No, this particular thread is not the Linkin Park song, instead I come here to ask for suggestions and guidance on something I've noticed about my play style as a wizard. I, Third Mind, am a compulsive evocation magic user...
Yes. I know that this is not inherently bad or the "wrong" choice" as evocation and other wizard focused builds are legitimate and effective in their own rights. My problem is, I actually really want to play a control wizard build... but for some reason or another end up shooting acid arrows over creating grease spots.
I have a bunch of the control spells (grease, create pit, web, entangle, obscuring mist), although I have yet to get any of the summon spells. I will eventually, but I rarely find myself in a spot to just stand there and summon.
So, there it is. Any suggestions on how to get into the control wizard mindset? I've read Treatmonk's guide which is what got me interested in doing it in the first place, but to me his guide more tells you that controlling is good and which spells fill that role, rather then giving tactical pointers on getting in position to control.
p.s. I know it's a loaded question. Maybe just info on why trying to slap grease under a scythe tree instead of sending a blast spell, sort of thing, would be useful.
Step 1
"Hi everyone, I'm Third Mind, and I'm a blastaholic."
Step 2
if you can't go cold turkey, start rationing out your blast spells. I suggest 25% of your spells. Don't round up. The rest can be buffs, debuffs, utility, control, yada yada.
Step 3
Realize that you might have a thing with instant gratification. Thats why we blast, right? Control takes preparation and good timing, so get on the delayed gratification wagon.
Oh and if you blast an enemy and it doesn't die, then it will attack on its turn. Then you'll need to use resources healing. A good control spell will shut down an enemy in some way. If it can't full attack or act at all, then you're doing a good job of controlling. On the flip side, sometimes they make their save and you try something else.
I really like the rationing idea. I think that could go a really long way in getting me to shift mental gears.
The gratification bit could be true, which is odd because I really enjoy planning things out, even to an unnecessary degree. I suppose though that enjoying pre-planning does not equal gratification. I guess I should then try to pull my "out of game" enjoyment of planning and prep into the gameplay during battle.
Thanks. I think this could definitely help. I'm going to look into more of the "must have" control spells, as now that I've look at my list, I could use more options. A good control wizard can always use more options.
I tend to lean towards playing almost exclusively control casters, but its not for everyone. Since treantmonks guide paizo has continue to put out content that makes blasting more desirable I can see the draw. Some people have to be the center of attention, being a control caster is letting others be the center of attention.
Benefits 101 to control casting
1) aggro, or lack of agro I should say. Assuming your gm plays pretty realistically most enemies are going to let you go for the guy hitting him in the face with a warhammer rather than the guy throwing a little grease on the floor, and even less if your hasting the party. The blaster on the other hand is likely to draw all the agro, and the enemies will rightly be gunning for your body.
2) your party are all your minions. Thats right, they all serve you by doing dirty work. the fighter needs a little help hitting, so you drop a puddle. Your rogue needs a flank spot so you jump him across the battlefield. Its going to be one of those encounters so you give everyone a little haste love. You are basically their manipulating them by your control spells. Its like getting lemmings to do what you want because you put a ladder there. The best thing is they are happy to.be your liyal minions because they think you are making them better.
3) watching a helpless enemy. Its so much fun to be three rounds into an encounter and half the enemies are still in your web, the rest lie beaten around your allies. Sometimes you only need a single spell then you just let your pawns clean up. A well placed black tentacle and you can make it to the bar for a drink and back again before the party even realizes your gone. Its like playing chess, but you have all the pieces.
4) resource management. This ranges to completely not important (if your gm allows the 5 minute adventuring day), to somewhat important (pfs and aps) to very important (the way I run games). A well placed black tentacles with an aqueous orb (where do you think your going) and you've done your part for that encounter. Whether or not this important varies drastically though.
So while blasting is all well and good, there is a whole world of godhood out there if you just spend sometime getting to know it. And I promise you, the more you practice it, the better you get, and the more fun it is.
A lot of good points here as well, especially about the aggro aspect. My DM may target me out of the group as he only "defenseless target standing in the open" if there were a lot of minions, but I think you're right especially when it comes to solo enemies.
Thanks everyone.
I think once I pick out (and with extreme luck find in-game and can afford) some more control / buff / debuff spells I should be able to more ably sink my teeth into the control side of the wizarding spectrum. I do have haste and keep it handy as well as the spells mentioned above and some others, but I feel I should look into getting some single target control type spells as most of mine are essentially AOE which can sometimes be tough to place correctly when the party is on the move.
Thanks again.
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A lot of good points here as well, especially about the aggro aspect. My DM may target me out of the group as he only "defenseless target standing in the open" if there were a lot of minions, but I think you're right especially when it comes to solo enemies.
If that's a concern, make yourself look more threatening. Give your character a scar and an eyepatch. Pick up some kind of strength buff and call it out as making your muscles bigger. Wear spiked gauntlets stained with blood. Practice snarling. Have another party member tell you to hang back at the beginning of the fight, in full view of the opposition, because "remember what Lord Garamin said. He's not paying full bounty for any more corpses whose limbs have been splintered from being used as to beat their former owners to death."
That should, theoretically, keep the minions off of you until you can just spend the whole fight invisible casting no spells that end the effect.
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About the gratification thing: Some control spells can actually feel like blasting. Instead of looking at a charging horde of goblins and going "Fireball!" and watch them burn to their miserable deaths, you go "Create Pit!" and watch them fall, break every bone in their bodies while you whistle and listen to their moans of agony.
You have to think more like a sadistic psychopath and less like a mass murderer...
...That's a terrible aesop. -.-
Third Mind, you don't have a problem, it's everyone else who has a problem. People say that pumping enemy control and conjuration is the best idea, but what's the first thing people point to when saying high level play breaks down? The wizard who knows all the Dominate and Summon/Planar Binding/Simulacrum spells. Battlefield control, that's one thing, but when you start controlling several units at once, your GM is going to find themselves wanting you super dead and rerolling a fighter or a monk.
Now there are merits to blaster casters. Have a seat, let me tell you about Draconic bloodline sorcerers...
I play a Wizard with Evocation and Abjuration as his prohibited schools. I do it precisely to stop myself from blasting or tanking. I find my character actively hates combat. I have the quickest turns ever, unless we end up in an argument about how poorly worded the spell Grease is and why or why not the Zombies have gone all comic relief. I spend most of my time crafting magic items and consulting the Witch and Cleric about how to coordinate our magic to best effect. The character is useful, mostly indirectly, but doesn't feel like most mages because Fireball and Dispel Magic are for emergencies not everyday use.
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I am a bad Control Wizard because I am too paranoid about using the resources available to me. There were entire sessions that I would barely cast a single spell in fear that just around the corner, there was an uber beast that would end us. To reinforce this fear, my PFS rogue obsessively checks for traps. The one time I didn't, after being made fun of by the group and the GM for doing so, the party walked onto a trap. That's right. The GM who made fun of me for checking for traps psyched me out into not looking for them just before one.
Back on the subject at hand, I think maybe you just need a slight change of view. Don't think of spells such as Summon Monster # as conjuration spells. Think of them as multiturn blast spells. While at low levels, a round or two of summoned beasts aren't terribly exciting, summoning a Lion for a few rounds to charge/pounce/om nom nom nom some bad guys is just awesome. Even better if the bad guys spend a bunch of their turns trying to end your lion spell ahead of time by wasting their attacks on it.
I think it's best to just find a nice healthy balance between the two. Find yourself damage spells that also have a control aspect to them.
Obsidian flow is one of my go-to spells because it not only does fireball damage, it also traps enemies to the ground.
I think the key to caster happiness is to find yourself a nice versatile damage spell like Dragon's Breath, and take the feat Preferred Spell on it. That way you always have at least one potent blast spell (of various energy types) available to you at all times. And, depending on what mood you are in, you can either control them or blast em to bits.
These are really helpful everyone. Between rationing my blast spells, becoming more sadistic (which sounds like fun) and other things. I think I should be on track for our next game to try being more control and less blast.
I will definitely have some blast ready. As some have mentioned there are times when a group is just asking for it or our archer needs some acid for that troll that was waving at him funny (probably trying to claw him...), but I'm going to consciously make sure I keep those to a bare minimum if I put them in at all.
I was kind of hoping to actually get some pointers on control spells I should hunt for in the near future. If any is willing to oblige on that front, I've put my current spells known below. Also, if necessary for some reason, I'm a wood elemental wizard at 6th level.
*Charm Person (specialized school choice)
Grease
Color Spray
Burning Hands
Silent Image
Mage Armor
Feather fall
*Animate Rope (specialized school choice)
Vanish [Lv. 2 choice]
Obscuring Mist (Favored Class Bonus)
Unseen Servant
Identify
Reduce Person
Shield
Keep Watch (Favored Class Bonus)
Floating Disk
Detect Secret Doors
Snowball
Corrosive Touch
Infernal Healing
Protection from Evil
Mount
Level 2 =
*Entangle (Specialized School Choice)
Invisibility
Stone Call
*Web (Specialized School Choice)
See Invisibility
Create Pit (Favored Class Bonus)
Mirror Image
Resist Energy
Glitterdust
Acid Arrow
Touch of Idiocy
Darkvision (Favored Class Bonus)
Level 3 =
Fly
*Wind Wall (Specialized School Choice)
Haste
* Tongues (Specialized School Choice)
Dispel Magic
Well, on short term, Stinking Cloud and Slow are great spells you could easily pick up (also nice for collecting fools to blast if you want to ;)). Among 4th level spells Confusion sticks out (and can occasionally win encounters by itself).
Most of the other great spells you can have right now, you already have.
level 1 Ear Piercing Scream, Alter Winds, Expeditious Retreat, Expeditious Excavation, Liberating Command
level 2 Fog Cloud, Summon Swarm, Unnatural Lust, Darkness, Frost Fall, Gust of Wind, Shatter, Haunting Mists, Hypnotic Pattern
level 3 Aqueous Orb, Ash Storm, Mad Monkeys, Rain of Frogs, Sleet Storm, Spiked Pit, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Tiny Hut, Slow, Strangling Hair
Awesome. Thanks for the ideas on spells!
Excluded schools as others have said forces a new mindset... Just remember that whether or not you get "credit" from your party, a control caster is absolutely making a huge difference.
Our DM in Rappan Attak in 3.5 was much more worried about my Gnome who focused on illusion and conjuration spells than the Sorcerer who blasted for huge numbers. They were both effective, but the control-based caster frustrated him. (Project image, even with true seeing, is so effective, and solid fog almost wasn't fair in 3.5)
It reminds me of the golf saying: "Drive for show, putt for dough"... In this case the drive being blasting and the putting being control. Our party did recognize my controller's contributions and so will yours the more you play and the more you save their collective butts ;)