Fair enough, you made a good point with the PFE; though the example is still poorly thought out.
In addition, good luck getting an Angel to try and kill Paladins who are in their service. You overlooked something:
Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you ever roll a natural 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell's effect and can escape or attack you.Two small issues. Firstly it does not apply to creatures summoned by summon monster sppells. Now arguably they are not "really there" and simply return to the outer planes when the spell ends or they are killed but I imagine it would still give some paladins or clerics pause for concern.
Secondly if you are engaged in the planar binding of good aligned outsiders then obviously you don't offer them deals where it is obvious that you are sending them to slaughter paladins. You make them agree to do things like guard your sanctum and protect your facility from any and all interlopers to the best of their ability including the use of lethal force. Also it doesn't prevent you from bombarding them with charm monster spells while they are trapped until such time as you succeed shifting their attitude to friendly at which point you can very easily just use diplomacy to get them to agree to similar terms.
Now you see another problem, which the bolded part points out. If you're summoning good-aligned Angels, you're having to call another Angel from another plane, which said summoned good-aligned Angels aren't going to tolerate, ergo it leads to mutiny. I will say that if the Angels being called or summoned are worth their weight, they are immune to any magical attempts to force them to like or agree to the caller's/summoner's petty "demands," meaning the summon won't do them any good.
I'll also point out that if good-aligned Angels are going to be called by some Evil jerkoff, he's not going to be too happy about it, nor would he be too willing to agree to anything said jerkoff spouts at him to be freed. At best, I figure the Planar Binding and Summoning would function something like this.
At the very least, you're asking them to keep interlopers, who are most likely good-aligned, out of an organization which basically comes out and says "Yup, we're bad guys," which I figure imposes a +6 to their check, if not makes them outright say "No, I will never support you, nor your malevolent schemes from your enterprise of evil. I would sooner die, to keep those whom wish to stop your plan and tarnished by your heinous trickery, than to be a slave to your vile demands."
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Now you see another problem, which the bolded part points out. If you're summoning good-aligned Angels, you're having to call another Angel from another plane, which said summoned good-aligned Angels aren't going to tolerate, ergo it leads to mutiny. I will say that if the Angels being called or summoned are worth their weight, they are immune to any magical attempts to force them to like or agree to the caller's/summoner's petty "demands," meaning the summon won't do them any good. See what I did thar?I'll also point out that if good-aligned Angels are going to be called by some Evil jerkoff, he's not going to be too happy about it, nor would he be too willing to agree to anything said jerkoff spouts at him to be freed. At best, I figure the Planar Binding and Summoning would function something like this.
At the very least, you're asking them to keep interlopers, who are most likely good-aligned, out of an organization which basically comes out and says "Yup, we're bad guys," which I figure imposes a +6 to their check, if not makes them outright say "No, I will never support you, nor your malevolent schemes from your enterprise of evil. I would sooner die, to keep those whom wish to stop your plan and tarnished by your heinous trickery, than to be a slave to your vile demands."
The usual planar binding shanigans: Ranged Bestow Curse, Geas (walk past the barrier), etc.
They keep being zapped and weakened until they submit to you and your order or die, forever and always.Repeat till one doesn't have a death wish.
You are evil. It isn't like you care if they live. But having an army of angels to fight the PCs/heroes? Hilarious.
Angels don't have anything to be afraid of, certainly not death, since they're Celestials who simply get thrown back to their usual plane when they "die," and can't come back to the other planes. They're also not completely stupid so as to not tell their Angel buddies "Yeah, there are these a**hole cultists trying to turn us against our mortal brethren, we should probably do something about it." Deity forbid Angels having an Intelligence higher than 8 or don't have a Lawful Stupid alignment.
That plan would make sense if you summoned something that didn't have ties to another plane and wasn't already something that is immortal, and can only be temporarily banished from the mortal plane upon "dying" there, but the shenanigans aren't really going to accomplish anything when it comes to Angels. Especially given their boatload of resistances and immunities.
This is like trying to Planar Bind a Demon to command it to be a good Samaritan for a town or city bustling with innocent souls for it to collect for its master. Fat chance it's going to agree, or care about the kinds of shenanigans you're gonna throw at it. And if it dies? It'll tell its Demon buddies "Yup, these stupid do-gooders are trying to make us kiss their feet. I say we make an example out of these hippies, showing that Demons don't bow to no pansy humans!"
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Angels don't have anything to be afraid of, certainly not death, since they're Celestials who simply get thrown back to their usual plane when they "die," and can't come back to the other planes.
This is actually not how it works in Pathfinder. Outsiders who are brought with Planar Binding or a similar spell and die, actually die. Check the rules if you don't believe me.
What you say was true in Planescape (and thus 2E), and I believe in 3.0 and 3.5...but isn't in Pathfinder. Largely, from a metagame perspective, so you can feel a sense of accomplishment when slaying a demon, and so you can loot it's corpse, but it's still true for everything.
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Personally, I never really viewed any of the summons spells to actually be like a traditional conjuring.
The spell creates a generic materialistic version of that creature for rules purposes for a very short duration. The creature does exactly what you say, it has no opinions, no morals, its really just a semi physical manifestation; you tell the archon to be bad, he's bad. You tell the devil to go help some children; he does.. It can't teleport or move dimensionally. Really, a level 1 pulling a creature through the planes just seems a bit overpowered.
If you gave the creature an item, and he kept it until the spells duration, could you locate that exact fiendish creature on some alternate plane? I'd think not.
Planar allies and calling spells are very different...and should be treated as such. Having names and doing that stuff should have discriptors. Basic summons are kinda meh.
IMHO
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Personally, I never really viewed any of the summons spells to actually be like a traditional conjuring.
The spell creates a generic materialistic version of that creature for rules purposes for a very short duration. The creature does exactly what you say, it has no opinions, no morals, its really just a semi physical manifestation; you tell the archon to be bad, he's bad. You tell the devil to go help some children; he does.. It can't teleport or move dimensionally. Really, a level 1 pulling a creature through the planes just seems a bit overpowered.
If you gave the creature an item, and he kept it until the spells duration, could you locate that exact fiendish creature on some alternate plane? I'd think not.
Planar allies and calling spells are very different...and should be treated as such. Having names and doing that stuff should have discriptors. Basic summons are kinda meh.
IMHO
Actually...you're almost right. See here.
The big part where you're a bit incorrect is that the creatures aren't just materialistic...they have mental stats, and alignment. They aren't real, but they act like the real creatures they duplicate within the limits of the spell. But...as I said in my first post, those are some pretty strict limits, strict enough that I wouldn't call summoning a pseudo-fiend under them inherently an Evil act.
Though, again, it is per RAW.
Angels don't have anything to be afraid of, certainly not death, since they're Celestials who simply get thrown back to their usual plane when they "die," and can't come back to the other planes.This is actually not how it works in Pathfinder. Outsiders who are brought with Planar Binding or a similar spell and die, actually die. Check the rules if you don't believe me.
What you say was true in Planescape (and thus 2E), and I believe in 3.0 and 3.5...but isn't in Pathfinder. Largely, from a metagame perspective, so you can feel a sense of accomplishment when slaying a demon, and so you can loot it's corpse, but it's still true for everything.
Could you show me a link where it says such things? I wouldn't know where exactly to look.
Hmmm. So that brings up an interesting question: if you call and bind, say, an imp, are you getting one at random or is your character assumed to know the identity of the specific imp and it's just hand-waved. If so, are extra-dimensional identities a commodity to trade between spellcasters? Are there books of common entities, with lists of services they're willing to provide and what they prefer to be paid with?
Wouldn't that also make it irresponsible for a good character to call a good outsider for combat, since they could potentially get killed off permanently?
Hmmm. So that brings up an interesting question: if you call and bind, say, an imp, are you getting one at random or is your character assumed to know the identity of the specific imp and it's just hand-waved. If so, are extra-dimensional identities a commodity to trade between spellcasters? Are there books of common entities, with lists of services they're willing to provide and what they prefer to be paid with?
Wouldn't that also make it irresponsible for a good character to call a good outsider for combat, since they could potentially get killed off permanently?
Well, in the cast of Planar Ally: they are a soldier for good so it is their job. Your god sent them.
Planar Binding? Maybe Irresponsible.
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If you do use the core rules on killing called outsiders, it creates some oddities in the world. Most prominently, the simplest and safest way to kill an enemy outsider is to spend a minute buffing your party, call the outsider in a remote* location, then kill it.
Calling particular creatures with Planar binding is tricky, since you need to know their name (something most Outsiders guard for this very reason).
And it officially works that way in Golarion, as well as the core rules. I believe it's been mentioned in a few books, and I know James Jacobs has mentioned it a few times online...and as creative director, his opinion tends to be controlling on Golarion canon.
Well, I do intend to use summoning VERY leniently (I'm an enchanter [manipulator], not a conjurer), and I plan to consider summoning demons a last resort rather than first option.
Since you plan it to be a rarity, I'd just say be careful and don't worry about it. I'd also add, get your bluff and diplomacy up and convince the evil critters they are helping you to accomplish evil, malconvoker style.
Demon: You want me to save a bunch of rugrats in an orphanage?
Caster (Bluff): Oh yes. My divinations reveal that one of them will use fear to rise to power and begin purges of elves, half elves, and gnomes, creating glorious chaos... However, I'm not quite certain which one, so... do save them all. *salutes* For Darkest Night!
Demon: *quickly returns salute* Yes, my lord!
get your bluff and diplomacy up and convince the evil critters they are helping you to accomplish evil, malconvoker style.
Demon: You want me to save a bunch of rugrats in an orphanage?
Caster (Bluff): Oh yes. My divinations reveal that one of them will use fear to rise to power and begin purges of elves, half elves, and gnomes, creating glorious chaos... However, I'm not quite certain which one, so... do save them all. *salutes* For Darkest Night!
Demon: *quickly returns salute* Yes, my lord!
Have to say, I really like the scoundrel take on it.
Anyway, using Demons. Spells that have evil keywords are so because they're somehow related to evil power, or obvious evil practice. When a character uses magic, they are expending personal power, in spell slots, so there is a form of connection between their self, and the evil power, which lets some of it into you.
Alternatively, they are performing an evil act, if the spell isn't evil for any metaphysical reason.
Next, consider the nature of the four alignment components, and neutrality.
Law, Chaos, and Evil could be considered 'infectious forces'. Exposure to them 'puts' change in you. These forces do not care about your intent, or goals; they are forces beyond even a god's monopolizing, and will change you, like a man touching a radioactive compound.
However, good is not like these infectious elements: Good cares about you. It's good's nature to care about your intent.
The first type's actions are like being poisoned: you suffer because something affected you, regardless of your choices.
Good actions are like CHOOSING to take medicine: they heal you. But, if the intention isn't there, good can't help you. You're immune to the cure.
So, if you summon a demon, to fight other demons? You've brought evil into the world, and stained a part of your soul, in order to perform a good act. But, was there any other way around it, even if Sub optimal? In this case, obviously so: summon a different monster.
The character consciously chose evil, when an alternative existed.
Good acts aren't necessarily the tactically right choice,but they are supposed to be the spiritually right choice.
If your goal is to maximize your chance at survival, it's neutrality. If it's at the cost of the safety of your soul, it's evil. An evil act performed against yourself.
Well, I do intend to use summoning VERY leniently (I'm an enchanter [manipulator], not a conjurer), and I plan to consider summoning demons a last resort rather than first option.Since you plan it to be a rarity, I'd just say be careful and don't worry about it. I'd also add, get your bluff and diplomacy up and convince the evil critters they are helping you to accomplish evil, malconvoker style.
Demon: You want me to save a bunch of rugrats in an orphanage?
Caster (Bluff): Oh yes. My divinations reveal that one of them will use fear to rise to power and begin purges of elves, half elves, and gnomes, creating glorious chaos... However, I'm not quite certain which one, so... do save them all. *salutes* For Darkest Night!
Demon: *quickly returns salute* Yes, my lord!
Bluff at +15 at first level, with the enchanting smile only going up from there :)
Diplomacy isn't quite that hot with a 'mere' +7 at first level, with intimidate coming in at +11, once again at 1st level.
In other words, I should be good for getting Demons on side.
It depends a lot on metaphysical information we don't have.
I agree with you, the morality of [Evil] or [Good] summoning depends a lot on factors unenumerated by the core rules.
Here are a few reasons it might be evil.
I will Devil's Advocate counter with a few opposite reasons it might be not evil.
Let's Make a Deal:
Most mythological summoning requires some sort of deal with the creature before or afterwards. That isn't explicitly the case in Pathfinder, outside of the planar ally spells.
Explicitly a deal in planar binding but not with summons, so deal making morality issues apply to binding but not to summons which operate differently.
But there's a factor buried here. Summon Monster I is obviously enough to bring a being across the planes to you, so why do some creatures require Summon Monster IX?
Maybe it's not that they can't respond to a Summon Monster I, it's that their going rate is a 9th-level spell slot. We don't know what role those spell slots play in their lifecycle, but giving demons power seems like a bad idea.
We know it is not a rate you can negotiate at all. It more plausibly is simply what power is needed to grab and force to your will an outsider of a certain power level, or to create a magical "reflection" of their Platonic ideal archetype (this description would work if only they had the creation instead of summoning conjuration descriptor).
Frayed Around the Edges:
So, you're casting these spells that pull something from the Abyss into the world for a few rounds, then send it back.It's entirely possible it brings Abyssal energy with it or the spell draws that area closer to the Abyss. Either of these is problematic. Maybe with enough summoning, tears will begin to open, allowing demons to pass through on their own.
On the other hand, summoning something from the Heavens would do the opposite, spreading law and good.
Possibly taking evil outsiders who by their nature are generally up to chaotic evil out of their natural environment and away from their crusade against the whole of creation to do the summoner's work instead.
Is summoning actually diluting the Abyss and weakening it by yanking some of it out? Is summoning out evils actually an act of attacking and weakening the abyss?
It is entirely possible that summoning celestials is actually taking them away from their pure good works and ripping apart little bits of Heaven.
Save the heavens, don't summon angels.
Lingering Taint:
On a more personal level, using the spells might require the caster channel energy from that plane through themselves, leaving a mark on them.Even if summoning demons isn't morally incorrect, that residue might make you detect as evil and even weigh your soul down for purposes of what afterlife you're sent to.
This opens the interesting question of people trying to cheat the system by summoning good outsiders, which I feel is a feature, but others might think is a bug. The good outsiders certainly might not appreciate it.
It explicitly does mark you temporarily, the evil descriptor spells detect as evil under the detect evil spell and leave a lingering aura after they are cast
Lingering Aura: An evil aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a creature or magic item). If detect evil is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:
This is temporary though and there is nothing saying it also weighs down or impacts their soul.
If the summons actually weakens the abyss then this temporary aura is like getting dirty from cleaning up something dirty. Jobs that get you dirty are not immoral just because they get you dirty.
In The Mirror:
If a good wizard and an evil wizard both summon a dire rat, one is celestial and one is fiendish. The dire rat also matches their alignment. They have no choice in this, it's just the way it is.The summonings are, in some way, a reflection of the caster's life and beliefs. What does it say about the caster when that reflection is a dretch or lemure?
The dretch and the lemure are not reflections.
The summoning of certain outsider animals is a reflection. The summoning of already aligned type outsiders is explicitly not a reflection. The good and the bad conjuror can each equally summon an angel or a demon and put either of them to whatever purpose they choose.
Combat Experience:
Setting aside the mechanical consideration of XP for a moment, responding to summons would be a great way for outsiders to train for battle. You show up, often immediately into a fight, and if you die, it's only for 24 hours.Given the choice between training the legions of Hell and the choruses of Heaven, the moral choice is pretty clear.
1 So who do you want to train into believing that carelessness in combat is unimportant because if they die it is only for 24 hours?
2 Combat contains lots of risk of pain and injury and even temporary death, would you rather inflict this on elementally bad guys or elementally good guys given the choice?
3 Who would you prefer to send out to deliberately trigger a trap and suck up the likely injury?
4 Morally would you rather temporarily impress into involuntary slavery a cosmically innocent good guy to serve you in whatever way you desire for a couple of rounds or a bad guy if given the choice?
If summoning is a negative for the summoned being then given a choice between inflicting that negative on innocent good guys or inherently evil bad guys the moral choice seems clear.
Cheers!
Landon