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Sometime last year, I decided to try out an experiment: I would run a Pathfinder game for my mother. How this came about is a bit of a long story...suffice it to say that she had been tagging along to some of my games previously and expressed some curiosity about what was going on.
The game started out with two college friends of mine (let's call them Tom and Carl), and Carl's wife (let's call her Wendy) joining my mom (we'll call her Jen) playing through The Dragon's Demand. I wanted the new players to get into the sense of freedom you get with tabletop gaming, so I didn't make any real class suggestions based on their aptitude; instead, we just asked what kind of characters they wanted. So we ended up with:
Tom, the Musketeer Gunslinger
Carl, the Witch
Wendy, the Bard
Jen, the Druid
Bob, Jen's animal companion (a wolf)
Almost immediately, Tom bailed on us, so for the early parts of the adventure they were a party of 3, with no frontline (aside from Bob) and no one capable of finding or disabling traps. As you might recall, Hunclay's house is full of traps, as is the Kobold lair. Jen was loathe to put Bob in danger, despite him having better stats than most of the party at the early levels. They managed to survive, disabling Hunclay's traps via the time-honored tradition of having Carl's Witch walk into them face-first. Jen and Wendy seemed happy to meet up every week, but were also rather distracted, and would often miss important game information. Jen, in particular, would then complain loudly when this led her into trouble, or quibble about the rules when they weren't going her way. If you've never been rules-lawyered by your own mother, I highly recommend it; there's no experience like it.
Around this time they realized that Hunclay's mansion was probably not the first place they should go, so instead they pursued the Kobold lair, where they were doing just fine until the entire party fell into a pit trap. Well, the entire party except for Bob, who managed to make his reflex save. At this point a new player, also experienced, joined the party.
This was Mike, the Ranger/Barbarian.
Mike kindly fished them out of the pit and acted as their tank for the duration of the game. He would often tease Jen about her wolf, jokingly encouraging her to send him into danger.
With Mike around, I found that I didn't need to prompt them as often with tactical advice, which was nice. If you're wondering why I was doing this in the first place rather than just watching them die repeatedly...I don't think that's an effective way to encourage new players. They should, at the very least, understand *why* they're failing in combat. By trying to teach Jen how to effectively make decisions about healing, I hoped to get her more engaged in the game. Wendy, being a Bard, was still having trouble though, as her chosen spell list was often ineffective in battle, and much of her Bard's class abilities were only useful outside of combat.
Wendy was actually the source of most of their successful Knowledge checks (thanks to Bardic Knowledge and that trait that lets you take 10 once per day), but due to a mild language barrier she wasn't very engaged with the plot of the game and was mostly rolling at Carl's prompting.
Jen's ignorance of genre conventions made for some great roleplaying though, as her elven Druid turned out to be quite the mercenary, suggesting that the group squeeze the baroness for more money, keep more of the loot from Hunclay's estate, and even trying to press-gang the villagers they rescued from the Kobold cave (who were in pretty bad shape) into helping the group clear out the rest of the Kobolds. Her lack of attention to details also led to some funny moments, such as when she insisted on going to Tula's tomb as soon as she heard that there was treasure there, then reacted with shock when they were inside and she realized that they were inside of a tomb (and being attacked by undead).
Tula's Tomb was the group's first real combat test, as the Wraith gave them a lot of trouble. Few of them had offensive spells, and only Mike had an attack bonus high enough to make good use of their magical weapons. Why Carl and Mike, who knew better, went into a tomb without Holy Water is a question I still ask myself.
The end came soon therafter, when the group entered the Monastery. They recognized the arrow slits and decided not to use the front entrance, instead choosing to hop the fence (easy as pie when you have a flying Witch and some rope) and explore the grounds. They were immediately spotted by the Alchemist in the bell tower, and noticing an indoor courtyard with a bucket of berries, they smashed the window and went inside to claim them. The Dragon's press-ganged Druid shows up and gives them all of the exposition they need, and they begin exploring the monastery, knowing that their enemies are aware of their presence.
Well, as they make their way through the hallways, they check out the Assembly hall, and while they find nothing, Mike decides to listen at the stairwell. Well, a giant-ass Man/Bat aberration is going to make some noise on the floor above you, so naturally he hears and decides to investigate. The rest of the group, who hadn't been paying attention, decide to follow, and the combat that followed was painful for everyone involved.
Everyone beat the creature in initiative except for Mike, who was right in front of the damn thing. Starting with Carl, they all decide to run past Mike (through the creature's threatened area) so that they won't be bunched up in the stairway. Carl goes down immediately from an AoO, but encourages Jen and Wendy to follow suit, reasoning that he set off the creature's only AoO.
As you may know, the creature in question has Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 18. While he didn't one-shot Wendy and Jen, they certainly got hurt, and Mike went down to a full-attack before he ever got a chance to do damage. Jen and Wendy managed to partially revive Carl, who got off two Maximized Lightning Bolts, with Bob the wolf bravely sacrificing himself to protect Carl. Carl died not too long after that, as did Wendy, who was actually critted. Jen came close to killing the creature with damage over time (using a Flaming Sphere) but in the end she died as well.
So what did I learn?
1. Bard and Druid are pretty terrible classes for new players. They have hybrid roles and a lot of possibilities, and if you don't have a firm grasp of the rules you won't be able to make effective use out of them. Ditto for most spellcasting classes, though I suspect that Sorcerer/Oracle might be an exception.
2. While running for experienced players may have trained you out of "railroading" players, you may want to reconsider doing so when the alternative is watching a poorly-optimized 5th level party take on a CR 8. Having said that, I am confident that experienced players would have reduced that CR 8 to a fine paste within 3-4 rounds.
3. Pathfinder needs large-print character sheets. The inability to read her own character sheet made the game much more troublesome for Jen, and contributed to a lack of engagement as she was constantly having to rely on other players to read her spell list and update her sheet.
4. The difficulty curve of the Dragon's Demand takes a serious turn around 4th-5th level. DR is one thing, but Incorporeal Undead vs a party with no Ghost Touch is rough times. Poor Mike needed a ton of restoration after the tombs.
5. You may think that you're doing new players a favor by not trying to influence their build decisions, but this game has a learning curve, and it's better for them to play something that you know will be fun for them, rather than something that they think will sound cool. Fighters/Rangers/Paladins are all fun, they hit often, and are very survivable.
In the end, the group decided that they'd rather try new characters in a new campaign (The Mummy's Mask) than make new characters and push through Dragon's Demand. That's no knock on the module; I honestly think it's a great intro to the game, and one of the best adventures I've seen from Paizo.
Speaking of aids that would be helpful to players with vision problems...some Spell Cards would be incredibly helpful.
Well, that depends. I think new players can work in skill-heavy classes like Rogue as well, provided that's a role they're comfortable with. "Wendy" was a little less attentive, and had a slight language barrier, so the whole social side of being a Bard wasn't working that well for her, and in combat trying to be an effective Bard requires a fairly advanced level of game knowledge.
And for what it's worth, I think a sword 'n board build that makes use of Shield Slam would be a nice combo of simple and "fun" (tripping foes, controlling enemy movement).
Whoops, put this in the wrong forum. Flagging; this should be in Pathfinder RPG General Discussion, not Paizo Publishing General
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Speaking of aids that would be helpful to players with vision problems...some Spell Cards would be incredibly helpful.
Progressive bifocals, ones that scale up pretty high. You can buy some non-prescription ones fairly cheap over the counter.
Pathfinder isn't the only game around w/ really fine print. I'd be lost without them.
Point 1: Agreed.
Point 2: Agreed.
Point 3: Most folks eventually design their own. Of course, large print and open spaces make the character sheet more of a... character pamphlet.
Point 4: Force effects are a work-around, but you can't count on every group having shield and magic missile. I honestly feel the EL for incorporeal stat-draining creatures should increase more steeply than other ELs.
Point 5: I'd say the cavalier has the edge over the paladin for "learning to play," and rangers start getting complicated fairly quickly. I'd agree that the fighter, rogue and even sorcerer have the edge when it comes to quick-to-learn. (Fighter/rogue is a fun way to show how multiclassing works and is still not overwhelming: and some would say it's more effective than either class by itself.)
Incorporeal Undead have been a problem in regular games that I've run as well, so I'm inclined to agree with you. I think an EL boost would be in order, and if it's not already official that they take full damage from positive energy, they certainly should.
Rangers ramp up in complexity, and in ways that I think are helpful in teaching the system. The player gets rewarded to remembering to think about what *type* of creature they're fighting ("hey! Undead are my favored enemy!") and what kind of locale they are in. I hadn't thought about Cavaliers though; that's a good idea.
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When everyone but bob fell in the pit did they have a lassie moment? What's that boy... adventurers fell down the well?
Sorry couldn't help It.
Prior to his (and everyone else's) untimely death, I used to joke with Mike and Carl that Bob was actually the protagonist of the story, and the rest of them were just supporting cast.
That wolf had better climb checks and combat survivability than most of the party.
Some good insights there - for any adventure a GM runs as well as the module in question. I have to admit that running Dragon's Demand with new players does seem a bit a daunting.
Have you considered maybe: Hollow's Last Hope? It's a good intro module (free btw) and can lead to at least four more modules around Falcon's Hollow where it is set. The only hang up is that they were originally 3.5 based when they were released.
Sorry if I am sidetracking your original point.
Sometime last year, I decided to try out an experiment: I would run a Pathfinder game for my mother. How this came about is a bit of a long story...suffice it to say that she had been tagging along to some of my games previously and expressed some curiosity about what was going on.
Cool, I realize there were challenges, but how did she actually like the game? Obviously she must have enjoyed it, to want to continue, but I'd love to hear her actual take on it. Most people who game started younger, or at least were taught by their peers. Teaching a parent, vs the other way around sounds like a really interesting experience. I wonder if you cant get her to give a first hand impression of the experience.
1. Bard and Druid are pretty terrible classes for new players. They have hybrid roles and a lot of possibilities, and if you don't have a firm grasp of the rules you won't be able to make effective use out of them. Ditto for most spellcasting classes, though I suspect that Sorcerer/Oracle might be an exception.
I've had alot of success with new players and sorcerors, also with clerics. I actually find bards can be good as long as the person is happy with a support role. Buffing is really easy on new players, and if you guide them with spell selection, it can work well. If they try to be a fighter type, that ofcourse gets difficult, and was likely made worse by your groups lack of a front liner for a while.
2. While running for experienced players may have trained you out of "railroading" players, you may want to reconsider doing so when the alternative is watching a poorly-optimized 5th level party take on a CR 8. Having said that, I am confident that experienced players would have reduced that CR 8 to a fine paste within 3-4 rounds.
Yea in the end, there is a balance in every group between railroading and leaving room for them to explore. New players generally need more guidance.
3. Pathfinder needs large-print character sheets. The inability to read her own character sheet made the game much more troublesome for Jen, and contributed to a lack of engagement as she was constantly having to rely on other players to read her spell list and update her sheet.
Use the spellcards at theGM.org. Seriously, everyone should use these. You also can use the character sheet from the begginer box (blank one is available for download) which has a much easier to read and more pleasing font, with some basic guidance on the sheet.
4. The difficulty curve of the Dragon's Demand takes a serious turn around 4th-5th level. DR is one thing, but Incorporeal Undead vs a party with no Ghost Touch is rough times. Poor Mike needed a ton of restoration after the tombs.
Well its not a begginer adventure. Experienced gamers know how early incorporial enemies can turn up, you should have offered a bit more guidance in that area for new player.
5. You may think that you're doing new players a favor by not trying to influence their build decisions, but this game has a learning curve, and it's better for them to play something that you know will be fun for them, rather than something that they think will sound cool. Fighters/Rangers/Paladins are all fun, they hit often, and are very survivable.
I dont think you should influence their CONCEPT choices, but you ABSOLUTELY should influence their build. By all means find out what they want to play, then make it happen. The game is WAY too complex for new players to go it alone the vast majority of the time. You really should be taking input from them on what they want to do, and then guiding their choices accordingly. After a while you can open it up more to their own exploration of the rules, but certainly for the first few levels you should take a firm hand in their mechanical choices to help them make ones that will actually do the things they want their characters to be able to do.
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I think it's important that new players don't get told not to play casters because that would be too difficult. So I'm glad that the sorcerer exists; it's definitely an easier first PC than a wizard.
I think druids can be good starting characters IF you take the time to handhold the player through CharGen, explaining what everything does. They're a decently powerful class, with complexity increasing every level instead of everything at once.
I think it's important that new players don't get told not to play casters because that would be too difficult. So I'm glad that the sorcerer exists; it's definitely an easier first PC than a wizard.
I think druids can be good starting characters IF you take the time to handhold the player through CharGen, explaining what everything does. They're a decently powerful class, with complexity increasing every level instead of everything at once.
I tried this, and talked to her about the Druid's abilities, and it was still something of an issue. I think that for someone who is just learning the basic combat system and such, having to also learn about the optimal selection of spells for a given scenario and how to use them is asking a bit much.
Well its not a begginer adventure. Experienced gamers know how early incorporial enemies can turn up, you should have offered a bit more guidance in that area for new player.
Half the party at that point was experienced; it was just carelessness that led to them getting surprised like that. They came through it reasonably well, but the group's seams were starting to show. The Bard would often spend combat doing nothing besides maintaining Inspire Courage, and I could tell she was getting bored because her build was limited. She generally just took Carl's advice, and the results were eventually fatal.
Use the spellcards at theGM.org. Seriously, everyone should use these. You also can use the character sheet from the begginer box (blank one is available for download) which has a much easier to read and more pleasing font, with some basic guidance on the sheet.
Thanks for the tip! I'm definitely going to be using these in the future.
I've had alot of success with new players and sorcerors, also with clerics. I actually find bards can be good as long as the person is happy with a support role. Buffing is really easy on new players, and if you guide them with spell selection, it can work well. If they try to be a fighter type, that ofcourse gets difficult, and was likely made worse by your groups lack of a front liner for a while.
I'd rather have a new player up front and active...having played a Cleric before when I was the "new" member of a group after being away from the game for a while, it's nice to be useful, but you get way too much backseat-gaming from other party members who want healing, and it gets rather dull being in the pure support role.
3. Pathfinder needs large-print character sheets.
Interesting observations, but I only have a response to this one in particular.
I've taught my players to all run characters off of standard statblocks. Those can be printed at any point size.
Now, if I were starting with never-played-before folks, I'd probably sit with them and build a character using a standard character sheet but then at the end show them how to transcribe "just the good bits" onto a statblock. Visually they'd get to see "look, see, Will save comes from a bunch of stuff. You don't really need to memorize all of that right now." During play, if something like Wisdom damage happens, as a DM remind the new player "remember how we ignored a lot of that A + B + C stuff? Well, for now what you need to know is that your Will save and some skills just went down." Honestly, given about as much repetition as reminding them "flanking gives +2 to attacks", they'll start to remember the behind-the-scenes stuff.
My plan for the next game is that I bought her a small, cheap journal and we're writing up her character (in large print) there.
My plan for the next game is that I bought her a small, cheap journal and we're writing up her character (in large print) there.
Have you seen Ravingdork's Pathfinder Character Sheet Template? I've found myself using his template to create all my characters recently. I used to use Hero Labs, but their sheet is just way too big and has way too much extra crap on it. RD's sheet lets me trim down what used to be 5-6 page character sheets to just a double sided sheet.
Speaking of aids that would be helpful to players with vision problems...some Spell Cards would be incredibly helpful.
Spell Cards are a nice resource. For my Druid, I just spend a little time copying my available spells from the PRD into a Word Document. I can resize the font to whatever I want and I have my own Druid only spellbook arranged alphabetically. It's easier than trying to flip through the Core Rulebook and the APG.
I did the same for the Bard that I played, but for him it was easier, I only needed the spells known, not the whole list.
I will continue to do this for any spellcasting character that I play. It's just SO much easier at the table.