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Rogue.By playing ANYTHING, getting nearly all of its class abilities plus plenty of extra goodies.
Nonsense. You think a ftr or a barbarian is improved? Any full BAB class?
Stop with the generalities. Show me a single 11th or 15th level character that is significantly and clearly better than its counterpart.
Eh. The bonuses they gain are probably worth the one level delay in everything and the 2 skill points and Favored Class per level losses...but not by a lot. They gain more than they lose...but I dunno if it's enough to make that a good build.
Now Warpriest...there's a class where despite any losses, your gains are almost certainly very worth it indeed. Full BAB-1 and everything Evangelist gives is solid. Summoner's probably solid, too, though the level delayed Eidolon hurts a bit.
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Rogue.By playing ANYTHING, getting nearly all of its class abilities plus plenty of extra goodies.
Nonsense. You think a ftr or a barbarian is improved? Any full BAB class?
Stop with the generalities. Show me a single 11th or 15th level character that is significantly and clearly better than its counterpart.
You lose BAB, hit points, saving throws (they'll all be the same or less as a straight rogue depending on level). And a feat. You lose skill points. You get access to major rogue talents a level later. You're 1/2 a die in sneak attack behind.
Oh, at some specific levels it will be better. At others, worse.
Sorry, doesn't seem like a clearly and significantly better choice to me.
Care to try again?
Note: I'm NOT saying the prestige class is bad. It isn't. It can be quite decent mechanically and WONDERFUL in terms of flavour. What it isn't is overpowered cheese that all mini-maxers will take.
Rogue.By playing ANYTHING, getting nearly all of its class abilities plus plenty of extra goodies.
Nonsense. You think a ftr or a barbarian is improved? Any full BAB class?
Stop with the generalities. Show me a single 11th or 15th level character that is significantly and clearly better than its counterpart.
You lose BAB, hit points, saving throws (they'll all be the same or less as a straight rogue depending on level). And a feat. You lose skill points. You get access to major rogue talents a level later. You're 1/2 a die in sneak attack behind.
Oh, at some specific levels it will be better. At others, worse.
Sorry, doesn't seem like a clearly and significantly better choice to me.
Care to try again?
You don't lose on hit points, BAB, and saving throws if you enter at the right level, and if your using fractional you sure don't lose any of those things. At worst you wait one level on it, and you don't lose access to using extra rogue talent to get it. Your one level behind in progression in a very minor class feature. Lovely. What you will lose from the chassis is 2 skill points per level and favored class might take away from hp, skill points, or one of those third options. What you get, is everything the evangelist has to offer in turn.
The joke was that the rogue is a pretty poor class to begin with and its saves/bab match the evangelist. Hard to go anywhere but up! That said, if losing one level from any class, regardless of the value of that level, means its not good enough for you, then your standards are high enough that nothing is going to make them, even if the exchange actually is better.
You don't lose on hit points, BAB, and saving throws if you enter at the right levelRogue.By playing ANYTHING, getting nearly all of its class abilities plus plenty of extra goodies.
Nonsense. You think a ftr or a barbarian is improved? Any full BAB class?
Stop with the generalities. Show me a single 11th or 15th level character that is significantly and clearly better than its counterpart.
You lose BAB, hit points, saving throws (they'll all be the same or less as a straight rogue depending on level). And a feat. You lose skill points. You get access to major rogue talents a level later. You're 1/2 a die in sneak attack behind.
Oh, at some specific levels it will be better. At others, worse.
Sorry, doesn't seem like a clearly and significantly better choice to me.
Care to try again?
Level 8, however 10 levels of rogue compared to 10 levels of evang from there give 4/5/4 saves compared to 3/5/3 saves.
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One of my players totally blew my mind tonight when they called me to bring this to my attention.
Aligned Class (Ex) Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.How is this class ability not totally broken!? Even if you discount that it may let you progress a prestige class, it is still literally better than going straight classed nearly every time!
What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!
Discuss.
Look the cost and maybe you will get a idea of why it isn't so good as it appear if the GM applies all the class related rules.
Obedience (Ex)
In order to maintain the abilities granted by this prestige class, including all abilities gained from aligned class, an evangelist must perform a daily obedience to her chosen deity.
A daily obedience require 1 hour, some are easy (Adabar obedience can be done in a closed room), some a bit lees (Cayden obedience require you to drink and chant a drinking song with a voice strong enough to be heard by friends or foes), some are more problematic if you aren't in a friendly area (Desna require you to dance under the stars or while reciting the names of all the stars you know with your eyes closed) and other can have RP limitations (Sheylin require you to create a new piece of poetry [not a work of art] every day, something that isn't so easy to do).
My experience is that you will risk lacking the time you need to make the obedience exactly when you need your class ability more, the days in which you are suffering from a heavy time pressure.Missing the obedience stop all of your evangelist abilities (beside BAB, ST, skills and hit points) from working, Aligned Class included, so you would revert back to your former level as far as spellcasting, class abilities, feat acquired from class progression and so on.
It is the first instance in Pathfinder in which recording the order in which you acquired your abilities become important as you can actually lose ability levels.
So it all depend on the GM. If he apply the obedience and require the PC to actually do it, it is a serious limitation, if it is hand waived it is a meaningless limitation.
Note that a lot of the obedience require equipment. Again it is not granted that you will have it in all setting and situations.
Cayden require some alcoholic drink. After 2 weeks in the desert you still have some? Or you will memorize the spell that turn poison to ale and milk the local animals or venom?
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Then again that's a different topic. Unless... someone somehow though the obedience really balance out the class, but that's sort of ridiculous. imo anyway.
Yes, if you start with the attitude: "The GM should never require me to do my obedience or lose my powers." it isn't a limitation. As having to be rested to regain your spells if you are an arcane spellcaster isn't a limitation if the GM never enforce it.
On the other hand if the GM enforce it, it can be a serious limitation.|
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Well, lost my powers guys... time to get coffee. You guys want anything while I'm gone? I mean, except Jeff for putting me in a situation I can't play. He gets his coffee, IN THE FACE!Unlike burning a spellbook, though, this particular restriction costs the character nothing long-term. It's more like an Antimagic Field. You're screwed while it's ongoing, but fine when its duration elapses.And there's now another way to reduce you to 5th level casting, and weaknesses like that are always unpleasant to deal with.All or nothing has never been a great balance though. Its essentially have fun or you aren't playing your class anymore. Its why burning a wizards spell book gets touchy.
Great attitude: "The GM should never inconvenience me, my character can have glaring weaknesses but my opponents should never use them or the GM is a jerk."
Also, I think you guys are WAY overestimating the power of 1 caster level. More than one and it could certainly be crippling, but being just one behind isn't much of anything at all.
I find this notion of "it's only one caster level!" always amusing. Yes, in theory that doesn't sound like very much. In practice, it results in your character looking and feeling like a weakling compared to the ones which took the single class approach. It gets less noticeable the higher level you get, but for the first half of a campaign, prepare yourself for not contributing as much as you could to the fights.
It gets extremely annoying when you are playing a spontaneous caster with delayed spell progression and have a wizard in your party. Now you are not only half the campaign behind in power, but the entire one.
Great attitude: "The GM should never inconvenience me, my character can have glaring weaknesses but my opponents should never use them or the GM is a jerk."
OTOH, burning a player characters spellbooks is a sure way to turn your game into an antagonistic paranoia play. You can be sure that the player will make your job much less pleasant after you've gone this far to annoy him.
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I'll note again, being denied your Obedience isn't equivalent to having your spell-book destroyed. It's not even really equivalent to having it stolen (though that's closer), since you lose a max of 9 caster levels rather than 20, and regaining the power is much easier and less costly.
It's a limiting factor, sure, but not nearly as punitive of one to enforce.
Also:
It is the first instance in Pathfinder in which recording the order in which you acquired your abilities become important as you can actually lose ability levels.
Huh? No it isn't. It doesn't matter whether you're Bard 7/Evangelist 4 or Bard 5/Evangelist 4/Bard 2, you're effectively a 10th level Bard for class abilities...or a 7th level one sans Obedience. Either way, your abilities are the same regardless of the order you gained the abilities and classes in. Losing only some caster levels (and thus some spells...where I guess order matters) is I guess new, but order of classes and other abilities is still not relevant, only spells known, and even that only for spontaneous casters.
So it all depend on the GM. If he apply the obedience and require the PC to actually do it, it is a serious limitation, if it is hand waived it is a meaningless limitation.
This is true.
Note that a lot of the obedience require equipment. Again it is not granted that you will have it in all setting and situations.
This is true, but the equipment is mostly not expended, which makes it relatively easy for the most part. There are a few exceptions, but you can usually work around them.
Cayden require some alcoholic drink. After 2 weeks in the desert you still have some? Or you will memorize the spell that turn poison to ale and milk the local animals or venom?
Uh...I'll note again, Clerics and Inquisitors of Cayden Cailean have an Orison for this. And there's a previously mentioned 1k GP item.
Pharasmins are a bit screwed, though.
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It is the first instance in Pathfinder in which recording the order in which you acquired your abilities become important as you can actually lose ability levels.Huh? No it isn't. It doesn't matter whether you're Bard 7/Evangelist 4 or Bard 5/Evangelist 4/Bard 2, you're effectively a 10th level Bard for class abilities...or a 7th level one sans Obedience. Either way, your abilities are the same regardless of the order you gained the abilities and classes in. Losing only some caster levels (and thus some spells...where I guess order matters) is I guess new, but order of classes and other abilities is still not relevant, only spells known, and even that only for spontaneous casters.
Spellcasters aren't the only classes that exist in the game.
Fighter. Removing the bonus feat can stop the normal feat from working if the bonus feat is a prerequisite.
Other classes that get bonus feat: same.
And then you have the bonus spell you learn as you advance in level. If you take 5 levels as a wizard or witch, then 10 levels of Evangelist , then again some level as a wizard/witch you can chose 2 high level spells when you take your 2 free spells when you gain a level a level, but the 18 spells you gained as a evangelist are a class feature and they should not work if your evangelist powers don't work.
It is strange and probably a not foreseen secondary effect, but you will lose access to some spell that are in your spellbook.
That can be a bit of a mess for a spontaneous spellcaster too. You will have 6+level as a bard, 10 not working levels as an evangelist, but the spell know of a 5th level bard plus what you learned as a level 15+ bard at level 16+.
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Cayden require some alcoholic drink. After 2 weeks in the desert you still have some? Or you will memorize the spell that turn poison to ale and milk the local animals or venom?Uh...I'll note again, Clerics and Inquisitors of Cayden Cailean have an Orison for this. And there's a previously mentioned 1k GP item.
Pharasmins are a bit screwed,...
And the cantrip in what book is printed? The player has access to it? He has selected it as a know cantrip if he is a inquisitor or oracle? What happen is he is not a divine spellcaster?
Same for the magic item.
And still you have to sing your singing song for a full hour with a strong voice, capable to be heard by friend or foes.
Great for an infiltration mission or even the ears of the wizard that need to sleep to memorize his spells.
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The Holy Roman Empire was not Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss.
[I can't resist.]
At what point are we talking? In the Napoleonic era, sure. By then it was in decline. Holiness in general wasn't what it used to be by then.
But in the Middle Ages? The HRE had at least one real subordinate kingdom (Bohemia), ruled several ethnicities of people (Dutch/Fleming/Walloon, Swiss) besides "standard" Germans, had pretensions to a supreme political position in Europe that weren't completely laughed off by the other kingdoms, and many of the more powerful duchies were definitely comparable in power to some of the smaller independent kingdoms of Europe. So I don't think the claim to Empire was all that hollow.
As for Roman - they retained and even reintroduced a significant amount of Roman Law, and used a church hierarchy that was based on the old Roman imperial administration. As for the other "Romaioi" in Europe, the Byzantine Empire was as much Greek as it was Roman.
As for holiness - the HRE and its precursor Carolingian Empire was a significant force for christianizing Europe and opposing muslim conquest in Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean. And there's the whole thing with the pope.
So... yeah, I think the HRE could really be said to be all those things, at least in its glory days.
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OT; is it possible to use the following level progrssion:
Race: Tiefling with 2nd level arcane SLA
1) Wizard
2) Cleric with Trickery
3) Evangelist
4) Mystic Theurge
5-13) Evangelist with MT as aligned class
That puts you 2 CL behind in both caster classes, instead of -1/-2, but you get medium BAB and 6+ skill points instead of slow BAB and 2+ skill points.
As for the CL behind - I'm in a party with somewhat less experienced players. Staying slightly behind could help me give them more spotlight because it means they always have a spell I don't yet have.
Lets look at this from the POV of a wizard or sorcerer:
Cost = 1 caster level. Capstone bloodline for sorcerer, capstone discovery for wizard.Gains = Better BAB. Better HD. Better skills. More class features.
Not a bad trade, all things considered,
Better question: are the evangelist abilities better than the capstone abilities? Are they worth permanently lowering your caster level by one for the rest of your career? Are they worth the 9th level spell slot you would have earned at 20th level?
Honestly? The class is balanced because its class features are pretty underwhelming. The Evangelist capstone is a limited use ability boost with a travel form attached. You get a smattering of extra languages, some skills, and your Divine Obedience boons early, which you would have gotten anyway if you're looking towards a final, 20th level build.
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Spellcasters aren't the only classes that exist in the game.
Fighter. Removing the bonus feat can stop the normal feat from working if the bonus feat is a prerequisite.
Other classes that get bonus feat: same.
True, true. But losing a few feats isn't inherently that complicated either.
And then you have the bonus spell you learn as you advance in level. If you take 5 levels as a wizard or witch, then 10 levels of Evangelist , then again some level as a wizard/witch you can chose 2 high level spells when you take your 2 free spells when you gain a level a level, but the 18 spells you gained as a evangelist are a class feature and they should not work if your evangelist powers don't work.
It is strange and probably a not foreseen secondary effect, but you will lose access to some spell that are in your spellbook.That can be a bit of a mess for a spontaneous spellcaster too. You will have 6+level as a bard, 10 not working levels as an evangelist, but the spell know of a 5th level bard plus what you learned as a level 15+ bard at level 16+.
This seems like a really overcomplicated way of looking at it. You lose X levels of class abilities. The highest X levels. That's actually pretty simple to work with.
The version you're arguing is technically RAW correct, but I'm not sure the simple version isn't, too, and well, simple. Why make things harder than they need to be?
And the cantrip in what book is printed? The player has access to it?
Inner Sea Gods. Y'know, the book the Obediences are in. Specifically, a Cleric or Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean can use Create Water to make alcohol. It's in the God's spell descriptions.
He has selected it as a know cantrip if he is a inquisitor or oracle?
Canonically, Oracles are out of luck...but what Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean isn't gonna take unlimited booze when it's offered? Especially if going with Deific Obedience.
What happen is he is not a divine spellcaster?
Then, he needs the Item. Or to carry booze. At a cup a day it'll last awhile as long as somebody's got Create Water for the desert scenario.
Same for the magic item.
True. But having some way around this should be pretty much a priority for anyone with one of the Prestige Classes that use them.
And still you have to sing your singing song for a full hour with a strong voice, capable to be heard by friend or foes.
Great for an infiltration mission or even the ears of the wizard that need to sleep to memorize his spells.
Oh, they're often inconvenient as hell, I'm arguing they're seldom impossible unless your gear is stolen, that's all.
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Celestial Obedience
Empyreal lords welcome prayers and tithes from all
mortals, but reserve their divine gifts for those willing to
sacrifice more. Such acts of sacrificial devotion are known
as obediences. An obedience is typically an hour-long ritual
that must be performed daily; unless otherwise stated, it
does not harm the creature performing it. Spellcasting
mystery cultists can integrate their obedience completely
with their normal hour-long rituals and methods of
preparing or regaining spells-others are free to perform
their obedience at any point during the day. Most choose
dawn as the time of obedience.
IIRC, the same applies to Demonic Obedience. Does it also apply to the Inner Sea Gods version?
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Interesting question, I will look into it as soon as I get home, especially the part about "normal hour-long rituals", as only spellcaster that memorize need to make "a hour long ritual", AFAIK spontaneous spellcaster have a shorter ritual.
Divine spellcaster should prepare spell at a specific time of the day. It is true for the obedience too?
Desna obedience should be done under the stars, my magus follower of Desna that would like to take this PrC need 8 hours of rest to memorize his spells. Unless he go to bed and wake very early I don't see a way to do that.
Ever since we were given hit point retraining, the lower hit point value for some classes is really a non-issue.
Obedience potentially causing you to lose your class abilities is a limitation to be sure, but not a more inconvenient one than having to prepare/pray for your spells each day. I haven't seen the list yet (waiting for my book in the mail), but from what I've heard, anything preventing you from performing an obedience would likely also prevent you from preparing spells--and would leave you about as crippled for the day.
I've not seen that situation arise very often (perhaps once ever three full campaigns, and only in the short term).
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Ever since we were given hit point retraining, the lower hit point value for some classes is really a non-issue.
First, a lot of GMs disallow that.
Second, if everyone has maxed HP, the difference between HD actually doubles, from 1 hp average per HD size, to two. An 11th level Wizard using PFS standard HP has 46 HP plus Con, while a Barbarian has 82, for a 36 HP difference. If HD are maxed, those become 66 and 132, respectively, for 66 HP different, and almost double the gap.
Obedience potentially causing you to lose your class abilities is a limitation to be sure, but not a more inconvenient one than having to prepare/pray for your spells each day. I haven't seen the list yet (waiting for my book in the mail), but from what I've heard, anything preventing you from performing an obedience would likely also prevent you from preparing spells--and would leave you about as crippled for the day.
I've not seen that situation arise very often (perhaps once ever three full campaigns, and only in the short term).
This is mostly true (some of them are a bit trickier than that, though not to the point where they're unworkable...except maybe Pharasma's), and is why I left it out entirely on both my first post and my randomly chosen example characters, both of which are, IMO, better arguments why Evangelist is not a must-have for everybody than the Obedience thing.
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It's still a bad move to go and destroy the spellbooks of a character. If you are making the argument that they are as inimical to the class as a paladin's code is to that class, I think the direct comparison of a GM going specifically after the paladin to make him fall can and should be made. And the latter definitely is frowned upon in most circles.
You see the GM as your enemy. At that point there is very little I can say to change your position. Try changing your GM.
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And the cantrip in what book is printed? The player has access to it?Inner Sea Gods. Y'know, the book the Obediences are in. Specifically, a Cleric or Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean can use Create Water to make alcohol. It's in the God's spell descriptions.
You mean Enhance Water?
It is Bard 1, Cleric !, Paladin 1So no inquisitor a a 1st level spell.
Ever since we were given hit point retraining, the lower hit point value for some classes is really a non-issue.First, a lot of GMs disallow that.
Just as I'm sure a lot of GMs disallow the prestige class. What of it? That doesn't change the mechanics, or that they are unbalanced. It only means some GMs have put "patches" on their games. That doesn't fix the overall problem.
Second, if everyone has maxed HP, the difference between HD actually doubles, from 1 hp average per HD size, to two. An 11th level Wizard using PFS standard HP has 46 HP plus Con, while a Barbarian has 82, for a 36 HP difference. If HD are maxed, those become 66 and 132, respectively, for 66 HP different, and almost double the gap.
Which is a completely moot point, since you are competing with monsters and not your peers. If you have enough hit points to not die in a typical monster encounter, that's all that really matters.
This is mostly true (some of them are a bit trickier than that, though not to the point where they're unworkable...except maybe Pharasma's)...
Thank you for the clarification. I may well change my thoughts on this point once I see the obediences for myself.
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Going back to the original topic:
My opinion on this prestige class is that it can definitely be pretty powerful, but it has relatively steep requirements and you lose one level of the previous class which can limit you pretty severely in some situations. A Rogue isn't hurt a lot by losing a single level, but a caster is. A martial character loses both a level of class abilities and some BAB.
In addition, you've got these obediences you have to do every day, which force role-play (which is GOOD) but can be difficult in some games.
I think overall, perhaps the writer went a BIT overboard with power level, but it's not incredibly overpowered. I think if every third level didn't count toward your previous class it might be more reasonable.
Consequently, a friend is starting a new game this Thursday, and I'm going to play a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer who will eventually go into the Razmiran Priest Prestige class for one level and then go Evangelist right away, netting the abilities of both Prestige classes in 11 total levels. It'll be pretty sick. :)
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Just as I'm sure a lot of GMs disallow the prestige class. What of it? That doesn't change the mechanics, or that they are unbalanced. It only means some GMs have put "patches" on their games. That doesn't fix the overall problem.
To quote:
The downtime system is designed to put much of the power and decision making for non-adventuring tasks in the hands of the players. These rules assume the reader is a player making decisions about what his character does during downtime. However, the GM is still in charge of the campaign and the final judge of what is possible using this system; these rules simply take much of the burden away from busy GMs, allowing them more time to work on creating adventures and other campaign issues.
That there is a bit more explicitly making the rules optional than a general Rule 0 citation. Not using (or being allowed to use) the downtime rules at all is perfectly valid, even by the downtime rules, and pretty common to boot.
Which is a completely moot point, since you are competing with monsters and not your peers. If you have enough hit points to not die in a typical monster encounter, that's all that really matters.
If everyone has more HP, the GM will generally up the damage one way or another. and might easily see no reason not to do the same with monsters. So yes, the fact that the difference actually widens matters. Heck, even in an unmodified AP, there's no such thing as 'enough' HP. More is always better, and 3 or 5 a level is a whole lot after a few levels.
Thank you for the clarification. I may well change my thoughts on this point once I see the obediences for myself.
Most are, as stated, not unworkable at all...but almost all are inconvenient in some way (requiring particular materials, shouting at the top of one's lungs, singing loudly, and so on).
And you're quite welcome.
If everyone has more HP, the GM will generally up the damage one way or another. and might easily see no reason not to do the same with monsters. So yes, the fact that the difference actually widens matters. Heck, even in an unmodified AP, there's no such thing as 'enough' HP. More is always better, and 3 or 5 a level is a whole lot after a few levels.
I really don't believe that. A GM who allows hit point retraining, but then increases the encounter challenges as a result is defeating the whole point of hit point retraining and should have just disallowed it to begin with. I prefer to believe that most GMs are smarter than that (and not a bunch of jerks misleading their players into thinking they are paying for a benefit, but actually getting nothing).
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Consequently, a friend is starting a new game this Thursday, and I'm going to play a Razmiran Priest Sorcerer who will eventually go into the Razmiran Priest Prestige class for one level and then go Evangelist right away, netting the abilities of both Prestige classes in 11 total levels. It'll be pretty sick. :)
Does Razmir even have Obediences/boons? It seems super odd to be able to take a religious prestige class that grants divine abilities when you are worshipping a false god. Not sure I'd allow that combo but if your GM is fine with it have fun.
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If everyone has more HP, the GM will generally up the damage one way or another. and might easily see no reason not to do the same with monsters. So yes, the fact that the difference actually widens matters. Heck, even in an unmodified AP, there's no such thing as 'enough' HP. More is always better, and 3 or 5 a level is a whole lot after a few levels.I really don't believe that. A GM who allows hit point retraining, but then increases the encounter challenges as a result is defeating the whole point of hit point retraining and should have just disallowed it to begin with. I prefer to believe that most GMs are smarter than that (and not a bunch of jerks misleading their players into thinking they are paying for a benefit, but actually getting nothing).
It isn't necessarily something done specifically or even consciously. A lot of GMs adjust encounters up and down based on how challenging past encounters have been. Adding more hit points can increase the baseline survivability of the party, so the GM could reasonably come to the conclusion that the party can handle more than it used to be able to, so let's throw another couple of orcs on the fire.
Essentially, anything that makes the party stronger can indirectly make their opponents stronger. For that reason, I tend to be unsympathetic to arguments about brokenness and party-vs.-monster balance. It's also why I don't mind allowing a lot of house-ruled stuff that other GMs might cringe at--it's no skin off my back so long as each player feels she is contributing to the game.
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Stop with the generalities. Show me a single 11th or 15th level character that is significantly and clearly better than its counterpart.
Kensai Evangalist of Nethys
11th level Kensai
BAB 8 Saves 7 3 7
5th level Kensai / 6th level Evangelist
BAB 7 Saves 6 4 6
Loses a bonus feat, spell recall, 1 3rd level and 1 4th level spell, six levels of FCB
Gains 24 skill points, 6 class skills (4 from class, plus two of choice), +1 dodge to AC, a language, +4 to untrained skills, mage armour and arcane eye three times a day each at CL 11.
Next level is another +1 to AC.
If you use an Aasimar with daylight SLA, you're instead looking at
3rd level Kensai / 8th level Evangelist
BAB 8 Saves 5 5 5
Loses a bonus feat, spell recall, 1 3rd level and 1 4th level spell, eight levels of FCB
Gains 32 skill points, 6 class skills, +2 dodge to AC, two languages, +4 untrained skills, mage armour and arcane eye three times a day each at CL 11.
Next level is what amounts to lesser globe of invulnerability at will for 4 rounds a day. Still behind a couple of spells, but now have that bonus feat and spell recall.
At level 12, I'd certainly give up a point of BAB, live with more balanced saves, and give up an arcana for the skills, the massive AC boost (+2 dodge, +4 armor), and lesser globe of invulnerability when I really need it.
OT; is it possible to use the following level progrssion:
Race: Tiefling with 2nd level arcane SLA
1) Wizard
2) Cleric with Trickery
3) Evangelist
4) Mystic Theurge
5-13) Evangelist with MT as aligned class
MT as aligned class is fine, imo, but you can't get Evangelist at 3rd even if you meet the casting requirement via SLA, because Deific Obedience requires 3 ranks in Know (religion), and while you can take a feat before the class at a given level, you can't get the skill points to qualify for the feat until you choose the class.
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Stop with the generalities. Show me a single 11th or 15th level character that is significantly and clearly better than its counterpart.Kensai Evangalist of Nethys
11th level Kensai
BAB 8 Saves 7 3 7
5th level Kensai / 6th level Evangelist
BAB 7 Saves 6 4 6
Loses a bonus feat, spell recall, 1 3rd level and 1 4th level spell, six levels of FCB
Gains 24 skill points, 6 class skills (4 from class, plus two of choice), +1 dodge to AC, a language, +4 to untrained skills, mage armour and arcane eye three times a day each at CL 11.
Next level is another +1 to AC.If you use an Aasimar with daylight SLA, you're instead looking at
3rd level Kensai / 8th level Evangelist
BAB 8 Saves 5 5 5
Loses a bonus feat, spell recall, 1 3rd level and 1 4th level spell, eight levels of FCB
Gains 32 skill points, 6 class skills, +2 dodge to AC, two languages, +4 untrained skills, mage armour and arcane eye three times a day each at CL 11.
Next level is what amounts to lesser globe of invulnerability at will for 4 rounds a day. Still behind a couple of spells, but now have that bonus feat and spell recall.At level 12, I'd certainly give up a point of BAB, live with more balanced saves, and give up an arcana for the skills, the massive AC boost (+2 dodge, +4 armor), and lesser globe of invulnerability when I really need
First, thanks for an actual example.
I'm sorry, but I have to move the goalposts a little. As I said way up thread, I'm thinking primarily of PFS and they've disallowed early entry. So I'm assuming entry no earlier than 6th level.
I agree that I'd strongly consider that trade off. But I'd waffle. I'm losing a fair bit (don't forget the actual deific obedience feat itself). The class skills and skill pts are nice but maguses aren't really skill starved. The bonus to untrained skills isn't that great at that level, especially with all the class skills and skill pts.
If the character was already a devout worshipper of Nethys I might well take it. But I certainly would NOT make a character a devout follower just to get the mechanical benefits.
I don't see the advantage as being really significant. I would NOT expect all power gamers to automatically take it.
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This thread has actually convinced me that it's not as awesome as I had been thinking in general. But I'm actually considering that magus as a new character for myself. A Kensai with Mage Armour seems quite fun to me.
And what's this about Society disallowing early entry? I hadn't heard anything like that. If it's true, one of my characters is going to be getting retired because I was already unhappy that he's going to be mostly wasting his Varisian Tattoo because of the way Magical Knack works. (Aasimar Mysterious Stranger 1 / Tattooed Sorcerer 1 / EK 10)
And what's this about Society disallowing early entry? I hadn't heard anything like that. If it's true, one of my characters is going to be getting retired because I was already unhappy that he's going to be mostly wasting his Varisian Tattoo because of the way Magical Knack works. (Aasimar Mysterious Stranger 1 / Tattooed Sorcerer 1 / EK 10)
The additional resources since it came out has had a little not saying can't enter before sixth. I think its been there since it came out anyway.
Oh. I think I found the note; it's specifically preventing early entry into Evangelist. I can't find any other notes preventing early entry into any other prestige class.
It does reduce the value of my Kensai Evangelist for society as it prevents getting the final boon at level 12, but at least my EK is valid.
It is a very, very good prestige class for a primary caster who's looking to do a bit of skillmonkey work on the side. Witches and Wizards especially will have a much easier time filling the "scoundrel" role if they go into Evangelist - it adds some very useful class skills (including Perception and 2 free picks), gives them an extra 4 skill ranks/level, a better hit die, medium BAB progression, and they gain some decent features from Deific Obedience and the Evangelist levels.
In turn they lose a feat, a caster level and the will save progression is exchanged with the reflex save progression. The downsides are painful, but I think it's generally a good tradeoff.
That said, I don't really think it's overpowered. I think the Aligned Class feature is an interesting addition and I hope to see something similar in other prestige classes in the future.
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MT as aligned class is fine, imo, but you can't get Evangelist at 3rd even if you meet the casting requirement via SLA, because Deific Obedience requires 3 ranks in Know (religion), and while you can take a feat before the class at a given level, you can't get the skill points to qualify for the feat until you choose the class.OT; is it possible to use the following level progrssion:
Race: Tiefling with 2nd level arcane SLA
1) Wizard
2) Cleric with Trickery
3) Evangelist
4) Mystic Theurge
5-13) Evangelist with MT as aligned class
Thanks :)
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Yeah, I think it's really nice for wizards or clerics, because you can afford to pay the caster level tax. For a wizard, you become a little more buff and get more skill points than you need, but also the very useful Perception class skill and a few other nice ones. For clerics, you stop being horrifically skill-starved.
For clerics, you stop being horrifically skill-starved.
I loathe the fact that clerics only get two skill ranks per level. It's frequently really, really hard to build a basic 1st level cleric who covers the skills expected from a representative of his deity.
As an example, I would expect a cleric of Erastil to have Handle Animal, Kn: Religion, Kn: Nature, and Survival at a minimum.