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Well... this can be tricky. There are a number of answers to this question. First however let us fully identify the issue here as clearly as possible.
Your fighter is a min/maxer. He is also a bit of a rule abuser (trip builds are a bit cheap, but ces't la vie. Your gunslinger is broken. This is no surprise. All gunslingers are broken.
But take heart! Both classes are pretty much at the top of their power curve at your level. Going forward they will get less and less powerful compared to the other players (and the NPCs).
Now... how to handle things now. Well... rule one... change things up!
There is no reason you have to run the encounters as written. I covered the floor of Lamatar's cave with spikes of ice making it both difficult terrain with effects similar to caltrops for anyone other than him. Likewise... surround him with a haze of cold smoke giving him total concealment that he can see through. Make that gunslinger choose which square he wants to shoot at blindly, and even then it is a 50% chance he misses. Have fun! USE CONCEALMENT A LOT!
As for Barl... why should he even care about the trip fighter. He has the FLY spell. He should immediately fly up into the air and start chucking rocks from his back pack at the PCs and drop spells on them. Add some Mooks to the encounter for the PCs to deal with to keep them busy. Oh... and as for the gunslinger... well old Barl popped off a displacement scroll right before they ran in. Watch the PCs sweat when they cant reach him with melee, and can only hit him half the time with ranged.
Now... start doing this all the time. Make it S.O.P. for your bad guys. Also, change things up all the time. Some of the encounters are just poorly laid out. For example, the Lamia chick at the keep. Instead of fighting her in the small cramped room downstairs... she snuck out and charmed Shalelu and the three surviving black arrows, then used Illusions to make the PCs look like Ogrekin. Then she used a magic item I gave her to summon a couple Babu demons and Half Fiend Minotaurs and set them, and the Black Arrows, all against the PCs. It was brutal, and if the PCs hadn't come up with a creative way to break the charm they probably would have lost. It was a glorious clusterfluck of crazy proportions, and a great fight.
As things go forward, more and more of your BBEGs will have spells and you should make sure to use them to their best effect, and supplement them as needed with other abilities / spells to challenge your players. As they go up in level, your two trouble PCs will be less and less of an issue, and any clerics / wizards you have will start giving you fits.
Oh... and feel free to pad hit points or fudge a dice roll every now and again as necessary. It is important to give the PCs an occasional epic win against overwhelming odds, but you must make sure it is the exception not the rule. Make the scrabble for what they get. Make them pay the Iron Price and in the end you will all have more fun.
This particular AP was written before the gunslinger class or firearms appeared in Pathfinder and you will find that anyone who uses them will probably have a cakewalk since there are so many large enemies with low touch ACs.
As far as the fighter, I'd have to see his build, but 100 damage in one round over 2 attacks sounds feasible especially with a "frequent crit" weapon.
If the characters are walking over the tough encounters, the GM needs to spice them up. Adding more mooks is usually the way to go, since it increases the difficulty of the encounter, but makes players feel good about how effective they are as the mooks go down. A minion doesn't usually have much treasure either, so the rewards will be the same.
Peet
...one shotting him with a named bullet and only needing to roll a 1 to hit because of touch ac.
Not to be too much of a nitpicker, but a roll of a 1 on an attack is always a miss regardless of target AC or attacker bonus.
And unfortunately that's the only answer. You need to know the rules better than the players if they are min-maxers. AP/Module writers cannot anticipate every party configuration, they can only write to the most likely or common character groups. So you need to be able to evaluate encounters and anticipate where they will and will not provide a challenge to the players.
I'm not saying min-maxing is bad, just that the DM needs to have the ability to respond in kind. Encounters should vary in difficulty - some easy, some hard, most moderate. The situation escalates in challenge for the DM if some players/pc's are min-maxed and others aren't.
Without knowing more about the character builds in question, we can't really judge whether they are actually broken per rules or just well constructed fun-killers. (And I stand by that judgement - if the DM is seriously considering quitting and another player is posting to internet forums in confusion/desperation, fun is dying.)
Your fighter is a min/maxer. He is also a bit of a rule abuser (trip builds are a bit cheap)
That's a bit harsh. The trip rules were written early and trip builds are as intended. Why is the fighter player a rules abuser for taking an option provided to him? It's not like he sought out a combination of feats/abilities that were never intended to be used together, he's simply followed the trip tree.
Apparently gunslingers are broken at the rules level but trip builds are the player's fault?
'Blame the player' is just bad advice.
Any group can be challenged by the right combination of opponents, environment and tactics. Published adventures are by their very nature generic, and cannot account for party composition. It falls to the GM to recognize strengths and weaknesses in a group and adjust accordingly.
Trip/crit builds can offer more attacks (through AoO) and higher 'spike' damage output, but we aren't talking about a broken rage-lance-pounce build here, nor is he a trip/crit/smite paladin (I'd categorize the first as rules abuse, and the second as cheese).
Anything that reduces the effectiveness of his strengths periodically will reduce the notion of an overpowered build. Throw in a single Ochre Jelly if he's dominating the group. Instant reality check. Can't be tripped, can't be crit, no damage from slashing or piercing weapons (and creates more opponents = more attacks against). Jelly works well for the gunslinger too.
There are all sorts of ways to equalize a game for everyone's enjoyment. Dont punish a player for having a combat effective character by making them ineffective, but do challenge them by not serving up every fight on a plate.
what point but was used? the AP was written for 4 15 or buy pt buy characters...changing this changes the difficulty (or lack of)
By the time you are level 10 the difference between a 10 pt. buy and a 25 pt. buy is negligible as far as I can see.
By the time you are level 10 the difference between a 10 pt. buy and a 25 pt. buy is negligible as far as I can see.
Negligible is probably not the right word. I haven't done an exhaustive mathematical analysis but the difference between a 15 pt buy and a 25 pt buy appears to be about +2 in the overall ability score bonus total and it also puts the extremely high scores (16, 17, 18) in play without having to pick up ability score penalties. A +2 advantage corresponds to a 10% improvement in outcomes and that might be underestimating the impact if the +2 is in multi-functional, "always-on" abilities like Dex (AC, reflex saves) or Con (HP, fort saves.)
I agree that advancing levels adds benefits well beyond ability scores - a 5th level fighter with 12 Str is superior to a 1st level fighter with 20 Str. However a 10th level fighter with 20 Str is superior to a 10th level fighter with 16 or 18, and the 25 pt buy makes the 20 much more likely.
If the intent of your comment was that the point buy level is unlikely to be the source of the OP DM's problems, I'd agree there too. The problem there seems to be compensating for specific player builds (which may be min-max, cheese, broken, power-gamer, etc. in each beholder's eye.) But the question about point buy is still on point because it may reveal a DM that didn't realize the consequences or may be getting pushed around by players, etc.
I have a specific question about the spellslinger. I'm playing one in this AP and there's no way I can see to get that much damage from one shot, even with named bullet.
+5 gun from burning a high spell slot
×4 because it's an automatic critical (as long as it hits at all and is confirmed too. There's still a decent chance of a misfire).
Add in 1 damage per caster level which is not multiplied
And the damage dice (d12 or d8).
Edit: plus point blank shot and deadly aim
(12+5+1+4)×4= 88 plus caster level maximum damage.
If the spellslinger is high enough level to have additional damage dice from burning a really high level spell slot, then he might be able to add eg the flaming property but that doesn't multiply. He can only have one slot spent at a time on the gun and Disintegrate does more damage than named bullet.
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I would chalk a lot of it up to the fact that this is our GM's first time running. He didn't really look into things too heavily, and more or less let us play what we wanted without restricting us much.
However, this has turned into more of a discussion of what went wrong, and I was searching for advice about how to help him as a new GM. How does someone new to GMing learn to adjust the module for specific builds? What are adjustments he can make without being too punishing, or to make his players feel like they are being targeted?
He told me that in the Barl fight he didn't have him fly because he didn't want half the people in the group to get bored because they couldn't do anything to him. With the fight with Erylium earlier in the campaign, the group got very frustrated because they couldn't do enough damage to her while she was flying above their heads to counter her fast healing. I thought that was more of a lack of insight, or thinking outside the box for the group, but that was just me. (I wasn't playing at that time, just heard about it later)
The quick, child-like over-simplified and annoying answer is: Experience. This is arguably the hardest part of being a GM. And not one easily solved on an internet forum. But that's not going to stop me from trying :)
1. Read the Core Rulebook section on Game Mastering and the entirety of the Game Mastery Guide. Pedantic I know, but if you read that material and think about what it means and how you want to approach things, you'll get something out of it.
2. If you're new, nothing wrong with "Core Rulebook Only." More rules, more classes, more feats, mean more complexity. If a player can't find something interesting to do in the Core Rulebook, they're not really trying.
3. And when you do open things up to additional material, it doesn't mean anything goes. Guns are not universally available across Golarion (as far as I understand) and Varisia is not on the list. How did a gunslinger end up in Sandpoint? If the PC's backstory is "I want to play one, who cares where he came from?" there's nothing wrong with "Request Denied. Re-submit in 90 days for final disapproval."
4. You are not punishing your players when you reveal their one-dimensional limitations. If your character is useless for anything besides melee, then guess what? Some of the time, you're not going to have anything to do. Maybe you should diversify. The power of flight is a huge tactical advantage - why do you think these BBEG's sold their soul, spent dozens of years mastering magic, etc. so they could have it? Punishing your players would be giving every npc/monster the power of flight - potions, rings, boots, carpets, etc. (Though that can backfire - eventually the pc's will be getting those items and now on top of all their other powers, they can fly too!)
5. Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. The GM's role is to present the world and adventure in a fair and accurate way (and in some cases to create it, but the advantage of an AP is most of that work is done for you.) It is not his role to cater to the PC's or make sure nothing is ever hard. The fight with Elyrium is a challenge and it's supposed to be. The structure of that encounter is setup so that the players can retreat, re-arm/re-strategize and return. It's meant to teach them to plan for such eventualities in the future when perhaps the retreat option will be less practical.
I'd also put:
6. Know your group.
7. Sit down and discuss what everybody wants/expects from the game.
Otherwise, Latrecis has it right, IMO.
Ruyan.
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Another thing - how many players do you have?
The AP's are meant for a 4 person party - they are balanced with the idea of one full BAB class - 2 utility and 1 caster.
If you have a different mix - it means adjustment.
Just from your example a fighter and a gunslinger (which is a big damage class) means that stuff will die fast - the *simple* rules I use to *start* balancing is as follows:
For each full BAB class past 1 (i.e. damage focus) add 50% to the hps of each creature.
For each utility class past 2(i.e. 3/4 BAB - this includes clerics, rouges, etc.) increase all saves, dcs, etc. by 1.
For each caster past 1 - add one APL CR monster to each encounter.
That's a start, then adjust from there if things aren't quite happening.
When I started running RoTRL I had a seven person party - these changes kept the combats pretty much in line without any other major adjusting. And the nice thing is they can be done without a ton of rebuilding encounters.
Ckorik, would you mind providing a list of which Pathfinder classes fit into each of your three categories, please?
Full BAB- Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, Gunslinger, Cavalier, etc
3/4 BAB- Magus, Cleric, Bard, Rogue, Druid, Alchemist, Summoner, Inquisitor, etc
caster- witch, wizard, sorcerer
Thanks! I suppose what interests me about that approach is why clerics and druids aren't considered casters.
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Thanks! I suppose what interests me about that approach is why clerics and druids aren't considered casters.
Look at their spell lists - they do (typically) one of two things: buff/debuff or help make the character more martial for a combat - while it's entirely possible to make a nuking cleric - it's not easy and rare to see, if you have a cleric that goes down that path and takes spell focus evocation greater spell focus evocation (or enchantment - honestly) and devotes his spell list to holy smite/command/greater command/hold person/sound burst with nothing else - you may want to consider him a full caster for these adjustments.
What I find in practice though is that the cleric will usually have a mix of group buffs/enemy debuffs - flashy cool spells (like spiritual weapon) and a cure or two in case of a really bad day. Even if the cleric goes full on blaster he's still not going to do as good of a job as a wizard or sorcerer though.
Druids... they can be a bit tricky - I'd put a full on feral druid with animal companion on the edge of full BAB - and a full on caster druid (with the right domains) can come very close to a nuker - while one that walks the line (say has an animal but doesn't like to shape change or summon) is right there with the cleric - much comes down to how the player is using the character.
These are just fast and loose rules - I will say the only time to be careful is when doing boss fights - you are almost always better off with boss fights to do HPs and add critters for balance than DC's\saves - bosses tend to already be much higher level than the players and a point or two swing can make it very very dangerous - as always though try to figure out what your group is capable of.
Another thing that can help is (assuming you have any of the bestiaries) look in the back at the simple templates - use of these sprinkled into an encounter can juice things up - some of them are easy enough to do at the table if you realize your encounter is just a tad too easy...
Advanced template - quick rules:
Add 2 to all rolls (including damage and DCs)
+4 to AC and CMD; +2 hps per hit die (so a 4d8 creature gets 8 hps)
Nothing flashy but it's easy enough to toss on something to make it a bit more of a challenge.
If you guys make it past level 12 - this is when you might want to take a 1 session break to run some trial combats - use some higher level encounters to get a feel for how to GM them - the game changes at this point and a fighter at level 11 does typically around 38 damage - at level 12 it's like 88 points - this break is where most GM's get frustrated and games putter out - there are so many abilities - spells - buffs - debuffs - it can get really complex to keep track of. Generally things to watch out for is - make sure spells do what they say they do - and take the correct casting time - a full round cast can't be used as a quickened spell and doesn't come into play until the start of the casters *next* turn (for example - silence is a biggie). Other things would be to make sure you take into account things like perception taking a -1 per 10 feet. Even a guy with 30 perception can fail to see a dragon if it's far enough away to start - don't be afraid to use situational modifiers if they seem reasonable (dragon is smart - it's flying with the sun at it's back, -20 to see it).
End rule is though - have fun - the players at the end of the day are supposed to win - you are doing it right if your average 'adventuring day' between rests sees the party have 1-2 cakewalks - 1-2 'that could have been bad if you failed your save and turned to stone bob' fights - and 1 'ooh I think I might want to ignore that the creature just crit *again*' fight, reality is however - that if your group is like mine - the cakewalk with be the party rolling 1's for 30 mins straight wondering why they got out of bed this morning to be beaten up by goblin wives - and the big boss fight will see your fighter crit followed by a the wizard rolling max damage dice on his spell and the group wondering what the big deal was.
But I'll guarantee you that 6 months later they'll still talk about that goblin wife fight with big grins.
Erebus, could you tell us the make-up of your party? Number of PCs, levels, etc. It looks like you should be around 10th level, but it would be helpful to know how many PCs and what classes you have on hand.
Spellslinger is a wizard archetype for gun use. A bit like a magus or arcane archer in that they can do a bit of casting or magic through their bullets. Gun Mage I think was its name in Iron Kingdoms.
Our group has actually mostly banned gunslingers altogether, and most summoners. We're going to give summoner one more shot in this next campaign, but my last gunslinger ruined it for the group so it's an unwritten no-no now.
Best advice I can give is you don't want to necessarily punish the players for making a good build. As long as some of the encounters are a challenge, don't take it too hard if the rest are mostly a cakewalk. As long as all the players are still having fun is the main goal. That and being engaged in the story. Oh, and because sometimes the players walk all over the bad guys you thought would be cool, try not to get too attached. They are meant to get in their way on the path to greatness, so they are predefined to be terminated.
One thing that occurs to me is that two of the characters in the party (the cleric and bard) exist as support characters. This will have the result of making the front line combatants seem stronger.
Having a healing cleric lets the combat guys take more risks, and a bard is great for party buffs.
If you turned the bard into a rogue or ranger, and turned the cleric into a necromancer cleric, I bet you would find that the fighter and spellslinger have their abilities diminished, as they no longer have the support they once had.
Peet
With my party I have found that I need to boost all encounters , for bosses I add a few levels and some mooks to delay the PC's.
For this fight my players had already killed everyone else in the complex burning off quite a few spells to do so.
The Giant boss Barl knew they were coming and so had precast a lot of buffs , he also had an improved invisibility which he cast as they came in. Then a Wave of Exhaustion badly nerfed the party , they still killed him fairly quickly but it was an effort. He was flying along the roof so he was hard to find.
You need to know your group and upgrade opponents as necessary , you also need to use the bad guys abilities intelligently, spellcasters in particular need to get some spells off before the pc's arrive.
The next caster boss had cast about a dozen spells before the pc's came in on him which gave the players several problems. A massed Stinkng cloud/Solid Fog/Cloudkill which the boss could see through was a significant tactical problem until they remembered a scroll of Gust of Winf