Building a Half-Doppelganger race (Lore / RP advice needed)


Homebrew and House Rules


I'm trying to convince my DM to let me play a shapeshifter race for a character idea of mine (Shapeshifter Rogue). This character was lifted out of 4e which DOES have a Changeling race, but Pathfinder doesn't (I find it weird PF Changelings are called such when they can't even shapeshift tbh). I'm not planning on exceeding 15RP ever (same amount for Aasimars), but I also realize that mechanically the ARG is broken and should only 'really' be used as a guideline (still though, 15 RP hard cap is good).

Right now, the 'Rulebook Entry' looks as such.

- Half-Doppelgangers (10~RP) //Really need a better name ala Fetchlings->Kayals

Standard Racial Traits:

*Ability Scores: Standard (0RP) -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha
*Size: Medium (0RP)
*Base Speed: Standard (0RP) 30ft.
*Languages: Standard (0RP) Common, and the Racial language of their adoptive parent race (If Human, they get a regional human language). 7 Languages they can learn are Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, or Sylvan. //Maybe change to Linguist (1RP)?

Defense Racial Traits:

* Dual Minded (1RP) +2 on Will saves

Feat/Skill Racial Traits:

* Integrated (1RP) +1 Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge Local

Magical Racial Traits:

* Change Shape, Greater (6RP) Can use Alter Self (as per spell) at will (standard/free action?)

Senses Racial Traits:

* Darkvision 60ft (2RP)

Other race traits which might be appropriate:

* Beguiling Liar (2RP) +4 Bluff //Alt to Integrated
* Quick Reactions (2RP) Improved Initiative Bonus Feat
* Fleet Footed (3RP) Run Bonus Feat and +2 Initiative //Alt to Quick Reactions
* Defensive Training, Lesser (Humans) (1RP) +4 Dodge bonus vs Humans //Pretty cheesy but it does fit the lore aspect I'm going for
* Silver Tongued (3RP) +2 Bluff/Diplomacy and can use alter attitude up to 3 steps
* Spell Like Ability Greater/Lesser (Detect Thoughts) (4/2RP) Detect thoughts as per the spell, at will or 1/day //I don't think this fits very well, since they're suppose to be toned down versions of Doppelgangers

As for lore, I figure they are not as in the open as 3.5 or 4e creating their own communities and such, in fact they're mostly unknown. They're not the distant descendants of humans and doppelgangers, but rather are the direct children of a human/doppelgangers (or Half-doppelgangers themselves). In my mind, they're almost always born from human women instead of doppelgangers themselves (either because doppelgangers can't get pregnant from other races, or take steps to prevent pregnancy from them). Half-doppelgangers are thus usually raised by single parents in secrecy or abandoned with childless families (rarely orphanages though given doppelganger stigma) and taught from an early age to adopt persona's as the racial child of their biological or adoptive parent(s). They are ultimately cautious making friends and have trouble making roots in communities (esp small ones) so often go adventuring. Showing people their true form is an ultimate sign of trust (if it's done willingly).

Half-Doppelgangers have the most tumultuous relationships with humans, as they inherit the reputation (and social fear of) their doppelganger parents but lack doppelganger skill/racial aptitude. Humans of course fear or hate what they don't know or understand. Dwarfs much the same but less so. They have great relationship with Fetchlings (who are familiar as being treated as social outcasts) and often adopt Fetchling persona's if they leave home (Fetchlings are probably the one race besides Doppelgangers who know about Half-Doppelgangers the most). Similarly, they have amicable relations with other half-breed (esp half breed) or outcast races like halflings and gnomes. They are often confused with Changelings. If they have a race with worse relations than humans, it's Doppelgangers; Doppelgangers view them as inferior to themselves and attitudes range from disdain to hate (which is why they will never raise a half-breed, unlike full blooded children). Likewise, Half-Doppelgangers hate full breeds for creating their poor reputation and handing it down to them, pushing them into lives of secrecy and hiding.

Half-Doppelgangers I imagine probably worship Desna, Calistra, and Norgorber more than any other gods, as their portfolios represent their interests (Travel, Freedom, Revenge, Secrets, Trickster). Most drift towards Chaotic alignments since they tend not to feel like laws/lawful society are fair/just to them.

Questions I have regarding Doppelgangers that influences the lore

-Are they genderless? If so are they merely hermaphrodites or are they sexless as well? (using other races forms to procreate?)
-How does shape shifting effect their pregnancy?
-How much do they invest in identities they create?
-Can they create unique humanoid identities or are they always copies?
-How long do they generally live?

Knowledge (nature) 18 to identify a Half-Doppelganger (CR3 of Doppelganger +5), failure by -5 or less means mistaking it for a Doppelganger, failure by -6 or more means you get nothing.

Knowledge (local) 23, same as above but the DC is +10 instead.

Suggestions for a one or two syllable word to replace the mouthful that is Half-Doppelganger?


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CommandoDude wrote:
Suggestions for a one or two syllable word to replace the mouthful that is Half-Doppelganger?

Skindancer? Although that's three syllables.

You might also check out the skindancer 0HD PC race in the Wayfinder #7 (still free) bestiary for ideas on some of the social aspects of skindancers (I had to cut out a bunch to hit the word count).

Silver Crusade

Endorsin' that skindancer.


Might want to have just a -2 STR, +2 CHA (isn't listed, strix use this ability score type, but probably -1 RP) because Alter Self grants +2 DEX for small forms and +2 STR for medium ones.


NoncompliAut wrote:
Might want to have just a -2 STR, +2 CHA (isn't listed, strix use this ability score type, but probably -1 RP) because Alter Self grants +2 DEX for small forms and +2 STR for medium ones.

Didn't write the whole text, but Change Shape does not confer any attribute changes.

Skindancer is good (not as good as Changeling in my opinion but can't use it!).


CommandoDude wrote:
NoncompliAut wrote:
Might want to have just a -2 STR, +2 CHA (isn't listed, strix use this ability score type, but probably -1 RP) because Alter Self grants +2 DEX for small forms and +2 STR for medium ones.

Didn't write the whole text, but Change Shape does not confer any attribute changes.

Skindancer is good (not as good as Changeling in my opinion but can't use it!).

I dunno. I say let the spell work as it works and then also change the stats to -2 Str +2 Cha. Or even just +2 Cha (though this is atypical). I am not sure why half doppelgangers would be either weak of arm or particularly dexterous. The statted doppelganger has 18 strength and only 13 dex so I don't know why there is a strength penalty and a dex bonus, especailly when there is already like a dozen races that give +2 Cha and +2 Dex.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
NoncompliAut wrote:
Might want to have just a -2 STR, +2 CHA (isn't listed, strix use this ability score type, but probably -1 RP) because Alter Self grants +2 DEX for small forms and +2 STR for medium ones.

Didn't write the whole text, but Change Shape does not confer any attribute changes.

Skindancer is good (not as good as Changeling in my opinion but can't use it!).

I dunno. I say let the spell work as it works and then also change the stats to -2 Str +2 Cha. Or even just +2 Cha (though this is atypical). I am not sure why half doppelgangers would be either weak of arm or particularly dexterous. The statted doppelganger has 18 strength and only 13 dex so I don't know why there is a strength penalty and a dex bonus, especailly when there is already like a dozen races that give +2 Cha and +2 Dex.

Because that's against RAW? I just read what the race ability says.

Also, I'm lifting this race from the stated versions of 3.5 and 4th edition, both of which list this race as having +2 Dex/Cha (3.5 gives them -2 Str/Con).


Presuming that the other half of this Doppleganger halfbreed is Human, why not just give them the Human ilk's floating +2? Keep in mind their type would be Humanoid(Human, Doppleganger) so they'd also qualify for feats, traits, etc. as both Humans and Dopps.


CommandoDude wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
NoncompliAut wrote:
Might want to have just a -2 STR, +2 CHA (isn't listed, strix use this ability score type, but probably -1 RP) because Alter Self grants +2 DEX for small forms and +2 STR for medium ones.

Didn't write the whole text, but Change Shape does not confer any attribute changes.

Skindancer is good (not as good as Changeling in my opinion but can't use it!).

I dunno. I say let the spell work as it works and then also change the stats to -2 Str +2 Cha. Or even just +2 Cha (though this is atypical). I am not sure why half doppelgangers would be either weak of arm or particularly dexterous. The statted doppelganger has 18 strength and only 13 dex so I don't know why there is a strength penalty and a dex bonus, especailly when there is already like a dozen races that give +2 Cha and +2 Dex.

Because that's against RAW? I just read what the race ability says.

Also, I'm lifting this race from the stated versions of 3.5 and 4th edition, both of which list this race as having +2 Dex/Cha (3.5 gives them -2 Str/Con).

Really, +2 to any one stat is what probably makes the most sense now that I have thought about it for more than a minute.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
I dunno. I say let the spell work as it works and then also change the stats to -2 Str +2 Cha. Or even just +2 Cha (though this is atypical). I am not sure why half doppelgangers would be either weak of arm or particularly dexterous. The statted doppelganger has 18 strength and only 13 dex so I don't know why there is a strength penalty and a dex bonus, especailly when there is already like a dozen races that give +2 Cha and +2 Dex.

I agree with Excaliburproxy's assessment.

Looks like your building a Dex/Cha-based finesse/social Rogue, however, so I suspect you're married to the stat arrangement you've listed. Many of the attribute and trait options you've selected for your half-doppelganger builds towards this goal. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, mind you.

By the way, what is your source for the 3.5 and 4.0 versions of the race? My 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting (pg. 12-13) has them with no ability modifiers, while my 4e Eberron Player's Guide (pg. 29) indicates they possess +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity or Intelligence (so I see where you got the Dexterity & Charisma bit from).

You might consider adding a "variant ability modifier" as an option in your racial variants section.


Da'ath wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
I dunno. I say let the spell work as it works and then also change the stats to -2 Str +2 Cha. Or even just +2 Cha (though this is atypical). I am not sure why half doppelgangers would be either weak of arm or particularly dexterous. The statted doppelganger has 18 strength and only 13 dex so I don't know why there is a strength penalty and a dex bonus, especailly when there is already like a dozen races that give +2 Cha and +2 Dex.

I agree with Excaliburproxy's assessment.

Looks like your building a Dex/Cha-based finesse/social Rogue, however, so I suspect you're married to the stat arrangement you've listed. Many of the attribute and trait options you've selected for your half-doppelganger builds towards this goal. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, mind you.

By the way, what is your source for the 3.5 and 4.0 versions of the race? My 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting (pg. 12-13) has them with no ability modifiers, while my 4e Eberron Player's Guide (pg. 29) indicates they possess +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity or Intelligence (so I see where you got the Dexterity & Charisma bit from).

You might consider adding a "variant ability modifier" as an option in your racial variants section.

Pretty much. Also Human Array is 1 or 2RP Standard is 0, and frankly it just fits my head canon (and other canon) better. I found the 3.5 description on this wiki

www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Changelings_(3.5e_Race)‎

I don't really need help on stat arrays. I need help on the lore.

Quote:
Keep in mind their type would be Humanoid(Human, Doppleganger) so they'd also qualify for feats, traits, etc. as both Humans and Dopps.

I don't think there are any feats with Shapeshifter subtype prereqs.


I've always found some of the best lore comes out of 2e for most monsters - even better if it's 2e or 3e Ravenloft. Try checking out the 2e Ravenloft Doppelgänger. Seems to have a lot of the information you were asking about.


Some very useful info in there, thanks for the link, but the ecology section heavily conflicts with the 3rd edition sources.

I figure I'll probably just have to go with some general concepts and hash out the details with my dm.

Basically

-Yes they're sexless, so half-doppelgangers being inherently gendered is a far separation.
-Apparently they can shapeshift while pregnant, probably going to have to get dm insight.
-Not much investment in identities, will discard them at the drop of a hat (they seem to pick rich idiots, mostly no one skilled)
-Seems they only can copy, not create. Another difference between the two races (Half-Doppelgangers can also alter their true form to some degree)
-Still no idea on age


CommandoDude wrote:
-Still no idea on age

Maybe change it up and give them a shortened natural lifespan, like that of the goblins? (If it wasn't a PC race, make it even shorter.)

The shapeshifting ability could be incompatible with their human genetics, causing their bodies to wear out faster. Then you can mix in a bit of Nexus 6/Roy Batty "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and we half-doppelgangers burn very, very brightly" into their racial backstory... perhaps they can sense their body aging and dying, spurring them to seek out constant intense experiences, culminating in a final exhilarating non-stop sequence of traveling, sight-seeing, eating, drinking/intoxication, loving, and killing. They'd likely seek out undeath or other means to prolong their existence. Because of their truncated lifespans and impulsive/reckless drives/urges, they could take a -2 racial penalty to Wisdom (+2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha?). Even when disguised, they might be impatient and twitchy, prone to foot tapping/leg bouncing, finger tapping, and other nervous tics.


CommandoDude wrote:
Quote:
Keep in mind their type would be Humanoid(Human, Doppleganger) so they'd also qualify for feats, traits, etc. as both Humans and Dopps.
I don't think there are any feats with Shapeshifter subtype prereqs.

Maybe, but there are plenty with Human subtype prereqs. That's the point; such a creature would qualify for all Human-based prereqs such as feat prerequisites (notably Racial Heritage) as well as racial archetypes.


There are changlings in 3.5 ebberron setting


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
-Still no idea on age

Maybe change it up and give them a shortened natural lifespan, like that of the goblins? (If it wasn't a PC race, make it even shorter.)

The shapeshifting ability could be incompatible with their human genetics, causing their bodies to wear out faster. Then you can mix in a bit of Nexus 6/Roy Batty "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and we half-doppelgangers burn very, very brightly" into their racial backstory... perhaps they can sense their body aging and dying, spurring them to seek out constant intense experiences, culminating in a final exhilarating non-stop sequence of traveling, sight-seeing, eating, drinking/intoxication, loving, and killing. They'd likely seek out undeath or other means to prolong their existence. Because of their truncated lifespans and impulsive/reckless drives/urges, they could take a -2 racial penalty to Wisdom (+2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha?). Even when disguised, they might be impatient and twitchy, prone to foot tapping/leg bouncing, finger tapping, and other nervous tics.

I'd really need to know how long Doppelgangers themselves live, none of the sources I find ever seem to give even a little clue as to that. Half Elves for instance inherit a small amount of Eleven longevity and live many decades longer than humans.

The only other comparable races are Changelings (human/hag children) and Kitsune (human,shapeshifter subtypes) both of which have near human lifespan (Kitsune slightly shorter).

As for Goblinoid lifespans, biologically that would make little sense (warning, college biology coming at you). Goblins typically have a high mortality rate (due to having short life spans and quick childhoods) which argues that the only way they're not extinct is through immense breeding, putting them in line with r-selection species that produce many offspring and relying more on statistical probability that at least some will go on to reproduce themselves.

Half-Doppelgangers with their low birth rates would almost never survive to reproduce with that biological circumstance (although since they're half breeds, I guess they'd never truly go extinct). Plus, since they're raised in a k-selection species like humans, they'd almost be middle aged by the time regular humans come of age.


Do you own the Eberron 3.5 setting book? If not, I recommend you pick it up. It has all the information regarding their lifespan, height, weight, etc there on pages 12-13.

Basically, they're mature at 15 but otherwise age as humans. Google Eberron Changeling and you can find some basic information posted in a variety of wikis.

A lot of the information your looking for is either out of print or was never put in print. In both cases, this gives you a lot of "artistic license".

Edit: frankly, there really isn't indication that half doppelgängers exist in the existing general game lore. There are a few blurbs here and there for fluff to excuse low powered versions, but most of the other information I have access to indicates they use other humanoids to reproduce and they always reproduce true. You might be getting a little too focused on details that don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Edit2: Fraternity of Shadows has a basic bibliography of doppelgänger sources. Most of the 3.0 Ravenloft material is overly detailed in the extreme, so even more information is packed into the listed materials.

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