Indeed.
When does a piercing/slashing/bludgeoning weapon, count as a piercing/slashing/bludgeoning weapon?
Is it only at the moment it is dealing said damage?
Very good question. I can understand how a 2 sided weapon can be either or, and i can also understand how a weapon can be (x) and (x) at same when dealing damage, but the weapons that arent 2 sided weapons that say they (x) OR (x) throw me off when the rules for magic get involved. I can understand how a dagger can be piercing or slashing in that u either stab (piercing) or u are slashing, its when the rules get involved for only 1 type of damage it does and the weapon isnt 2 sided meaning 2 different parts to enchant come together.
Also to clarify, in a homegame i run i would have no problem with vorpal goimg off if a weapon was slashing and/or bludgeoning and theyuse the bludgeoning i would simply describ the head of said npc being knotched off by the force. But me i would like to learn the rules first before i start homeruling things because i wanna know "why" i would houserule it in the first place. When i firat got started my friend who dms taught me alot only to find out most of what he taught me was houserules and i didnt understand why the change was brought about in the first place.
but like i said i would like to know the answer to this question simply for curiousity sake.
Especially the question that BBT brought up.
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Slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think its weird that Vorpal weapons only work on slashing weapons? Because I think if my magical dagger with a blade that is barely as long as my enemy's neck is thick can chop off his head with one chop if I'm lucky, then my Earthbreaker the size of his entire head could lop it off with one lucky blow to the side of the head.
Slightly off-topic, but does anyone else think its weird that Vorpal weapons only work on slashing weapons? Because I think if my magical dagger with a blade that is barely as long as my enemy's neck is thick can chop off his head with one chop if I'm lucky, then my Earthbreaker the size of his entire head could lop it off with one lucky blow to the side of the head.
Eh i always viewed vorpal weapons being able to cut anything no matter the size head off withvery powerful magic. Like a magical force or a magical shockwave or something, i mean its a +5 enchant lol.
As far as the earthbreaker u are correct if it was a medium or large npc, but think of that dagger cutting off a gargaunat npc head weilding by a halfling. Does the size of ur eathbreaker which would be like a toothpick really seem like it could knotch a head off on its own? Best way to explain why a small vorpal dagger (IF u can have a vorpal dagger) can cut off the head of a npc the size of a mountain is......very powerful magic :-)
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Now, think about a Transformative Vorpal Longsword, transformed into a Club, and using Weapon Versatility, to deal Slashing damage.
Knocks your head off to think about that?
That's really the question. Is it the damage that determines type or is it type that determines damager? Does to go both ways?
Does dealing one type of damage add that type to the weapon type? And if so does it stop being the other type? Is a dagger EVER not a slashing weapon? Is slashing weapon type the ability to do that kind of damage or is it the kind of damage it's currently doing?
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Well, if it's the damage it's dealing at the time, then a Transformative Vorpal Longsword, transformed into a Club, that is dealing slashing damage, should be able to take full advantage of the Vorpal enchantment.
So, as you put it, dealing slashing damage, makes it a slashing weapon.
This would mean a Monk, with a Vorpal Amulet of Mighty Fists, using Tiger Style, can literally rip a man's head off.
Well I know you can stab and cut someone with a staff now with the cool new damage change feat so why now chopping off heads with hands and clubs?
I had another thought. If damage dealt really does alter the weapon type, then all the enchantment restrictions are meaningless since any weapon can do any damage type. So you can vorpal a gauntlet as long as you do slashing damage with it.
Ok after some looking and tyvm bbt for bringing up transformative and keen weapon enchants.
lets see. Vorpal says that it can only be a slashing weapon. People are arguing that it only means it jas to be a slashing weapon to enchant.
now lets look at the keen weapon enchant. It says it can only be a piercing or slashing weapon. Same explanation as vorpal except u add piercing instead of slashing only.
now for the people who says its only about enchanting and once its enchanted it can be used whatever weapon type. To that i point u to the transformative enchant.
It states that a weapon retains its enchancements BUT uses an example of how keen doesnt work when u use a bludgeoning type damage. Keen AND vorpal have the exact same wording in that it can only be (x) type damage and transformative states that keen doesnt work on a damage that isnt piercing or slashing EVEN though its still enchanted with Keen.
so yes i believe if u can enchant a dagger with vorpal, vorpal doesnt work when u are doing piercing damage with the dagger even though it is enchanted with vorpal.
I had another thought. If damage dealt really does alter the weapon type, then all the enchantment restrictions are meaningless since any weapon can do any damage type. So you can vorpal a gauntlet as long as you do slashing damage with it.
I think to enchant something with an enchant that has prereqs of damage type has to be what the weapon can oringinally do. I dont we got an official response yet on using improvise weapons rules on existing weapons, if we have i missed it. So even of improvise weapons lets use use a weapon other than whats its used for, its not doing that type of damage until we useit that way. So in the grasp of someone whos enchanting it, it woukd be whats oringinally in the weapon descriptor.
A longsword laying on a table is just a slashing weapon. And i think thats what we would go by in enchanting them.
So Redneckdevil you agree then that I can have a keen, transformative club as long as I deal piercing or slashing damage with it since you are saying damage determines type?
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Vorpal could only function when doing slashing damage.
It's part of the confusion.
Now, if you are a Monk of the Empty Hand, you can make anything, from a Club, to a Boot, Vorpal.
Why? Magic!
Ha! My vengeance is RAW!
Vorpal could only function when doing slashing damage.
It's part of the confusion.
Now, if you are a Monk of the Empty Hand, you can make anything, from a Club, to a Boot, Vorpal.
Why? Magic!
Ha! My vengeance is RAW!
LOL You're thinking too small. With WEAPON VERSATILITY you can enchant any weapon and ignore all restrictions to weapon type. Vorpal, keen, disrupting gauntlets for eneryone!
Magic!
So Redneckdevil you agree then that I can have a keen, transformative club as long as I deal piercing or slashing damage with it since you are saying damage determines type?
Transformative doesnt let u do piercing and slashing damage when turned into a club.
"Except those that are prohibited by its current state". When u turned ur weapo into a club, it is no longer doing piercing or slashing damage but bludgeoning. Abilities are for ex. Trip, disarm, etc along with the abities from ur enchants. Weapon type damage is not an ability.if it was why did it call out a club not working at all with keen if the club could do piercing or slashing damage?
Redneckdevil and MattR1986. Look at the WEAPON VERSATILITY feat. Any weapon can deal any damage type. So a club can deal b, P or slashing. If damage causes type then any weapon is a valid target for vorpal.
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We are talking about this:
Weapon Versatility (Combat)
You can use your favored weapons in unconventional ways.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning,
piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by
that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon’s normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action. If your base attack bonus is +5 or higher, using this feat is a free action instead.
We are talking about this:
Weapon Versatility (Combat)
You can use your favored weapons in unconventional ways.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning,
piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by
that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon’s normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action. If your base attack bonus is +5 or higher, using this feat is a free action instead.
Gotcha tyvm for that.
And to that i still say when the enchant says "slashing weapon only" or "piercing or slashing weapon only" then its first enchanted on a weapon that mets those prereqs. If it is used as something other than slashing or piercing and slashing then it does not effect the weapon at that time.so a vorpal has to be a slashing weapon only to be enchanted first. If used as a pierfing or bludgeoning it does not effect that attack. To that i point to what i showed with keen and transformative.
Redneckdevil. If the creator has this feat, then it would meet the prereqs as to that person it's all types of weapon. This must be if damage causes type.
To say otherwise would mean that the later damage doesn't matter since it's JUST the starting damage that matters and it's cool to activate it with B damage.
Redneckdevil. If the creator has this feat, then it would meet the prereqs as to that person it's all types of weapon. This must be if damage causes type.
To say otherwise would mean that the later damage doesn't matter since it's JUST the starting damage that matters and it's cool to activate it with B damage.
The perwon with this feat only gains the benefits when they are weilding it meaning attacking with it or able to attack with it. (Thats gonna be a pandora box right there lol). When u are enchanting an item, u are not weilding or attacking with it, u are spending many hours enchanting it.
Transformative already shows that if a weapon thats pierce or slashing becomes a club (meaning does bludgeoning damage) it is still enchanted with keen, it just doesnt effect ur weqpon because ur not doing piercing or slashing damage. Its not taking into account for this feat that lets u do multiple types with weapons.like i said, a sword thats laying on the table or not being used in combat is slashing only. In combat with said feat, that sword can be used many different types. U are not enchanting in combat so that sword while enchanted is only slashing only.
that is an awesome feat btw.
Well, you can't prove that transformative is giving a rule and not an exception to the rule. You can only prove what you can do with that specific enchantment. SO lets set that aside.
To the first point, you can't have it both ways. You can't say damage dealt doesn't matter then turn around and say it does. If it doesn't matter then it limits what you can enchant and you can use whatever damage type you like to activate it. The other way you can enchant any weapon and you HAVE to deal that type of damage to activate . I don't really see how you can have it both ways.
On enchanting: That says you can't be wielding while enchanting? Does it require two hands? Not that I know. You can cast your spells and do your enchantment while holding that weapon.
Wielding: This can meaning everything from currently attacking with it to simple holding it. I wouldn't hinge any argument on being able to wield...
In all fairness of this debate i have shown and given an ingame text example that specifically calls out an enchantment that is a (x) type weapon only and that it wont work when dealing a different type of damage.
What example can u give that specifically states in saying u can have type enchantment still effect even though ur doing a different type damage when it says only (x)?
Very good example with duelist but so far yes from what i have seen, u do not get precision strike off if slashing when ur supposed to be piercing. Though i would like to point out that duelist merely states "piercing" weapon and is missing the keyword "only" thats found in vorpal and keen.
In all fairness of this debate i have shown and given an ingame text example that specifically calls out an enchantment that is a (x) type weapon only and that it wont work when dealing a different type of damage.
As I pointed out, is that quote of your exception or general rule? Without knowing that, it proves nothing so I count that as adding nothing to the proof area. If you want a rules quote from me, I'd point out the requirement itself. Vorpal states "A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon." and not 'you must deal slashing damage to activate this enchantment. The existence of the vorpal and the dagger is more compelling than the transformative. If damage makes type then a restriction on damage makes more sense.
Only isn't a keyword by the way. And Vorpal never says it. Keen says only however it says "Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen". Not 'only piercing and slashing damage is affected'.
To Ghostwasp: There are issues no matter which way it goes. A problem here is that I have people telling me that damage type controls what the weapon type is with one breath and turning around and telling me that it's the weapon type that sets the damage type. You can't do it both ways.
That and somehow a dagger is two weapons tied together and it stops being one or the other depending on what damage you do...
Redneckdevil. If the creator has this feat, then it would meet the prereqs as to that person it's all types of weapon. This must be if damage causes type.
My only 2cp comment in this race. I think the above statement is a false conclusion. Having a feat to use a weapon in a not-normal (base proficiency stats on the weapon chart)way would not allow a bypass to that restriction by my reading. You can use it in a new way but it doesn't change the fact that a Club is by default a bludgeoning weapon.
Can i enchant this club to be vorpal?
no, it's not a slashing weapon.
I have a feat that allows me to do slashing damage with a club, can i enchant it with vorpal?
no, it's still a bludgeoning weapon that you simply use a different way through a feat.
That's how i see it, having read the posts above.
Just sharing perspective, happy gaming!
Redneckdevil. If the creator has this feat, then it would meet the prereqs as to that person it's all types of weapon. This must be if damage causes type.My only 2cp comment in this race. I think the above statement is a false conclusion. Having a feat to use a weapon in a not-normal (base proficiency stats on the weapon chart)way would not allow a bypass to that restriction by my reading. You can use it in a new way but it doesn't change the fact that a Club is by default a bludgeoning weapon.
Can i enchant this club to be vorpal?
no, it's not a slashing weapon.I have a feat that allows me to do slashing damage with a club, can i enchant it with vorpal?
no, it's still a bludgeoning weapon that you simply use a different way through a feat.That's how i see it, having read the posts above.
Just sharing perspective, happy gaming!
I was taking Redneckdevil's argument that damage determines type to it's logical conclusion. Remember, he thinks a dagger stops being a slashing weapon if you deal piercing damage with it. For that to be true, using that feat MUST make a club into a slashing weapon if I choose to deal that damage with it.
Myself, I've already said that weapons should always retain their base weapon types. I'm not the one that brought up weapons magically losing or gaining weapon types. That'd be Redneckdevil.
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Just to throw out another problem with enchantments and weapon types, even ignoring, for now, Weapon Versatility.
Make a masterwork club +1. Legal.
Make that +1 club Transformative. Legal.
Now, can you use the Transformative property to make it a longsword, which is legal, so you can enchant it with keen or vorpal?
With Transformative, the original type of weapon no longer matters, other than its basic type, as in light, one handed, or two handed.
Redneckdevil. If the creator has this feat, then it would meet the prereqs as to that person it's all types of weapon. This must be if damage causes type.My only 2cp comment in this race. I think the above statement is a false conclusion. Having a feat to use a weapon in a not-normal (base proficiency stats on the weapon chart)way would not allow a bypass to that restriction by my reading. You can use it in a new way but it doesn't change the fact that a Club is by default a bludgeoning weapon.
Can i enchant this club to be vorpal?
no, it's not a slashing weapon.I have a feat that allows me to do slashing damage with a club, can i enchant it with vorpal?
no, it's still a bludgeoning weapon that you simply use a different way through a feat.That's how i see it, having read the posts above.
Just sharing perspective, happy gaming!
I was taking Redneckdevil's argument that damage determines type to it's logical conclusion. Remember, he thinks a dagger stops being a slashing weapon if you deal piercing damage with it. For that to be true, using that feat MUST make a club into a slashing weapon if I choose to deal that damage with it.
Myself, I've already said that weapons should always retain their base weapon types. I'm not the one that brought up weapons magically losing or gaining weapon types. That'd be Redneckdevil.
Actually i believe a dagger is a slashing OR a piercing weapon due to thats what it states in the equipment section. It has the oppertunity to do both types of damage but cannot do them at the same time hence the OR. I believe the damage type of a weapon is what is already on the weqpon for the sake of adding magical properties. I do not believe u can add vorpal to a dagger because it is not a slashing weapon only as it states in the description of the enchant AND on the table. I believe once u add vorpal to a longsword and have the feat to do other typew of weapon damage, the longsword is STILL a slashing weapon only, the feat allows YOU the ability to do different types of weapon damage. Reason for this thinking is take said person with feat and have them drop the sword and have it picked up by someone who doesnthave the feat, what is the weapons damage type then? Reason why vorpal and keen wont go off if used as something other than a slashing only or a piercing or keen only is again i point to transformative enchant. The reason why keen doesnt effect ur weapon rolls EVEN though it still has the enchant on it is because the club does bludgeoning damage and doesnt do piercing or slashing. So that shows right there that even if a weapon has the enchant on it, by dealing a different damage type it doesnt effect. That is not an exception because its not the enchant itself preventing it from going off, the actual weapon that has a weapon type thats different than what the enchant states. I will say that if someone has the feat, the keen enchant or vorpal will effect the club if they deal piercing or slashing damage.
So to enchant the weapon base properties itself and not what u can do with it determines if it qualifies for the feat. Reason is it states the enchant must be on a slashing weapon for example. The feat allows u to do different types of damage but the weapon is still a certain weapon type only.the enchantment to be in effect is determined by the type of weapon damage we do so that club that was transformative with keen, the keen enchantment doesnt effect it when we do bludgeoning damage but does effect it when we do piercing or slashing.
the weapon type damage is consistant in that if a vorpal is alshing only then it can only be enchanted with a weapon that does slashing on and effects attacks roll when we do slashing only.
Thats what i think is raw and hope that clears things up :-) and yes i do believe we need a faq because due to newer feats and abilities thisbisnt as clear as it was before abilities let u use a weapon a different way. So im not 100% sure on if im right or not but this has been a very nice and polite discussion/debate
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Well, how it can be used, has no bearing on how it can be enchanted.So, since the Weapon Versatility feat affects how a weapon can be used, the feat has no bearing on how the weapon can be enchanted then? ;)
Yes.
The way different people could wield/use a weapon has no bearing on how it can be enchanted.