I've been reviewing the critical feats of late as part of planning out a class which is rogue-related.
Is it just me or are they only neat on first or second glance? As I was reading them, I kept thinking to myself:
Okay, that's neat! A fighter can blind on a critical hit. Wait, a prerequisite of +15 BAB? Can't a spellcaster do that at 3rd level?
Oooh! Tiring critical. You can fatigue on a critical hit at... 13th level. What? Isn't touch of fatigue a cantrip... Yeah.
Don't get me wrong, one or two of them we're actually impressive, but the rest of them ran through my head as the two mentioned above.
A majority of these effects can be done on-demand by a spellcaster ( alot of them are not that high level); additionally, a majority of them are area of effect, last longer, and/or have other secondary effects.
The Critical Focus feat looked rather familiar on first glance, as well, though I can't quite place it yet.
I don't get it.
Edit: As I'm homebrewing a class, I guess what I'm asking is can anyone see any mechanical and logical reason these have the prerequisites they have or any reason I can't tie some of these to the expenditure of a class pool (similar to arcane/ki/etc)?
Edit: As I'm homebrewing a class, I guess what I'm asking is can anyone see any mechanical and logical reason these have the prerequisites they have or any reason I can't tie some of these to the expenditure of a class pool (similar to arcane/ki/etc)?
I see no problems at all. When I created my Warbound Juggernaut multiclass archetype (Ftr/Cav), I gave him a pool of points to use on a variety of combat feats, gaining the effects of the feat(s) for 1 minute. Based on the magus arcane pool of course. Here it is for quick reference.
The warbound juggernaut can spend 1 point from his combat pool as a swift action to gain the benefits of a single combat feat (even if he does not meet the prerequisites) for 1 minute. This feat is decided when the combat pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the duration of the effects ends, or until next time the warbound juggernaut again uses this ability. A warbound juggernaut can only apply a single feat at one time. If he uses this ability again, the benefit of the first feat immediately ends.
At 1st level, the warbound juggernaut can choose from the following list whenever he expends a combat point: Dazzling Display, Great Cleave, Mounted Archery, Rapid Shot, Stand Still, and Whirlwind Attack.
At 4th level, he can choose from the following additional feats: Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Manyshot, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Spring Attack, and Vital Strike. In addition, he can spend 1 combat point to remove the –2 penalty to his AC during a single use of his Battle Charge or Mighty Battle Charge ability.
At 7th level, the warbound juggernaut can apply two feats simultaneously, as a swift action. The warbound juggernaut must spend the appropriate number of combat points to gain both feats. If he uses this ability again, the benefit of all applied feats immediately end.
At 10th level, whenever the warbound juggernaut expends 2 points from his combat pool, he can choose from the following additional feats: Bleeding Critical, Deadly Stroke, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Vital Strike, Mounted Skirmisher, and Penetrating Strike.
At 13th level, the warbound juggernaut can apply three feats simultaneously.
At 16th level, whenever the warbound juggernaut expends 3 points from his combat pool, he can choose from the following additional feats: Deadly Finish†, Crippling Critical*, Greater Penetrating Strike, and Greater Vital Strike. (*Advanced Player’s Guide,†Ultimate Combat)
The combat pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest. These hours do not need to be consecutive. This ability replaces the bonus feats gained at 1st, 6th, and 20th level.
Welcome to 'Wizards rule, Fighters drool' part 8593.
|
Edit: As I'm homebrewing a class, I guess what I'm asking is can anyone see any mechanical and logical reason these have the prerequisites they have or any reason I can't tie some of these to the expenditure of a class pool (similar to arcane/ki/etc)?
As far as a class pool, there shouldn't be any problem with that. You'll still have to do some balancing, obviously, but the idea can be balanced easily enough (see: stunning fist). If in doubt, just keep their availability to roughly the same levels as spells and you'll do fine.
I think the answer to "why" is that a character at the appropriate levels can trigger around one of those effects a round (if not more), on top of their full-attack damage. Fatiguing an opponent is generally a waste of a round, but dealing your normal damage plus fatiguing an opponent... that's obviously a lot better.
That isn't to say the feats shouldn't be easier to get, but you need to compare apples to apples. Spells that deal level-appropriate damage and provide status effects are higher level than the examples you're giving.
Cheers!
Landon
Thanks houser2112. I knew I'd seen the feat before, but could only find the 3rd edition examples of it, which were much different.
I see no problems at all. When I created my Warbound Juggernaut multiclass archetype (Ftr/Cav), I gave him a pool of points to use on a variety of combat feats, gaining the effects of the feat(s) for 1 minute. Based on the magus arcane pool of course. Here it is for quick reference.
** spoiler omitted **...
Much appreciated for both the reassurance, as well as the link. It will be quite helpful.
Welcome to 'Wizards rule, Fighters drool' part 8593.
Yeah, I've been aware of the problem (like most) for a while, so I really shouldn't have been terribly surprised. I guess I just needed a reminder. It is one of the core issues I'm working on right now while revising my campaign setting. I'm happy with my races, but I'm going to be putting a lot more effort into making sure my classes work the way I want them to. I'm hoping to rework certain "low tier" classes to bring them up to high tier 4, low tier 3.
Tier 2: Oracle, Sorceror, Summoner.
Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ninja, Magus, Rogue.
Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai.
Tier 5: Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk.
As far as a class pool, there shouldn't be any problem with that. You'll still have to do some balancing, obviously, but the idea can be balanced easily enough (see: stunning fist). If in doubt, just keep their availability to roughly the same levels as spells and you'll do fine.
I think the answer to "why" is that a character at the appropriate levels can trigger around one of those effects a round (if not more), on top of their full-attack damage. Fatiguing an opponent is generally a waste of a round, but dealing your normal damage plus fatiguing an opponent... that's obviously a lot better.
That isn't to say the feats shouldn't be easier to get, but you need to compare apples to apples. Spells that deal level-appropriate damage and provide status effects are higher level than the examples you're giving.
Cheers!
Landon
I agree on all points, save one, but it's due to fault with the design of melee classes (single attack on standard action, which is what you're taking as a melee most of the time, it seems) and not your logic, which is sound. While I still think the requirements are too high, I no longer feel the comparisons I made were taking all factors into account.
All around, much appreciated folks! Definitely helpful.
Wait, GitP rates the Rogue tier 3? I though tier 3 was for classes that are really good at multiple things?
I do have to say that I agree with you on a lot of these feats are really underwhelming, I guess the devs were trying to balance the debuffs due to the damage potentially being dealt on a crit, and went way overboard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They're all things that happen as a bonus to something you were planning on doing anyway. You attack because you already wanted to attack anyway, and now sometimes you can also apply a nice debuff without any extra work on your part. If you get a high crit chance weapon (like a 15-20 keen weapon) and have multiple attacks per round (which you should at that level), then your odds of landing one or more of these crit effects per turn are pretty high.
Those spells you're talking about are not bonus effects of some better action. They're their whole action for the round, and limited to a few times per day. For you it's not even the main point of your action, just a bonus, and you can do it all day long, potentially multiple times per round. If you had to take a standard action specifically to blind someone at level 15, that would be pretty underwhelming, but as an addon to whatever your attack already does that's a different story.
Tiring critical has no saving throw (and is a prereq to the next feat which exhausts them with no save). The cantrip requires a spell caster to perform a touch attack, which is not their strong suit. And you can potentially attack multiple people per round.
With many crit feats your crit could exhaust and blind them. Plus this can be combined with other attack abilities. As a fighter around level 15-16 it's possible in a single round for you to exhaust, blind, make flat foot, sicken, frighten, trip, reposition, interrupt an attack, and bestow curse on the same target. While also doing a ton of damage. All in one round. And possibly do those things to more than one target. And that's just with feats and mundane equipment, not even adding the bonus effects you'll likely have to your attacks from magic items or buffs by then. With a magic weapon and some effect from gear, you could easily add another couple of nasty debuffs with your attacks. With all those debuffs, your party will eat that target alive, he won't be much threat to you, and if he survives to the next round you'll have a much easier time landing any debuffs that didn't work the first time, since they now have so many penalties to saves/AC/CMD stacked up.
Is a level 15 fighter as strong as a level 15 wizard? Nope. But that's a different argument. Are critical feats a potentially useful option for a fighter? Yes. Are they comparable in power to other abilities that a fighter could add with feats? Yes. They can be situational and require a build that complements it, but the same is true of most combat feats that a fighter could choose.
They're all things that happen as a bonus to something you were planning on doing anyway. You attack because you already wanted to attack anyway, and now sometimes you can also apply a nice debuff without any extra work on your part. If you get a high crit chance weapon (like a 15-20 keen weapon) and have multiple attacks per round (which you should at that level), then your odds of landing one or more of these crit effects per turn are pretty high.
I might agree with this, if it was free or had less stringent requirements. When you replace melee (fighters, rogues, and a couple others) with wizard, for example, you change the entire argument. A wizard taking the Empower metamagic feat and applying it to his spells is just a bonus to something he was already planning to do anyway, as well. However, his "bonus" is leaps and bounds above the melee's bonus. He can do it while flying out of range of any reasonable attack range for a melee character.
Our poor melee player, however, can IF he crits, apply 1 effect against most enemies. Why? They just keep moving just enough to ensure he only gets 1 attack, which is not uncommon. On the off chance he can make all of his melee attacks in one round... he's reasonably likely to hit on the first two hits, but thats it. In addition, the more proficient he is, the more likely he is to lose an attack to a Nat 1.
A spellcaster has no such limitations and has several means by which to bypass any limitations based on creature types - take a look at the metamagic feats. There are a plethora of things you can find there which simply let him ignore immunities of opponents that might give him a hard time (ignore mind-affecting limitations on undead and oozes, for example). The vast majority of his spells do not even require the roll of a single d20. Failure on a Natural 1 is only a concern on rays.
Those spells you're talking about are not bonus effects of some better action. They're their whole action for the round, and limited to a few times per day. For you it's not even the main point of your action, just a bonus, and you can do it all day long, potentially multiple times per round. If you had to take a standard action specifically to blind someone at level 15, that would be pretty underwhelming, but as an addon to whatever your attack already does that's a different story.
Tiring critical has no saving throw (and is a prereq to the next feat which exhausts them with no save). The cantrip requires a spell caster to perform a touch attack, which is not their strong suit. And you can potentially attack multiple people per round.
I really can't argue against the points you make here. What I can say is this: at that level, as a full caster, you have better options. A spellcaster always has better options. Your options change very little, if at all, for a majority of melee.
With many crit feats your crit could exhaust and blind them. Plus this can be combined with other attack abilities. As a fighter around level 15-16 it's possible in a single round for you to exhaust, blind, make flat foot, sicken, frighten, trip, reposition, interrupt an attack, and bestow curse on the same target. While also doing a ton of damage. All in one round. And possibly do those things to more than one target. And that's just with feats and mundane equipment, not even adding the bonus effects you'll likely have to your attacks from magic items or buffs by then. With a magic weapon and some effect from gear, you could easily add another couple of nasty debuffs with your attacks. With all those debuffs, your party will eat that target alive, he won't be much threat to you, and if he survives to the next round you'll have a much easier time landing any debuffs that didn't work the first time, since they now have so many penalties to saves/AC/CMD stacked up.
I agree with you, but only with regard to the first two attacks and only if they hold still, don't teleport, fly, etc. Every aspect of being melee is situational, while every aspect of spellcasters is being versatile.
Is a level 15 fighter as strong as a level 15 wizard? Nope. But that's a different argument. Are critical feats a potentially useful option for a fighter? Yes. Are they comparable in power to other abilities that a fighter could add with feats? Yes. They can be situational and require a build that complements it, but the same is true of most combat feats that a fighter could choose.
I partially agree. You present good arguments, but they're also very much in favor of the status quo - which I don't necessarily like to buck with any sort of frequency. When you look at the bolded emphasis I added above, and take into account that being comparable to other poor combat options a melee can select, one could say the argument hinges on the idea that melee are in this particular box and should not be removed from it.
For the record, I'm not in the club that believes melee should be brought up to the same power level as wizards. I am not in the club which believes melee should be able to make a full attack as a standard action (pounce!). I do, however, believe that the options they have available should be engaging, comparable to similar effects, and ultimately not make you feel like you're in a race with your shoelaces tied.
Thank you, Anachrony, for your post, by the way. It made me consider a few more aspects of the issue from a different angle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If your argument is that mages are better, then fine. They are. But your opening post was about why a fighter would choose those feats, and there are plenty of reasons.
Our poor melee player, however, can IF he crits, apply 1 effect against most enemies. Why? They just keep moving just enough to ensure he only gets 1 attack, which is not uncommon.
Apply 2 crit feats, not 1. And those are just one of many options you have for adding effects to your attacks. With the right weapon you have a 30% chance of crit every attack. And you can do that on top of other abilities that will work without a crit.
Even if you only have a standard action because they're moving, there are options that will result in doing multiple attacks with a single standard action, in addition to the attack of opportunity when they try to move away (which you can also end up doing more than one attack for). So even if they're constantly on the move you could be doing at least 4+ attacks at your maximum attack bonus every round. Each with a 30% chance of crit, which gives you very high odds of being able to land your 2 crit effects each round.
And they can't just keep moving if that means you get an attack of opportunity against them and your attack of opportunity is a combat maneuver that keeps them from going anywhere. They also can't just keep moving if a single attack is all you need to land several of the status effects that I mentioned, some of which keep them from being able to move very effectively.
If you want to go down the road of being a fighter who can debuff people, you need to stack the pain on and design a build around it so that is not so easy for people to just move around and ignore you. It's possible to do. Your crit feats are not going to be your sole ability. You're going to be doing a bunch of other stuff, and then these just make it even worse for your enemy.
If they are flying, teleporting, or have other such abilities, it may make things harder for you, but there is still plenty you can do. At that level you could easily be flying right back after them and then knock them out of the sky. And not all enemies are even going to have every possible special ability.
High level fighters as not as effective as equal level magic users, but if that's the conversation you wanted to have, it shouldn't be in a discussion of critical feats. They can be used to quite good effect.
Wait, GitP rates the Rogue tier 3? I though tier 3 was for classes that are really good at multiple things?
I do have to say that I agree with you on a lot of these feats are really underwhelming, I guess the devs were trying to balance the debuffs due to the damage potentially being dealt on a crit, and went way overboard.
I was just as surprised as you regarding the rogue & the ranking in that GitP post. I'd rank them low Tier 4 at best. As far as I can tell, there is nothing they do better than anyone anymore and nothing that they do very well, which is the basic entrance to tier 4.
Yeah, that's really it, I think (trying to balance vs damage dealt on a crit). I agree with the way overboard bit too.
If your argument is that mages are better, then fine. They are. But your opening post was about why a fighter would choose those feats, and there are plenty of reasons.
Okay, we have a miscommunication. I do not dispute your reasons for why a fighter would select a critical feat. In my original post, I was disheartened by the prerequisites given to said feats. My question wasn't really asked until the end in the edit (which I added as I noticed I hadn't actually asked a real question). I'll quote it here:
"Edit: As I'm homebrewing a class, I guess what I'm asking is can anyone see any mechanical and logical reason these have the prerequisites they have or any reason I can't tie some of these to the expenditure of a class pool (similar to arcane/ki/etc)?"Apply 2 crit feats, not 1.
Yep, you're correct. Forgot about Mastery.
Even if you only have a standard action because they're moving, there are options that will result in doing multiple attacks with a single standard action, in addition to the attack of opportunity when they try to move away (which you can also end up doing more than one attack for). So even if they're constantly on the move you could be doing at least 4+ attacks at your maximum attack bonus every round. Each with a 30% chance of crit, which gives you very high odds of being able to land your 2 crit effects each round.
And they can't just keep moving if that means you get an attack of opportunity against them and your attack of opportunity is a combat maneuver that keeps them from going anywhere. They also can't just keep moving if a single attack is all you need to land several of the status effects that I mentioned, some of which keep them from being able to move very effectively.
If you want to go down the road of being a fighter who can debuff people, you need to stack the pain on and design a build around it so that is not so easy for people to just move around and ignore you. It's possible to do. Your crit feats are not going to be your sole ability. You're going to be doing a bunch of other stuff, and then these just make it even worse for your enemy.
If they are flying, teleporting, or have other such abilities, it may make things harder for you, but there is still plenty you can do. At that level you could easily be flying right back after them. And not all enemies are even going to have every possible special ability.
I agree with everything you're saying here. I'm familiar with the builds you mentioned, as one of my players with high system mastery often makes one variant or another of the two. I am, however, unhappy with the options presented to melee. Ultimately, I think their options should be expanded to include more than a few specific builds and allow them to flourish in a variety of situations.
High level fighters as not as effective as equal level magic users, but if that's the conversation you wanted to have, it shouldn't be in a discussion of critical feats. They can be used to quite good effect.
It isn't the conversation I wanted to have, but I did allow it to devolve into it by not earlier recognizing the miscommunication.
You can at most get criticals work 1/4th the time if you hit, and if we assume you auto-confirm. You'd need to hit a LOT to get even close to spells.
Your math is a little off. First off 15-20 is 30%, which is closer to 1/3 than 1/4. 16-20 would be 1/4.
Secondly, your criticals are the higher dice rolls, so if your attack roll threatens a crit you should also be hitting. To the extent that you have a chance not to hit, that actually just increases the odds of your getting a crit when you do hit. And your confirm roll will at very least have a +4 to confirm from the prereq for crit feats, and there are other ways to improve that too. So if you have a decent chance of hitting in the first place, you have an even better chance of confirming.
Thirdly, your chance of hitting in the first place will be a hell of a lot better without that -5 on all attacks from dazing assault. That's basically throwing away your first and best iterative attack on a full attack.
Fourth, you don't just get one attack. Even if all you have is a standard action, there are ways of hitting more than once per round with that. And each hit is the 30% chance to crit, which quickly adds up to very high chances.
Fifth, the effect of stunning critical is significantly better than dazing. The same save DC, but it lasts more than 1 round, and if they succeed the save, they still get staggered anyway. They also drop everything and get penalties. Stunning Critical is just way better than Daze, and it's only one of the two effects you can get on a crit. And you can crit more often than not with the right build.