mechanics.
People would be much more interested in a story about a war between two fantasy factions than some goober who eats oranges all day. When you make stories that boring, people become uninterested in participating in the creation of such, and it just falls apart from there.
No, it is not. My contention is that the decisions the Paladin makes and how it may (or may not) impact him and his code he is sworn to is what makes the conflict, and therefore, the interest of the character, regardless of if the Paladin would or would not fall. After all, chasing down a Dragon may have implications for the Paladin, if his desire to chase down that Dragon consumes him. Or he could be forced to let such a dangerous adversary get away to protect the innocent, hoping to fight it another day.
The intrigue comes from "What's the Paladin going to do when he comes across a Goblin Baby?" And he thinks long and hard, consoling his code, and whether he adjudicates it properly or not. The factor that the Paladin never breaks his code (and therefore isn't stripped of his powers) is no different a change than, as I exampled, a T.V. Series having an episode with no meaningful plot advancement, i.e. Family Guy.
People are saying it's boring that the Paladin never falls, but it's not (always) about the result; it's about the content of the subject and the interactions within that make matters interesting. Why have an alignment mechanic when there is no possibility of being in jeopardy of that? The factor that a player can always predict their code and adjudicate properly only reflects the greatness of such a character, and actually adds to the story (A Paladin of Pure Heart who has never wavered in the face of distress is a definite and interesting sight to behold, and makes such a failure, should it come, that much more devastating).
It is your contention that all the movies about the Arthurian knights are boring then? After all those guys are who the paladin is based on and not too many of them fall.As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than a story having conflict; it provides action and intrigue that draws the masses. If a story doesn't have conflict, it is relatively boring, and people who get bored don't become interested in the content (or context, in this case).Keep in mind pathfinder isn't a movie for the masses, its a game you play with your friends, one of which owns the paladin, and may not appreciate playing out that kind of story.
Treading close to the paladin fall argument line... thing.
It is not a movie, but the concept can be transferred to other things. Such things are also true for stories, which is basically what Pathfinder it; creating a story that is then enforced by mechanics.
People would be much more interested in a story about a war between two fantasy factions than some goober who eats oranges all day. When you make stories that boring, people become uninterested in participating in the creation of such, and it just falls apart from there.
No, it is not. My contention is that the decisions the Paladin makes and how it may (or may not) impact him and his code he is sworn to is what makes the conflict, and therefore, the interest of the character, regardless of if the Paladin would or would not fall. After all, chasing down a Dragon may have implications for the Paladin, if his desire to chase down that Dragon consumes him. Or he could be forced to let such a dangerous adversary get away to protect the innocent, hoping to fight it another day.
The intrigue comes from "What's the Paladin going to do when he comes across a Goblin Baby?" And he thinks...
Moral dilemmas can be interesting. Paladin traps where no matter what you lose your abilities are not. Using the alignment rules as a straight jacket result in the latter as you do not need rules for moral dilemmas.
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A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features
Where is the Lawful behavior if you can change of God you are serving? A Knight can't simply change the King he serves as he wishes. I guess the personal revenge thing, turns the case worse, because what motivate him is not " seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve", but was a egocentric and selfish motivation. Now, when he is fulfiled his own revenge, he will deny the orthers who seek revenge to get it. Now after years of training and praying for power to it?
Even if you don't consider a betray, it's not a lawful behavior at all, nor a trivial one.
I guess the Atonement is right for this case, since "change Gods" not only implies in change teh one who you serve, but quiting the job for another one. Unless he pursue the liberation of that God personally (which should be more fun and expensive than just attonement it).
And roleplay-wise, I would not "betray" a Revenge God.
I guess change God is unlawful, if not dishonored. So Atonement him!
Why is everyone so interested in violating paladins recently? ;)What do you mean "recently"? Looking for ways to make Paladins explode is the number one hobby here. It's what all alignment threads revolve on.
well it's one of the hobbies here, along with:
Rouge sux (spelling intentional)
monks sux
martials never get nice things
monks are OP
..... and of course Paladins falls
Why is everyone so interested in violating paladins recently? ;)What do you mean "recently"? Looking for ways to make Paladins explode is the number one hobby here. It's what all alignment threads revolve on.
There has been a recent uptick in Paladin falls, everyone laughs threads.
