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Healer's Blessing (Su)
Water of Life (Su)
1. Would Healer's Blessing apply to cure potions made by the healer with Brew Potion?
2. Would Healer's Blessing apply to temporary potions created using Water of Life?
I'm leaning towards "No" on both of the above, but am not sure there's any place that says it definitively. I know that normally potions/scrolls/wands are made without consideration of the creator's class abilities (they use the lowest DC, wouldn't factor in Spell Focus, for example).
Thoughts?
(I did look at older threads, and it seems most seem to agree, but I couldn't see if there was any really solid rules one way or another)
I read No (but I could see a GM ruling yes) and Yes, citing 'cast a spell into a pint of water'.
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My hangup was "create a temporary potion". Technically, creating a regular potion is just "casting a spell into whatever magical things you gather to make the potion" (all potions require the brewer to expend the spell when creating).
Really the power is no different except you can ignore the material cost, it's just water, and it's temporary.
Assistant Software Developer
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I read No (but I could see a GM ruling yes) and Yes, citing 'cast a spell into a pint of water'.
Yeah, that's what I read too. Also, related:
3) Is it the intention that Water of Life allows you to exceed the normal spell level maximums for Brew Potion?
My reading is yes but I have doubts. It makes it a much smaller mythic ability that way.
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I think 3 is an easier answer:
"The spell must be a valid choice for the Brew Potion feat and have a spell level no higher than your tier."
If the spell was higher than 4th level, then it would no longer be a valid choice for Brew Potion.
Honestly it feels like the main benefit of this power is the first bit: all potions you drink are maximized. That's pretty huge. The other bit, free temp potions whenever, just is a way to make all spells with a variable you want to cast on yourself be maximized, so long as you have some water around.
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Assistant Software Developer
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I think 3 is an easier answer:
"The spell must be a valid choice for the Brew Potion feat and have a spell level no higher than your tier."If the spell was higher than 4th level, then it would no longer be a valid choice for Brew Potion.
Honestly it feels like the main benefit of this power is the first bit: all potions you drink are maximized. That's pretty huge. The other bit, free temp potions whenever, just is a way to make all spells with a variable you want to cast on yourself be maximized, so long as you have some water around.
Or hand off to someone else. I think being able to make vials of bears endurance for the party to use when they feel they might best be used isn't a bad deal either. Also having a couple of cure serious potions at hand from just casting at higher levels could be worthwhile. Especially if you can make them right before you do prayers. Help you push a few of your unused spells have some use for the rest of the day. That's seems more mythic.
1. Would Healer's Blessing apply to cure potions made by the healer with Brew Potion?
2. Would Healer's Blessing apply to temporary potions created using Water of Life?
About Healer's Blessing, no metamagic or ability is applied to crafted items, the spell is just the requeriment, the catalyst, you still must follow the normal formula (spell level * caster level).
Another example, a sorcerer with weapon specialization (ranged touch) cant make ranged touch spell wands that deal +2 damage.
On the other hand, i would allow the emporered potions as long as you increased the spell level accordingly. Just as if you had the feat when preparing/casting the spell.
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shadowkras: I made the exact same call in our own game, at least until I heard a good argument otherwise. My ruling was that healer's blessing didn't apply to any potion, whether perma (brew potion) or temp (water of life). That said, I'd be okay with it serving as the Empower Spell feat when it came to making potions in either event, keeping in mind the spell level +2.
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About Healer's Blessing, no metamagic or ability is applied to crafted items, the spell is just the requeriment, the catalyst, you still must follow the normal formula (spell level * caster level).
Magic Item Creation specifically says you can use Metamagic Feats in conjunction with crafting. There are some cases where you are not reproducing the spell effects in the same way, but potions and scrolls in particular are susceptible to metamagic.
Another example, a sorcerer with weapon specialization (ranged touch) cant make ranged touch spell wands that deal +2 damage.
Why not? The source of the ranged touch attack is not relevant to the fact you are making a ranged touch attack, which that character specialized in.
On the other hand, i would allow the emporered potions as long as you increased the spell level accordingly. Just as if you had the feat when preparing/casting the spell.
I would allow it, too, because...those are the rules. =D Note that if you have ways to reduce the cost of metamagic, then you could be making very effective potions.
In the end, there is nothing in the wording to prevent the combination of those effects.
Here's why I think that:
all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered
The spell receives the benefits of Empower.
Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal
Metamagic feats do impact crafting.
Brew Potion does not remove the impact of metamagic feats which Item Creation says you may use.The targeted liquid becomes a potion of that spell.
The language here indicates that it becomes a potion of the spell you just cast, which must be a valid spell to use with Brew Potion. Note that your temporary potion expires in 1-3 hours. Not enough time to rest and recover the spell slots used, which means it basically allows you to heal without using your own actions during the event.
Certainly there is enough room that if you want to run it at your table in some other way, feel free.
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A few points:
1. Yes, you can apply metamagic feats to crafting, but you typically pay higher costs when doing so. The question here is if a cleric could use their Healer's Blessing ability to auto-empower all cure potions they make for free, with no cost. I have no issue with them using the ability to make an empowered CLW potion for a 3rd-level cost, or using Water of Life as if it were a 3rd level potion.
2. His point isn't that a sorcerer with weapon specialization would get his own bonus when using the wand. He's saying that if that sorcerer made a wand, the weapon specialization bonus wouldn't persist for other users. If a different wizard comes along and picks it up, one without weapon spec, he won't get that +2 the sorcerer had (even though the sorcerer made it).
3. Healer's Blessing, in the end, says that all "spells" become empowered. Not anything that happens to use a cure spell as a focus. If I said yes to this, then I'd also be saying yes to a cleric with this ability and Craft Wand spending 375 gp and making a wand of empowered cure light wounds. In the end, if you want empower-like effects, you need to pay for them to put them into items (or with Water of Life, at least treat it as the higher level spell that it's mimicking). Healer's Blessing only affects spells as they are cast, it says nothing about magic items. Honestly, allowing it to count as Empower Spell for purposes of crafting is fairly generous I think.
4. As Water of Life seems to follow the potion rules (you cast a spell as part of the "crafting", it has the same limits with spell level as Brew Potion, etc.), I want to make sure my ruling is the same. Whatever I rule for Healer's Blessing and Brew Potion, I'd rule the same with Water of Life.
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Potions, Scrolls, and Wands use caster level to determine effects. Nothing I said implies you do not have to pay that cost. Certain build choices may reduce or increase that cost though. I think it was shadowkras who pointed out that you still have to use the effective spell level when determining cost. "As if" means the bonus and penalties, including effective spell level adjustments.
per 2) - Yeah I read that too quickly. The awkward grammar got me. Good catch. However, a character with Maximize can create a potion or scroll that is maximized if they can meet the other qualifications. Certainly some metamagic is not applicable to items, like Quicken.
Per 3) Since you can create items using metamagic feats, your potions that are created from a spell cast "As if" have that effect and the potion cost is adjusted. You can create an empowered maximized curative if you can meet the other requirements for crafting.
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Right, it sounds like we agree, I think. I'm totally fine with a cleric with Healer's Blessing making an empowered CLW potion (whether through Brew Potion or Water of Life) so long as it's treated like a 3rd level spell with CL 5. I just wasn't okay signing off on it being treated like a 1st level potion, which was my original query.
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Right, it sounds like we agree, I think. I'm totally fine with a cleric with Healer's Blessing making an empowered CLW potion (whether through Brew Potion or Water of Life) so long as it's treated like a 3rd level spell with CL 5. I just wasn't okay signing off on it being treated like a 1st level potion, which was my original query.
If you had a feat to reduce the spell level cost of metamagic effects, I think it is reasonable to allow them to reduce that. If you can increase the spell level, effects which reduce it should be considered as well.
A neat trick is using the potions in conjunction with amazing initiative to get around the no spell casting rule.