(Sorry ahead of time for the long post)
Ok so i've been with this group a few months now and i am facing a rather alien concept to me atm. My last group i got kicked out because i couldn't keep up, my characters died like 5 min into each session and i would spend the rest of the session building a new character, i couldn't even figure out which die were which much less when to use them. Now i'm facing a situation where the group is upset because i'm "doing so much better than everyone else".
Now here's what happened. This group has become a good group of friends and i really enjoy playing with them, however one of the members decided to DM while the first DM fixed his campaign. The only caveat is that he has to finish his campaign this time. To top it off he supposedly runs really massive campaigns that take many months to complete. On the first night of his session we had a person die from a situation giving the party no other choice to make and no roll to survive, just an automatic he wanted to kill someone no ifs and buts just because he could. This alone told me we had a killer DM, not a typical killer DM where you can make choices or good rolls to survive but every night people are gona die and nothing can be done. So i figure i'd make myself an optimized build in an attempt to survive longer than half a night. I had insane AC, insane damage, and one free breath of life per day due to various feat combos and magic gear combos i picked up along the way. He got upset because he couldn't figure out ways around it even though there are many many ways around it. Just like there were ways around his style of DM there were ways around my style of play.
Well now he's upset and said i can't make powerful characters anymore because it isn't fair to other players. Now this i was confused about so i asked what he meant. Apparently me using the full selection of official Paizo books to hand build my character the old fashioned way on a sheet gave me an unfair advantage because everyone else was using the basic version of hero labs and didn't have all the books on hero labs. I explained the only reason i made optimized builds instead of the fun quirky characters i prefer (can you say paladin wielding a skillet)was because every night had many no option pointless deaths that i was attempting to survive partially because it takes time to build a character the old fashioned way. He told me i need to buy hero labs to make it fair to the other players. But frankly i don't have 30-100$ to spend, hell i'm still behind on rent and only eating every two days....
Now i like this group and they are good friends so i really don't want to leave and go search for a new group again. But i also don't wana hafta step out for 6+ months and wait for a new DM campaign. I have so far gone out of my way to make a pure support spell-caster that can't even deal more than 1d4 damage per every two turns, but it seems like he's getting upset about that to. Now frankly i can't take the DM's Fiance Feat to survive so i'm screwed. I was thinking i could instead make a blind cripple mute village idiot who's only weapon is flinging poo at the enemy and doesn't have a single stat above 6.... but that's rather extreme. Any suggestions out there?
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But frankly i don't have 30-100$ to spend, hell i'm still behind on rent and only eating every two days....
Maybe you should focus on that problem and worry less about an unwinnable situation in a role-playing game?
Afaik, parts of hero lab are free to use?
But frankly i don't have 30-100$ to spend, hell i'm still behind on rent and only eating every two days....Maybe you should focus on that problem and worry less about an unwinnable situation in a role-playing game?
I do believe applying for 10 new jobs a day in hopes of getting one that pays better and staring up a new semester of school on GI bill so i can get my civilian welding certifications and get a better paying job has that problem resolved.
Easiest answer is to fire him.
That's seldom the desired solution, but its an option that's commonly forgotten.
can't the other DM's made him promise to finish his campaign this time.
That just means that he has to be willing to continue with the campaign even if he's sick of it. It doesn't mean the group has to put up with unlimited abuse; you didn't make any promises.
He sounds like a jerk...you don't tell people their character is too powerful...it sounds like he's a power tripping maniac DM that gives the hobby a bad name...
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It's generally OK to tell someone their character is too powerful if they're ruining an adventure by making all the other players feel obsolete.
Now i'm facing a situation where the group is upset because i'm "doing so much better than everyone else".
So the entire group, not just the GM, is upset with your character?
On the first night of his session we had a person die from a situation giving the party no other choice to make and no roll to survive, just an automatic he wanted to kill someone no ifs and buts just because he could.
Need more explanation. Is this like a character went to sleep in a dangerous area and the GM ruled he was killed in his sleep, or what?
He told me i need to buy hero labs to make it fair to the other players.
Could you just ask for a list of allowed books (core only, core + whatever) and that way you'd be following the same rules?
Lastly - it seems like you want to stay with this group even though you describe the GM as being pretty terrible. Something is not adding up.
Now i'm facing a situation where the group is upset because i'm "doing so much better than everyone else".So the entire group, not just the GM, is upset with your character?
On the first night of his session we had a person die from a situation giving the party no other choice to make and no roll to survive, just an automatic he wanted to kill someone no ifs and buts just because he could.Need more explanation. Is this like a character went to sleep in a dangerous area and the GM ruled he was killed in his sleep, or what?
He told me i need to buy hero labs to make it fair to the other players.Could you just ask for a list of allowed books (core only, core + whatever) and that way you'd be following the same rules?
Lastly - it seems like you want to stay with this group even though you describe the GM as being pretty terrible. Something is not adding up.
DM said the whole group was upset.
he walked through a door and was struck in the chest by an insta kill spell no save or choice. DM said very specifically that the first person to open the door would die and we had to go through the door.
when we started the campaign he said anything from the official Paizo books except uncommon races was allowed. Told me that me doing my character sheets by hand was unfair because it gave me more knowledge on how to build a character because i had to read the books instead of point and click a character like everyone else. So essentially if i had the money to buy Hero Labs with or without all the book plugins it would be ok.
It's a good group and the other Dm's are alright. It's a temporary situation albeit a long term one.
I don't get why Hero Lab would be different then hand made. I have players that make their characters themselves and other that ask me to make them based on what they tell me and in between where they "point and click" through the books. I use Hero Lab for NPCs, making an optimized character isn't in the tool used to create the character but in the thinking that goes behind the choice you make.
If you are thinking "what is the best choice to keep me alive because I don't want to have to make a new character" you will make an optimized character using paper or Hero Lab.
It seems to me like the GM made a mistake in making this an arms race between you and him. Disarming will have to come from both ways, he needs to be careful not to be too deadly and you will need to bring your character down in power level a bit so that what threatens your character doesn't obliterate the other characters.
Can you ask one of your friends with the Herolabs to let you use theirs instead of buying it?
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Easiest answer is to fire him.
That's seldom the desired solution, but its an option that's commonly forgotten.
Fire him or get out. There's no point in playing in a game you aren't having fun.
Have a chat with the other players about what they think maybe. Comes off as a little shady, but its better than taking the GMs word for it that their bothered by you. There's a lot of unhealthy behavior going on.
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Told me that me doing my character sheets by hand was unfair because it gave me more knowledge on how to build a character because i had to read the books instead of point and click a character like everyone else.
So basically he says it's unfair if you bother to learn the rules because it gives you an advantage?
What?
Told me that me doing my character sheets by hand was unfair because it gave me more knowledge on how to build a character because i had to read the books instead of point and click a character like everyone else.So basically he says it's unfair if you bother to learn the rules because it gives you an advantage?
What?
"What?" indeed. I had to read it a couple of times.
The OP is, essentially, screwed. It is abundantly clear he is dealing with a significantly irrational individual, and there's not much he can do about that. His statements are approaching levels of certifiable insanity.
See if you can use someone else's Hero Lab, I guess... If you want to stick around for that sort of abuse. I wouldn't.
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Have a chat with the other players about what they think maybe. Comes off as a little shady, but its better than taking the GMs word for it that their bothered by you. There's a lot of unhealthy behavior going on.
This. Only don't be shady. Next game, as soon as it's about to start, announce you have something you need to discuss with the entire group.
Let the group know that the GM said they all had trouble with your character. You want to be a team player, and you'd like to know what their complaint is. The GM's already told you what he doesn't like, but you'd like to understand all of the issues.
This will start an open conversation, and you can use that to really figure out where you stand.
Know where you stand. If they really are your friends, you should be able to ask to build a character using someone else's herolab, and they'll print out the pdf for you, if you want to keep playing with this guy as GM. Maybe you steer the conversation toward what makes gaming fun for all the players, with pros and cons for this guys GMing style. Maybe you steer the conversation toward someone else running games. Maybe you decide this isn't the group for you after all.
But I think getting it out in the open is the only way you'll really understand what's going on in this group, and it's the only way to make a serious effort to fix the problem.
I find the first group even weirder. They kicked someone out for making characters that got killed?
You've had bad luck with DMs it sounds.
One way or another the group has to have a relatively even amount of optimization. If the rest of the group can barely put together functioning characters using hero lab, then you made a mistake going all out on survival. It doesnt matter if this is a killer gm, and he's a jerk. Trying to circumvent gm playstyle with character choices is never a good idea. It can ONLY cause more problems then it solves. You cant out optimize the gm, rocks can still fall, and getting into an arms race will only lead to more trouble.
Instead, sit down with your group and create a character that fits with their overall level of optimization OR help them make better characters. Those are literally our only two choices there.
As for the dm, he seems a bit irrational and probably has some very weird impressions about 'powerful' character. But that shouldnt matter so long as your characters are on par with the rest of the group. Explain to him that you would be happy to make a character that fits better in the game, but not with hero lab, you need to do it manually because thats the method available to you. You should also point out that regardless of what tools you are using, everyone should understand how characters work. Hero labs is supposed to help make things faster, not replace understanding of the game.
Instead, sit down with your group and create a character that fits with their overall level of optimization OR help them make better characters. Those are literally our only two choices there.
As for the dm, he seems a bit irrational and probably has some very weird impressions about 'powerful' character. But that shouldnt matter so long as your characters are on par with the rest of the group. Explain to him that you would be happy to make a character that fits better in the game, but not with hero lab, you need to do it manually because thats the method available to you. You should also point out that regardless of what tools you are using, everyone should understand how characters work. Hero labs is supposed to help make things faster, not replace understanding of the game.
i've offered to help them even offered the books to them for use. And even went so far as to make a custom pdf character sheet with separate text boxes for every single line and square, which took hours of grueling work as it's a 10 page pdf giving you a page for all those special class features such as a rage page, summoned creature page, inventory page, companion page, spell page etc. Sadly they are stuck on hero labs, and refused all the help and resources i offered. But you're right it shouldn't replace understanding of the game, which regrettably seems to be the chief argument, that i know to much about the game.
I've recently made a pure support caster to replace my optimized inquisitor which replaced my optimized cavalier, but after asking for approval on the character the DM seemed upset about it. Now keep in mind i went so far out on making it pure support that at most he does 1d4 damage. I figured if i go full support how can they complain i'm doing all the work. But apparently i made my support character to powerful as well....
as for his ideas of powerful... he was right to an extent. (this is pathfinder rules) but i was at level 8 or 9 running some 10D8 a turn had 29AC aprox 120HP, and i was mounted on a gryphon which was fairly impressive itself.... with my teamwork feats i gave the team an extra 1d4 damage when fighting together and negated most AoO.
Do some GMing yourself and show them how it's done.
I really want to. But i've never DM'd before and i'm afraid of being an even worse DM lol.
I find the first group even weirder. They kicked someone out for making characters that got killed?
You've had bad luck with DMs it sounds.
I have bad luck in general. and i didn't like that group much anyways.
Told me that me doing my character sheets by hand was unfair because it gave me more knowledge on how to build a character because i had to read the books instead of point and click a character like everyone else.So basically he says it's unfair if you bother to learn the rules because it gives you an advantage?
What?
"What?" indeed. I had to read it a couple of times.
The OP is, essentially, screwed. It is abundantly clear he is dealing with a significantly irrational individual, and there's not much he can do about that. His statements are approaching levels of certifiable insanity.
See if you can use someone else's Hero Lab, I guess... If you want to stick around for that sort of abuse. I wouldn't.
ya my thoughts exactly... "What?"
i wana stay with the group in general, but if something can't be worked out to fix the situation i'm thinkin i'll just take a break until another DM rolls up to bat.
Have a chat with the other players about what they think maybe. Comes off as a little shady, but its better than taking the GMs word for it that their bothered by you. There's a lot of unhealthy behavior going on.This. Only don't be shady. Next game, as soon as it's about to start, announce you have something you need to discuss with the entire group.
Let the group know that the GM said they all had trouble with your character. You want to be a team player, and you'd like to know what their complaint is. The GM's already told you what he doesn't like, but you'd like to understand all of the issues.
This will start an open conversation, and you can use that to really figure out where you stand.
Know where you stand. If they really are your friends, you should be able to ask to build a character using someone else's herolab, and they'll print out the pdf for you, if you want to keep playing with this guy as GM. Maybe you steer the conversation toward what makes gaming fun for all the players, with pros and cons for this guys GMing style. Maybe you steer the conversation toward someone else running games. Maybe you decide this isn't the group for you after all.
But I think getting it out in the open is the only way you'll really understand what's going on in this group, and it's the only way to make a serious effort to fix the problem.
I'm thinking of doing this but i feel as if i'll essentially be told to make trash characters that the DM will kill left and right like it's nothing, and at that point i'm not even playing pathfinder anymore i'm playing character sheet filer...
In regards to finding out if it's the right group or not hard to say, like i've said i like the group as a whole, just not the current DM's playing style. I am considering looking at some of the public groups in my local area but so far i've heard nothing but horror tales about those groups so i'm a little hesitant.
So,
You have a killer Dungeon Master.
You want to play the game with your favorite characters but he stops you by killing them and demanding that you shell out money.
He's also separating you from your friends by forcing you to make characters your friends can't deal with.
I think it is time to move on for a while. Keep in touch with your friends. When that guy is gone, you can get back with your buds and get back to normal gaming.
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Have a chat with the other players about what they think maybe. Comes off as a little shady, but its better than taking the GMs word for it that their bothered by you. There's a lot of unhealthy behavior going on.
This. Only don't be shady. Next game, as soon as it's about to start, announce you have something you need to discuss with the entire group.
Let the group know that the GM said they all had trouble with your character. You want to be a team player, and you'd like to know what their complaint is. The GM's already told you what he doesn't like, but you'd like to understand all of the issues.
This will start an open conversation, and you can use that to really figure out where you stand.
Know where you stand. If they really are your friends, you should be able to ask to build a character using someone else's herolab, and they'll print out the pdf for you, if you want to keep playing with this guy as GM. Maybe you steer the conversation toward what makes gaming fun for all the players, with pros and cons for this guys GMing style. Maybe you steer the conversation toward someone else running games. Maybe you decide this isn't the group for you after all.
But I think getting it out in the open is the only way you'll really understand what's going on in this group, and it's the only way to make a serious effort to fix the problem.
I'm thinking of doing this but i feel as if i'll essentially be told to make trash characters that the DM will kill left and right like it's nothing, and at that point i'm not even playing pathfinder anymore i'm playing character sheet filer...
In regards to finding out if it's the right group or not hard to say, like i've said i like the group as a whole, just not the current DM's playing style. I am considering looking at some of the public groups in my local area but so far i've heard nothing but horror tales about those groups so i'm a little hesitant.
I know you're scared to lay everything on the table because you're scared of what you'll here. I get it. totally. Been there. ^_^
I was in a group where one player didn't like another player. He would snark and make comments about the player's character, snap at him for basic question, and in general be very aggressive and nasty to him. The target player would try to laugh it off, but didn't snap back. The other players (I was the latest addition to the group) were so laid back about it they were almost comatose. I guess they all figured it wasn't there problem, and if the target didn't want to make an issue of it, they were happy to let it continue. The instigating player was the host, so I felt there was a lot of pressure on the target player to sit and take it, because of the venue.
Having been the target of a lot of bullying in my life, one egregious email exchange was my last straw. I was nervous. I was wondering if I'd be kicked out of the group. But I had to speak up. I couldn't be a bystander to that bullying anymore. Everyone knew this had been going on. Everyone just ignored it. I decided I had to lay it all out on the table and say that I couldn't stand for it anymore.
Laying all your cards on the table won't necessarily make the problem go away. the other playes may pile on and say "Yeah! Your characters are too strong! It's no fun playing in the same group with him in the party!" They may take your side. But none of that matters - in the end, your issue is you don't know what to do. You don't know what the other players think. You won't be able to make a decision you feel at peace with until you have enough information to make an informed decision. right now, you've got a GM tearing you down, giving only negative feedback and no positive feedback. His style of GMing is similar - rip everyone's character to bloody bits, or it's no good! But you don't know if the other players really have a problem with you. If the other players do have a problem with you, you don't know what that problem is. The GM isn't giving you enough information to fix the problem, he just keeps hammering you with a problem. You need to break out of that corner and find out the full picture.
You may decide you need to bow out while this guy GMs. You may decide to change your characters to a bunch of Star Trek red shirts, Thing 1, Thing 2, etc. until everyone's sick of playing musical characters. You may precipitate a real conversation about your group's social contract.
the only thing I can tell you is that you need to know the lay of the land to have a chance at making a decision you won't constantly be second guessing.
Good Luck!
I suspect I am the aggressive player Jess refers to. She is right though. Lay the truth as you see it on the table and let them know how you feel. I saw my mistake and the two of us get along now. I am still concerned about how he plays his PC but allow him to play it as he sees fit. Even if I am not the player she refers to she did have to pull me up short a time or two.
The other players may not feel as the GM does. But at present you don't know. Find out then you can make an informed decision.
I would suggest that when a GM starts complaining about how your character is built using a bunch of resources, even if the GM has allowed those resources, the answer is probably just to make a strictly Core character. Go straight vanilla cleric. He dies, bring in a new cleric of a different faith (same gear, same feats, same ability scores, etc, just different domains and maybe different race). That will save you on the rebuilding time.
Yeah good idea.
Go so core it hurts.
Then play through the pain.
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You may decide you need to bow out while this guy GMs. You may decide to change your characters to a bunch of Star Trek red shirts, Thing 1, Thing 2, etc. until everyone's sick of playing musical characters. You may precipitate a real conversation about your group's social contract.
I would suggest that when a GM starts complaining about how your character is built using a bunch of resources, even if the GM has allowed those resources, the answer is probably just to make a strictly Core character. Go straight vanilla cleric. He dies, bring in a new cleric of a different faith (same gear, same feats, same ability scores, etc, just different domains and maybe different race). That will save you on the rebuilding time.
I'm thinking a combo of those two.... Make basic human character and literally call him Red Shirt 1 Red Shirt 2 etc..... then at the very least i get a personal laugh.... i should start showing up wearing a red shirt as well lol.... ok you guys are giving me deliciously evil ideas now....
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Well don't be that obvious, call the character "Camisa Roja"
Well don't be that obvious, call the character "Camisa Roja"
Or, if you want to make a classy female character "Camisole Rouge" :P
Parasol the shield paladin.
Well don't be that obvious, call the character "Camisa Roja"Or, if you want to make a classy female character "Camisole Rouge" :P
still rather obvious considering he speaks spanish XD
still rather obvious considering he speaks spanish XDWell don't be that obvious, call the character "Camisa Roja"Or, if you want to make a classy female character "Camisole Rouge" :P
Crys Coch, Crvena Majica, Röd Tröja... just type 'Red Shirt' into a translation site and you can get scores of names for you endless stream of disposeable characters.
I'm thinking a combo of those two.... Make basic human character and literally call him Red Shirt 1 Red Shirt 2 etc..... then at the very least i get a personal laugh.... i should start showing up wearing a red shirt as well lol.... ok you guys are giving me deliciously evil ideas now....
While I can't condone passive aggressive behaviour (having been on the receiving end of it far too many times) this had me laughing out loud.
Bors the fighter. His favorite saying is, "Right! Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew comin' right up! "
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Just make a bard. Then make fifty copies of the bard's character sheet.
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Suggest that you switch to paranoia.