Question, Piccolo, do you expect to have any Lancers Cavaliers or Paladins? If so, then I could definitely see your reasoning for the Tier*100 bonus HP.No.
I'm dealing with paladin mythic archer.
Mythic come and get me barbarian.
Swashbuckler Inspired Blade.
Slayer Mythic Archer.
All will output insane damage. They won't have the same big hit capability of the lancer. But they will get a ton of attacks and do a ton of damage. So I'll see more crits.
Have you experienced high level archers and Come and Get me Barbarians? They will match the damage output of the big high lancer over the course of rounds. I figure damage output will reach something in the 1000 points per round amongst the four characters past level 14 or 15.
I believe in my non-mythic Kingmaker campaign, they archer was averaging 30 to 35 a hit for seven or eight attacks. The big warriors were doing 50 to 60 points a hit for four or five hits a round. Average damage per round was in the 300 to 400 range depending on the opponent AC. Sometimes spiked higher for crits. The two-hander warrior did amazing damage when he crit. Did almost 200 a crit, which spiked the entire round by another 100 or so points per crit.
Okay, that also makes a lot more sense as you have 4 full BAB damage dealing classes to deal with. If you had, instead, been running a 4 man party of arcane, divine, martial, skill, then your changes would all but insure a TPK.
But with the larger party size... I really don't see any issue with your monsters. They're going to last longer and won't be 1-rounded, but they're not going to TPK the party.
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Look. There is a simple way to keep the game challenging.
Cheat.
It's not "cheating." It's a "dynamically adjusting encounter challenge."
-Skeld
C.H.E.A.T.
Carefully
Heighten
Encounter's
Awesome
Threshold
Look. There is a simple way to keep the game challenging.
Cheat.
It's not "cheating." It's a "dynamically adjusting encounter challenge."
-Skeld
C.H.E.A.T.
Carefully
Heighten
Encounter's
Awesome
Threshold
... stolen!
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Second standard action: (from burning a mythic point, everyone who's mythic gets this at I think 3rd tier or so). Shape Channel at the mass of bad guys in front of me, deselecting the three party members in melee with them. Regardless of whether they save against the channel, they get pushed back thirty feet. So take 10D6/2 damage from the channel, and then get thrown through 4 mythic empowered persistent maximized blade barriers. Roll your saves twice. DC 35 I think is what it was up to. This killed four of the five bad guys in the fight regardless of whether they made every single save. I think it was something like between 400 and 800 damage to all of them, which none of them were surviving even at full health.I can't find Shape Channel anywhere, how are you accomplishing the knockback effect on a failed save exactly? Could you site sources please?
Anyone have an answer for this question?
The correct name of the feat is Channel Force, and aasimar-specific racial channeling feat.
Notice, though, that you need Greater Channel Force to affect multiple foes.
Yea I'm running this AP right now as a PBP. And the characters are pretty un-optimized and most standard encounters aren't a threat. In fact most creatures can't even hit them.
This baffles me to no end. I posted a number of posted in scorpions stat block thread and I'm having the exact opposite experience. My players are getting bested down left and right.
Now, we have just depowered the party and removed mythic after that Xanthir Vang encounter at the end of book 3, but even that battle was too tough; Xanthir easily got away and they killed Jerribeth only because she started acting stupid and panic when her betrayal of Xanthir realized.
I'm agreeing this is a failed AP. Mythic is broken.
I'm so confused at what I'm doing differently than everyone else. Granted, I think my players help out a lot because they make the dumbest tactical decisions and I exploit that, but still... We are an older group, so most of my players don't spend a lot of time analyzing or trying to game the system,so that helps too.
I use a lot of tactics and positioning, light effects, and story elements to make the scenes harder. My players are baffled that everyone finds this AP easy and say I play the creatures to their max... But I think I've just convinced them of that.
Things I'm wondering, how are your characters kicking over 1,000 damage a round... Or healing that much in a round. I'm pretty sure my players (me included) are not as smart as we think we are, lol. I fear having one of you guys at my table.
I would just had you a trophy, lol. You win :)
Well for one thing you removed Mythic from the group. That will do things to the party dynamic.
Well for one thing you removed Mythic from the group. That will do things to the party dynamic.
Yep. Though I'd like to know what tactics globetrotter used. I could use some tips. :)
To either Amazing or Globetrotter do your players (or NPCs) pre buff? My players would normally have freedom of movement, mythic heroism and maybe another spell up almost all the time. When battle hit there would always be haste, prayer (both mythic until I nerfed haste) and maybe 1-2 other spells.
I also started out all enemies pre-buffed with all spells and abilities already cast.
Mythic just got removed. They've had trouble all throughout the AP. Mythic got removed for us because it was making things too complicated. There was also the wild swings of power that made it hard to handle; either they went down fast or you did..
I do restrict items, so that helps a little. I also make sure there are consequences to actions. If they come in guns a blazing, everyone that could know will know and tactics change.
I have the enemies scry on the PC's if they have the ability to. Jarruunicka has the power of augury and divination, she used these powers to prepare for the PC's.
I spend a lot of time wondering what the villains would be doing and try to run them accordingly. Sometime I will rebuild if Paizo built them odd, but usually I play them out of the box.
If they have planar binding spells : Xanthir and powers to enhance said spells, I use them. I don't care if the AP doesn't say to. In this recent battle, I had a planar bound creature ready, but haven't pulled it out yet.
People retreat and regroup. They pass information and encounters get stronger because of knowledge. I don't meta game. If they change strategies I still have the NPC's use old knowledge, unless they have ways to know better.
I also use the environment a lot.
My players do pre-buff when they can, but I will have NPC's talk to them. I run a stop watch and keep track of the time and have buffs drop in real time, stop watch is paused during rounds of combat. Players know this and like the stress it builds.
I figure, if I was a player and people,we're attacking me, I would be aware (if I have the right knowledge skills) what are the common buffs and how long they last, especially if I was a 12th level caster. Delay combat by ten or twenty minutes with a locked door or a minion that likes to talk and presto... Debuffed PC's. Since we all agreed on this and I remind them throughout the dialog about their buffs, no one feels cheated.
To either Amazing or Globetrotter do your players (or NPCs) pre buff? My players would normally have freedom of movement, mythic heroism and maybe another spell up almost all the time. When battle hit there would always be haste, prayer (both mythic until I nerfed haste) and maybe 1-2 other spells.
I also started out all enemies pre-buffed with all spells and abilities already cast.
Sometimes they do and all my bad guys certainly do, but it doesn't help when their base stats are awful. A certain vampire lord in a dungeon has +13 to hit fully buffed and the average PC AC is 26. I mean they don't have much casting, so their most used buff is mythic haste and maybe a few barkskins from the summoner. Fleet strike is a game changer BTW.
Mythic just got removed. They've had trouble all throughout the AP. Mythic got removed for us because it was making things too complicated. There was also the wild swings of power that made it hard to handle; either they went down fast or you did..
I do restrict items, so that helps a little. I also make sure there are consequences to actions. If they come in guns a blazing, everyone that could know will know and tactics change.
I have the enemies scry on the PC's if they have the ability to. Jarruunicka has the power of augury and divination, she used these powers to prepare for the PC's.
I spend a lot of time wondering what the villains would be doing and try to run them accordingly. Sometime I will rebuild if Paizo built them odd, but usually I play them out of the box.
If they have planar binding spells : Xanthir and powers to enhance said spells, I use them. I don't care if the AP doesn't say to. In this recent battle, I had a planar bound creature ready, but haven't pulled it out yet.
People retreat and regroup. They pass information and encounters get stronger because of knowledge. I don't meta game. If they change strategies I still have the NPC's use old knowledge, unless they have ways to know better.
I also use the environment a lot.
My players do pre-buff when they can, but I will have NPC's talk to them. I run a stop watch and keep track of the time and have buffs drop in real time, stop watch is paused during rounds of combat. Players know this and like the stress it builds.
I figure, if I was a player and people,we're attacking me, I would be aware (if I have the right knowledge skills) what are the common buffs and how long they last, especially if I was a 12th level caster. Delay combat by ten or twenty minutes with a locked door or a minion that likes to talk and presto... Debuffed PC's. Since we all agreed on this and I remind them throughout the dialog about their buffs, no one feels cheated.
This is how I do it as well. I know my game will be the same way. I warned my players prior to starting after reading the mythic rules.
It's going to be rocket tag. Two sides will slam into each other. Last man standing wins. You better do everything in your power to make sure it is you. Some of this stuff they have to fight is ridiculous, especially in that last module.
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If you want to reduce the complexity of Mythic (and that is a problem with it!) then might I suggest using the Hero Point system and just have Hero Points regenerate by one per day... and have 3 plus your Tier for the number of Hero Points available?
Mythic Monsters just have Hero Points as well.
It makes things a lot simpler while still having that "heroic" feel above and beyond normal Pathfinder.
Tangent, I figured this to be the best option as well, but sadly my players vetoed it.
We went through a long drawn out conversation on what to do about mythic. One recommendation was to remove any power that gave action economy, I didn't like that since I would have to police everything and I didn't want my work load to increase.
Other option was to half mythic power points... Surges, shoot I can't remember off the top of my head. So instead of having 11 at this level they would have 5. Removing amazing initiative as well to speed things up would round out this house rule. I liked this one, or at least I thought it was on the right track, but my players didn't like the option.
I brought up hero points and they thought it was interesting, but skipped over it to continue the discussion.
In the end, they decided to remove all elements if mythic and play the game straight. I told them I will adjust the power levels down to compensate, which I find easier than trying to compensate for the power swings and I also do not have to rebuild everything.
Scorpion recommended me removing mythic from the creatures as well, but I'm undecided. I think he might be right in the long run, but the mythic creatures are built so poorly I don't think it will matter. Why does everyone have mythic toughness?
We meet this Saturday and I'll see how it goes.
Well, one thing you can do is not to use any of the monsters' active Mythic abilities - like double initiative or the like. That would result in somewhat tougher monsters but not let them do some of the "cool" things that are overpowered.
That's probably a good suggestion.
I think in the future I will continue to use mythic with my monsters, but I doubt I will use it with NPC's. It's terrible, lol.
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My current party of 6 is Level 9 / MT 3 (or 4) we are early in the third book, and different folks have different trials completed. They are frequently defeat encounters whose CR is APL + 4 with little challenge (and for APL I'm counting L as Level + tier + 1 for large party + 1 for 20 point build) So lets call them APL 14 easily handling CR 18-20 encounters. So while I disagree with the "failed" AP comment, I would say the ability to run as written is impossible.
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My current party of 6 is Level 9 / MT 3 (or 4) we are early in the third book, and different folks have different trials completed. They are frequently defeat encounters whose CR is APL + 4 with little challenge (and for APL I'm counting L as Level + tier + 1 for large party + 1 for 20 point build) So lets call them APL 14 easily handling CR 18-20 encounters. So while I disagree with the "failed" AP comment, I would say the ability to run as written is impossible.
The AP is too good to be called a failed AP - I think the NPCs are on par with the best of them - but, I think it is fair to call the CR system used in the AP is seriously flawed.
I think it is fair to say, that parallel development, is to blame here, and I am happy to learn that Paizo took it as a learning experience. (Apparently Occult Adventures and the corresponding AP are made by the same person in charge).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Galnorag: You're running a party of six. That alone will break any game, let alone a Mythic one.
I've found that increasing hit points to full and adding 50% to the number of foes often isn't enough to challenge a party of six. Unless of course you use tactics, have foes with Teamwork Feats or working to flank enemies, set up battle-lines and rear archers, and basically go military on your party.
In addition, you're going with a 20-point build. The AP is meant for 15-points and Mythic is so over-the-top that even "just" an extra five points can break things.
(That said, have you tried adding +1 to every stat of every monster? That makes THEM a 25-point build. It's a quick fix that you'd be surprised at how much it helps over time.)
And it seems like a completely random time for my latest update:
- As I posted previously, the redoubt was a nice fight that I could scale up or down based on my whim-of-the-moment: Should all the scavengers attack the PCs and turn it into a deadly encounter, or should they stick to eating the plethora of food being dropped on their heads? I chose the latter, and the players greatly appreciated my playing the scavengers "realistically". It made their fight easier, but it reminded them, "There, but for the grace of the dice, go I."
- We had a lot of nice RP with Arushelae. As I guessed, the moment the party learned her redemption took Will saves she was sporting a Cloak of Resistance + 5 and a Headband of Inspired Wisdom + 2. But it's what my party does, and I was VERY happy to see them behaving like themselves again. Not to mention an absolutely wonderful time with a cleric of Desna who happened to be in Nerosyan when they teleported there... Excellent AP moments!
- The basilisks outside Vang's compound were similarly fun. The party used Fog Cloud to wonderful effect and the fight was easy, but it was again a fight they had to think about, instead of just, "We go in and kill it."
- Unfortunately, the half-fiend minotaurs definitely fell into the, "We are under-CR'ed mooks. Why are we here again?" genre. More than any other fight we've run so far, the half-fiends were a massive, "Ho hum."
- In spite of all the complaints about the AP, Jerribeth was an out-and-out awesome fight. She blew her first defensive cast (a 1 on her Concentration check) and took some damage, but managed to Reverse Gravity to stick the fighter to the ceiling, fall to the floor to get out of the fighter's reach thanks to the bard's Grease, and Power Word: Stun the sorceress. With the sorceress out of the combat and the fighter a hopeless archer, things looked pretty good for her... 'til the d**ned cleric used Dispel Evil on the stun. From my reading of all the rules, it was legit, and it got the sorceress back into the fight long enough to get Fly on the fighter and let him engage. A Destruction nearly ended him, but Exposed to Awfulness saved him... doubly awesome because I'd rewritten the backgrounds so it was Jerribeth that gave him that trait! Hoisted by her own petard, as it were! And she still would have gotten away except it turned out the fighter had taken Foe Biter and never used it. He burned ALL of his mythic surges beating her to death... but it was still an awesome fight!
And yeah, just to be fun I had Arushelae assure them that if they left Xanthir would leave, so they burned two fifth-level spells to get the rescued Anevia out of there, and they're going off to meet him with NO surges left for the fighter, the bard similarly tapped out, and only the cleric and sorceress significant threats. Unfortunately, the cleric still has enough surges for four mythic Holy Smites, so I think he's going to die horribly, but it's an awesome dungeon crawl so far.
Have I said, "Awesome!" enough yet today?
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Spoiler:And it seems like a completely random time for my latest update:- As I posted previously, the redoubt was a nice fight that I could scale up or down based on my whim-of-the-moment: Should all the scavengers attack the PCs and turn it into a deadly encounter, or should they stick to eating the plethora of food being dropped on their heads? I chose the latter, and the players greatly appreciated my playing the scavengers "realistically". It made their fight easier, but it reminded them, "There, but for the grace of the dice, go I."
- We had a lot of nice RP with Arushelae. As I guessed, the moment the party learned her redemption took Will saves she was sporting a Cloak of Resistance + 5 and a Headband of Inspired Wisdom + 2. But it's what my party does, and I was VERY happy to see them behaving like themselves again. Not to mention an absolutely wonderful time with a cleric of Desna who happened to be in Nerosyan when they teleported there... Excellent AP moments!
- The basilisks outside Vang's compound were similarly fun. The party used Fog Cloud to wonderful effect and the fight was easy, but it was again a fight they had to think about, instead of just, "We go in and kill it."
- Unfortunately, the half-fiend minotaurs definitely fell into the, "We are under-CR'ed mooks. Why are we here again?" genre. More than any other fight we've run so far, the half-fiends were a massive, "Ho hum."
- In spite of all the complaints about the AP, Jerribeth was an out-and-out awesome fight. She blew her first defensive cast (a 1 on her Concentration check) and took some damage, but managed to Reverse Gravity to stick the fighter to the ceiling, fall to the floor to get out of the fighter's reach thanks to the bard's Grease, and Power Word: Stun the sorceress. With the sorceress out of the combat and the fighter a hopeless archer, things looked pretty good for her... 'til the d**ned cleric used Dispel Evil on the stun. From my reading of all...
Hey, NobodysHome, could you spoiler that info?
** spoiler omitted **...
Ah, you caught me just after the hour was up. I'll flag it... flagged.
My impression was that this thread was 100% spoiler-ful, so I hadn't been spoilering.
It begins again...
I noted that the entire final section of Book 2 was plagued not by mythic abilities, but by horrifically under-CR'ed encounters. Prepping for tonight's game, I see more of the same.
It seems like not only did the authors underestimate mythic tiers, but ignored them entirely and decided to put the AP on "easy mode" to boot.
First, we had the CR 3 barbarians at Wintersun Hall. Seriously? And with a setup such that most groups would have to kill at least a few of them just from a sheer lack of hit points?
Then we had the CR 5 templars at the Fallen Fane.
Now I'm looking at the Ivory Sanctum, and we have more of the CR 5 mooks (why?), plus CR 5 basilisks, CR 7 half-fiends, and the "supposedly" CR 9 blackfire adepts whose only 4th-level spell is Dimension Door ("Quake in fear, adventurers, as I use a full-round action to move myself and my companions to another location!"), and whose only significant 3rd-level spell is the terrifying Stinking Cloud. So take a look at 'em and ask yourself, "Once they've protected themselves and done all that wonderful battlefield control with Stinking Cloud and Glitterdust, how, exactly, are they supposed to actually HURT the adventurers?"
They're support mages with no one to support. Oops. Even our hopelessly-incompetent group of 7th-level under-moneyed Second Darkness PCs could take out a group of four of these "mages".
And honestly, once we move to "appropriately-CR'ed" encounters (11+), our party has to use tactics and resources to defeat them.
So I'm just seeing way too many "waste of time, CR-3 or more" troops thrown at the party.
It's one thing to put them in occasionally, it's another to see them as the majority of encounters in almost every dungeon crawl.
So while saying this makes this a "failed AP" is harsh, it's definitely a "poorly-balanced" AP in terms of party level vs. opponent CR, even if you completely ignore mythic tiers.
It doesn't stop there. Look at the guards on the dam in the Midnight Isles. I would challenge anyone to make a less effective 11/12th level character. I don't know how they would challenge 8th lvl characters, let alone 13/5.
Although I do understand the 'realism' of not making underlings that can challenge major heroes.
It doesn't stop there. Look at the guards on the dam in the Midnight Isles. I would challenge anyone to make a less effective 11/12th level character. I don't know how they would challenge 8th lvl characters, let alone 13/5.
Although I do understand the 'realism' of not making underlings that can challenge major heroes.
Oh, I have to agree -- mook guards SHOULD be pretty straightforward fights. But there should be just a couple of those fights that say, "Look how cool you are now!" instead of half a dozen, "Here's another group of hopeless people/critters to grind through".
Even heroes get tired of pummeling the helpless.
I don't worry too much about the henchmen. As far as I'm concerned only mythic should have a chance against mythic. Everyone else is ants under their boots.
I added a level or two of barbarian to the Sanctum guards and made them half vrocks instead of the generic template. Then my PCs were fighting mirror imaged, raging, glaive wielding giants that could hit and hurt them. And it didn't change the CR much for those that care.
In that particular area, I plan to have the mythic barbarian go mano y mano with the main BBEG. I plan to run certain encounters like Hercules just showed up on your doorstep and you have to deal with it. You can act like a bad man, but likely it's not going to go well for you.
Piccolo, I've seen far too many TPKs on the Obit threads in which it feels like the GM is flaunting it. The TPK is their badge of honor for having "won" over the players. Perhaps that's where I differ from some of these GMs. To me, I win when the players have a good time. Killing characters that took hours to create and design a background for and may have dozens or hundreds of hours invested into in gameplay is not a win. If anything, it shows I failed as the GM.
Some others differ with that viewpoint, I know.
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This week's update, spoilered as requested:
Xanthir Vang was a long fight. He lasted 10+ rounds. Of course, the party had burned most of their mythic surges on Jerribeth so they had a heck of a time keeping up with his Fast Healing. The fighter couldn't crit and couldn't use Foe Biter, so was only doing perhaps 20 points per round. And Displacement kept even that damage down. (He was too busy to get Mirror Image up, but it was the AoE spells that were really hammering him.)
My issue with both him and his Blackfire Adepts is lack of offense. Summoning babaus? What an utter waste of everyone's time! He used a mythic surge to try two Disintegrates on the fighter, but otherwise tended to use Blackfire Surges because he just didn't have a lot of spells capable of stopping his opponents. (And he spent most of the time silenced and dimension locked. This didn't help his attitude at all.)
Unfortunately, after the fight I looked up what level my PCs were supposed to be. They were 10/4. They were supposed to be 12/4.
So my PCs had a challenging dungeon crawl but managed to do it all in one go. While two levels lower than the level suggested in the AP.
Hmmm...
Yeah, as a player, if I ever get the sense that the GM is out to kill my character simply because I made an effective character, then I'm out. Too many other things to do than play with a GM who has to prove that he can 1up me.
As an example, my current character in one of my games I am in is a Pouncebarian. I do have Come and Get Me. But, honestly, I rarely use it or activate it.
He is a pure combat machine. He was designed to eat faces. And he does that quite well.
If my GM was to have the attitude of wanting to kill my character simply because he is so combat effective, I would stop having fun with the game. And I would leave the game. Which would mean less fun for everyone.
Just because players make super combat effective characters does not mean they are one dimensional or twinks. The prevailing thought in my head during character creation was Wulfgar. I wanted a 2H weapon wielding barbarian from the north.
This was in response to my previous character from the campaign before this current one. Same GM. Star Wars. Set during the Battle of Ruusan time. I was playing a Jedi Consular. During the 1.5 - 2 year campaign she maybe ignited her lightsaber twice at the most. She was a buffer and a student of the library. She was the research nut.
So, when it came time for this new campaign, I wanted a HUGE butt kicker. But, I also made him arrogant. Which fits him because he is so good at what he does. It is not arrogance to him. It is fact.
So, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Just because someone makes a combat effective character doesn't mean they are trying to break the system or anything.
Just a couple things:
Yeah, as a player, if I ever get the sense that the GM is out to kill my character simply because I made an effective character, then I'm out. Too many other things to do than play with a GM who has to prove that he can 1up me.
I agree. If the GMs purpose involves showing up the players to the point that they look to eliminate those characters they don't agree with, it's not worth playing a game with that GM. A spiteful GM is not a fun GM by any stretch. I want someone willing to work with me as a player, and that's what I try and do as a GM for my players.
As an example, my current character in one of my games I am in is a Pouncebarian. I do have Come and Get Me. But, honestly, I rarely use it or activate it.
He is a pure combat machine. He was designed to eat faces. And he does that quite well.
I do believe some caution must be used when creating a character, however. I don't believe there to be anything wrong with a Pouncebarian, or other such powerful force on the field of battle. Unless, that character makes every other character at the table unnecessary. When one character build has become some dominating that the other players no longer have fun, then I have a problem.
Such a problem is typically able to be dealt with via communication, however. You may have that amazing battlefield stomper, but the rest of your table may be playing characters that support or work well with such a character as you have, in which case they are all having a blast with combat scenarios. It's all about group dynamics, in my mind. When a single player decides his character's awesomeness is more important than every player having fun, we've got a problem. Luckily, that rarely happens with my group!
The prevailing thought in my head during character creation was Wulfgar. I wanted a 2H weapon wielding barbarian from the north.
Wulfgar, however, was not a 2H weapon wielder. Aegis Fang was a warhammer, and thus a one-handed weapon. Just noting that! ;)
The prevailing thought in my head during character creation was Wulfgar. I wanted a 2H weapon wielding barbarian from the north.Wulfgar, however, was not a 2H weapon wielder. Aegis...
Wulfgar wielded his weapon two-handed though.
It was a two handed warhammer. It was not designed to be used with one hand.
it was pure 1E, tho. His only magic item was a +5 returning Mighty Hurling Warhammer. Not bad for a level 6 barbarian.
==Aelryinth
Piccolo, I've seen far too many TPKs on the Obit threads in which it feels like the GM is flaunting it. The TPK is their badge of honor for having "won" over the players. Perhaps that's where I differ from some of these GMs. To me, I win when the players have a good time. Killing characters that took hours to create and design a background for and may have dozens or hundreds of hours invested into in gameplay is not a win. If anything, it shows I failed as the GM.
Some others differ with that viewpoint, I know.
Best stay away from Turin the Mad
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Just a couple things:
Yeah, as a player, if I ever get the sense that the GM is out to kill my character simply because I made an effective character, then I'm out. Too many other things to do than play with a GM who has to prove that he can 1up me.I agree. If the GMs purpose involves showing up the players to the point that they look to eliminate those characters they don't agree with, it's not worth playing a game with that GM. A spiteful GM is not a fun GM by any stretch. I want someone willing to work with me as a player, and that's what I try and do as a GM for my players.
I don't have a problem with a GM banning classes or oddball races flat out - as long as it's upfront. I (as a GM) only have a problem with exceptional characters if it's only a single person at the table - and then it's not the character - it's a question of everyone else - at some point a discussion has to be had - if everyone else is having a ton of fun it's no big deal, however if having a super character makes everyone else bored the group needs to discuss how to move forward (either with the others getting build tips/help from the super optimizer or the optimizer toning it down). That's also not a GM problem.
If everyone is having fun and or the entire table is optimizers - then it's my job to up the challenge to the group - nothing else is to blame.
That's just my opinion.
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Honestly, I think this whole derail about optimizers/efficient players/whatever you want to call them is a major cause of the frustration seen here.
The complaint from GMs who have gotten the PCs to 3rd tier and above is that it's effectively impossible not to optimize the PCs in such a way that they're one-rounding supposed BBEGs.
My fighter's player finally gave up, and asked if he could rewrite his character as a Guardian instead of a Champion because all the Champion options that made any sense at all were too overpowered.
So here we are, over 1000 posts in, and people are still saying, "Well, it's your fault as a GM that you have a bunch of over-optimizing players."
Having just finished Book 3, my major complaints are:
- The Champion path is too focused on massive damage so a melee character on the Champion path ends up outdamaging everyone else combined.
- The encounters would be under-CR'ed for a non-mythic campaign. In Books 2 and 3 you see many, many fights between 9th level characters and CR 5-7 enemies. As Piccolo has said, the PCs SHOULD feel like they can curb stomp anything non-mythic. But three or four such encounters would suffice. Fifteen or twenty is just plain frustrating.
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So we've played a grand total of 21 AP books, including 9 with the classic "4 15-point PCs" where I ran all the encounters as-written. The *only* books where I've had major issues with repeated underpowered encounters have been books 2 and 3 of WotR.
So the continuing, "All APs have this problem," or, "Your players are too optimization-heavy," posts are definitely a bit frustrating.
Though as Chris pointed out, the hostility level does ratchet up beyond what is polite or proper.