This is the Geomancer. I tried to remain faithful to Final Fantasy Tactics in making him a spellcaster than can hold his own in a fight. Tell me what you guys think?
Included in this order are:
The Class
His Spell List
3 custom feats to help him out
Some specific feedback I am looking for:
Is this easy to understand? Does my wording need to be clearer? Where are you finding it unclear?
Do you think this class is weak or strong? Why?
Cantrips is not a spell-like ability. They're just a normal ability like Spells.
Geomancy is absolutely broken. It deals more damage than sneak attack, is ranged, allows no save for the damage, requires no attack roll from the geomancer, and inflicts a status condition. There's no indication how many times this ability can be used, either. In addition, you can take a feat to attack more than once per round. I would make it a straight 1d6 per odd level, grant a Reflex save and, have it use up an actual resource. Alchemist bombs seem like a good benchmark for this ability.
Speaking of resources, I don't really see the point of the drain condition. The class doesn't do much with it and it does not adequately gate any of the geomancer's abilities. I would either remove this condition or add some other effect to it. For example, maybe he turns an area he stands on into difficult terrain when he uses geomancy, which would encourage him to get into melee combat.
Aside from geomancy and spells, the geomancer don't have many abilities. Many of the ones they get at later levels are pretty lackluster, except for the ones that needlessly increase the damage of geomancy. You could remedy this by introducing geomancy's status effects later on and giving them options to sacrifice damage dice to augment geomancy in other ways.
I know that many homebrew stuff don't follow style as religiously as I do, but some of the style errors threw me off. I thought Terrain Attunement was referring to a feat and endure elements should be lowercase and italicized. You generally should never capitalize a game mechanic in text unless it's the name of a skill, save, feat, or size category.
For being a geomancer, I'm surprised there's no difficult terrain mechanics going on here. Even the FFT geomancer could ignore difficult terrain from water.
Geomancy is so close to some of the stuff that druids can do, I'd almost say ditch the arcane idea. I'd say it's more of a (natural) divine source.
Also, in FFT, if you had picked up levels in knight, and gathered enough JP, you could equip heavy armor. So maybe make him like a cleric as far as the spellcasting and armor proficiencies go.
Honestly though, I'd just do away with the spellcasting idea altogether. The geomancer didn't actually use spells, he used something closer to an at-will spell-like ability.
The alchemist is a good benchmark to go off of like Cyrad said. That would keep it in line with the rogue and cleric as far as progression goes.
I can see where Cyrad's talking about making them uses/day, because every class has something like that. Even wizards depending on school get a special ability usable 3 + Int/day.
With the Geomancy being more of a main focus of the class than the alchemist's bombs are for the alchemist, maybe make a way that you can get them back throughout the day.
I noticed you have the reflex save to avoid the additional effect on the geomancy. While I wouldn't say to make the entire thing a reflex save, I'd suggest making it a ranged touch attack. It couldn't miss in FFT as far as I remember, but then again, this isn't FFT, it's Pathfinder, and system balance is a little more important than perfect class emulation.
Overall, I like the idea. Geomancer may not have been my favorite job in FFT, but I always liked having one on my squad.
I would take out the rejuvenation boon. It grants the geomancer free, quick, and easy out of combat healing. I think that is to be avoided.
I still find it really weird that you are not saving for half damage with the geomancy abilities.
Once you get fast geomancy, that is your level in d6 in damage with absolutely no save, right? When you get another attack, that is 1.5 your level in d6 with no save. Wizards have to spend resources to use abilities far weaker than that. I recognize that the drain mechanic means that you can't do that every round, but the efficient geomancy feat means they can do it 2 out of 3 rounds.
I think you should rethink the geomancy mechanic more generally. I think it should probably be a ranged touch attack or something and then require a save for the status effect.
I agree with Excaliburproxy that geomancy should be reworked. There's many ways you can do it, but the obvious one is some kind of ranged touch attack since the ability flavor is that you're hurling the earth at enemies. Some ideas might include:
1) Ranged touch attack dealing 1d6/odd level damage that inflicts a condition based on terrain you're standing on. Level + Wisdom mod per day.
2) Like #1 except it deals less damage and splashes on adjacent targets.
3) Ranged attack that considers the hurled terrain as a thrown weapon dealing 1d6 + Wisdom mod damage. The damage dice increases as the geomancer levels, using the monk's unarmed strike progression. At-will. As the geomancer levels up, they can have attack inflict status conditions if they "learned the terrain."
4) Deals 1d6/odd level damage to target and inflicts a status condition based on terrain you're standing on. Reflex halves the damage. Level + Wisdom mod per day. As the geomancer levels up, they can have attack inflict status conditions if they "learned the terrain."
5) Like one of the others, but the attack can ravage the land at later levels, causing the area around the geomancer to become non-magical difficult terrain that which they ignore.
Geomancy is so close to some of the stuff that druids can do, I'd almost say ditch the arcane idea. I'd say it's more of a (natural) divine source.
I felt the same way about this at first, but the geomancer is basically ravaging the earth to attack people. This isn't really something a divine nature class would do. I think Charisma fits better, but one could justify Wisdom well, too.
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I just took a quick glance, and one aspect that you might also explore is geomancer talents (akin to rogue talents or a horizon walker's terrain mastery/dominance). Provide a list of possible techniques that a geomancer can learn, and let the character pick and choose as he or she gains levels. From what I recall, the FFT geomancer also had to purchase each terrain's geomancy separately. Toss the water walking, lava walking, woodland stride, et cetera into that category too, perhaps?
On the No save part with Geomancy, I actually forgot to make it a ranged touch attack. That is my bad.
The Purpose of the Drain mechanic is to limit the Geomancer in the same way a normal dungeon would limit a character like a cavalier.
Many dungeons have rooms that are only big enough to get 1 or 2 Geomancy effects off. In other words, in a dungeon the Geomancer is basically limited on a per encounter basis. Meanwhile, outside the Geomancer gets full access to his Geomancy, but must constantly maintain movement. If he full attacks with Geomancy (1 feat) he has to move next turn because all the ground near him is now drained (unless he took 2 feats). This gates his full attack a bit. Also if he full attacks, then moves and Geomancies next turn, he can't full attack the turn after he moves and geomancies because that earth is drained too. I figured that the fact that he was forced to be constantly moving would be a good balancing factor. Do you guys all agree this is not the case?
For the ignoring difficult terrain thing, I gave the class nimble moves early on. Perhaps I should have them gain acrobatic steps later as well?
As round rough terrain creation, that actually did come into play at 14th level. Do you think it should come in earlier? Also, the Geomancer got almost every rough terrain creation spell in the game.
This was the ability: Shape the Earth (Sp): When using any Geomancer ability that induces the Drain state on nearby squares, the Geomancer can choose to change any Drained square, up to double his Wisdom Modifier, into rough terrain, or turn rough terrain into normal terrain. This ability cannot be used to transform terrain magically enhanced to be rough terrain.
On the No save part with Geomancy, I actually forgot to make it a ranged touch attack. That is my bad.
The Purpose of the Drain mechanic is to limit the Geomancer in the same way a normal dungeon would limit a character like a cavalier.
Many dungeons have rooms that are only big enough to get 1 or 2 Geomancy effects off. In other words, in a dungeon the Geomancer is basically limited on a per encounter basis. Meanwhile, outside the Geomancer gets full access to his Geomancy, but must constantly maintain movement. If he full attacks with Geomancy (1 feat) he has to move next turn because all the ground near him is now drained (unless he took 2 feats). This gates his full attack a bit. Also if he full attacks, then moves and Geomancies next turn, he can't full attack the turn after he moves and geomancies because that earth is drained too. I figured that the fact that he was forced to be constantly moving would be a good balancing factor. Do you guys all agree this is not the case?
I disagree. Mechanically, this does an inadequate job of gating the ability because the geomancer will never run out of uses of the ability. There's no attrition, whereas a blaster mage will eventually run out of spells and had to make a big versatility sacrifice. An alchemist only has so many bombs. Even one or two geomancy effects per encounter is significant and means the geomancer will get more uses of the ability than an alchemist with bombs. In addition, I already pointed out that geomancy does more damage than comparable abilities. At-will abilities, especially ranged nukes, pose a very significant balance risk. Draining terrain does a poor job of gating the ability.
Secondly, using the drain mechanic to limit use in dungeons makes little sense thematically. Why is a mage that can manipulate stone weaker inside a structure made out of stone? Why is a mage that uses earth to destroy people weaker inside an underground cavern? This was also something that was NOT like the geomancers in FFT.
For the ignoring difficult terrain thing, I gave the class nimble moves early on. Perhaps I should have them gain acrobatic steps later as well?
As round rough terrain creation, that actually did come into play at 14th level. Do you think it should come in earlier? Also, the Geomancer got almost every rough terrain creation spell in the game.
This was the ability: Shape the Earth (Sp): When using any Geomancer ability that induces the Drain state on nearby squares, the Geomancer can choose to change any Drained square, up to double his Wisdom Modifier, into rough terrain, or turn rough terrain into normal terrain. This ability cannot be used to transform terrain magically enhanced to be rough terrain.
That's a bit late. Getting Nimble Moves is kind of meh and doesn't emphasize enough the agility over terrain comes as result of the geomancy. Even the druid can ignore difficult terrain of foilage. I'm also surprised there was nothing done with the ranger's favored terrain list.
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I intended to give the Geomancer infinite uses of this ability. My goal was to balance this around being able to use his abilities at least 1-3 times per combat, every combat. With this design goal in mind, what changes do you think I should make to Geomancy and other class abilities to keep up with the idea of Geomancy abilities being on a "per encounter" basis, and never a "per day" basis?
The reason why its weaker in dungeons is that he pulls the magic out of the nearby terrain to use Geomancy instead of using his own resources. Once that magic is gone, it takes 24 hours to build up again. He is using up the environment's power when he uses Geomancy, so any time he has access to less environment his abilities take a nosedive.
What level do you think I should move Shape the Earth to? And what level do you think the Geomancer should gain Acrobatic Steps as a bonus feat?
Also thanks for catching that. I meant for Attuned Terrain to pull from the Ranger Favored Terrain list.
Dot.
I just took a quick glance, and one aspect that you might also explore is geomancer talents (akin to rogue talents or a horizon walker's terrain mastery/dominance). Provide a list of possible techniques that a geomancer can learn, and let the character pick and choose as he or she gains levels. From what I recall, the FFT geomancer also had to purchase each terrain's geomancy separately. Toss the water walking, lava walking, woodland stride, et cetera into that category too, perhaps?
Wow, a Paizonian down here in Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew. We are delighted!
Welcome!!! We have tea*, cakes, axe-chucks, base classes and ideas. I'm guessing you are drawn here by the Final Fantasy connection, and not just avidly trawling our (though, more likely, your) humble sub-forum?
* No. No coffee. Coffee is bad for your soul.
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I just took a quick glance, and one aspect that you might also explore is geomancer talents (akin to rogue talents or a horizon walker's terrain mastery/dominance). Provide a list of possible techniques that a geomancer can learn, and let the character pick and choose as he or she gains levels. From what I recall, the FFT geomancer also had to purchase each terrain's geomancy separately. Toss the water walking, lava walking, woodland stride, et cetera into that category too, perhaps?Wow, a Paizonian down here in Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew. We are delighted!
Welcome!!! We have tea*, cakes, axe-chucks, base classes and ideas. I'm guessing you are drawn here by the Final Fantasy connection, and not just avidly trawling our (though, more likely, your) humble sub-forum?
* No. No coffee. Coffee is bad for your soul.
I like to skim the subject lines of everything from the "Product Discussion" to "Products" messageboards, which includes the advice, homebrew, and compatible products sections. Often a few topics jump out, and if it seems like I can contribute, I do. The house rules/homebrew branch also tends to be pretty friendly. This is a great place to test one's ideas and build design chops, which can be very helpful for contests like RPG Superstar, when Paizo looks for undiscovered (or at least "yet-to-write-lots-for-Paizo") authors. Keep building, designing, and constructively critiquing.
Oooo! Cake, ideas, and indiscriminately dangerous martial arts weapons? Sounds like a good time!
I just took a quick glance, and one aspect that you might also explore is geomancer talents (akin to rogue talents or a horizon walker's terrain mastery/dominance). Provide a list of possible techniques that a geomancer can learn, and let the character pick and choose as he or she gains levels. From what I recall, the FFT geomancer also had to purchase each terrain's geomancy separately. Toss the water walking, lava walking, woodland stride, et cetera into that category too, perhaps?Wow, a Paizonian down here in Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew. We are delighted!
Welcome!!! We have tea*, cakes, axe-chucks, base classes and ideas. I'm guessing you are drawn here by the Final Fantasy connection, and not just avidly trawling our (though, more likely, your) humble sub-forum?
* No. No coffee. Coffee is bad for your soul.
I like to skim the subject lines of everything from the "Product Discussion" to "Products" messageboards, which includes the advice, homebrew, and compatible products sections. Often a few topics jump out, and if it seems like I can contribute, I do. The house rules/homebrew branch also tends to be pretty friendly. This is a great place to test one's ideas and build design chops, which can be very helpful for contests like RPG Superstar, when Paizo looks for undiscovered (or at least "yet-to-write-lots-for-Paizo") authors. Keep building, designing, and constructively critiquing.
Oooo! Cake, ideas, and indiscriminately dangerous martial arts weapons? Sounds like a good time!
I do believe you would like the Axe-chucks. That thread is a work of art. It even has a custom made artifact, the "Armoire of Invincibility."
Pretty cool to see a developer check out the homebrew forums!
But on the subject of the geomancer using geomancy, Pathfinder typically avoids at-will nukes and CC. The warlock from 3.5e is the closest to this, and they had very limited class features -- they did not even have spells. Being able to use geomancy 1-3 times a combat is significant because most combats last 3-4 rounds. Another issue is that geomancy is a "safe" ability. Whereas a rogue has to put themselves in danger, a geomancer can nuke safely from a distance and relies on a less situational circumstance. Another thing you might want to consider is that recording what land is drained might be a bit annoying.
That being said, I think we can work this out! I'd like to see geomancy's damage toned down, which fits the FFT job because the geomancer was more of a sustained damage dealer/debuffer than a burst mage. In addition, I think it would be interesting to see draining land causing difficult terrain as a side effect of the ability. This adds an extra layer of strategy and risk. It's also thematically fitting: the geomancer has to worry about the consequences of ravaging the land they're using to assault people with.
I didn't think the damage amount of Geomancy seemed that over the top-- but is it infinite times per day?
The ability it seems most like from a standard class is Channel Energy, so it should have a similar X/day limit?
I didn't think the damage amount of Geomancy seemed that over the top-- but is it infinite times per day?
The ability it seems most like from a standard class is Channel Energy, so it should have a similar X/day limit?
I was thinking about making it useable by expending a point from a pool (Wisdom modifier size. This pool would regenerate at 1 point every 2 or 3 minutes.Earthen Power,Empowered Geomancy, and Call of the Earth would also pull from that same pool.
What does everyone think of this idea?
What if geomancy was the pool?
Though if it regenerates as fast as 1 point per minute, I'm not entirely sure there's any point to having the pool in the first place.
What if geomancy was the pool?
Though if it regenerates as fast as 1 point per minute, I'm not entirely sure there's any point to having the pool in the first place.
Yeah, and I can rename Geomancy into Geomancy Blast. I like that. And it would regenerate 1 point every 2 or 3 minutes, to make sure that all of the Geomancer abilities are on a "per encounter" basis.
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I'm not sold on the per-minute regeneration. To me, this geomancy thing seems like a fairly core aspect of the class that should be limited nonetheless—like an alchemist's bomb class feature. In fact, I would use that model for the daily limitation. Do [class level] plus [Wisdom modifier] for the number of daily uses.
The regional draining concept is still cool, but to fit it into a true uses-per-day model, I would make it grant a minor (possibly scaling) bonus to a standard use of geomancy. For example, if geomancy in a cold area does 1d6 damage per odd level and entangles, perhaps I could drain the area to make one of my geomancy attacks deal either 1d8 per odd level or also deal 1d3 Dex damage. This way I'm not packing virtually unlimited resources, but I also feel as though the terrain is a good resource that I can tap into a limited number of times.
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I'd honestly say regeneration works, but if you're going to limit it per day, it should have enough uses to make it actually work all day. The bomb class feature is honestly too limited in its usage, so maybe add 3 to the number usable if you're using the Bomb model for uses per day, if only to assure it's not too quick to dry up.
If you want the geomancer to have at-will abilities, then perhaps you could compromise by having geomancy follow the alchemist benchmark and replacing cantrips with weak rays or the ability to fling debris as ranged weapons. I'm not too sure. I feel like I'm envisioning a geomancer much different than your vision, even with respect to the FFT job.
If the geomancer is essentially getting a strong at-will power, something has to give because they already get spells and a decent BAB. As I mentioned before, a safe class whose strong powers are always available doesn't fit Pathfinder design.
Yeah, and I can rename Geomancy into Geomancy Blast. I like that. And it would regenerate 1 point every 2 or 3 minutes, to make sure that all of the Geomancer abilities are on a "per encounter" basis.What if geomancy was the pool?
Though if it regenerates as fast as 1 point per minute, I'm not entirely sure there's any point to having the pool in the first place.
I meant that geomancy is both the resource and the default use of that resource. Every class feature that grants a resource pool also grants a default way to use that resource. Arcane pool lets you spend a point to enchant your weapon. Ki pool lets you spend a point to get an extra flurry attack. So when another ability uses up a point, you have the phrase "expend a use of geomancy." I personally like this because it makes the pool more elegant and refrains from uses language that draws attention to meta-game concepts.
If you want the geomancer to have at-will abilities, then perhaps you could compromise by having geomancy follow the alchemist benchmark and replacing cantrips with weak rays or the ability to fling debris as ranged weapons. I'm not too sure. I feel like I'm envisioning a geomancer much different than your vision, even with respect to the FFT job.
If the geomancer is essentially getting a strong at-will power, something has to give because they already get spells and a decent BAB. As I mentioned before, a safe class whose strong powers are always available doesn't fit Pathfinder design.
I meant that geomancy is both the resource and the default use of that resource. Every class feature that grants a resource pool also grants a default way to use that resource. Arcane pool lets you spend a point to enchant your weapon. Ki pool lets you spend a point to get an extra flurry attack. So when another ability uses up a point, you have the phrase "expend a use of geomancy." I personally like this because it makes the pool more elegant and refrains from uses language that draws attention to meta-game concepts.Yeah, and I can rename Geomancy into Geomancy Blast. I like that. And it would regenerate 1 point every 2 or 3 minutes, to make sure that all of the Geomancer abilities are on a "per encounter" basis.What if geomancy was the pool?
Though if it regenerates as fast as 1 point per minute, I'm not entirely sure there's any point to having the pool in the first place.
I must thank you again, because that definitely improves the wording on it. Geomancy's name will stay, and I think it shall be a pool.
I'm not sold on the per-minute regeneration. To me, this geomancy thing seems like a fairly core aspect of the class that should be limited nonetheless—like an alchemist's bomb class feature. In fact, I would use that model for the daily limitation. Do [class level] plus [Wisdom modifier] for the number of daily uses.
The regional draining concept is still cool, but to fit it into a true uses-per-day model, I would make it grant a minor (possibly scaling) bonus to a standard use of geomancy. For example, if geomancy in a cold area does 1d6 damage per odd level and entangles, perhaps I could drain the area to make one of my geomancy attacks deal either 1d8 per odd level or also deal 1d3 Dex damage. This way I'm not packing virtually unlimited resources, but I also feel as though the terrain is a good resource that I can tap into a limited number of times.
I think I will give it a limited number of uses per day, but have it be a bit larger than the Alchemist's bomb uses since multiple class features will pull from this pool and because Geomancy's attacks are weaker than an alchemist's bomb.
What do you think of 3+level+Wisdom Modifier uses per day of Geomancy abilities? Also, what would everyone think of Fast Geomancy making full-attacking with the Geomancy only use up 1 Geomancy from the pool?
How about using a cool down based system; it can only be used once so many rounds, with the cool down getting progressively smaller and smaller. Perhaps the pool mechanic could be used to speed up the cool down or add to the damage or DC? That would keep it limited while also allowing a resource that could be used to augment its effects. Keeping with the unlimited uses idea but with action limiters, perhaps make the pool equal only to his casting stat but he can spend a full round action (or maybe even a minute) to restore one point as long as he is on the ground?
Yeah, and I can rename Geomancy into Geomancy Blast. I like that. And it would regenerate 1 point every 2 or 3 minutes, to make sure that all of the Geomancer abilities are on a "per encounter" basis.What if geomancy was the pool?
Though if it regenerates as fast as 1 point per minute, I'm not entirely sure there's any point to having the pool in the first place.
Call Geomancy "Gaia" that's what it was called in FFv