Declining Saving Throw - can you wait to decide until after the damage roll?


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The setup: 8th level Wizard casts draconic reservoir on himself and his allies for 48HP of fire absorption each, then casts detonate for 8d8 fire damage to the area. The allies get a reflex saving throw to take half damage, but it's in their interest to decline the saving throw if the total damage is 48 or less. Draconic Reservoir allows them to deal out 1d6 of fire damage via melee attacks until the absorbed energy is expended, so they would rather "take" more damage as long as it doesn't exceed the 48hp buffer. If the damage is 49-64, better to attempt the save and not take overflow damage.

The rules state that "A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality." The question is whether there is enough time for a character to determine the exact damage amount before deciding whether to "accept the result."

Is there another rule I'm missing? In the absence of another rule on point, I think the answer hinges on whether the character is able to determine the scale of the detonation before deciding whether to reflex save, i.e., cover up, shield himself, etc. What do you guys think?

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Given that you can trick people into accepting harmful spells by lying to them, I'd say you have to make all save-related decisions before you know any results.

Shadow Lodge

I would say that you have to choose before the damage dice are rolled. Being as how it is a reflex save which means you are physically trying to avoid damage, you can't wait for it to hit you (dice rolled) to avoid it.


Good points. I thought it might be possible to guess the magnitude of the approaching explosion before deciding whether to dodge/cover, but on the other hand, I imagine even a "weak" explosion of fire/acid/etc. that does minimum damage is still going to look pretty big, so the fact that theres no time to guess before you take your save makes sense.


Time wise, there is no diffence between when you save and when you take damage for a direct damage spell like this.

It's like rolling to see if you stab someone with a sword, there is no difference in time between hitting them with the sword and causing damage.

In any event, I would say you have to roll your save (or choose to fail it) before any damage is rolled.

However, avaerage damage is going to be 36, and there is only a 25% chance to go above 48 points of damage.


Southeast Jerome wrote:

Good points. I thought it might be possible to guess the magnitude of the approaching explosion before deciding whether to dodge/cover, but on the other hand, I imagine even a "weak" explosion of fire/acid/etc. that does minimum damage is still going to look pretty big, so the fact that theres no time to guess before you take your save makes sense.

1. It is completely plausible to gauge the extent of an explosion as its going off. To what degree of accuracy? Who can say. However, if you're at the beach and turn around to see a wave coming at you...you are obviously not going to automatically brace yourself (e.g. you elect to fail the saving throw) if the wave isn't higher than your knees. If it's over your head, you are.

2. It is standard practice for the GM to resolve attack and damage before creature is required to make a saving throw.

3. Does anyone make a monk choose which arrow to deflect before the damage is rolled?

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N N 959 wrote:

1. It is completely plausible to gauge the extent of an explosion as its going off. To what degree of accuracy? Who can say. However, if you're at the beach and turn around to see a wave coming at you...you are obviously not going to automatically brace yourself (e.g. you elect to fail the saving throw) if the wave isn't higher than your knees. If it's over your head, you are.

2. It is standard practice for the GM to resolve attack and damage before creature is required to make a saving throw.

3. Does anyone make a monk choose which arrow to deflect before the damage is rolled?

1. A wave moving at a few mph is a lot different from an explosion likely moving at a few hundred.

2. Is it? That seems like a waste of time for "save negates" type stuff, or disintegrate, where the entire set of damage dice changes depending on the save results.

3. Every group I've ever played with makes you pick your deflection before the damage roll. After the attack roll, though, so you can see whether or not there is a crit.


ryric wrote:


1. A wave moving at a few mph is a lot different from an explosion likely moving at a few hundred.

It's irrelevant how fast the wave is moving, what is relevant is how much time you have to react. In my example, the person turns around to see a wave about to hit them i.e. a split second to react. Your brain is more than capable of instantly perceiving the size of the wave in that instant and deciding whether you need to cringe or not.

Quote:
2. Is it? That seems like a waste of time for "save negates" type stuff, or disintegrate, where the entire set of damage dice changes depending on the save results.

Haven't been on either side of a Disintegrate spell, so I don't know. But I've yet to see GM say,

"Wait...don't roll damage. Roll your Saving Throw first."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Claxon wrote:
However, avaerage damage is going to be 36, and there is only a 25% chance to go above 48 points of damage.

Actually it's 2.62% (go go anydice.com!). Pretty safe!


Majuba wrote:
Claxon wrote:
However, avaerage damage is going to be 36, and there is only a 25% chance to go above 48 points of damage.
Actually it's 2.62% (go go anydice.com!). Pretty safe!

I wont lie, I didn't actually do the proper math, I simply did 48/64 (the maximum possible damage). I knew it would be lower than 25%, but I didn't feel like taking the time to math it out.

That however, is a handy website.

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N N 959 wrote:

1. A wave moving Haven't been on either side of a Disintegrate spell, so I don't know. But I've yet to see GM say,

"Wait...don't roll damage. Roll your Saving Throw first."

With disintegrate you have to roll your save first, as it determines how much damage the spell does. It does 2d6/caster level on a failed save and a flat 5d6 on a successful save.


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No you don't get to wait to make the save. You decide to make the save or not make it when the danger is presented. Even in real life people can take varying degrees of damage from explosions of various sizes, and by the time the explosion has reached its high point the damage is already done. You can't save after that.
Seeing as how its instantaneous there is no time to gauge anything except whether to try to avoid it or not avoid it.

It is not like the explosions gets to a certain point, then you get to say well that looks like 65 points of damage, and then it hits you. It is one big reaction damaging things while it is expanding.


wraithstrike wrote:
Seeing as how its instantaneous there is no time to gauge anything except whether to try to avoid it or not avoid it.

It's demonstratively not "instantaneous or you would not be able to react with a "Reflex" saving throw.

Quote:
It is not like the explosions gets to a certain point, then you get to say well that looks like 65 points of damage, and then it hits you. It is one big reaction damaging things while it is expanding.

That logic is undermined by insinuating people are counting damage points. A straw man, as it were.

The question is whether someone would have some sort of intuitive feeling about an explosion before it hits them. The answer is 100% yes. Hot air from the impending blast, the movement/incineration (or lack there of) of objects already engulfed, the color of the fire, etc, would all be clues a person's brain would immediately process as the instinct to dodge or stand pat is formulated.

Sure, a person might misjudge the danger, but they would certainly have information before deciding whether to duck or not. Now, does the game contemplate that? I don't know, it's not clear. What I will say is that in PFS, I've never seen a GM ask a person to roll their saving throw before the GM rolled damage. Not even when people have Shirt Rerolls that should impact the decision.


ryric wrote:
N N 959 wrote:

1. A wave moving Haven't been on either side of a Disintegrate spell, so I don't know. But I've yet to see GM say,

"Wait...don't roll damage. Roll your Saving Throw first."

With disintegrate you have to roll your save first, as it determines how much damage the spell does. It does 2d6/caster level on a failed save and a flat 5d6 on a successful save.

Is there any where in the rules that say when the saving throw vs spell has to be made? Straight up question.

Shadow Lodge

The reason you haven't seen GMs ask for the save first is because 99% of the time you want to make the save. Also, it's easier on a logistics level to just calculate the damage first and then say you take X damage if you failed or Y damage if you passed.

Instantaneous is literally seconds. I'm sorry, but there is no way you'd be able to process the difference between minimum and maximum damage that you think might happen in that short amount of time enough to make a logical decision to dodge it or not. You either see the blast and decide to try and avoid it or not. It's that simple. You are looking way too deep and trying too hard to put realism into magic.

Edit: Also, when I GM anyway, I don't tell you how much the damage is until after you roll the save.

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N N 959 wrote:
It's demonstratively not "instantaneous or you would not be able to react with a "Reflex" saving throw.

Don't read too much into the name - an unconcious, paralyzed, or sleeping person can still roll a Reflex save. They just have a 0 Dexterity when doing so. Sometimes you are just lucky.

And no, I don't think there is atcually a rules stated preset order. 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter.


Majuba wrote:
Claxon wrote:
However, avaerage damage is going to be 36, and there is only a 25% chance to go above 48 points of damage.
Actually it's 2.62% (go go anydice.com!). Pretty safe!

Excellent point. I hadn't done the math either, and was thinking there was a greater danger of exceeding the reservoir than there actually is. If there's only a 2.6% chance of my buddies taking damage, I may not even tell them what I'm planning and let it be a surprise >:)


anthonydido wrote:
I'm sorry, but there is no way you'd be able to process the difference between minimum and maximum damage that you think might happen in that short amount of time enough to make a logical decision to dodge it or not. You either see the blast and decide to try and avoid it or not. It's that simple. You are looking way too deep and trying too hard to put realism into magic.

Wow...that is just flat out wrong on so many levels.

1. You absolutely can asses a threat as you seek to avoid it. Happens in sports ALL THE TIME. Running bacs are instantly evaluating decisions on whether to cut back, run through someone, run past them, or spin. More importantly, these reactions can be fine-tuned and trained.

2. You have no clue about how quickly someone's brain can assess something compared to the reflex save they are making in any given circumstance. I'll clue you in...according to a website source, it's 215 millisecond. Now, please tell me how long it takes a fireball to move from Point A to Point B?

Quote:
You either see the blast and decide to try and avoid it or not. It's that simple.

How about you provide us with a citation?

Quote:
You are looking way too deep and trying too hard to put realism into magic.

The DC's for Jumping were based on one of the developers actually showing the other developers how far he could jump from a standing position. True story.

What I am doing is pointing out that in the absence of a specific citation that precludes one from intuitively assessing a threat (which you failed to provide), it's possible in-game because it's possible out-of-game.

One of the biggest fallacies in D&D/PF is that players can't know things through their character's intuition. There's a tremendously ignorant attitude that characters can't know anything if the player needs to get a number to know it.


ryric wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
It's demonstratively not "instantaneous or you would not be able to react with a "Reflex" saving throw.

Don't read too much into the name - an unconcious, paralyzed, or sleeping person can still roll a Reflex save. They just have a 0 Dexterity when doing so. Sometimes you are just lucky.

And no, I don't think there is atcually a rules stated preset order. 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter.

PRD: Reflex wrote:
Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations

So sure, reflex can represent some dump luck in avoiding a blast, but ostensibly it is based on reacting to something. You react to things you can perceive. If you can perceive it, your brain can make an assessment on the nature of the threat.

In fact, because your Reflex save is modified by your Dex, it mandates that that you are, in fact, perceiving a threat. Arguing that the character has no concept of the magnitude of the threat they are perceiving is a contradiction. If this were Will save, I'd agree, but it's not.

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N N 959 wrote:

So sure, reflex can represent some dump luck in avoiding a blast, but ostensibly it is based on reacting to something. You react to things you can perceive. If you can perceive it, your brain can make an assessment on the nature of the threat.

In fact, because your Reflex save is modified by your Dex, it mandates that that you are, in fact, perceiving a threat. Arguing that the character has no concept of the magnitude of the threat they are perceiving is a contradiction. If this were Will save, I'd agree, but it's not.

Except you can also make Reflex saves in situations where you have no idea the attack is coming. In fact there is not even a penalty to your save against an unexpected attack.

A stealthed creature could blast you with no warning whatsoever and you still get your full Reflex save. That may clash with your sense of verisimilitude but there it is.

Also, there are effects that could be very deceptive in magnitude. Some dragons' breath weapon is steam. Steam is invisible. Also, steam can be anywhere from a couple hundred degrees to thousands. You better believe that there is a jump in danger level there, and absolutely no way to tell the difference visually.


N N 959 wrote:
anthonydido wrote:
I'm sorry, but there is no way you'd be able to process the difference between minimum and maximum damage that you think might happen in that short amount of time enough to make a logical decision to dodge it or not. You either see the blast and decide to try and avoid it or not. It's that simple. You are looking way too deep and trying too hard to put realism into magic.

Wow...that is just flat out wrong on so many levels.

1. You absolutely can asses a threat as you seek to avoid it. Happens in sports ALL THE TIME. Running bacs are instantly evaluating decisions on whether to cut back, run through someone, run past them, or spin. More importantly, these reactions can be fine-tuned and trained.

But when was the last time you saw a running back go "Gee that explosion looks like it might be survivable I guess" as it was going off?

N N 959 wrote:
2. You have no clue about how quickly someone's brain can assess something compared to the reflex save they are making in any given circumstance. I'll clue you in...according to a website source, it's 215 millisecond. Now, please tell me how long it takes a fireball to move from Point A to Point B?

An explosive's "detonation velocity" is like a minimum of 1800 m/s, I believe, from just a cursory search on the subject.

So AT MINIMUM, it can cover that 30 feet (~10 meters) in. roughly .0055 seconds? So, 5.5 milliseconds. Versus your 215 millisecond reaction time.

Not looking good for you.

Quote:

What I am doing is pointing out that in the absence of a specific citation that precludes one from intuitively assessing a threat (which you failed to provide), it's possible in-game because it's possible out-of-game.

I'm going to need a citation from YOU saying it's possible IRL now.


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i think the damage and saving throw happen simultaniously. the order of their rolling is irrelevant.


ryric wrote:


Except you can also make Reflex saves in situations where you have no idea the attack is coming. In fact there is not even a penalty to your save against an unexpected attack.

A stealthed creature could blast you with no warning whatsoever and you still get your full Reflex save. That may clash with your sense of verisimilitude but there it is.

Also, there are effects that could be very deceptive in magnitude. Some dragons' breath weapon is steam. Steam is invisible. Also, steam can be anywhere from a couple hundred degrees to thousands. You better believe that there is a jump in danger level there, and absolutely no way to tell the difference visually.

If the Reflex save allows a character Dex modifier to apply, then I would roll damage first and then give the option of save or no save, whether the modifier was positive or not. If you are getting a Reflex Saving Throw to which your Dex mods apply, then your body is obviously perceiving some danger that it is reacting to. This is incontrovertible.

Steam gives off heat and contains water vapor. Water vapor bends light. Heat bends light. Steam is not invisible. The heat and speed of the air being excited by the steam would indicate how comparatively hot it was. Close your eyes and plug your ears and go stand next to a fire. Now stand next to a lighted match. Obviously you can perceive the difference in the temperature without seeing or hearing it.

Scarab Sages

NN959, you've gotten a lot of responses. I don't know what you're expecting at this point, I doubt you're going to change any minds here.

For what it's worth, I also say you need to make the Reflex save before damage. If not from a realism standpoint, from a mechanics standpoint. It reeks of cheese to allow you to check out the damage first before deciding on whether or not to avoid it.


N N 959 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Seeing as how its instantaneous there is no time to gauge anything except whether to try to avoid it or not avoid it.

It's demonstratively not "instantaneous or you would not be able to react with a "Reflex" saving throw.

You can't even move when you are unconscious. The reflex save also demonstrates luck and other things, not just you moving so that point has no merit with regard to being instantaneous and by the rules it is instantaneous.


N N 959 wrote:

Hot air from the impending blast, the movement/incineration (or lack there of) of objects already engulfed, the color of the fire, etc, would all be clues a person's brain would immediately process as the instinct to dodge or stand pat is formulated.

Sure, a person might misjudge the danger, but they would certainly have information before deciding whether to duck or not. Now, does the game contemplate that? I don't know, it's not clear. What I will say is that in PFS, I've never seen a GM ask a person to roll their saving throw before the GM rolled damage. Not even when people have Shirt Rerolls that should impact the decision.

The damage is taking place before your pain recepters process it, so once again you can't wait.

Stop trying to cheese the rules and just roll the dice.

Shadow Lodge

NN959, you're making a lot of assumptions with no rules basis and claiming it as fact. Where are your citations?

For starters, the detonate spell says nothing of "absorbing energy". All it says is "You flood yourself with a potent surge of elemental energy. One round after completing the casting of the spell, the energy explodes from your body."

And I don't know how you assume someone could percieve how intense the blast is going to be from that.

You are also confusing basic reflexes and reaction to being able to sense how intense a SPELL is going to be before it even finishes going off. A running back seeing how big a defender is isn't even close to the same thing as knowing how intense a blast will be.

This is magic. Whatever RL analogies you bring to the conversation are utterly pointless because we don't have magic in RL so your comparisons are purely speculative.

All we really have to go by is that the spell is "instantaneous" meaning it happens in a flash or even the blink of an eye.

There also isn't any hard rule that says the reflex save happens first but I think it's pretty common knowledge by most people that it would. Especially since there are spells (such as disintegrate) where it makes a big difference whether you make the save or not. Just because a GM may physically roll the damage before asking for a save doesn't mean that the damage happens first.

The closest thing I can see to this being possible is if you use spellcraft to identify the spell then you can use the knowledge you have of that spell and any you may have on the caster to try and guess how intense it would be.


ryric wrote:
N N 959 wrote:

So sure, reflex can represent some dump luck in avoiding a blast, but ostensibly it is based on reacting to something. You react to things you can perceive. If you can perceive it, your brain can make an assessment on the nature of the threat.

In fact, because your Reflex save is modified by your Dex, it mandates that that you are, in fact, perceiving a threat. Arguing that the character has no concept of the magnitude of the threat they are perceiving is a contradiction. If this were Will save, I'd agree, but it's not.

Except you can also make Reflex saves in situations where you have no idea the attack is coming. In fact there is not even a penalty to your save against an unexpected attack.

NN 959 why did you not reply to what is bolded, or is your non reply a way of admitting that you were wrong?


Karui Kage wrote:
NN959, you've gotten a lot of responses. I don't know what you're expecting at this point, I doubt you're going to change any minds here.

What has that got to do with my stating my opinion to the OP and defending my perspective?


wraithstrike wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Seeing as how its instantaneous there is no time to gauge anything except whether to try to avoid it or not avoid it.

It's demonstratively not "instantaneous or you would not be able to react with a "Reflex" saving throw.

You can't even move when you are unconscious. The reflex save also demonstrates luck and other things, not just you moving so that point has no merit with regard to being instantaneous and by the rules it is instantaneous.

The very spell in question says otherwise. You don't get a Reflex ST if you are 15' or closer. If you are 15'1" you get a Reflex ST. Obviously the authors believe at 15'+, you have time to react. If my point has no merit, then why doesn't everyone get a saving throw regardless of distance?

The fact is, and it is a fact, the rules are don't obey any rigorous "truth." The developers' decision to allow a Saving Throw or not, has more to do with their sense of fairness/desired outcome and that will supersede logic/common sense. When it suits them, they rationalize something based on the "real world." When it doesn't, they simply ignore it.

But the incontrovertible fact is a Reflex save is fundamentally based on the concept of reflex to stimuli. A reflex requires an ability to perceive something on some level. Exceptions to the rule don't change that fact, they are "exceptions to the rule."


wraithstrike wrote:

The damage is taking place before your pain recepters process it, so once again you can't wait.

Stop trying to cheese the rules and just roll the dice.

We're talking about a character perceive the magnitude of the threat and deciding whether they can absorb it or need to avoid. A 2" dragon breathes fire on them...vs a 30' dragon breathing fire on them. A character can easily determine one is going to do more damage than the other as the fire approaches them.

And stop trying to cheat the players out of knowledge their characters would perceive.

Shadow Lodge

Detonate doesn't say that you don't get a saving throw within 15'. You may want to reread it. It says it deals full damage (before making a save) to creatures within 15' and half damage (again before the save) to creatures 15-30'.


anthonydido wrote:
NN959, you're making a lot of assumptions with no rules basis and claiming it as fact. Where are your citations?

It's been confirmed that there is nothing in RAW that states when a reflex ST has to be made. We are all making assumptions.

What is not an assumption is that, barring an exception, a reflex saving throw is modified by your ability to physically avoid something.


anthonydido wrote:
Detonate doesn't say that you don't get a saving throw within 15'. You may want to reread it. It says it deals full damage (before making a save) to creatures within 15' and half damage (again before the save) to creatures 15-30'.

That's correct. My mistake, but the caster doesn't get a saving throw. In addition if you are helpless your Dex mod is -5. So clearly being able to react affects your ability to avoid damage.

So the Relfex ST is not just some automatic thing that happens, regardless.

Shadow Lodge

N N 959 wrote:


So the Relfex ST is not just some automatic thing that happens, regardless.

But it sort of is as ryric stated earlier but you haven't responded to yet:

ryric wrote:

Except you can also make Reflex saves in situations where you have no idea the attack is coming. In fact there is not even a penalty to your save against an unexpected attack.

A stealthed creature could blast you with no warning whatsoever and you still get your full Reflex save. That may clash with your sense of verisimilitude but there it is.


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Let me pose this. Let us posit that it is possible to gauge the severity of the magical fireball. How, in game terms, does one do this? What ability represents this? If one can be identified then it may be possible. If there is no mechanical way of identifying the magnitude of the threat, then you cannot possibly know enough information to make the sort of decision to avoid or not avoid the fireball because "it is X amount of damage" because you have no idea how much damage it will deal.

And if you haven't already guessed, I don't believe it is possible. Nothing, to my knowledge, allows you to discern between the casting of a fireball between a 5th level wizard or a 10th level wizard. Spellcraft will allow you to identify it either way, but it doesn't let you know how much damage is does. And you can't possibly know, and so you could never "wait till after the damage is rolled and know how much damage will be done".


Claxon wrote:

Let me pose this. Let us posit that it is possible to gauge the severity of the magical fireball. How, in game terms, does one do this? What ability represents this? If one can be identified then it may be possible. If there is no mechanical way of identifying the magnitude of the threat, then you cannot possibly know enough information to make the sort of decision to avoid or not avoid the fireball because "it is X amount of damage" because you have no idea how much damage it will deal.

And if you haven't already guessed, I don't believe it is possible. Nothing, to my knowledge, allows you to discern between the casting of a fireball between a 5th level wizard or a 10th level wizard. Spellcraft will allow you to identify it either way, but it doesn't let you know how much damage is does. And you can't possibly know, and so you could never "wait till after the damage is rolled and know how much damage will be done".

I was hoping someone would go here. So you agree that someone might perceive magnitude but you're hung up on some mechanism for determining the damage? How does one know how much damage a sword does compared to a dagger? What is the skill that tells us that? How do we know how much damage our attacks do? What is the skill that tells us this?

It's a game. We know all kinds of things as players that have no real world translation and would be impossible for us to know in RL. Yet, we make game changing decisions on that knowledge throughout the game. Allowing a player to know how much damage a fireball is going to do is no less meta-gamey then a character knowing their own Hit Points. And yeah, there are GMs in AD&D who believed in making sure players didn't know exactly how many hit points their own characters had.

The bottom line is that there is a basis for the character to perceive the nature of the threat. I'm not going to get my underwear twisted in a knot over them knowing the exact amount given all the other completely nonsensical things that have become accepted as part of the game.


anthonydido wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
So the Relfex ST is not just some automatic thing that happens, regardless.

But it sort of is as ryric stated earlier but you haven't responded to yet:

ryric wrote:

Except you can also make Reflex saves in situations where you have no idea the attack is coming. In fact there is not even a penalty to your save against an unexpected attack.

A stealthed creature could blast you with no warning whatsoever and you still get your full Reflex save. That may clash with your sense of verisimilitude but there it is.

I did respond to it. It's called a game. When it suits the designers to ignore verisimilitude, they ignore it. Explain to me how someone in Full Plate is harder to physically hit (not damage) than someone who is naked? Explain to me why a person trying to climb a rope (flat-footed) is no easier to hit simply because they don't have a Dex modifier above 10?

The game is filled with nonsensical and inconsistent applications of rules. That doesn't change the fundamental fact that plate armor is going to protect you more than being naked and that when you make a reflex save that can be modified by your Dex, you are avoid something you perceive on some level...even if its extrasensory.

And no, if you're helpless, you don't get to know the damage before you save.


*Sigh*

I'm only going to add that you can only choose to be affected by a spell, if you have SR, by voluntarily lowering your SR, which takes a standard action, as per the rules. The rest of this is a quagmire of attempting to one-up the rules.


"I was hoping someone would go here. So you agree that someone might perceive magnitude but you're hung up on some mechanism for determining the damage?"

I don't think that's what he said. He didn't agree. He just said, let's say for the moment you can. That's different from actual agreement.

The -5 for being helpless is not because you aren't aware of the attack. It's because your dexterity is effectively zero when helpless, which imposes a -5 penalty, just based only on your dexterity being zero. Not from any lack of perception.


TyrKnight wrote:
"I was hoping someone would go here. So you agree that someone might perceive magnitude but you're hung up on some mechanism for determining the damage?"

The question mark at the end of my sentence indicates I am acknowledging his hypothetical. It's a rhetorical question.

TyrKnight wrote:
The -5 for being helpless is not because you aren't aware of the attack. It's because your dexterity is effectively zero when helpless, which imposes a -5 penalty, just based only on your dexterity being zero. Not from any lack of perception.

I didn't say the -5 is because you can't perceive it.


N N 959 wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Let me pose this. Let us posit that it is possible to gauge the severity of the magical fireball. How, in game terms, does one do this? What ability represents this? If one can be identified then it may be possible. If there is no mechanical way of identifying the magnitude of the threat, then you cannot possibly know enough information to make the sort of decision to avoid or not avoid the fireball because "it is X amount of damage" because you have no idea how much damage it will deal.

And if you haven't already guessed, I don't believe it is possible. Nothing, to my knowledge, allows you to discern between the casting of a fireball between a 5th level wizard or a 10th level wizard. Spellcraft will allow you to identify it either way, but it doesn't let you know how much damage is does. And you can't possibly know, and so you could never "wait till after the damage is rolled and know how much damage will be done".

I was hoping someone would go here. So you agree that someone might perceive magnitude but you're hung up on some mechanism for determining the damage? How does one know how much damage a sword does compared to a dagger? What is the skill that tells us that? How do we know how much damage our attacks do? What is the skill that tells us this?

It's a game. We know all kinds of things as players that have no real world translation and would be impossible for us to know in RL. Yet, we make game changing decisions on that knowledge throughout the game. Allowing a player to know how much damage a fireball is going to do is no less meta-gamey then a character knowing their own Hit Points. And yeah, there are GMs in AD&D who believed in making sure players didn't know exactly how many hit points their own characters had.

The bottom line is that there is a basis for the character to perceive the nature of the threat. I'm not going to get my underwear twisted in a knot over them knowing the exact amount given all the other completely nonsensical things...

So you completely avoided the question and couldn't come up with an answer. Got it. You have no idea, and ergo there is no justification for what you are proposing. The fact that you admit that hit points and damage in general are abstract and characters should have no idea of them only helps me. It's not as if the the game is assumed to tell you the hit points of the enemy, their saves DCs, or their AC. Why? Because these are terms for us as players, not characters. The characters don't know any of these things and shouldn't. GMs will sometimes tell players these things, not because they should know it, but because it makes running the game easier. It's a matter of convenience, but is still metagamey. So, if your only argument is that we should allow it because it's no more metagamey than other things that people do, I hope you'll excuse me if I ignore you and keep walking.


I like how he completely ignored the part where I mathematically proved his theory of human reaction times being able to keep up with an explosion wrong.


Rynjin wrote:
I like how he completely ignored the part where I mathematically proved his theory of human reaction times being able to keep up with an explosion wrong.

Don't delude yourself. The fact that we're given a reflex save that includes our dex modifier says the the authors don't give a rats on how fast an explosion travels. If you can move, you can apply your skill at moving to avoid the damage. PM Mark your data, maybe he'll change the saving throw on fireball and disallow a positive Dex mod...or maybe he won't.


N N 959 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
I like how he completely ignored the part where I mathematically proved his theory of human reaction times being able to keep up with an explosion wrong.
Don't delude yourself. The fact that we're given a reflex save that includes our dex modifier says the the authors don't give a rats on how fast an explosion travels. If you can move, you can apply your skill at moving to avoid the damage. PM Mark your data, maybe he'll change the saving throw on fireball and disallow a positive Dex mod...or maybe he won't.

Don't be sore just because you were proven wrong.

YOU were (are) the one basing your entire argument on how real life reaction times factor in, you can't suddenly ignore that because it feels convenient to you at the moment.

A Reflex save is a game construct that shows your character's ability to avoid certain effects. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is no in-game mechanic for judging the force of an explosion as it goes off less than 30 feet from you, so you're forced to extrapolate from real life if you want to pretend there is.

Except you extrapolated poorly. Accept it and move on. You're wrong.

The rules do not work on a "It's allowed if the rules don't say I CAN'T!" basis. They never have, and they never will.

The lack of citations people are providing hurts YOUR side, not theirs.


When you come up with a way to differentiate between the fireball of a 5th level wizard and a 10th level wizard (and who is probably using metamagic) get back to me. Until then it's just a fireball, and you have no idea how much damage it does. It's magic.

Just like you can't gauge how hard the barbarian is swinging his sword and whether or not he is using power attack, you have no idea how much damage he's about to do or how much damage the wizards fireball does.

You simply don't know. The onus of proof is on you. When you have some sort of actual proof I'll be willing to listen. Until that time....

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