Other than domain spells (Which include fireball!) what are some good candidates for level 2 or 3 spells to become dazing? The only spells I could find of significance seemed to be call lightning and aqueous orb. Unfortunately the orb doesn't work against DR I don't believe.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
In an aquatic campaign when you have a Shark Companion, you would have a shark with a frikken' laser beam on it's head.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
I removed my animal companion. We determined as a group it was stronger than having a barbarian at the table. It was pretty sad.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
I removed my animal companion. We determined as a group it was stronger than having a barbarian at the table. It was pretty sad.
Then either you or your barbarian friend made a significant mistake, barbarians are pretty hoss nowadays.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
I removed my animal companion. We determined as a group it was stronger than having a barbarian at the table. It was pretty sad.
Then either you or your barbarian friend made a significant mistake, barbarians are pretty hoss nowadays.
Lion AC has 5 attacks with something like +2d6+20 to each hit. The barbarian has a higher damage output per hit but the lion charging is just always doing more while having ac in the 30s, equal move speed, and better reviving of buffs (Animal growth vs enlarge) due to +2 damage being +10/+12 vs +6/+8. The only time the barbarian did more damage is when his weapon broke DR and the AC (With eldrich claws) didn't.
Spells though I wish I could afford a regular metamagic rod of dazing for ball lightnings, that spell is pretty silly. Although it's not the only one. Sirroco, and explosion of rot seem absurd if dazing spelled.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
I removed my animal companion. We determined as a group it was stronger than having a barbarian at the table. It was pretty sad.
Oh man... complete tangent, but let me tell you about my character. I'm playing an early entry Mystic Theurge (Cleric/wizard) focusing on buffs and utility rather than high DC spells. DM let me take a variation of Animal and Scalykind domains, both which grant an animal companion.
Rather than picking two crazy powerful dinosaur companions, or lions or what-not, I chose two "Cat, small". I suggested calling them "Dire housecats" (in name only) and DM is using the leopard stats (same stats as the small cat animal companion, but gets pounce and rake). I'm eventually going to get them both Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and cast permanency reduce person on them for them to be tiny size. (yeah, they eat an AoO on their way in, but with high dex and mobility, they have a good chance to miss)
For my wizard bonded item, I chose a cat familiar, because, yeah. Cat lady. Guy.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
I removed my animal companion. We determined as a group it was stronger than having a barbarian at the table. It was pretty sad.
Then either you or your barbarian friend made a significant mistake, barbarians are pretty hoss nowadays.
Lion AC has 5 attacks with something like +2d6+20 to each hit. The barbarian has a higher damage output per hit but the lion charging is just always doing more while having ac in the 30s, equal move speed, and better reviving of buffs (Animal growth vs enlarge) due to +2 damage being +10/+12 vs +6/+8. The only time the barbarian did more damage is when his weapon broke DR and the AC (With eldrich claws) didn't.
And for every time the cat attacks the barbarian he gets an attack of opportunity (Come and Get Me). Advantage: Barbarian.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
I removed my animal companion. We determined as a group it was stronger than having a barbarian at the table. It was pretty sad.
Then either you or your barbarian friend made a significant mistake, barbarians are pretty hoss nowadays.
Lion AC has 5 attacks with something like +2d6+20 to each hit. The barbarian has a higher damage output per hit but the lion charging is just always doing more while having ac in the 30s, equal move speed, and better reviving of buffs (Animal growth vs enlarge) due to +2 damage being +10/+12 vs +6/+8. The only time the barbarian did more damage is when his weapon broke DR and the AC (With eldrich claws) didn't.
And for every time the cat attacks the barbarian he gets an attack of opportunity (Come and Get Me). Advantage: Barbarian.
Levels 1-13 barbarian has the advantage over a single druid class feature for a whopping 2 levels.
Interesting thought: if you have an animal companion, you can cast Burning Gaze and other personal range spells on your little friend. Want a little cat/badger/bear/wolf/walrus with laser beam eyes? Sure!
I removed my animal companion. We determined as a group it was stronger than having a barbarian at the table. It was pretty sad.
Then either you or your barbarian friend made a significant mistake, barbarians are pretty hoss nowadays.
Lion AC has 5 attacks with something like +2d6+20 to each hit. The barbarian has a higher damage output per hit but the lion charging is just always doing more while having ac in the 30s, equal move speed, and better reviving of buffs (Animal growth vs enlarge) due to +2 damage being +10/+12 vs +6/+8. The only time the barbarian did more damage is when his weapon broke DR and the AC (With eldrich claws) didn't.
And for every time the cat attacks the barbarian he gets an attack of opportunity (Come and Get Me). Advantage: Barbarian.
Levels 1-13 barbarian has the advantage over a single druid class feature for a whopping 2 levels.
Um. . . No. A barbarian has the edge across the board, I was just bringing up the ability that puts the nail in the coffin. I guess I'm going to have to explain a bit more thoroughly.
1) The lion will not have 5 attacks until he hits 7th level and gains pounce when the claw attacks are doing somewhere around 1d6+6 with an attack bonus of +10. A barbarian at that level is going to have 2 attacks, somewhere around +17/+12 and hitting for 2d6 + 24. So the barbarian is both more accurate with his attacks and the sum damage from his attacks >>> the sum damage from the lion's attacks. When they both charge the lion may out damage the barbarian due to the barbarian being limited to 1 attack and the lion having 5, but that would be the only time and that is only until the barbarian gains pounce at 10.
2) You cannot honestly say that the animal companion is "better reviving (sic) of buffs" and then compare a level 1 spell that targets the barbarian to a level 5 spell that targets the animal companion.
3) The lion, at level 7, is going to have somewhere around a 17 armor class, not a 30. Regardless, a 17 may be better than the barbarian's AC (depending on campaign, magic item availability ,etc.) but the barbarian's saving throws >>> the lion's saving throws (thanks to superstition) and a 17 AC isn't stopping much damage at level 7 anyways. (It is stopping 15% of equal CR creatures attacks, and none of a CR + 2 creature's attacks.)
Um. . . No. A barbarian has the edge across the board, I was just bringing up the ability that puts the nail in the coffin. I guess I'm going to have to explain a bit more thoroughly.
1) The lion will not have 5 attacks until he hits 7th level and gains pounce when the claw attacks are doing somewhere around 1d6+6 with an attack bonus of +10. A barbarian at that level is going to have 2 attacks, somewhere around +17/+12 and hitting for 2d6 + 24. So the barbarian is both more accurate with his attacks and the sum damage from his attacks >>> the sum damage from the lion's attacks. When they both charge the lion may out damage the barbarian due to the barbarian being limited to 1 attack and the lion having 5, but that would be the only time and that is only until that would be the only time and that is only until the barbarian gains pounce at 10.
2) You cannot honestly say that the animal companion is "better reviving (sic) of buffs" and then compare a level 1 spell that targets the barbarian to a level 5 spell that targets the animal companion.
3) The lion, at level 7, is going to have somewhere around a 17 armor class, not a 30. Regardless, a 17 may be better than the barbarian's AC (depending on campaign, magic item availability ,etc.) but the barbarian's saving throws >>> the lion's saving throws (thanks to superstition) and a 17 AC isn't stopping much damage at level 7 anyways. (It is stopping 15% of equal CR creatures attacks, and none of a CR + 2 creature's attacks.)
Nah Animal companions are roughly equal to the barb until 12th or even better. The problem is that we're debating how much of a barbarian a single class feature is of the druid.
Spoiler:
1) The lion at level 7 will have BAB 4 +8 str (22 STR 13+1 4th +8 7th) -2 to hit +4 damage PA +1 to hit and damage AOMF or Vicious amulet of mighty fists. Barbarian hits for 2d6+24, heck I'll be generous 2d6+30. Damage on one claw assuming Light armor prof, power attack, improved natural attack claw. is 1d8 + 13 or 1d8 + 2d6 + 12. Additionally his AC will be at around 28-30. Assuming ~half of the lion attacks hit at 1d8 + 13 he does 3d8 + 39. This isn't
2) Bristle is a level one spell which significantly improves the AC to a degree which no level one spell can improve the barbarian. Even if a barb could cast RMight it's inferior to animal growth. A bard is better for the AC. A cleric is better for the AC. Any party buff except haste benefits the AC more.
3) You've never built an AC...
Light armor prof
10: Base
+5: +1 chainshirt
+4: 19 dex
+4: natural armor bonus
+3: Barkskin (Long duration buff, extended if need be)
AC 26 without really trying to boost it. If you wanted to spend actual money on your AC outside of the base couple thousand gold you can easily cheese him up. If you're like me and actually spend money on your AC outside of basic +1 weapon/armor it gets out of hand since you can function as a full summoner after the AC. So an animal companion, a single class feature, is being compared to the strengths and weaknesses of having an entire PLAYER at the table.
Nah Animal companions are roughly equal to the barb until 12th or even better. The problem is that we're debating how much of a barbarian a single class feature is of the druid.
Which, mind you, was your claim, that your animal companion was more powerful than the barbarian.
Quote:
1) The lion at level 7 will have BAB 4 +8 str (22 STR 13+1 4th +8 7th) -2 to hit +4 damage PA +1 to hit and damage AOMF or Vicious amulet of mighty fists. Barbarian hits for 2d6+24, heck I'll be generous 2d6+30. Damage on one claw assuming Light armor prof, power attack, improved natural attack claw. is 1d8 + 13 or 1d8 + 2d6 + 12. Additionally his AC will be at around 28-30. Assuming ~half of the lion attacks hit at 1d8 + 13 he does 3d8 + 39. This isn't
2) Bristle is a level one spell which significantly improves the AC to a degree which no level one spell can improve the barbarian. Even if a barb could cast RMight it's inferior to animal growth. A bard is better for the AC. A cleric is better for the AC. Any party buff except haste benefits the AC more.
1) Your animal companion's attack bonus is still around half what the barbarian is putting out, against equal or higher CR creatures it will struggle.
2) 3d8+39 (which is more than half the lion's attacks) is still less than the barbarian's 4d6 + 60.
3) You claimed that the animal companion was better than the barbarian, not that the druid's full allotment of spells + AC was better than the barbarian, Druid's the stronger class, no one debates that. However, enlarge person > bristle for a reach / AoO build. (Which is a totally legitimate build, especially at low levels.)
Quote:
3) You've never built an AC...
Light armor prof
10: Base
+5: +1 chainshirt
+4: 19 dex
+4: natural armor bonus
+3: Barkskin (Long duration buff, extended if need be)
I will admit, giving it armor didn't occur to me. However, you're now investing a significant portion of the druid's WBL into his companion, and using multiple buff spells, just to bring it close to the barbarian.
Which, mind you, was your claim, that your animal companion was more powerful than the barbarian.
1) Your animal companion's attack bonus is still around half what the barbarian is putting out, against equal or higher CR creatures it will struggle.
2) 3d8+39 (which is more than half the lion's attacks) is still less than the barbarian's 4d6 + 60.
3) You claimed that the animal companion was better than the barbarian, not that the druid's full allotment of spells + AC was better than the barbarian, Druid's the stronger class, no one debates that. However, enlarge person > bristle for a reach / AoO build. (Which is a totally legitimate build, especially at low levels.)
I will admit, giving it armor didn't occur to me. However, you're now investing a significant portion of the druid's WBL into his companion, and using multiple buff spells, just to bring it close to the barbarian.
1) The barbarian can't pounce for 2 levels before hand and must dedicate 5 rage powers to receive pounce.
2) A single bark skin and 1000 gold doesn't qualify as a major investment. The lion will struggle against super high AC and damage reduction but iterative hits are more likely to miss than the average lion hit (+13 before buffs).
3) If the barbarian can invest his full gold in hitting things you can invest the full gold into the AC, make it better than the barbarian, and still have a summoning druid.
For mathy
Spoiler:
4) You assume the barbarian auto hits. At 7th level the average target ac of a CR10 is 24 which means the lion is hitting exactly 50% of 5d8+65 or 87.5/2=43.75 average damage from the unbuffed animal companion. The first round the barbarian can't pounce but we'll ignore that. Power attack, Reckless abandon (which you can't take with the pounce totem due to pre requisites) and weapon focus. Assuming Rage and starting STR 18 with a +1 furious and a +2 str item you'll have 6 BAB + 3 weapon +7 STR (Rage) 1 WF and pa+RA cancel. +17/+12 means you have 32 average damage on a hit 20.8 on the primary and 12.8 on the iterative for 33.6 average damage. To break even you'd need around 11 more damage. This build is also inferior to the vicious AOMF build which people dislike do I'm not going to use it. So yes on average an animal companion is literally better than a barbarian. The above build completely ignores that you can't take reckless abandon and qualify for pounce at 10 because it has 4 requisite feats (2 for lesser totem, lesser totem, and normal totem). I also didn't count the large bonus of grab or charge +2 to hit's. Flanking also further benefits the lion. Literally anything that increases damage increases it more to the lion.
Note: Critical hits actually further pull it in favor of the lion so I ignored them "But they shouldn't" add them if you don't believe me.
The barbarian is behind even if you don't give it the AOMF. I personally always do because there is very little to buy as a druid outside of rods and a headband/belt. (You don't use weapons or armor) If you strip away the gold from the barbarian you'll also notice a huge dip in damage.
CAGM puts the barbarian a mile ahead. AOO's on reach barbarians put them close (What I'm building) but they are behind whenever the AC isn't facing DR. The thing is you're always facing DR so a +2 furious weapon is often significantly better than doing an extra 10-30 average a round.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying barbarians have no place but when the AC isn't being hamstrung it's significantly better than a barbarian pre 12.
