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Firstly,
There are posters here from all round the world. Different countries, different cultures, different laws re alcohol, different alcohol, different drinking cultures.Don't assume that if you normally expect people to drink moderately and sensibly, that means other people, possibly from a completely different part of the world, can do the same.
^^ This.
Secondly, there are posters here with different preferences. Each of us gets to decide those for ourselves. If I don't want to play with someone that's drunk, min-maxing, or even just because they're wearing a bright yellow shirt that is giving me a headache, that's my choice to make. If it's going to ruin my enjoyment of the game, however petty, trivial, or irrational that reason may appear, it's obviously not that petty to me. All it's going to do is reduce my pool of available players, and that's both my problem and my decision to make.
Secondly, there are posters here with different preferences. Each of us gets to decide those for ourselves. If I don't want to play with someone that's drunk, min-maxing, or even just because they're wearing a bright yellow shirt that is giving me a headache, that's my choice to make. If it's going to ruin my enjoyment of the game, however petty, trivial, or irrational that reason may appear, it's obviously not that petty to me. All it's going to do is reduce my pool of available players, and that's both my problem and my decision to make.
+1 this. Vitriol helps nothing.
As a quick aside to Hama (and please don't take this as condescending or anything like that), have you considered getting some counseling in regards to this issue? It's clear that you have some fairly strong emotions about it, and I know that I've seen you post similar things in other threads. Carrying baggage isn't the most bestest way to live your life. I know this from quite a bit of personal experience and training (I have a BS in psychology, and my childhood was....horrible is certainly the nicest way to describe it).
I'm definitely not trying to judge your decisions or say that you're wrong for thinking the way that you do, I just worry that you might be missing out on being around some people because they like to drink, even though they can behave responsibly with alcohol, even though it seems obvious that you spent some time around people who can't.
In other news, if you do intend to use some form of intoxication, remember that it affects those around you and that moderation can go a long way and that everyone has a different tolerance for themselves using, and others.
Also, whether I want you to share or not depends on what your sharing and how much and who's at the table. As a heads up, I'm easily bribed by both monster and strawberry cheesecake.
On more thing... My gosh... Thread boomed. I thought it would be the guy who doesn't wash more than anyone who do that. The scent of gaming convention is a nightmare.
I really didn't expect this to explode into a anti- vs. pro- drug and alcohol grudge match. Sorry for that result.
... I thought it would be the guy who doesn't wash more than anyone who do that. The scent of gaming convention is a nightmare.
I have been to 3 local conventions in the last several years. There was exactly one person that I noticed with the 'unwashed' B.O. present. He was asked (by several attendees) to leave. He got angry about it and complained to a convention official.
But the guy he was complaining to obviously couldn't take it either. (Was visibly covering his mouth and nose with his hand while the guy was ranting.) He then stormed out of the place. I didn't see him come back.
Other than that one incident, the conventions seem to have cleaned up a lot from what I remember 20+ years ago.
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As a quick aside to Hama (and please don't take this as condescending or anything like that), have you considered getting some counseling in regards to this issue? It's clear that you have some fairly strong emotions about it, and I know that I've seen you post similar things in other threads. Carrying baggage isn't the most bestest way to live your life. I know this from quite a bit of personal experience and training (I have a BS in psychology, and my childhood was....horrible is certainly the nicest way to describe it).
Had therapy. Helped with me not hating my father any more, now I just pity him, although I will never speak to him again, or go to his funeral.
As for alcohol, yeah, I don't hate drunk people, I just find them disgusting and pathetic and choose to remove myself from their presence.
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I really didn't expect this to explode into a anti- vs. pro- drug and alcohol grudge match. Sorry for that result.
Not your fault; it's been a frequent merry-go-round.
I'd much prefer to discuss the original idea, of 'players who drive the GM and fellow players crazy', rather than hear yet another instalment in the never-ending saga of guilt-tripping Hama, because he isn't keen on letting a gang of moonshine-sodden wankers trash his home.
I'd much prefer to discuss the original idea, of 'players who drive the GM and fellow players crazy', rather than hear yet another instalment in the never-ending saga of guilt-tripping Hama, because he isn't keen on letting a gang of moonshine-sodden wankers trash his home.
Quite. This thread seemed intended for ranting about the sort of players we don't enjoy playing with (which is usually an impersonal general "I don't like..." thing for blowing off steam), rather than for criticizing each other's rants (which tends to end up aimed at a particular poster and just causes more build-up of said steam.)
In Sweden, we have this little concept of binge-drinking. Whether it's beer, wine or hard liquor, our alcohol culture says basically: Drink until you can't drink any more. It is NOT the case that most who use more than a glass of wine at a restaurant will drink responsibly. They "ground" with a number of beer at a pre-party, then at the main event they are already obnoxious and loud, and it doesn't take long for them to get aggressive. Falling over, vomiting, fights, emotional outbursts and other "hilarity" ensues. The total alcohol consumed in a night can be truly staggering. Now, this is the cultural pattern of drinking. It means that unless you know the people involved very well and work for no alcohol, the above will happen at EVERY SINGLE event where people are going to have fun if they are above fifteen. Work parties, conferences, everything. In recent years, it has been easier to get respect for a no alcohol policy, but if you don't say it very clearly from the start, see above. What has also been happening is that there are more other drugs involved.
Given the two possible options, I know which one I choose.
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... binge-drinking. Whether it's beer, wine or hard liquor, our alcohol culture says basically: Drink until you can't drink any more. It is NOT the case that most who use more than a glass of wine at a restaurant will drink responsibly. They "ground" with a number of beer at a pre-party, then at the main event they are already obnoxious and loud, and it doesn't take long for them to get aggressive. Falling over, vomiting, fights, emotional outbursts and other "hilarity" ensues. ....
I have to say. I've never really understood why so many people think this in an enjoyable thing to do?!?
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I am sorry for liking whiskey so much :(
... binge-drinking. Whether it's beer, wine or hard liquor, our alcohol culture says basically: Drink until you can't drink any more. It is NOT the case that most who use more than a glass of wine at a restaurant will drink responsibly. They "ground" with a number of beer at a pre-party, then at the main event they are already obnoxious and loud, and it doesn't take long for them to get aggressive. Falling over, vomiting, fights, emotional outbursts and other "hilarity" ensues. ....I have to say. I've never really understood why so many people think this in an enjoyable thing to do?!?
Me neither. I guess it's a part of the adult role in Sweden. These people all seriously expect others to forgive and forget when they have made asses of themselves because "Hey man, I was soooo hammered."
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First off, there's some serious emotional issues attached to alcohol/substance use in this thread. People who choose to get drunk or high are not "disgusting," "pathetic" or any other negative word. They are simply making different choices than people who choose not to imbibe. It doesn't change the type of person they are. Some of the nicest people I know use different substances. Some of the biggest jerks I know are straightedge.
That being said, I've had some of the best gaming moments in my career when the table was drunk or otherwise intoxicated. Not everyone is a sloppy angry bastard when they choose to drink. Don't even get me started on why i'd rather play with someone who is stoned than most sober people... It's all really a matter of personal choice. You shouldn't judge someone or shun someone based on how they choose to live. It ends up stifling your own life and making you look like a jerk.
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I don't allow alcohol in my house, so its really easy to not allow it at the gaming table, especially since I'm hosting it. I don't think its too much to ask. If you NEED to have alcohol to have an enjoyable time, then perhaps the problem lies not with me...
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I don't allow alcohol in my house, so its really easy to not allow it at the gaming table, especially since I'm hosting it. I don't think its too much to ask. If you NEED to have alcohol to have an enjoyable time, then perhaps the problem lies not with me...
No the problem lies with you! (Just kidding) I don't think it's that people have a need to drink, just that they don't like getting lumped in with the people that have obviously turned others off of drinking. No one likes a holier than thou attitude. People like "I don't care if you don't like my holier than thou attitude" attitude even less.
I don't allow alcohol in my house, so its really easy to not allow it at the gaming table, especially since I'm hosting it. I don't think its too much to ask. If you NEED to have alcohol to have an enjoyable time, then perhaps the problem lies not with me...No the problem lies with you! (Just kidding) I don't think it's that people have a need to drink, just that they don't like getting lumped in with the people that have obviously turned others off of drinking. No one likes a holier than thou attitude. People like "I don't care if you don't like my holier than thou attitude" attitude even less.
I look at it this way: What you do on your own time is your business. If what you are doing affects me, then we have a problem, hence the no alcohol in the house rule. Also, if what you are doing gets you in trouble, I'll help you if you ask, but I will be laughing at you while I do it.
It means that unless you know the people involved very well and work for no alcohol, the above will happen at EVERY SINGLE event where people are going to have fun if they are above fifteen.
Obviously you're talking about your personal experience, but I feel like you still need more qualifiers to make such a statement. This is the kind of thinking that encourages stereotyping, groupthink, and discourages communication.
If one or more of the group members asks for a non-alcohol group, then the group members should all have a say. Whatever the final result is, the players can then decide if they can live with that result. If not, they find a different group.
Beyond that, making assumptions about people you don't know is vapid.
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I look at it this way: What you do on your own time is your business. If what you are doing affects me, then we have a problem, hence the no alcohol in the house rule. Also, if what you are doing gets you in trouble, I'll help you if you ask, but I will be laughing at you while I do it.I don't allow alcohol in my house, so its really easy to not allow it at the gaming table, especially since I'm hosting it. I don't think its too much to ask. If you NEED to have alcohol to have an enjoyable time, then perhaps the problem lies not with me...No the problem lies with you! (Just kidding) I don't think it's that people have a need to drink, just that they don't like getting lumped in with the people that have obviously turned others off of drinking. No one likes a holier than thou attitude. People like "I don't care if you don't like my holier than thou attitude" attitude even less.
What some people are trying to say is they can enjoy a few drinks without it affecting anyone. The teetotalers seem to have this idea that anyone touching the stuff is instantly violent or passing out. Some people do not like being cast in that light. So, if you say "I don't want alcohol at my house/game," that's fine. If you're saying, "I don't want alcohol at my house/game because everyone who touches that stuff is morally bankrupt/weak-willed/violent rapist," then you're being a jerk.
It doesn't change the type of person they are.Sorry, this isn't true. As soon as it becomes an addiction, it will change the type of person you are.
But not everyone becomes addicted.
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What some people are trying to say is they can enjoy a few drinks without it affecting anyone. The teetotalers seem to have this idea that anyone touching the stuff is instantly violent or passing out. Some people do not like being cast in that light. So, if you say "I don't want alcohol at my house/game," that's fine. If you're saying, "I don't want alcohol at my house/game because everyone who touches that stuff is morally bankrupt/weak-willed/violent rapist," then you're being a jerk.I look at it this way: What you do on your own time is your business. If what you are doing affects me, then we have a problem, hence the no alcohol in the house rule. Also, if what you are doing gets you in trouble, I'll help you if you ask, but I will be laughing at you while I do it.I don't allow alcohol in my house, so its really easy to not allow it at the gaming table, especially since I'm hosting it. I don't think its too much to ask. If you NEED to have alcohol to have an enjoyable time, then perhaps the problem lies not with me...No the problem lies with you! (Just kidding) I don't think it's that people have a need to drink, just that they don't like getting lumped in with the people that have obviously turned others off of drinking. No one likes a holier than thou attitude. People like "I don't care if you don't like my holier than thou attitude" attitude even less.
True that, but depending on a persons history (co-addiction, alcohol related abuse) I might be willing...not to quite to give it a pass, but to raise some sympathie.
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Problem is, Durngrun, that if you say is "I don't want alcohol at my table", then without a reason for that, you're criticized for drawing up arbitrary limits and being a jerk. If you motivate it with "because my experience tells me that there will be people who think they can control it but really can't", then you are apparently also being a jerk. Either way, the one not wanting alcohol at the table is a jerk, imagine that?
I just can't really get behind being intolerant of behavior that is harmless to oneself or pretending that that behavior is harmful to yourself.
It's that kind of mentality that fuels most of the intolerance moments around the world, and I will not be patting someone else on the back for taking the same kind of stance against the evils of alcohol.
Now someone mentioned drugs. That's ILLEGAL behavior. By virtue of it being against the law, that behavior is harmful to be around. To relate that to alcohol, I don't want to see anyone who is driving trying to drink. Cause that is how people get killed. I don't really care if you are "under the legal limit", and neither do the people you are more likely to run over from a light buzz. Even being under the legal limit greatly decreases motor skills for most individuals. It's why I see the legal limit as more of a way to handle trace amounts of alcohol in the system after a good nights rest.
So yeah, I can see not allowing alcohol at my house, if everyone is driving, but I probably don't want to hang out with people that I have to tell not to commit attempted murder.
But not everyone becomes addicted.It doesn't change the type of person they are.Sorry, this isn't true. As soon as it becomes an addiction, it will change the type of person you are.
It certainly doesn't take addiction to change someone. All it takes is getting drunk.
What some people are trying to say is they can enjoy a few drinks without it affecting anyone. The teetotalers seem to have this idea that anyone touching the stuff is instantly violent or passing out. Some people do not like being cast in that light. So, if you say "I don't want alcohol at my house/game," that's fine. If you're saying, "I don't want alcohol at my house/game because everyone who touches that stuff is morally bankrupt/weak-willed/violent rapist," then you're being a jerk.
Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential. A blanket statement about non-drinkers is no more helpful than the one about drinkers. If you're saying, "I should be able to do what I want despite how it may affect other people," then that's being a jerk as well. When you are in a group, what you do does affect other people.
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Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.
See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.
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Problem is, Durngrun, that if you say is "I don't want alcohol at my table", then without a reason for that, you're criticized for drawing up arbitrary limits and being a jerk. If you motivate it with "because my experience tells me that there will be people who think they can control it but really can't", which is apparently also being a jerk. Either way, the one not wanting alcohol at the table is a jerk, imagine that?
Or don't play with children.
You could say "no alcohol, I don't like it, I don't want it at my games."You don't have to say, "no alcohol, no one ever in the history of the world has ever been able to control themselves around the slightest hint of alcohol!" Do you see the difference?
Or again, don't play with children. We occasionally have alcohol (one of our players is a beer rep.) but when we were younger, there was one player who would drink and then fall asleep (wasn't passed out, we just gamed late and usually after work and a couple of beers made him sleepy) so he didn't drink. Because his drinking disrupted the game. When our GM quit smoking, nobody smoked during the game so he wouldn't be tempted. Never did we pass sweeping bans because of something other people did.
It certainly doesn't take addiction to change someone. All it takes is getting drunk.But not everyone becomes addicted.It doesn't change the type of person they are.Sorry, this isn't true. As soon as it becomes an addiction, it will change the type of person you are.
But not everyone drinks until they are drunk.
What a relief I am not saying that then. I am saying "Enough people can't control it that allowing it isn't worth the risks involved."
Who mentioned playing with children? Are you calling me, or my players, children? Just asking.
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Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.
That is a pretty weak argument. Asking someone not to drink while he is at your house is pretty different from asking someone not to be gay, or change his etnicity to smurf for a while...
I feel little sympathy for Hama's point of view when he throws around assessments like finding people who drink pathetic and disgusting. Perhaps people who can't use alcohol without ruining their family are pathetic and disgusting to others.
I learned to play DnD in the barracks, so there was frequent drinking. I currently play PF online, so some of us drink and others don't. I would have zero problem with a host who didn't want alcohol at the game session. No one else gets to make that call though, unless the group does as a whole.
As far as 'controlling' other people's behavior, I have at various times told people that if they were going to surf the net and watch movies instead of pay attention to the game, they could hit the bricks. I don't think it is overly controlling of a DM to insist that the game is the focus for attention when the game is being played. I'm not waiting ten minutes for you to declare a move while you watch Chronicles of Riddick. These people in real life would be the ones trying to watch TV in between their turn, or talking loudly with others after they roll dice. Call me crazy, but, and this goes whether I'm DM or not, if someone has put their effort throughout the week into the game session, the least you can do is give your attention throughout the session.
But not everyone drinks until they are drunk.It certainly doesn't take addiction to change someone. All it takes is getting drunk.But not everyone becomes addicted.It doesn't change the type of person they are.Sorry, this isn't true. As soon as it becomes an addiction, it will change the type of person you are.
Not every drunk is awful to be around...
Because you know, some people don't suck when their inhibitions and motor skills diminish.
But not everyone drinks until they are drunk.It certainly doesn't take addiction to change someone. All it takes is getting drunk.But not everyone becomes addicted.It doesn't change the type of person they are.Sorry, this isn't true. As soon as it becomes an addiction, it will change the type of person you are.
What I do know, however, is that EVERYONE who wants to drink says they can handle it responsibly. Without fail. It's like hunters. They always claim that "I never fire unless I am absolutely certain to make a quick kill." And yet, oddly, every year there are countless wounding shots. Funny how that adds up, you know?
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Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.
Why do I need to replace drinking with either of those two things? They are mutually exclusive. Drinking is an activity that can have detrimental side effects, and can be disruptive. Being a minority or a homosexual are part of what make people what they are. Your argument is spurious.
Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential. A blanket statement about non-drinkers is no more helpful than the one about drinkers. If you're saying, "I should be able to do what I want despite how it may affect other people," then that's being a jerk as well. When you are in a group, what you do does affect other people.
What some people are trying to say is they can enjoy a few drinks without it affecting anyone. The teetotalers seem to have this idea that anyone touching the stuff is instantly violent or passing out. Some people do not like being cast in that light. So, if you say "I don't want alcohol at my house/game," that's fine. If you're saying, "I don't want alcohol at my house/game because everyone who touches that stuff is morally bankrupt/weak-willed/violent rapist," then you're being a jerk.
I'm not making a blanket statement about non -drinkers, I was referring to some people posting in this thread. Nor have I said "I should be able to do what I want despite how it may affect other people." If you want to ban alcohol at your house because you don't like alcohol, that is fine. If you want to ban alcohol because you are making some judgement about me, then you are being a jerk.
I'm sure there are exceptions, even within her culture, but apparently the assumption that most people will drink responsibly is not a safe one there.
Right, this is one person's point of view about an entire culture. You don't find a person making a statement about an entire culture disconcerting?
The assumption that most people will drink irresponsibly is not a safe one anywhere.
I'm sure there are exceptions, even within her culture, but apparently the assumption that most people will drink responsibly is not a safe one there.Right, this is one person's point of view about an entire culture. You don't find a person making a statement about an entire culture disconcerting?
The assumption that most people will drink irresponsibly is not a safe one anywhere.
All I am saying is "Enough people don't drink responsibly that I choose not to take the risk". And as for understanding your own culture, are there no statements you could make about your culture, Tormsskull?
That is a pretty weak argument. Asking someone not to drink while he is at your house is pretty different from asking someone not to be gay, or change his ethnicity to smurf for a while...Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.
Oh but you could ban homosexual propaganda and behavior like Russia. You can also tell minorities to keep their culture outside of your house and to dress "normal".
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That is a pretty weak argument. Asking someone not to drink while he is at your house is pretty different from asking someone not to be gay, or change his ethnicity to smurf for a while...Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.Oh but you could ban homosexual propaganda and behavior like Russia. You can also tell minorities to keep their culture outside of your house and to dress "normal".
Do you really think, this is anywhere close?
Why do I need to replace drinking with either of those two things? They are mutually exclusive. Drinking is an activity that can have detrimental side effects, and can be disruptive. Being a minority or a homosexual are part of what make people what they are. Your argument is spurious.Drinking at my house or at my game DOES affect me, or at the very least has the potential.See it's that last part that bothers me. Replace "drinking" with "homosexuality" or "minorities" and you will understand the problem I have with your argument form.
So whether or not behavior is OK depends on whether or not you feel that behavior is core to who they are as a person?
Yeah that could never lead to intolerant thinking...
Problem is, Durngrun, that if you say is "I don't want alcohol at my table", then without a reason for that, you're criticized for drawing up arbitrary limits and being a jerk. If you motivate it with "because my experience tells me that there will be people who think they can control it but really can't", then you are apparently also being a jerk. Either way, the one not wanting alcohol at the table is a jerk, imagine that?
No reason you can't have two jerks arguing with each other about whether or not to allow alcohol at a shared play area. While I don't subscribe to Hama's standards, he's perfectly free to have them.
All I am saying is "Enough people don't drink responsibly that I choose not to take the risk".
That is a far more reasonable statement that I have no issues with.
And as for understanding your own culture, are there no statements you could make about your culture, Tormsskull?
I don't really think in cultural terms, to be honest. Americans vary widely based on geographic, ethnic, religious, etc. differences. So saying things likes "Americans tend to be..." would be very uninformed and only said out of frustration.
I understand it is different in Europe as the culture in certain places there is much more homogeneous than here in the states, so that may be where the difference comes in.
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Problem is, Durngrun, that if you say is "I don't want alcohol at my table", then without a reason for that, you're criticized for drawing up arbitrary limits and being a jerk. If you motivate it with "because my experience tells me that there will be people who think they can control it but really can't", which is apparently also being a jerk. Either way, the one not wanting alcohol at the table is a jerk, imagine that?Or don't play with children.
You could say "no alcohol, I don't like it, I don't want it at my games."
You don't have to say, "no alcohol, no one ever in the history of the world has ever been able to control themselves around the slightest hint of alcohol!" Do you see the difference?
Or again, don't play with children. We occasionally have alcohol (one of our players is a beer rep.) but when we were younger, there was one player who would drink and then fall asleep (wasn't passed out, we just gamed late and usually after work and a couple of beers made him sleepy) so he didn't drink. Because his drinking disrupted the game. When our GM quit smoking, nobody smoked during the game so he wouldn't be tempted. Never did we pass sweeping bans because of something other people did.The first is how this started. Then a bunch of people jumped down his throat about how the GM couldn't control the player's lives and he explained his reasoning and a few other people joined in.
Sissyl, who you're responding to, didn't say "no one ever in the history of the world", but described her local culture of alcohol use, which is different than the ones I'm familiar with.
If I had one problem player, whether it was falling asleep or getting obnoxiously drunk, I might ban it for everyone, especially if he didn't admit he had a particular problem with it. I'd certainly ban it if someone was in recovery or otherwise had alcohol problems.
All I'm saying is I don't want to be judged for someone else's actions. If you have a problem with my behavior, then discuss it with me. If Steve is a problem, discuss it with Steve.