My players have just finished the glassworks and will be heading into the catacombs of wrath next session. I am concerned with how they will deal with Erylium.
She can fly, is hard to hit, has DR, fast healing, and can turn invisible at will. So presumably if she is in danger she would just turn invisible and fly off.
The party has found Tsuto's diary so they know that a Quasit is around. Hopefully they will be smart enough to research things about Quasits before going down there, but even if they do I question whether they will actually be able to beat her, since it is very easy for her to escape from them.
They don't have glitterdust or faerie fire so I'm really not sure how they will cope with the invisibility issue. Since she flies, throwing powder or water around on the ground won't help.
How did your players overcome these issues?
Peet
They taunted her and threatened the runewell, then drowned her.
I think I'll be editing the layout so the party has to go past Koruvus first, so that they have Koruvus' stuff when they get there (including the magical longsword). That doesn't help that much though.
They will probably also have the wand of shocking grasp though I don't see how that does them a lot of good.
Anyone else?
Peet
They just came and killed Erylium. :)
Invisibility is a tricky thing. If the doors leading inside Cathedral are closed, and you assume that there's enough illumination, to have very little shadows inside - I don't agree that using invisibility in front of players, in combat, will make quasit to disappear. Yes, she'll be invisible, but it doesn't give her a free stealth check with some high bonuses to truly disappear - she's doing it in front of players, in combat, maybe after some movement - she's observed. If she had something like Hide in Plain Sight, then yes, she could use invisibility, and freely roll stealth checks to hide when observed. But she doesn't, so she'll be doing poor job trying to hide, even with the spell-like ability (presume that she's observed when doing it) without flying in shadows to roll some stealth there.
So... Just don't describe the place as one with good illumination. You'll avoid then potential debates on the topic of disappearing.
My players ran into the problem of her high DR and fast healing. They didn't do any research ahead of time, so they didn't really have anything that could hurt her other than brute force. Their initial volley of spells didn't disable her, and they shrugged off the best she could throw at them.
Finally, the party's tough guy just reached up and grabbed her, and held her in the pool until the bubbles stopped. Brutal, yes, but it worked.
I used different stats so she was a less sucky encounter. :D
As written she's practically impossible to kill, but does practically no damage, and is probably best ignored. When I played it (before GMing it later) AIR we eventually trapped her in a side chamber, after several encounters. It was extremely tedious.
When I ran that encounter one of the players grabbed her, pinned her, tied her up, shoved her into a sack the party had and then CdG'd her with her quarterstaff. My party were pissed off with her so they chucked her corpse in the glassworks furnace on the way out.
For those encounters where the party grappled her in some way, how did they do it? If erylium has any brains she will be flying 20' off the ground. Was someone enlarged? Or could someone fly? Did they use a net?
Peet
I don't agree that using invisibility in front of players, in combat, will make quasit to disappear. Yes, she'll be invisible, but it doesn't give her a free stealth check with some high bonuses to truly disappear - she's doing it in front of players, in combat, maybe after some movement - she's observed.
I'm not sure I understand this, Ashkar.
Invisibility grants a creature total concealment as soon as it goes into effect, so there's no reason such a creature couldn't make a stealth check, even when moving. And her stealth is already +21.
What am I missing?
Peet
Yeah, our 6ft 7 aasimar was enlarged which gave her the chance to grapple the little bugger. I may have fudged the rolls somewhat as they were getting pretty frustrated with the whole encounter.
A, don't bother yourself. I spoke with my friend about Invisibility, Hide in Plain Sight, steals check to rid myself of doubts. It's just that I had a situation, where players didn't agree that npc went invisible, because he did it in front of them. It was a bit of debate at the time (my players always try to outsmart me).
If your players will try to debate too, just say them that invisibility doesn't grant total silence. Sometimes they forget about rolling perception on sounds, which is easier to detect (at most times).
And sorry for my English, not a native speaker.
Generally invisible creatures still have to make stealth check to be stealthy. If you become invisible and do not make stealth checks - you are pretty much audible to most, not visible, but audible. So if it's a battle and a little demon thinks being extra stealthy is a drag, a moderate perception check will find her by sound.
There are dozens of other ways how logic can hinder this spell, like throwing around water, sand, cloth and observing the patterns. Using effect causing area spells or simple divination spells like detect magic or detect evil. Bumping into it at random is also a plausible way. You certainly know she's there, why not try.
My players readied for her to become visible, then the barbarian with javelins, and the party inquisitor, who specialized in hunting demons, had cold iron arrows to ignore her DR. She ended up running, Killing a player a Thiseltop before running again. She finally got killed in Book 4.
There is already an entire thread dedicated to this topic.
Our GM forgot about the invisibility so that helped but otherwise ranged attacks w/ smiting Paladin pretty much did her in for our group.
Thanks for the link, Nobody. Interesting stuff.
I may have Erylium fight to the death because she refuses to abandon the runewell.
Peet
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I'm not sure if Erylium would fight to the death, but she definitely wouldn't leave the Catacombs. Ten thousand years of being trapped in an underground complex has left her with a massive agoraphobic psychosis, so the common tactic of "flee to Thistletop" never really sets right with me. I think she would go invisible and hide somewhere to rest up. Unless the PCs start "defiling" the shrine to Lamashtu. Then she'd fight to the death. That's her boss you're messing with!
When my group first encountered her, she fled while invisible once reduced to low hp. She ordered the sinspawn in the Ancient Prison and Koruvus to immediately head for the Cathedral. The players defeated them but retreated above ground before she had fully recovered. When the pc's returned, she had positioned the zombies at B1 and B12 [I determined that with 10,000 years and not much else to do, she would have figured out how to get them out of the pits. Even it was only a few months ago when the Sinspawn or Nualia could have helped pull them out.]
Once those zombies were defeated, the pc's confronted her in the Cathedral along with the last of the zombies. As the zombies died and she exhausted her spells to defeat the pc's, she summoned another sinspawn (past the limit directed in the AP) When she was out of effective spells, she drank from the Runewell to get the rage benefit and charged the PC's, outraged beyond reason at the intrusion into her domain and the slaughter of her minions.
Why did I play her that way? For all the reasons listed above - between flight, invisibility, fast healing 2 and DR 5/cold iron, my players might have never killed her if she only cared about her own survival. But she needs to defend both the Shrine and the Cathedral or lose Lamashtu's favor.
The first thing to keep in mind that Erylium's "at-will" invisibility still requires a standard action to activate and provokes attacks-of-opportunity (if activated in melee). The standard tactic is to wait for Erylium to exhaust her spells (summon monster) and provoke her into making melee attacks to break her invisibility. PCs can ready an action with ranged weapons to "shoot her when she becomes visible."
The other standard method is to grapple her and then drown her in the conveniently-placed pool in the center of her room. My PCs used Enlarge Person to give the fighter the reach, strength and size difference to make his grapple essentially inescapable (grappled creatures get a -4 penalty to Dex which, as a Tiny creature, is Erylium's only bonus to CMB).
Finally, if the PCs reach a stalemate with Erylium, they can always try to talk to her. If they threaten to seal her in her room, she'll make a bolt for the door, shapechange into her centipede form and try and dig her way to escape. I'd give a PC waiting in the doorway a bonus to detect her as she flies through, invisible or no.
Yeah, I figure Erylium's "script" will probably go something like this:
1. Cause Fear 30' radius
2. Invisibility
3. Summon Monster II
4. Summon Monster I
5. Slumber Hex or Hold Person (breaks invisibility) on someone close to her monsters
6. Ray of Enfeeblement or Slumber Hex
7. Slumber Hex
8. Slumber Hex
9. Command someone to "approach" as she hovers above the runewell
etc.
Basically she can sling things that immobilize or weaken players and that is valid as long as she has critters available. But once her minions are dead, she doesn't have a lot she can do to people other than throw the dagger or engage in melee. I might have her use invisibility to get into someone's space to attack since her melee attacks are poisonous. At first she probably figures she can take a few hits, with her DR and fast healing.
Peet
My party decided to kill themselves and/or each other.
Party:
Half-elf Shaman
Aasimar Oracle
Dwarf Fighter/Ranger
Human Sorcerer
Human Barbarian
The half-elf shaman started the whole shebang by deciding to drink the tainted waters on the shrine of Lamashtu. She then failed the fort save (ad hoc -4 penalty applied), took the ability damage and I described some wracking pain as her legs suddenly bent backwards at the knees, etc, etc, etc. She took her dagger and chose to coup de grace herself. She uttered the word "vengeance" just before dying.
The remaining 3 PCs voted to carry on - straight into Erylium's chambers.
The only person with range at this point is the human sorcerer, which was a bronze draconic bloodline and therefore lightning themed. He also had a high STR (angling toward the prestige class) with a nodachi. So he was effectively useless, but he also found out the water did cold damage when it was splashed on him (made the save against the rage effect). We'll come back to this.
The barbarian failed against the fear effect. She ran away for 4 rounds, so she's out of combat for 8 total.
The oracle decided the only way to handle this was to try the drowning tactic. He ended up in a flank with the fighter/ranger.
That's when the sorcerer struck...dumping a waterskin full of rage-water on the quasit and seeing it splash on the oracle, the fighter/ranger, and himself.
The quasit was unaffected.
The oracle took the cold damage, but saved against the rage.
The sorcerer again saved, but again took more cold damage.
The fighter/ranger, predictably, didn't fair as well. He split his attacks against the quasit, then the barbarian when she came back and got too close (took her out with a crit), took the oracle out after the quasit escaped the grapple...knocking the oracle unconscious in the middle of a pool of water...and then he took out the sorcerer in one final shot.
Being the lone survivor and horrified at what he'd done (once the rage wore off), he retired to a life of drunken sloth, never to adventure again.
Ultimately it came down to some really bad rolls (they didn't miss the saves by 1 or 2, and the raging fighter/ranger managed to roll *very* nicely against the rest of the party), down a party member to begin with, and bad tactics (at one point the sorcerer was the one trying to maintain the grapple/pin to drown Erylium).
Yeah, I figure Erylium's "script" will probably go something like this:
1. Cause Fear 30' radius
2. Invisibility
3. Summon Monster II
4. Summon Monster I
5. Slumber Hex or Hold Person (breaks invisibility) on someone close to her monsters
6. Ray of Enfeeblement or Slumber Hex
7. Slumber Hex
8. Slumber Hex
9. Command someone to "approach" as she hovers above the runewelletc.
Basically she can sling things that immobilize or weaken players and that is valid as long as she has critters available. But once her minions are dead, she doesn't have a lot she can do to people other than throw the dagger or engage in melee. I might have her use invisibility to get into someone's space to attack since her melee attacks are poisonous. At first she probably figures she can take a few hits, with her DR and fast healing.
Peet
I had Erylium monologuing every round despite her invisibility, which gave the PCs Per-check opportunities to determine which square she currently occupied (cutting her +40 to stealth checks to +20 - rough, but possible). She still had 50% concealment, but the Alchemist managed to tag her with a bomb or two.
Of course, one of the PCs failed a save vs. Fear and fled the chamber, only recovering after she'd alerted the two Sinspawn in the "jail" area. She ended up dragging them with her when she ran back to rejoin the fight.
One of the characters in the party is a half-orc fighter who has been a GMPC as the player has yet to be available for a game. So I have given that character the Keen Scent feat.
I am also rejiggering the dungeon so you need to go through the two sinspawn and Koruvus to get to Erylium. It just seems strange to me that you can walk into the most important section of the catacombs without encountering anything except the one sinspawn in the cave outside.
Peet
I had Erylium monologuing every round despite her invisibility, ...
What did you have her say?
Peet
Remember that the original entrance was another one which changes the order of rooms (+ this is no MMORPG with trash mobs and a boss fight).
Ruyan.
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Remember that the original entrance was another one which changes the order of rooms (+ this is no MMORPG with trash mobs and a boss fight).
Ruyan.
She started the fight rather imperious that her "kingdom" had been invaded. When the first wave of Wrathspawn closed in on the party fighter, she told him that they could "smell the Wrath on him," and that he must have slain "many of the half-elf's goblins."
As the fight wore on, she dropped some hints about the Scribbler, and the ages that had passed since the catacombs had collapsed. She told the PCs that soon her runewell would be overflowing with the wrath of "innocent souls, brutally ripped from life" in the "world above," and she'd finally lead them to freedom.
As the fight turned against her, she tried to bargain, telling the PCs she'd teach them "the Mother's secrets," just as she'd taught the "silver-haired witch."
I didn't have her come out and explain any of it directly, but here's stuff she hinted at:
- Killings in Sandpoint refill the runewells and allow for Sinspawn to be summoned
- Sinspawn hunt those that indulge in their sin
- Both Nualia and Erylium serve Lamashtu, and that Nualia was Lamashtu's "chosen"
- The Catacombs were originally the home of her master, the Scribbler
- Erylium had taught Nualia the ritual she was using to excise her celestial heritage
Nobody had a high enough Knowledge skill to get the connection between "innocent souls" and the Barghest's favored food, but I was prepared to reveal that as well.
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Thanks, Soylent, I'm totally cribbing from this.
I laughed when I read her stats. She is almost invincible for the PC levels. She can fly & turn invisible at will and has fast healing 2. Plus she has AC 22 (24 with Shield of Faith). Her spells are nothing but her most potent ability is her poison (hit +11 with her claws): Dex 1/4 - sec. 2d4. So she can potentially paralyze a PC. If she is in trouble, she can fly to the ceiling of her catedral turn invisible and wait til she get back her full 30 life.
How did my PCs deals with her? I played her overconfident otherwise it would have been impossible. I didn't play her cautious. I only retreated twice to get some life back. Whenever she went for an attack, her invisibility broke. Eventually those force darts and lucky great sword hits got her.
You're the DM, so you could nurf her down if you think she is too much. If you think Erylium is bad, Malfeshnekor is just ridiculous. If that's an optional boss on booklet 1 of 6. I can't imagine what is an optional boss on booklet 5 & 6.
Wait Soylent how did she do this since she can't speak Common?
It's been noted (in the Anniversary Edition Errata thread) that Erylium has too few languages, and Common suggested as a sensible addition. After all, she has spent many years spying on the surface world, and the first thing she does when the PCs encounter her is shout something at them. Also, as written, Erylium and Nualia don't have a language in common.
I found nothing which hinted at Erylium knowing about the "mechanics" behind the runewell but what Tybid wrote can be found on p38 of RotRL AE.
Further notes about it can be found at Thistletop (Nualia's journal, p62 RotRL AE).
But as Kalshane wrote: as DM, in your game you're the final arbiter.
Ruyan.
Hmmm. Nualia studied with Erylium. Any entries in her journal about the Runewell seem most plausibly to have come from the quasit. Keep in mind, Erylium has been in the area since the Runewell was last active 10,000 years ago, it seems likely she has a pretty good idea how it works. What neither Erylium nor Nualia know is how to re-activate it if it ever goes to 0 - hence their collective reluctance to overwork it until charged much higher.
Assuming the PCs defeat Erylium's summoned monsters (and sinspawn), any other move she makes against them is going to make her visible. After that, they just need to incapacitate her. Grappling (as mentioned above) is good, if a burly PC can reach her. Sleep, or variants thereof, is good, too.
Sleep, or variants thereof, is good, too.
You need to have a variant that doesn't include the sleep spell's 4 HD restriction, of course - such as a witch's slumber hex.
i don't know how many times my party (which with a Gnome, a Halfling, a Dwarf and a Catfolk) tops out at 5 feet even) comes up to a big giant towering monster and my wife's gnome witch casts slumber and they just stroll on by:) funny stuff!
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In my game, with a bunch of Pathfinder newbies, Erylium was used to demonstrate what the "next step up" in encounter difficulty. She's got DR, which introduces the concept of carrying silver/cold iron weapons (well within a pc's budget even at that level). She's got invisibility, which gives the PCs a chance to brainstorm methods for defeating it. She's got spells that target saves, which show the PCs which classes will be vulnerable to similar attacks based on their save progressions. Erylium is actually a rather forgiving fight: PCs can safely ignore he while dealing with her minions for the most part, and she can't really put out any damage on her own. In return, her regen lets PCs beat on her until they get the hint that there *must* a better way to take her on.
Finally, I used Erylium to introduce the idea of *being prepared*. Using Knowledge checks to get an idea of what they're facing, rather than wading in and using the same default attack over and over. In my game, a PC received a Harrow reading from Madame Mvashti that hinted at a demonic influence below the town, and the PCs wisely went to Father Zantus for advice. A scroll of Weapons Against Evil was something he had handy, but wouldn't have supplied if the PCs hadn't thought to ask ;-)
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My group did the research, bought the weapons at a discount from Savah, and then went down and killed her. A couple of things work against Erylium in this fight.
1.) Invisibility takes her standard action making that a round where she can not act.
2.) Summons are a full round casting so they go off right before her next action. This essentially (given vocal component) lets the party know exactly what square she is in. This also allows them to disrupt her spells. Beyond her summons most of her spells and abilities break her invisibility.
They didn't cake walk this encounter certainly but neither did it become anything resembling a TPK.
They found the journal and realized that they needed to research or find someone who knew what a quasit was before facing it. After a little asking around they discovered that one of the more knowledge heavy folks in town was Madame Mvashti (who I changed to a full fledged witch).
They asked her for the information and she demanded a price.
The bard is well known in town and everyone knows that she has been studying and practicing for the lead part in the Harpy's Queen (the magnimar diva having departed quickly after the attack on the festival). Mvashti demanded the price of, 'taking the bard's place in the last act of the Harpy's Queen'.
At first she flat out refused (pride) but eventually agreed to allow the old woman to take her place.
So much fun. :)
They used a hero point to hit her with 2 tanglefoot bags, causing her to fizzle roughly 3/4 of her spells. They used ranseurs which they'd cast Align Good on. I ruled that with an Acrobatics check, they could jump straight up and stab her, while she was at the ceiling. They bled into the pool, and the bleeding party member got murdered by the sinspawn and the fiendish Eagle she managed to successfully summon. She crit failed and nosedived into the pool (not the Runewell) while trying to Touch of Fatigue the half-orc barbarian.
Mostly, I had her making fly checks every time she moved, and I purposefully bombed half of them, so she'd fall and get AoO'ed.