So I've been playing Dragon Age 2. Doesn't suck as bad as my initial impression of it led me to believe.
The Rogue in that game is pretty awesome. Best single target death dealer in the game, plus it can unlock chests and disable traps.
So, here's a Rogue rework loosely based on it.
BaB/Saves/Skills/Proficiencies Unchanged.
Backstab (Ex): As a Standard action when attacking a target who has been denied their Dex bonus to AC, a Rogue may perform a Backstab. This is an attack that will automatically critically threaten (and confirm) if successful. Any rider effects that trigger on a natural critical will trigger on a Backstab. For the effects of a Backstab, a weapon's critical multiplier is always x2.
Trapfinding (Ex): A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Rogue Talents: At 2nd level, 5th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, a Rogue gains a Rogue Talent.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Twin Fangs (Ex): Starting at 8th level, as a full round action a Rogue wielding two weapons may perform a Backstab with both weapons she is holding.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to Backstab the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Advanced Rogue Talents: Starting at 11th level, a Rogue may choose an Advanced Rogue Talent in place of a Rogue Talent.
Deadly Backstab (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when attacking unprepared targets. Backstab's critical multiplier increases by 1 (this stacks with the Devastating Backstab increase). In addition, Twin Fangs may be performed as a Standard Action.
New Rogue Talent:
Swift Feint: (Prerequisites: Rogue 8, Improved Feint, Greater Feint) A Rogue with this talent may perform a Feint as a Swift action.
New Advanced talent:
Devastating Backstab: A Rogue who chooses this talent increases her critical multiplier by 1 for the purposes of Backstab and Twin Fangs. This talent may be chosen a second time, increasing the critical multiplier by a further +1 (to a max of x4).
So, basically, the Rogue can shred anything he can get his hands on, provided he comes from Stealth or his Bluff is good.
May be a mite unbalanced, but that's the general gist of it. Could maybe stand to be toned down a bit (perhaps nix Swift Feint and replace it with a Talent that makes Feinting with Greater Feint deny Dex for a number of rounds equal to your Int mod or some such), open to suggestions.
One thing to note, the target MUST be denied Dex to AC. No Backstab/Twin Fangs on a flank.
Questions.
1) Is sneak attack still part of the class? Even with Backstab, I don't see great capability to deal damage as the rogue goes up in level.
2) Is 8th level basically a dead level for a rogue who doesn't wield two weapons?
It doesn't really addresses the main problems with the class: low accuracy and awful defenses.
BTW, I'm a big fan o Dragon age (Although I like DAO more than DA2), but its Rogue is closer to a Swashbuckler with Trapfinding than to PF's Rogue.
Questions.
1) Is sneak attack still part of the class? Even with Backstab, I don't see great capability to deal damage as the rogue goes up in level.
No. No Sneak Attack, Backstab/Twin Fangs replaces it.
2) Is 8th level basically a dead level for a rogue who doesn't wield two weapons?
Yes, I suppose it is. At the very least there's no REASON not to use two weapons here. No penalty on attack.
It doesn't really addresses the main problems with the class: low accuracy and awful defenses.
BTW, I'm a big fan o Dragon age (Although I like DAO more than DA2), but its Rogue is closer to a Swashbuckler with Trapfinding than to PF's Rogue.
Defenses? No, does nothing to fix that.
Accuracy? It can deny people their Dex as a Swift action and can make a single attack at its full attack bonus to deal as much damage as 2-4 (later 3-6 and 4-8) hits, so there's that advantage.
Accuracy? It can deny people their Dex as a Swift action and can make a single attack at its full attack bonus to deal as much damage as 2-4 (later 3-6 and 4-8) hits, so there's that advantage.
Which I suppose helps them to move and Sneak Attack, but unfortunately, more often than not, being flat-footed will only mean a -1 or -2, maybe a -3 to AC (if the feint works), which admittedly, brings them close to full BAB, but still probably not good enough. Also as a (supposedly) Dex-based class, their base damage won't be great anyway (2d6+4 every round is not much better than 1d6+2), so getting a critical hit is actually less powerful than getting Sneak Attack.
Simply adding the ability to feint as a swift action would make them more effective than doing that and trading Sneak Attack for Backstab, IMO. (Although it still wouldn't help their pathetic defenses, which is, IMHO, the main reason Rogues suck).
Assuming they don't get an Agile weapon or use Str, sure. The good thing about Backstab/Twin Fangs versus Sneak Attack is that where you basically need TWFing to make good use of Sneak Attack (running into the to-hit paradox), you only need two weapons and nothing else to make use of BS/TF.
You can be sufficiently Dex based that it fits the concept of the class, while pushing Str a bit more to make yourself a lithe, but powerful hero, rather than pushing Dex all the way.
An in-built Dex to damage mechanic would help some but that basically entirely precludes the Str Rogue (since you have to ignore a class feature to make use of it). Perhaps as a Rogue Talent available at 1st?
As for their defenses, it's hard to shore up that AND their offensive bleh-ness without overloading the class. I figured making them the ultimate class cannon (six hits for the price of two at full attack bonus on each hit by 11th level is pretty hefty) was a good compromise.
I could give them good Will without changing a whole ton and then they'd be no more squishy than any other d8 HD light armored class.
Well, Rogues don't really need TWF (in fact, I think TWF is mostly a trap for the class, their innate low accuracy added to -2 penalty and the reduced enhancement for their weapons pretty much nullifies the benefit of double Sneak Attack, IMO). They do need to-hit and less awful defenses...
Also, Twin-Fangs does push them into TWF. Even though it doesn't require TWF, the Rogue would need a decent weapon to make good use of it (hitting stuff with a masterwork dagger won't help much) and since they have to buy that 2nd weapon anyway, they might as well go the TWF route.
You have a point about Agile weapons (Str-based Rogues tend to have low AC, though, since they don't have the Dex to make up for their lack of medium armor proficiency)
I'm a bit weary of auto-crit features, though... They tend to bring unexpected consequences (I'm not sure how abusive crit feats can be on such system), but they aren't necessarily OP.
Giving them a 2nd good save would help a lot (I think I'd go with Fort and Reflex, though, as Rogues should be able to resist poison and diseases, IMO, but that's me).
I'm still not sure how much of a boost to accuracy it would be in actual play, but making 2 attacks at their highest bonus is certainly easier than making 4 attacks and hopping they all hit. Plus, the Swift Action feint at least makes it more reliable.
I don't want to sound harsh, but I think increasing the damage they deal when they do manage to hit kinda misses the point. Rogues have pretty good damage already (when they do hit their target). They need more opportunities to hit (i.e.:bigger bonuses) and better defenses. (Having something truly unique so that they aren't easily replaced by half a dozen classes would help too :P).
Don't misunderstand me... This is a good idea. I just think it could use some fine-tuning .
My only issue is with getting feints off at higher levels against non-humanoids. Wouldn't mind seeing some kind of a booster there.
Yar, it could use some tweaking. This is an idea I had in a fit of insomnia late last night/early this morning and wrote down to post later.
I figured it was a decent fix to the to-hit problem (since Rogues, much like everyone else, really don't have that hard of a time hitting their best attack...it's everything else that's the problem), but you're right it doesn't fix the class overall.
It at least makes them a viable combat class though, which is sorely needed for the Rogue since they're far from the best skill class.
They really don't deal all that good damage when they hit with Sneak Attack though. MAYBE comparable to a Barbarian in a round but at a much lower to-hit. This at least puts them at about the same damage as a Sneak Attack (when you factor in static damage and whatnot) but at a much higher to-hit.
And it's basically TWFing without the heinous Feat investment, so there's that.
They really don't deal all that good damage when they hit with Sneak Attack though. MAYBE comparable to a Barbarian in a round but at a much lower to-hit.
That's my point: Good damage, but it usually doesn't matter because they can't hit the broad side of a mountain (unless said mountains is prone, flat-footed and entangled :P).
So this is my suggestion:
1- Instead of raising damage, increase their overall accuracy (e.g.: instead of boosting their crit multiplier, give them a bonus to attack rolls when they use Backstab)
2- Give them a little boost to their defenses (A 2nd save is a good start, maybe add a bonus to AC/CMD against opponents whom are hit by Backstab).
3- Make sure they are rewarded for investing in Int and Cha. Those are the attributes most players associate with the class, but Rogues have little to no incentive to raise them beyond 10 or 12. In fact, they are a Rogue's most efficient dump stats -.-'.
They really don't deal all that good damage when they hit with Sneak Attack though. MAYBE comparable to a Barbarian in a round but at a much lower to-hit.That's my point: Good damage, but it usually doesn't matter because they can't hit the broad side of a mountain (unless said mountains is prone, flat-footed and entangled :P).
So this is my suggestion:
1- Instead of raising damage, increase their overall accuracy (e.g.: instead of boosting their crit multiplier, give them a bonus to attack rolls when they use Backstab)
If the crit multiplier isn't boosted, Backstab doesn't stay competitive for very long, really.
I really don't think to-hit at their highest attack bonus is bad at all.
It's, at level 10 something like +9 BaB plus attack stat (probably 22-24 by then), plus a magic weapon (+2 or +3 at least) for a total of +17 to-hit at least (+19 at best).
So against CR appropriate stuff, they have a great chance of hitting (23-24 AC is about average for CR 10) and even higher CR things they have a decent chance to hit without feint (CR 12 is all over the place, but 26 seems about normal).
With Feint (as a Swift action, so they can do it every round no problem) against most things they'll be getting at least an extra +1 to-hit, and against many very hard to hit things they can be getting anywhere from +3 to +7 extra to-hit effectively.
I dunno. On paper it looks like it works pretty well against most things that aren't Dragons.
2- Give them a little boost to their defenses (A 2nd save is a good start, maybe add a bonus to AC/CMD against opponents whom are hit by Backstab).
This is already a thing, actually.
Just change "Sneak Attack dice rolled that round" to "Critical multiplier of their Backstab attack (doubled with usage of Twin Fangs)".
3- Make sure they are rewarded for investing in Int and Cha. Those are the attributes most players associate with the class, but Rogues have little to no incentive to raise them beyond 10 or 12. In fact, they are a Rogue's most efficient dump stats -.-'.
A focus on Feinting essentially means Cha is indirectly converted into to-hit. Int focus would be if I changed it from Swift action Feint to "Feints last for a number of rounds equal to your Int mod".
Though personally i don't think Rogues need to be incentivized to use EVERY stat. MADness sucks all around.
As-is in this draft they can get by with a Dex/Cha focus with Con/Int as secondaries and do fine.
I would like rogues to have much stronger disabling options.
When I visualize them fighting, I see them being disarm specialists, dirty tricks, cutting important ligaments, etc.
It would be cool if sneak attack did that instead of just raw damage, it would also lead to a control class that is not a spell caster
With Feats, this becomes that. All of those "X Critical" Feats that usually only turn up 30% of the time at max?
100% chance of triggering them on a Backstab. 100% chance of triggering one twice or two separate ones with Twin Fangs.
Toyed with the idea of adding another Rogue Talent (gain one Critical Feat you meet the prerequisites for, using your Rogue level in place of your BaB or some such) but forgot about it.
Those feats are trash because rogues are actually terrible at them, which is total nonsense to me
They wouldn't be if they used their Rogue level in place of BaB, as I said.