Can I get away with this under PFS rules?

[Snip the Shadow]

Okay, so I had an idea more from the visual end at first over any rule system. I thought it would look cool or read cool in fiction, so I wanted to try it in a character build and bring it to the table at PFS.

Here's my idea:

A Strength based Magus...say Half Orc or the Tiefling Heritage that gives a bump to the Strength stat (Demon?) and take the Two Handed Thrower Feat. Once I gained the appropriate levels and the spell opened up, I'd take the spell Returning Weapon.

My question is:

Can a build that utilizes both arcane magic and combat cast Returning Weapon on...say...a Great Axe or Maul or Earth Breaker and have it work? Is that possible? Heck, is that allowed? And how far could I sling it? Ten feet? Twenty? Five? Would that depend on my Strength Modifier?

Are you seeing the visual in your imagination now too?

Your Half Orc is in the thick of it. You hit a monster next to you. The d12 comes up 9+5 from your Strength Modifier added in and down goes the baddie. What's this!? That annoying caster is readying a spell from that balcony up there. That can't be good. You cast Returning Weapon on your Great Axe and let fly. A roll of the d12 and it comes up 11+5.

No more spell caster, and *whump whump whump SLAP* your Great Axe comes back and thumps into your hands in time to swing at two new foes that were foolish enough to come at you.

Awesome!!

Thanks ahead of time everyone.

Snip

[Chris Mortika]

Since you're wanting to throw a melee weapon, you'll want it to be a +1 weapon and have the throwing special ability already on it. As I reckon it, that's an 8,325 gp weapon or so.

[Artoo]

If you really want to just be a Magus you might be a bit limited. But if you take one level of universalist wizard you can accomplish this fairly easily with Hand of the Apprentice.

[BigNorseWolf]

You can get the axe custom ordered easily enough. By the time you have the gold you'll have enough fame that you don't need to worry about the gold cap.

I don't know magi well enough to know if you can spellcast with a two handed weapon, or throw something as a magus.

[Akerlof]

Mechanically:

1) You can cast a spell while holding a two hander, and then, if the spell provides a touch attack as part of the casting, you can deliver that touch attack with a two hander using Spellstrike. But you cannot cast a spell and do a full attack or standard action attack with a two hander using Spell Combat.

2.) The Myrmidarch magus archetype allows you to use Spellstrike in conjunction with spells that provide a ranged touch attack at level 4. That just happens to be the same level a Magus would be able to cast a Reach Shocking Grasp as a ranged touch spell without any trait shenanigans. (You still want to use the trait shenanigans, they're very powerful.)

3.) Weapons can be thrown, even without the Throwing special quality, but you take severe penalties. E.g. it would take a full round action to throw a greatsword or great axe:

CRB Equipment chapter, weapons section, thrown weapons wrote:

...It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

4.) Mechanically, it's hard to make a character that is good at throwing weapons since you need both Str for damage and Dex for accuracy, on top of the Magus's Int, not to mention feat investment which will take away from what's normally a Magus's main schtick. Ranged Spellstrike might make up for it to some extent, I really don't know. It would take some serious build tinkering and system mastery to be effective, if it can be made effective at all. I don't know about you, but "effective" is one of my qualifications for "cool."

So you could, with enough levels, build a Magus that can throw an axe with a Shocking Grasp rider. It would be kludgy and expensive and probably take some 'splainin to the GM, and it still wouldn't exactly fulfil the image you created here. Keep in mind that the rules of the game intentionally try to avoid making characters that can do everything that the main character of a novel does for one very important reason: The main character of a novel is the creation of one person and meant to provide entertainment to passive readers. The PCs in a Pathfinder game are the creations of multiple players and need to interact with each other as well as the environment and provide enjoyment for the players and GM who are creating the story as they go. They need to share the spotlight in a way that doesn't always work well in novels. (Even the Dragonlance novels focused on Tanis as the main character with others supporting his role.)

My suggestion is to pare down your idea somewhat and play something more straight forward for your first character: Maybe a Hurler Barbarian to get the feel for what throwing melee weapons in combat is like. Or perhaps a more conventional, Str based Magus who uses a Katana or Bastard Sword to get an understanding of the limitations of that class. Play for 6-7 levels to see how the game changes once you're out of the 1-2 range as well. Then, when you understand the system better (both character building and what encounters are like) revisit your idea to see if it's worth making work.

[MrSin]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't know magi well enough to know if you can spellcast with a two handed weapon, or throw something as a magus.

Lesson time then! Spell combat is the magus's ability to cast and then attack in the same round. Its a full round action that works like two weapon fighting, and the magus must have one hand free and has to be wielding a light or one handed weapon in the other hand. So no great axe with that. Spell strike allows them to deliver a touch spell with a weapon attack, and the spell actually criticals on the weapon's critical range, but is limited to x2, meaning its beneficial to use a 18-20/x2 above all else(hence the scimitar lovin'). Spell strike however does specify it has to be a melee attack. Additional note: You usually cast with a two handed weapon by taking a hand off as a free action, casting the spell, and then putting your hand back on.

Magus tend to be pretty pigeonholed in weapon style. Not sure about a great way to make a two handed style work myself because spell combat/spell strike is their big thing.

[Finlanderboy]

MrSin wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't know magi well enough to know if you can spellcast with a two handed weapon, or throw something as a magus.

Lesson time then! Spell combat is the magus's ability to cast and then attack in the same round. Its a full round action that works like two weapon fighting, and the magus must have one hand free and has to be wielding a light or one handed weapon in the other hand. So no great axe with that. Spell strike allows them to deliver a touch spell with a weapon attack, and the spell actually criticals on the weapon's critical range, but is limited to x2, meaning its beneficial to use a 18-20/x2 above all else(hence the scimitar lovin'). Spell strike however does specify it has to be a melee attack. Additional note: You usually cast with a two handed weapon by taking a hand off as a free action, casting the spell, and then putting your hand back on.

Magus tend to be pretty pigeonholed in weapon style. Not sure about a great way to make a two handed style work myself because spell combat/spell strike is their big thing.

from prd

To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.

You can not weild a two hander and do this.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

holding and wielding a two-hander are different.

You cannot do the two-weapon fighting spell & weapon thing that a Magus gets because you cannot two-weapon fight with a two-handed weapon.

But you could cast a spell, free action grasp the weapon with both hands, and deliver that spell with the two-handed weapon.

[Finlanderboy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

holding and wielding a two-hander are different.

You cannot do the two-weapon fighting spell & weapon thing that a Magus gets because you cannot two-weapon fight with a two-handed weapon.

But you could cast a spell, free action grasp the weapon with both hands, and deliver that spell with the two-handed weapon.

The rules say to use spell combat you must weild a light or one handed weapon. A two handed weapon is neither of those. So you can not spell combat using one hand to hold a two hander and then grab with your other hand once you cast the spell.

You could cast the spell and then grab with both hands a one handed weapon for the bonus.

[Jiggy]

Finlanderboy wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

holding and wielding a two-hander are different.

You cannot do the two-weapon fighting spell & weapon thing that a Magus gets because you cannot two-weapon fight with a two-handed weapon.

But you could cast a spell, free action grasp the weapon with both hands, and deliver that spell with the two-handed weapon.

The rules say to use spell combat you must weild a light or one handed weapon. A two handed weapon is neither of those. So you can not spell combat using one hand to hold a two hander and then grab with your other hand once you cast the spell.

You could cast the spell and then grab with both hands a one handed weapon for the bonus.

You appear to be confusing Spell Combat and Spellstrike.

[Akerlof]

Finlanderboy wrote:

The rules say to use spell combat you must weild a light or one handed weapon. A two handed weapon is neither of those. So you can not spell combat using one hand to hold a two hander and then grab with your other hand once you cast the spell.

You could cast the spell and then grab with both hands a one handed weapon for the bonus.

I think you might be confusing Spell Combat and Spell Strike.

Spell Combat: You can cast a spell and make a full attack with a melee weapon in the same round, taking a -2 penalty on all of your attacks. Restrictions: It's a full round action and you must be wielding a light or one handed weapon and nothing in your offhand.

Spellstrike: (When you cast a spell with a range of touch, you get a free attack at your highest BAB to deliver that spell. This is a normal function of all spells with a range of touch.) Spellstrike allows you to deliver that free attack with a weapon, using your weapon's crit range, and attacking their normal, not touch armor class. Restrictions: None beyond those normally applicable to spell casting.

So, if you have a two hander, you cannot do the normal Magus schtick of full attack plus shocking grasp, but you can cast shocking grasp the way a normal caster would and deliver it with your two hander.

Examples:

Spell Combat: Cast Color spray and make a melee attack at -2.

Spellstrike: Free action (let go of your greatsword with one hand), cast Shocking grasp, free action (regrip your greatsword) walk 30', deliver the free attack associated with Shocking Grasp by power attacking with your Greatsword. (The only difference between a Magus and a Wizard in this scenario is that the Magus delivers the attack with a Greatsword instead of his hand.) <Edit: Clarified that the attack is due to Shocking Grasp being a touch spell.>

Spell Combat + Spell Strike: Cast Shocking Grasp, deliver it with your scimitar at -2 on the attack roll, make your normal full attack sequence at -2.

Not Allowed: Cast Fireball, free action (grip your scimitar with both hands), make your normal full attack sequence at -2.

[BigNorseWolf]

Suddenly I don't feel so bad for not being able to figure out if you could do that or not..

[Gwen Smith]

A couple of fun tricks for throwing builds that might help:

Bounding Hammer: If you throw a hammer at someone within 20ft of you, it bounces back to your square.

Two-Handed Thrower: Throw a weapon with two hands as a standard action (instead of a full round) and add 1.5 times your strength to the damage.

Hand of the Apprentice school power/Magic domain power: Throw your weapon up to 30 ft and have it return to you.

I've been messing with throwing builds (trying to build Thor, basically), and I have a vision of combining Bounding Hammer with Opening Volley, so I throw the hammer, then catch it as it comes back, move into melee and smack the same guy. It's probably not worth the feat tax, but it would be cool....

[MrSin]

Working with thrown weapons is an uphill battle. Magic items are built against it and it takes quiet a few feats.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Ultimate Equipment has two items (well, two versions on one item). Belt of Hurling. Increases Str and lets you use Str for thrown weapons. Greater version gives weapons you throw the returning property.

(As a side note: there is no Dex requirement for Point-Blank Shot or Precise Shot.)

[Finlanderboy]

I saw a guy kill the BBEG in rise of the goblin guild by using truestrike to throw his two handed sword at it.

[pH unbalanced]

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

A couple of fun tricks for throwing builds that might help:

Bounding Hammer: If you throw a hammer at someone within 20ft of you, it bounces back to your square.

I've been messing with throwing builds (trying to build Thor, basically), and I have a vision of combining Bounding Hammer with Opening Volley, so I throw the hammer, then catch it as it comes back, move into melee and smack the same guy. It's probably not worth the feat tax, but it would be cool....

My son is playing a Foehammer who has the Bounding Hammer feat. He made sure to buy the Gloves of Arrow Snaring so that he can actually catch the hammer when it comes back (twice per day).

It's not particularly powerful, but it is *wicked cool*.

[CanisDirus]

If you use one handed weapons, a Blinkback Belt might be of interest to you (Ultimate Equipment).

[Vrog Skyreaver]

the called weapon enhancement is good too....better than returning, imo, cause it's a swift action, and you can teleport it back to you regardless of whether or not someone has picked it up...

[Jiggy]

Blinkback belt seems good, but kind of demands Quickdraw.

[That Porter Kid]

If you are just going for a distance attack while using your heavy weapon look at a Flying blade. It is a great sword on a chain.... We had a magus at our shop that could hit folks 25 feet away it was pretty gross...

[MrSin]

That Porter Kid wrote:

If you are just going for a distance attack while using your heavy weapon look at a Flying blade. It is a great sword on a chain.... We had a magus at our shop that could hit folks 25 feet away it was pretty gross...

Err, this flying blade? Exotic, two-handed, Reach, Performance btw.

[Nefreet]

It's just the rules for Performance Combat that are disallowed in PFS.

The Flying Blade itself is still legal.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Jiggy wrote:

Blinkback belt seems good, but kind of demands Quickdraw.

My slayer tomahawk thrower just picked up her blink back belt and has had quick draw for a couple levels now.

[Jiggy]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Blinkback belt seems good, but kind of demands Quickdraw.

My slayer tomahawk thrower just picked up her blink back belt and has had quick draw for a couple levels now.

Then the only obstacle left is when the GM says "Do you guys have your weapons out?" you have to remember to say "No" instead of the usual "Of course!"

;)

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Yup.

[Artanthos]

Nefreet wrote:

It's just the rules for Performance Combat that are disallowed in PFS.

The Flying Blade itself is still legal.

Not for spell combat. It is a two handed weapon.

[Nefreet]

*starts a tally of all the people in this thread confusing Spellstrike with Spell Combat*

[BigNorseWolf]

Nefreet wrote:

*starts a tally of all the people in this thread confusing Spellstrike with Spell Combat*

Its the reactions between the two that bring in a flow chart.

[Snip the Shadow]

So does the Feat Two Handed Thrower cancel out the rule set forth on thrown weapons in the Core Rules? It's page 141 for those that want to read it for themselves in that book.

Two Handed Thrower is in Ultimate Combat page 123 and the descriptor for the Returning Weapon spell is also in U.C. on page 242.

So...

I read all these and still do not understand why I cannot utilize my idea. I'm not even concerned with adding a touch spell to the weapon. I just want the ability to chuck it for 30+ feet up on top of a building at a sniper, into an open window at a caster or at the evil altar when I step into the room for the final battle.

But anyway, thanks to all of you that offered advice on rules, ideas and deeper levels of your own imaginations pondering my idea. You guys rock! Reading all the comments has sent me into new directions in my research.

Snip

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Two Handed Thrower does what it says. You get 1.5 Str when you throw with two hands (instead of 1x Str you normally get with thrown weapons) and you can throw two handed as a standard action (instead of a full round action).

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Snip the Shadow wrote:

I just want the ability to chuck it for 30+ feet up on top of a building at a sniper, into an open window at a caster or at the evil altar when I step into the room for the final battle.

You can do this. If the weapon is not designed to be thrown you take a -4 penalty. If it is a light or one-handed weapon, it takes a standard action. If it is a two-handed weapon, it takes a full round action. It will have a range increment of 10ft and thrown weapons can be thrown a maximum of five increments. So using a two-handed weapon, it will take a full round action and you will have a -8 to the attack roll (-4 for improvised, -4 for the 2 additional increments).

[kinevon]

And you can mitigate some of the penalties or times needed by using feats like two-handed thrower and throw anything. With both of those, it only takes a standard action to throw, and should only have the normal distance penalties, -4 in this case for throwing out to the 3rd range increment.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

kinevon wrote:

And you can mitigate some of the penalties or times needed by using feats like two-handed thrower and throw anything. With both of those, it only takes a standard action to throw, and should only have the normal distance penalties, -4 in this case for throwing out to the 3rd range increment.

Add Far Shot to take down to -2 (half penalties for extra range increments) plus Distance Thrower to eliminate it altogether (lowers distance penalty by 2).

[Akerlof]

There's also the Raging Hurler that lets you bypass some of those feats.

There are a few levels of answers to "can it be done."

You can hurl a greataxe with no feat or build investment whatsoever. The results will be pretty underwhelming but with the chance for a spectacular success.

You can make a relatively minor investment (1-2 feats and a rage power) to do the greataxe throwing thing with fewer penalties and a bigger upside. That will still only be intermittently spectacular, but it leaves room in your build to be good at more conventional things.

You can build completely around throwing things that shouldn't be thrown: 6+ feats, a rage power or two, maybe an archetype as well. You'll make a one trick pony that's entirely focused on throwing inappropriate objects. It will make for great narrative but likely only moderate numbers. (Until you can convince the GM that the Gnomish Cavalier you just threw at a Yeti counts as charging and can make a lance attack when he hits.) You'll be mediocre at other things, although mediocre for a Barbarian with Power Attack is still generally within the expected parameters of scenario designers.

Since it seems like this is your first character, I suggest going with option one or two. You're learning the system, so the KISS principle is your friend. As you've seen, it takes a lot of knowledge of the rules to implement a creative idea like this. It also takes a lot of knowledge of how games play out to get a feel for whether a creative idea like this can be successful. I suggest you play the game a bit with a more conventional character (not totally conventional, add your own twist) and learn how it works. Then, once you know what you're getting into, go crazy.

I've seen several new players with wonderfully creative ideas for characters get very frustrated. The idea is really cool but the mechanics just aren't there to support it. So they can't be very successful at their schtick or they peter out rather quickly and feel like they're being a drag on the team as they level up. It's tough from my perspective because I want people to be invested in their characters and play what they want to play. But on the other hand, I know the mechanics of the game won't let them achieve the picture they have in their head of what they want their character to do, and I don't want them to get frustrated and stop gaming. That's why I've started suggesting people start with something conventional until they get a better feel for the game: It's conventional for a reason, it works, and there's still room for customization. And you've got all the leeway in the world for how you want to roleplay the character.