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My party and I need some advice on our current situation.
Our current campaign is a dual party campaign where there is an evil party and a good party, which will culminate in a final pvp session. Party make up is, good (ranger, OoV paladin (me), paladin, fighter, blood rager) and evil (rogue/assassin, fighter, ranger, cleric (very experienced player)). Right now we are at level 10 and seems like the final fight will happen somewhere around level 13-15.
However, today the gm told me that 3/4 members of the evil party have acquired the half-fiend template. Which is no doubt due to the cleric of Asmodeus in the party and his dealing with devils.
Now I normally wouldn't ask for advice outside the game but right now its going to be an absolute curb stomping for our party. I've spoken to the gm and he said we need to 'lift our game' but I don't really know what to do.. So any advice would be appreciated.
You need a caster to deal with their caster. Your party consists of martial x5, their party consists of martial x3 + full caster. You might have the magic to deal with adventuring hassles from 2 paladins and a ranger, but you are not gonna do yourself any favors in PVP. Leadership to get a caster at level -2 is a fair option. Buying a bunch of magic items is another way. Having the next person who dies not get raised and make a caster is probably the least painful.
All that said the terms of the duel are more important than any advice I give you. An evil cleric without his hordes of undead and bound devils is much less scary.
One of the options we discussed was both the other paladin and I take leadership (the dm already give it the ok) and we get a wizard and a cleric. The main problem is going to be the template though, I'm not sure if leadership is going to lessen that massive gap enough.
The only thing I can thing of is either getting help from a good outsider, or getting the order of paladins my character is a member of to come down on them with us.
Planar Binding is the key spell to equalize. If they have the Half-Fiend Template, counter by getting the Half-Celestial template. If they are doing it you can do it, but expect to have to do whatever it takes to gain the assistance of powerful good outsiders and deities.
Thanks for some good advice on the fight itself, but what I'm more looking for is some solutions to level the playing field before combat even begins. I think it would be much more rewarding to even the odd by roleplaying and adventure, than super tight strategy alone. So far I know they have angered a clan of brass dragons, and have sacked a temple of Torm. So I would imagine if you start desecrating temples in NE Faerun you're bound to attract some negative attention.
And I'm not sure blood_kite, all I know is that xp wise we are both level 10 and they have the template.
If they are half-fiends then smite evil should be more effective against them. Look into litany of justice. I think thats the name of the spell that doubles damage against an evil enemy.
With both of those you might manage a one hit KO.
Also I suggest planting a head of vecna for them to find. That is an effective way to kill an evil party.
You have two major problems. The first is you have no full spell caster and the spell casters you do have are 3 levels lower than theirs, and have a lot less spells and of significantly lower level. Even leadership is not going to fully cover it because your cohort is going to be at least 2 levels behind your level. Also the cohort is probably going to be built on fewer points. This means their magic is going to be a lot weaker. The fact that you will have two of them will help make up the difference.
The other thing is the template. Not only does this give them a huge list of special abilities including spell resistance, it also gives a huge boost to stats. This makes the difference between your casters even larger. You can bet the cleric is going to be putting one of his +4 into WIS which makes his spells even harder to resist.
You are going to need to acquire the half celestial template for all your party including cohorts or you don’t stand much of a chance. If you don’t you need to find something that will bring up your power level. If you gained some mystic tiers that may make up the difference. Maybe some artifact can grant you that for a short time.
Is your DM applying any kind of CR or XP adjustment for the evil party members that have what is a +2 or +3 CR template? He should be adjusting their effective level if they acquire templates like half-fiend.
If he's not doing some kind of adjustment or cost then I have to wonder if he really cares about making it an interesting or challenging fight and just wants to see a slaughter. If your two parties meet at 13th level it will be CR 12/12/12/12/12 vs. 15/15/15/12, which doesn't seem like a very fair fight if three of them will be able to smite.
This was my thought.
If I were you guys, I'd consider turning vampire or werewolf or something. They won't expect that.
On the flipside, here's some other advice. I'm playing in a very high level evil campaign right now, and the scariest thing we've run into so far is the group of five paladins, each of which could quick channel to heal all their allies, and each of which who had Shield Other cast on the guy to their left.
So effectively they each had double hit points, and each got more than double healing from any one of them doing an AOE lay-on-hands channel, because when I damaged one of them he'd take half, the guy to his left would take half of that, the guy to his left would take half of the remainder, etc, and one channel would wipe up almost all the damage. It was quite nice.
So yeah, do that and get a couple Holy Avengers. That will help with your lack of a caster.
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Also might I recommend when you get the Leadership Spell casters that one of them take nothing But craft feats. DOUBLE you gold basically....Time to really break leadership. This attitude of needing to 1 up the other party means some stinky cheese needs to be brought forth.
The lack of full caster hurts. I recommend following the advice of if someone dies re-roll a full caster. Preferably a Wizard or a Witch. They have a rogue, Fighter, and a Ranger...all of which suffer from Bad will saves....
Slumber Hex OP yo! Ice tomb Is pretty good too.
Also thinking in a completely jerk way. First Half fiends are not resistant to Negative energy....Half the time they will not have death ward up and running...they figure they are the ones doing the negative things. Use this to your Advantage (unless the DM is either A telling them what your doing like he did with you in this case or B the cleric is using Divination to spy on you). I recommend a Enervate specialist....open combat by hitting one of them for -12 Levels and see how quickly they can rebound before one of your 2 paladins Kills the weakling. Repeat on a 2nd target and once it is 2v5 your team should clean up very easily. But again don't build a 1 trick pony if your DM gives it away or the experienced cleric will take advantage of it and prep Deathward.
If your GM is allowing leadership to be crowbarred to it's ultimate extension, then get everyone to take it, and have everyone get a druid as their cohort, who also has leadership, who also has a druid cohort. Each with animal companions. Buy every single one of your cohort army an Awaken scroll, and have each of them cast it on a Roc.
When the fight starts, have every single cohort on the battlefield summon a Cyclops, who nat 20s their "experienced player" cleric. Have the air force grab each one of them that doesn't have the ability to fly, carry them 1000 feet into the air, and drop them.
I mean, it's cheesy as all get-out, but miraculously gaining the Half Fiend template for their whole party without a clear and easy path to said template itself borders on cheese. And you can bet they're doing the same sort of undead-army chain as well, so justify it that way with your GM.
I think taking leadership is going to be the first step. I'm trying to stay away from cheesing it too badly because I'm not that sort of player, I'd prefer to even the fight than for us to just crush them. Another problem I think we will run into is that they are currently pretty much allowed to do what they want, where our party is bound by our moral compass. I was also originally going to play a wizard just to even out the party, but I wanted to play a paladin. So if I die then I'll change to a wizard.
I've talked to the gm since and he said he will make the fight 'fair when it comes to it'. That's all he said, even so far its got uncomfortably meta-gamey for me.
I have a strong suspicion they are getting these 'gifts' from a contract devil, as we know they have made other deals with one before. Maybe killing the devil would negate their gifts... Not sure I'm trying to think of more abstract solutions.
Oh also I completely forgot since it doesn't really apply for out party. But the gm is using a spell points system, so the cleric is essentially spontaneously casting, making him even more dangerous.
I wouldn't worry about it too much then. Do a reasonable amount of ally gathering and trust that the GM is going to be very heavy handed in stacking the odds how the GM wants them stacked. The GM is in the position of deciding who wins, and while that may not be fun, at high level it is inevitable. Trying to keep the players in one game balanced to each other is hard. Trying to keep two simultaneous games balanced to each others power level without them interacting is really hard. At some point a line in the cheese is drawn and that is when GM fiat becomes the deciding factor.
Honestly, since the DM probably wants a better fight than a complete wipe out (given that he's warning the good party, I think this is a fair assumption), here's an idea. Diplomacy. Most large countries in Pathfinder settings are ruled by good or neural forces, ergo generally don't want Evil just going about burning temples and making dragons angry. So bring word, roll some diplomacy, and ask for whatever aid the local ruling class can give probably in terms of funding.
Now make your cohorts item crafters, specifically, tattoos and rune crafters. Layer these with your existing magical weapons and armor arsenal. Go into that fight with magic support via cohorts and equipped like gods.
You mentioned they're probably pulling ahead because their evil is letting them get away with more. So weaponize your morality too, play with the fact that the world at large doesn't typically get along with evil and leverage that against them. It'd be funny if they're getting all proud of their undead horde and you bring an ARMY to combat it. After all, if Evil will win because Good is dumb, you can definitely try to turn it to Good will win because dumb or no, Evil doesn't have many friends.
Edit: Ooh! And Juggernaut's Pauldrons, get tattoos of those if you can, 30 rounds Deadly Juggernaut when your enemy is throwing mook hordes like zombies at you? Good times all around when they're having to chew through DR 10/- to scratch the paint job on you. You and the other Paladin should probably just spring for the actual spell if you can (and know that these zombies aren't just speculative).
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Embrace the Meta.
"Good Guys" win through cooperation. Start recruiting allies. See if you can find an ancient Gold Dragon who will throw in with you. Failing that, maybe a few Archons or Angels. Maybe get yourself an army? Those are always useful.
"Bad Guys" always lose through infighting. Find a way to make that work for you. Set up some situation or dangle some bait that you know will drive a wedge between the other guys. Make one of them an offer he can't refuse to turn on his fellows at the right moment. Better yet, plant evidence that one of them has ALREADY turned on his fellows and watch them destroy each other.
Next session is 3 days from now, if people are interested I'll report in on how it goes.
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Ahoy,
While I am not up to date on my faerun (sp?), I do remember that there are quite a few good guys, and guys who don't like evil kicking things around (Harpers, Purple Dragon knights, order of the radiant heart ). I only state this because you mentioned sacking of temple of Torm ( if this is not correct, ignore my specifics). If you roleplay the "I need help, because half fiends are invading and they want to eat your babies" concept, you can counter all your foes mooks or templates with an army of paladins or other do-gooders (this might require helping certain groups for favors or some roleplay, either way it would be awesome).
If getting a bunch of NPC help is not with your (or your DM's) cup of tea, you could copy the getting a template concept with half-celestial version by praying/serving a being of the light. Or, maybe the brass dragons could infuse you with some half Brass butt kicking...
If all the gathering and blessings don't work, you could make them go on the offensive. Picking a battle site that has "good" aligned traits (consecration and like) and some other nasty traps might even out the fight.
Or if all else fails, you target the biggest jerk with litany of righteousness, then the other paladin smites that target; then you laugh when the smiting paladin does x2 damage and puts that target so far under it's con score you need to make a new math theory to compute it. Seriously, two paladins with the right spells and smites will make someone suffer, bad.
Bacon666, on the flip side of that is they all have smite good.... having 2 paladins doesn't outweigh having a whole party that can smite good, cast have massive ability score boots, cast spells like unholy aura... all on top of having their class abilities. I don't think you have thought it through properly. And I agree half-celestial is an option which would essentially cancel the half-fiend, but as of now it really doesn't fit 3 of the characters, which again may change.
And yeah Cap'n that's basically what I think we're going to do. My character is a member of the Order of the Golden Lion. Next session I'm basically going to start preparations for as much of my order as possible to come down on them.
So far the plan is, recruit allies everywhere and anywhere we can. Hunt down the devil they made deals with and hopefully break the bond between them, reversing the template. As to the actual fight as many people have pointed out litany of righteousness is going to bring the pain. Causing +4x level damage on first hit is going to be BRUTAL.
Have you thought about luring them into acquiring cursed items? While underhanded tactics aren't a paladins usual MO you need to think about the advantages you still have. Powerful and evil characters will often get it into their head that they can do whatever they want without thinking about it. Use this to out think them.
If you exist in the same world you can set traps and ambushes. Try spreading a rumor of a set of holy avengers somewhere, the evil party will hear about that and most likely try to destroy them, but in fact it's just a dungeon that had a ton of monster that have ability drain attacks or deal negative level damage.
You don't really need to out fight them, just out think them. As good characters you have the resources and intelligence of an entire empire, they don't.
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Potions of corruption resistance will serve you well against their smite abilities and unholy blight, along with a couple of their other abilities. oil of bless weapon will also be invaluable. Stuff like unholy aura will screw you over badly so some way to shut them down would be good.
Get your team to all take blindfight, take the fight indoors (so their ability to fly doesn't help) and drop smokesticks, giving you the advantage by letting you reroll concealment rolls that they can't.
Hire or cohort a wizard with the banishment school. He casts spectral hand then starts poking them with it. They're outsiders, so his touch is a no-save no-SR shaken and staggered for half his level in rounds. On top of that his aura of banishment will really screw with any demonic allies they bring to the party.
I'm not all that keen on getting outside help on battle tactics, although it is appreciated. For the fight itself I would personally rather have it best party wins. However I felt like I needed to get help to overcome the VAST power gap we currently have. I'll talk to the players when we have our next session, we might change our minds after that.
And Scott, I wont have access to everyones character details until after the next session. The offer is greatly apprecaited, and like I said before I may take you up on it in a few days.
Just a thought, if you are using Ultimate Campaign they have some mass combat rules. Hiring an army of crossbowmen can do wonders to ensure that the other side doesn't cheat if you want a fair fight.
Personally I think your GM kinda flubbed when he granted the half fiend template to the evil pcs. Clearly they got it by appealing to a higher power (the GM) and then the game becomes who can make better deals with the GM. But i guess that's kinda unavoidable at super high level.
BUT! Now that you know what they are you have a distinct advantage. Try to set the battle location. Find out what they want and get it before they do. Then Hallow the maggufins location and defend it. Also make deals and allies to help you. Definitely recruit some Brass dragons. I might even promise the dragons some (or all) of your enemies gear and a permanent alliance... Depending on the ability of the dragons that is. They have history. The dragons will probably hold a grudge. Dragons are under CRed when played right. They are wickedly powerful and smart.
Also, build an army. Literally BUILD an army. Get a mage with Craft Constuct.
Thanks for some good advice on the fight itself, but what I'm more looking for is some solutions to level the playing field before combat even begins. I think it would be much more rewarding to even the odd by roleplaying and adventure, than super tight strategy alone. So far I know they have angered a clan of brass dragons, and have sacked a temple of Torm. So I would imagine if you start desecrating temples in NE Faerun you're bound to attract some negative attention...
The good guys work together to win.
Ok, you've got 2 hugely powerful allied groups right there. A clan of brass dragons and the faithful of Torm. Go to those 2 groups. "For multiple reasons, I would like to help you get justice and punish that group of evil doers. But I can't do it alone. What I propose is ..."
Get a contingent communication-teleport scheme setup to bring in a wing of dragons and a phalanx of Torm's champions in the 2nd or 3rd round of the fight.
Heck, follow them around to the sites of all their atrocities and collect more allies. "The enemy of my enemy..."
Make a deal with some archons for more assistance at the appointed time.
Also, though I do not normally recommend it, in this case it might work exceptionally well to have your cohorts be specialized in counter spelling (stop his spells from working), dispelling (remove their buffs), dismissing (in case they summon demons), and removing debuffs - also dimensional anchor to keep them from just fleeing. That should essentially shut down their cleric (or at least terribly hinder him). Even with the template then you are 5 (+ allies) vs 3. That shouldn't be a problem.
Ask the priest of Torm to help with some contingency spells (buffs/protections) that would, for example, go off in the presence of 4 strong figures with fiendish blood. Have different contingency triggers for each of you to make it less likely that they can manage to trigger them all early.
They could also help you with divinations about the bad guys. Maybe a divination to learn where or when the fight is fated to take place.
Have them, bards, and anyone else collect all the witnesses and stories about what they have done so you can get better intel on what capabilities they have and what tactics they tend to follow. Make plans to deal with all of those.
Have someone build you a couple of golems that are usually not around, but can be summoned somehow. Golems are hard to take out so make excellent tanks to occupy their attacks and are dangerous enough that they are hard to just ignore.
Since people asked I'll fill in the history of the game. It originally started as a party of 4, which was made up of the current evil party (minus the ranger) + my CN fighter. We were tasked with retrieving a book from a ruined fort which turned out to be an evil relic. I missed the second session for a reason I cant remember, when I came back there was a a trail of corpses, a dead dragon and a paladin sacrificed to Asmodeus. Now my character was not ok with this at all, and I didn't really want to play an evil character so my character left to pursue his own goals.
Tl;dr started out as a normal game and the cleric dragged the rest of a party down with promise of power.
Meanwhile a few other friends had expressed interest in playing again/starting, and I had a craving to play a paladin. So I suggested starting a second party of good/neutral characters in the same region. Technically the evil party shouldn't even know of our existence yet, but I guess its hard to keep the meta low when its competitive.
I agree with you BornofHate, I think he basically granted a request and didn't quite realize what he had done. I should note neither group has played since this thread started.
is their fiendish patron Demonic or Devilish? I'm thinking you negotiate with the other guys and get them to start their own little front of the blood war right here and now.
Lets face it, they're not going to see that coming.
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Without lots of help and/or a more balanced team it sounds like the 'good' team will be curb stomped. Team evil has several force multipliers going in their favor that you lack: the half-fiend template, and the full caster. Be glad they don't have an arcane caster.
If you didn't have those pesky paladins cramping your style I'd suggest using dirty, underhanded tactics. Groups usually separate for 'downtime', and no one can be prepared for an ambush 24x7 ...
At 13-15th level PVP is mostly a conflict between casters. Casters are a force multiplier. Your lack of a full caster will give them the win in any sort of fair fight.
Using the Leadership feat as described above is really just playing multiple characters. E.g. A 13th level Wizard cohort is much more powerful than the 15th level martial combatant they might 'serve'.
Since your party is still shaking itself out, you might consider ways to get your own force multipliers. Here's Tark's guide to building a balanced group. At equal levels the sample party in that guide would mop the floor with your Team Evil, despite the Half-Fiend template.
I second the suggestions about using cleverness, cooperation, and social skills to tilt the odds in your favor. Definitely do some spying, and send an agent to follow them around. That is not improper behavior for a paladin. Make alliances with the friends and family of those whom they murder.
You might also consider preparing some sort of clever team-oriented plan. For example, go to the extra effort and expense to equip your entire team with ways to function in some unpleasant situation (smoke, deeper darkness, rampaging dire wallabies, whatever ...), then have several ways to fill the battlefield with that situation. Maintain good operational security, so they do not learn of your plan.
Seed Drop-Bears around their base of operations.
Thought I might give a bit of an update. So after a few months of cat and mouse, throwing blows at each other by proxy a few things have happened. Last session we almost by accident found their treasure stash. So we looted all their treasure, and stole the evil artifact they were supposed to be protecting. Before we left (for various reasons the two paladins weren't there) the wizard trapped the living daylight out of the place.
Next session they triggered the trap, one of them was killed by phantasmal killer and another was taken out by baleful polymorph. So next session will be the big pvp fight, just currently trying to sort a time for it. As of now going to be the following classes and levels:
13 paladin, 13 paladin, 13 fighter, 13 ranger, 13 blood rager + some other stuff I'm not going to mention right now.
Vs 13 half fiend cleric, 13 half fiend fighter/alchemist/hell knight, 13 rogue/assassin, 12 hell knight and 12 not sure.
I'm not going to reveal some details in case they read this, but I'm fairly confident we're going to win. We have plans to deal with the Cleric, and my Paladin hits evil creatures like an absolute steam train. I'll post back after it's done with how it goes.