I have a character in my home game who is at the final stages of attaining one of their main destinies: to become an incubus.
Long story, but I approve of it, and it's been a hard and long journey.
Ignoring the fact that a demon has to be a mortal chaotic-evil soul that dies and goes to the Abyss to be reborn as a demon, because this is happening through alternate means...
...The average party level is 6. This character is currently 6th level, and will probably still be 6th level when this happens.
I am not at all familiar with the whole "Monster as PC" rules.
Can someone give me a quick crash course on how to set this PC up as an incubus that would be roughly equivalent to a 6th level PC?
Oh! And how would it progress? Class skills? Skill points? Feats?
I'm only asking because the section on Monsters as PCs is vague, but it states to be careful, which I am being, and that if anything, a PC monster should be of a higher CR than the level of the party. But, looking over the incubus template, it's pretty darn powerful. I want this incubus to be less powerful than the incubus entry.
I'm thinking of having the character retain their same ability scores and class skills and feats as when they were a PC, which would lower this incubus' overall numbers, but have them gain the resistances and abilities of an incubus. They would be an incubus but with a big fat asterisk next to the levels that they had when they were a PC.
I mean, I think I have a good plan, but I wanted others' input, as this is a first for me, but I have a feeling others have been through this before.
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I've never done this, so I have no idea how it would go, and thus no real solid advice. That said, I can at least give a basic rundown of how to start a character as a Monster PC, officially anyway:
By the standard Monsters as PC Rules, an ordinary Incubus with PC stats is the equivalent of a 6th level character. So replacing his class levels with the Incubus's hit dice and power set and replace his racial modifiers to stats with +10 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +10 Cha. He should technically lose the stat bonuses from leveling (so a +1 somewhere). He'll have 6+ Int Mod*8 skill points, and should probably buy all the skills he had previously, just for continuity's sake. His class skills, save modifiers, and BAB are all as per a standard 8 HD Outsider, with good Fortitude and Will Saves and Intimidate, Spellcraft, and Stealth as three of the additional Class Skills.
He can then resume raising in level in an ordinary PC class (probably his old one) and every two levels for the next six, he'll gain an extra level, eventually leaving him an Incubus and level 9 in his class when the rest of the PCs are level 12.
That's the sum of how it officially works.
If he's not a spellcaster, I'd just do this, he'll likely see it as a straight upgrade, gaining more than he lost (including +2 BAB), and still not being outrageously more powerful than other PCs. If he is a spellcaster...I'm not actually sure how to do that in a fair way that also lets him keep his spell casting.
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Another option might be to slap a template on him, like the Half-Fiend one ... if there are rules for that for PCs.
The Book of the Damned—Volume 2: Lords of Chaos has information about the rituals required for mortals to become demons; they are detailed on page 45.
Maybe you can build the incubus race in the Advanced Race Guide?
So... not to poop on the parade or anything, but what's wrong with making him play a (Fiendish Heritage) Tiefling sorcerer with a fiendish bloodline like Rakshasa or Oni or Abyssal and picking up the appropriate spells to mimic spell-likes?
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So... not to poop on the parade or anything, but what's wrong with making him play a (Fiendish Heritage) Tiefling sorcerer with a fiendish bloodline like Rakshasa or Oni or Abyssal and picking up the appropriate spells to mimic spell-likes?
Because this is a preexisting 6th level character who's gone through effort to become a Demon and changing them to another PC race would pretty much amount to having lied to them?
This isn't a "how do I play a Demon" thread, it's a "My player is transforming their character into a demon, how do I handle that mechanically?" thread.
. . . This isn't a "how do I play a Demon" thread, it's a "My player is transforming their character into a demon, how do I handle that mechanically?" thread.
Fair enough. I just would suggest in the future that there is a way to do it from level one if one will shoot for flavor over power. (Actually, that's not an entirely fair statement as he may still lose power over his previous build if he's swapping out class levels for outsider hit dice... but I think you get the idea. He could still play the aforementioned Tiefling sorcerer, gaining in power as he goes and hit all the buttons that make him think incubus.)
Well, an incubus is CR 6 but with 8 hit dice, so I guess swap out the six class levels for the 8 hit dice and use class levels from there as you already suggested?
. . . If he's not a spellcaster, I'd just do this, he'll likely see it as a straight upgrade, gaining more than he lost (including +2 BAB), and still not being outrageously more powerful than other PCs. If he is a spellcaster...I'm not actually sure how to do that in a fair way that also lets him keep his spell casting.
Then again, if he is a spellcaster, it's a down grade in power. I would hate to get to level 6 and give up third levels spells. Otherwise Deadmanwalking, what you said earlier is solid, as is Zhayne's half fiend template suggestion. I would lean toward the half fiend as it seems easier, or possibly even a homemade template, using half fiend as a guideline.
I'm outside with my daughter blowing bubbles at the moment, but I have a few ideas I'll post later on the topic when I'm at the computer and not on the phone; I've done similar transformations for PCs in past games.
There's several ways you can do it.
Give him the demon subtype: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype- demon without the summoning ability
Make him a refluffed tiefling.
Give him the sorcerer Abyssal Bloodline.
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One thing I used for a campaign was zerzix's Savage Species Conversions. Helped a lot with the level by level.
In your case, I'd follow Deadmanwalking's advice, but with the following addition: Your player has accomplished his goal, destiny, what have you. The explanation for loss of his spellcasting can be as simple as, "Your rites were a success! You awaken possessed of the demonic power and spirit you sought! Some side-effects may occur..." Loss of spellcasting levels for this character isn't a huge deal - he can always regain them.
I did something similar for a PC once, save he wanted to be a Erinyes. I ended up having the ritual completed which cocooned him for the next 1d4+1 days, the end of which he would emerge. Unfortunately, other mystics of his alignment and opposing alignments, spirits, and so on took notice (think tremors in the Force) and began flocking to the location. The party ended up defending him from attackers, and when he emerged, they had to hightail it before even more folks showed up.
EDITING to add spoilers and a few other topics of conversation
I ran a PC as a succubus. She was a bit over-powered at first, but I just ignored her XP growth and the party grow to her relative CR. It worked out fairly well.
Deadmanwalking described the official stance perfectly.
If you're dealing with an extant spellcaster, however, you've got some pretty tough decisions to make.
First, let's look at an incubus.
So, eight HD, very nice stats, flight, some great moderate-and-low-level spell-likes at will, okay ones 1/day, a very useful pain redoubled supernatural ability, and... greater teleport at will.
I will tell you right now, that the last one, can and/or may very well completely ruin your campaign, unless you're prepared to allow him stupidly excellent mobility and/or he's got phenomenal cosmic buy-in (as my succubus-player did). It has some serious limitations on it (the 50 lbs thing), but it's still quite hazardous to many campaign plots, so just keep that in mind.
thinking of having the character retain their same ability scores and class skills and feats as when they were a PC, which would lower this incubus' overall numbers, but have them gain the resistances and abilities of an incubus. They would be an incubus but with a big fat asterisk next to the levels that they had when they were a PC.
This is certainly a way to do this, and it's not a bad one.
Let's look at what they (likely) have as a sixth level character:
- bard: bardic knowledge +3, performance (countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +2, inspire competence +2, suggestion), versatile performance, loremaster (special 1/day), 2nd level spells (3+/day; 4 known), 1st level spells (4+/day; 4 known), cantrips (at will; 6 known); +4 BAB, good reflex and will, 6+ skills
- cleric: aura (of good?), channel energy (3+/day, 3d6), 3rd level spells (2+d/day), 2nd level spells (3+d/day), 1st level spells (3+d/day), and orisons (4/day at will); +4 BAB, good fortitude and will, 2+ skills
- druid: nature bond, nature sense, wild empathy +6, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, wild shape (2/day), 1st level spells (3+d/day), and orisons (4/day at will); +4 BAB, good fortitude and will, 2+ skills
- fighter: four bonus feats, bravery +2, weapon and armor training; +6 BAB, good fortitude, 2+ skills
- monk: two bonus feats, flurry of blows, stunning fist, unarmed strike, evasion, slow fall 30ft, manuever training, still mind, ki pool (magic), high jump, purity of body
- paladin: auras (good, courage), detect evil at will, smite evil (2/day), divine grace, lay on hands (3d6, two mercies), divine health, divine bond; +6 BAB, good fortitude and will, 2+ skills
- ranger: two favored enemies, two combat style feats, track, wild empathy +3, endurance, one favored terrain, hunter's bond, a 1st level spell (1+/day); +6 BAB, good fortitude and reflex, 6+ skills
- rogue: sneak attack +3d6, trapfinding, trapsense +2, three rogue talents, uncanny dodge; +4 BAB, good reflex, 8+ skills
- sorcerer: two bloodline powers, eschew materials, two bloodline spells, 3rd level spells (3+/day; 1 known), 2nd level spells (5+/day; 2 known plus bloodline), 1st level spells (6+/day; 4 known plus bloodline) cantrips (7 known); +3 bab, best will, 2+ skills
- wizard: arcane bond, arcane school, scribe scroll, one bonus feat, 3rd level spells (1+/day), 2nd level spells (2+/day), 1st level spells (3+/day) cantrips (at will, 4/day); +3 bab, best will, 2+ skills
So, how do the incubus' abilities compare?
Well, on paper, the incubus looks great!
But... as befitting a demon... their abilities are... really selfish and deceptive. Their abilities mostly just benefit themselves, and they don't scale well at all.
Basically, as described, the incubus makes a good tank, skill monkey, and face for its level... but that's about it.
"But... that's three roles!" you might say.
... only sort-of.
- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
With his natural AC and his dexterity, he's basically wearing a non-magical breastplate... but that will never get better, unless he blows a feat to be able to make it so. And unlike most classes that don't have armor, he doesn't have anything that either scales with him as time goes on or that he can use to suddenly increase his AC as needed.
His other defensive abilities are nice, but will be overcome or outweighed by the normal magic items (or spells) the party is going to pick up along the way anyway.
So his role as tank, he's going to focus on a high crit-range weapon (to make the best of his pain redoubled) - not a bad strategy - but, despite his hit points, his AC will tend toward the low side. He'll be hit - a lot - but will survive it better than the rogue. He'll ignore DR/magic with his slams (which do 1d4 dmge each), but he'll have to enchant his high-crit weapon like anyone else for his other melee attacks. A good idea for him might be to focus on two-weapon fighting with two high-crit, keen weapons. I've not done the math, but it sounds good on the surface, despite TWF normally lagging behind*. His high strength helps him, but it's bonus will eventually be equaled or exceeded by the better features of the best-BAB classes.
So currently, he sounds kind of like a slightly weaker ranger as a tank. Not bad, but lacking the class features to perfect that role.
A paladin, properly built fighter (with appropriate weapons), barbarian, or ranger will likely* devastate him in DPR-olympics, although they'll all envy his pain redoubled ability... but they could put it to better use than he, as they all have more feats and/or special abilities to use with it.
*
In other words, he's your new rogue.
However, his spell-like abilities will begin running into a problem very rapidly: the caster level doesn't scale. That means that, as your adventuring career continues, the foes he'll be able to control with them just diminishes rapidly. And spending an action to maybe summon another demon just kind of sucks. And, outside of crushing despair, greater teleport and suggestion, his spell-likes won't be much good in combat anyway.
He also faces the same problem a rogue does in being the skill monkey: the bard. The bard's versatile performance will quickly begin outpacing anything the incubus can do, and it's only exacerbated by the fact that the incbus only gets 6+ skills instead of 8+, like the rogue... although this is possibly offset by the incubus having an intelligence of 16.
So, the outsider type, flight, ... and greater teleport.
First, I'm letting you know: the outsider type, his strong will save, and his special features mean, unlike the typical face or tank, he'll be really hard to turn. That's great! But this comes with a few very important drawbacks as well, namely the inability to receive humanoid-only buffs (weakening his ability in the front-lines), and the inability to be raised from the dead... which is pretty major, if you ask me.
Second, flight really isn't an issue. If your party has a caster, you're going to run into that right about now anyway - the incubus can just do it a bit easier and more readily.
Third, greater teleport is the biiiiiiiiiig potential elephant in the room. While fifty pounds is a pretty strict limit, it's easily bypassed with a bag of holding or two (two type IIs could carry four people on average) or, worse yet, a portable hole (no weight limit pocket-hanky-to-doorway). Now, that said, without that very specific trick, the fifty pound weight limit is extremely prohibitive. This is the only ability that will remain limitlessly powerful and potentially campaign derailing throughout the incubus' career. However, very importantly, if you don't allow "scry and fry" tactics, it's not going to instantly murder your baddies, and instead functions mostly as a "get out of jail free... now... by yourself" card... and the probable end to all wilderness-travel-based adventures. Plus, with sufficient "buy-in" (and willingness to alter the character decisions for the sake of the party/game), this really isn't that big a deal.
So, what your job is, as GM, is to check and see how all of this balances out against itself.
I'll tell you how it played out for us: very well. We used a succubus as I'd said, instead, but she focused on becoming a monk (she was lawful good*...) and that pretty much balanced things right out on its own (), though she later got additional abilities due to story reasons, and we don't really pay attention to balance anyway.
*
In your case, I'd follow Deadmanwalking's advice, but with the following addition: Your player has accomplished his goal, destiny, what have you. The explanation for loss of his spellcasting can be as simple as, "Your rites were a success! You awaken possessed of the demonic power and spirit you sought! Some side-effects may occur..."
This is true. One alternate way of explaining it is that the process literally consumed the magic that they had built up within themselves into the process of transforming them - tranforming their mind, their body, their soul, their spirit - into something new and powerful, and has become their spell-like abilities instead.
Loss of spellcasting levels for this character isn't a huge deal - he can always regain them.
That... is not true. Losing even a single caster level is a pretty huge deal. Losing eight of them? Horrid. He should probably avoid being a caster, though taking levels of eldritch knight actually might not be a bad idea to buff his CL and keep his BAB and fortitude up. His "skill and will" would unfortunately suffer, but having a competitive CL and BAB could be worth it - besides, he doesn't need more class skills, he has fine ones already that he can keep at maximum ranks, because Pathfinder; he'd just have to be more selective. :D
First off, thank you everyone for your input. I have read every post, and it is all excellent information. I knew I could count on the community to come up with some superb ideas. Not only are you giving me good ideas on this subject, but you are inspiring other aspects of the campaign.
A post of the players build might help with planning something.
Yes, of course. That would have helped. :)
He is a 6th-level aasimar cleric of Calistria. The most recent milestone is that his alignment has changed to chaotic-evil.
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That... is not true. Losing even a single caster level is a pretty huge deal. Losing eight of them? Horrid. He should probably avoid being a caster, though taking levels of eldritch knight actually might not be a bad idea to buff his CL and keep his BAB and fortitude up. His "skill and will" would unfortunately suffer, but having a competitive CL and BAB could be worth it - besides, he doesn't need more class skills, he has fine ones already that he can keep at maximum ranks, because Pathfinder; he'd just have to be more selective. :D
That's a valid point and you're correct - my phrasing was poor. I should have said, "Whatever he's losing isn't a big deal, as he's getting to play a non-standard character he seems to really want to," instead.
Definitely agree regarding Eldritch Knight. It's one of my favorite prestige classes.
Post I've been working on for the last hour just got eaten by the server involuntarily logging me off. EDIT: longer, it's been closer to an hour and a half; I updated my post when Da'ath posted.
All I had saved at the time was "1st lvl spell (true strike (OR bane)), 2nd lvl spell (protection from energy)".
I'm going to go be ticked off while doing something else, now.
EDIT 2: I was really proud of how that one was coming so far, too - showing the evolution of an aasimar to an incubus, having linked a bunch of stuff, going over the different domains... blarg.
Ryan, could you tell us if he's got a standard aasimar and what domains he has and stuff like that, please?
:)
...showing the evolution of an aasimar to an incubus ...That's "devolution." ;)
That's not evolution at all.
"My face is an evolution!"
OR (I couldn't decide)
"My face is a joke!"
OR (more of 'em!)
"E-volution? Try Meh-volution!"*
OR (they never end!)
"E-volution? Try Re-volution!"*
* These two need not be contradictory. :)
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Trying this again. It's not going to be as good as the original, because, at this point, I'm tired and don't care as much.
On the other hand, it's probably a little cleaner, as I know more where I'll end up this time 'round.
Cleric Aasimar gives us something to work with. The more specifics (feats, skills, ability scores, etc, the better, of course, but this is something).
Let's look at an aasimar, presuming the standard (if it's not a standard aasimar, this is still relevant just to get an idea of how things change). We'll then change it to an incubus, and note any potential problems that I see now that I haven't noted previously.
aasimar (standard)
1) outsider (native)
2) +2 WIS and CHA
3) speed 30
4) resistance (acid, cold, electricity) 5
5) +2 diplomacy and perception
6) (1/day) daylight
7) darkvision 60
aasimar (standard) to incubus
1) outsider (native> chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar) {beware the extraplanar subtype! Banishment is now very possible, and without planeshift or something that can re-summon incubus...}
2) +2 WIS and CHA> +10 STR +4 DEX +8 CON +6 INT +4 WIS +10 CHA {this means that he increases his current WIS by +2 and his current CHA by +8}
3) speed 30; GAIN: fly 50 (average)
4) resistance (acid, cold, electricity>fire) 5>10; GAIN immune (electrictiy, poison)
5) +2>+8 diplomacy>intimidate and perception
6) (1/day) daylight> crushing despair, summon (full-round action, 40% chance to summon two CR 4s, or a CR 6 encounter/ally); GAIN: (at will) charm person, detect thoughts, greater teleport (+50lbs only), suggestion; (constant) tongues
7) darkvision 60
additional racial gain
8) change shape {effectively at-will alter self but without the stat-alteration}
9) telepathy 100
10) pain redoubled
11) DR 10/cold iron or good; SR 11+CR {WARNING: Spell resistance can be just as much a hindrance as a help - it requires a standard action each round to lower it... which is necessary, if you want to receive many beneficial spells!}
12) +6 nAC
13) Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons {HOWEVER: an incubus lacks any armor proficiency, as previously noted, and would lose the cleric's proficiency with a whip}
So, that's a lot of change!
Now, let's look at what the cleric has.
Level 6 clerics features:
1) aura (of good? chaos) {this effectively changes to chaos and evil}
2) channel energy (3+/day, 3d6)
3) domains (or subdomains) of Calistria
4) spells
- 3rd level spells (2+d/day)
- 2nd level spells (3+d/day)
- 1st level spells (3+d/day), and orisons (4/day at will)
Level 6 clerics level-traits
4) +4 BAB (moderate)
5) +5 fortitude and will (good), +2 reflex (poor)
6) 2+ skills
Level 6 clerics level-traits to 8 (or 6, if one-to-one) HD outsider traits
4) +4 BAB (moderate)->+8 (or +6) BAB (best)
5) +5 fortitude and will (good), +2 reflex (poor)
6) 2+> 6+ skills
Now strait up dropping the incubus' outsider HD and leaving them with cleric HD is a pretty good deal for them - in fact, it's a really good deal for them, effectively giving them eight levels to play with, compared to other incubi. However, they're clearly much more powerful than most other characters of the same kind.
A quick rule of thumb is to compare them to other templates or creatures of similar "power" without hit dice (hard to come by, let me tell you).
In some ways, incubi are like hopped-up noble drow. Noble Drow notes
<snipy> Jason Bulmahn states that Drow Noble characters should be one level less than characters of standard races <snip-o>
Running a quick look at the half fiend and simple fiendish templates shows a lot of comparable elements to them.
So, I'd eye-ball an effective "level adjustment" (though that doesn't exist now) of about 2 or maaaaaaaaaybe 3 (though that's really harsh for what you gain) if you go with the "ignore the HD, grant the other stuff" bonuses.
If you completely drop the ability score increases, he definitely shouldn't have a "level penalty" more than 1 - not even all those fabulous spell-likes do that much for him, as he levels up, later, for the reasons I've mentioned.
If you go with the "you're now an incubus!" route, you might leave in a few "former cleric" perks, like being able to activate magic items as if he still was a cleric, or perhaps access to some of the domain or subdomain special abilities that he had access to.
I might suggest trading some of the more potentially problematic spell-likes for domain spells of his choice. Perhaps changing the greater teleport to a seventh level domain spell that you (the GM) feel is more appropriate.
And/or, if you're going to drop the spell-casting (not your original plan, but I'm theorizing here), perhaps have him still able to channel energy as before and/or have his domain abilities, but drop the summon spell-like, replacing it with a 1/day spell-like from one of his two domains of a maximum level equal to half his current hit dice (he chooses which spell each time). On a related note, while eldritch knight () specifically calls out requirements of (and benefits for) arcane casting, it could easily be restructured as caster level increase for spell-like abilities. Similarly, a pain taster and master spy might work really well with his new abilities and role also.
Dang it. Now I want to play a non-evil, non-extraplanar incubus of Calistria with channeling and domain abilities instead of greater teleport.
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EDIT 2: I was really proud of how that one was coming so far, too - showing the evolution of an aasimar to an incubus, having linked a bunch of stuff, going over the different domains... blarg.
Ryan, could you tell us if he's got a standard aasimar and what domains he has and stuff like that, please?
If you can gather up the wherewithal to do it again, I would love to see it. I have the evolution transition framework in place, but it isn't set in stone, and needs fleshed-out.
The domains are the Luck and Trickery domains. He is heavily aligned with Calistria's values and morals.
EDIT: Whoops, you already did.
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Dude ... it's a joke.That's not evolution at all....showing the evolution of an aasimar to an incubus ...That's "devolution." ;)
I know its a joke. I was trying to add to the humor while being correct but I couldn't find the right emoticon*. So I hoped it would get through on its own.
*The Emoticons to star in Transformer's 4
If you can gather up the wherewithal to do it again, I would love to see it. I have the
evolutiontransition framework in place, but it isn't set in stone, and needs fleshed-out.The domains are the Luck and Trickery domains. He is heavily aligned with Calistria's values and morals.
EDIT: Whoops, you already did.
Thanks. The one above isn't as thorough as the other one - my son has been distracting me a lot, and it's really hard to do all that again.
And don't worry about the "whoops" - I get ninja'd that way all the time.
Very briefly ():
Luck and Trickery are actually a surprise! I thought for sure it would have been lust and/or chaos, though trickery works really well for an incubus. Neat.
So, glancing at the domains a little bit, what he'd be giving up is...
Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
1st lvl spell (true strike)
2nd lvl spell (aid)
and
Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth are class skills. {although bluff and stealth would still be class skills}
Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
1st lvl spell (disguise self)
2nd lvl spell (invisibility)
Of those, disguise self could be extremely useful for clothing changes, while invisibility could agument his already impressive stealth.
True strike and aid are good combat buffs.
The only skill he'd lose (normally) would be disguise... and with his bonus from alter self he doesn't really need it that badly.
The Bit of Luck power is extremely useful, though not really good at buffing the self, but copy cat can be effectively gained in many other ways.
The biggest loss would be (in my opinion) the Good Fortune ability gained at eighth level. (Well, that and the spells lost.)
The variable 1/day spell is still a great idea... until you hit 18th level, and he's got a 1/day miracle in his pocket... as a spell-like ability. Then you're looking at something very broken, unless you enforce normal spell costs, despite the normal tendencies of both miracle and spell-like abilities. If you're never getting up to 18th level, than you don't have to worry about it, really.
One thing I want to mention: though I'm shy of permitting Greater Teleport... you don't have to be. You know your campaign and players better than I. The only reason I'm dubious of it, is not from personal experience* as much as the stories of the boards and a decent understanding of how that happens.
* I've had a number of players get access to greater teleport and go crazy with it... but since I wasn't running an AP, it didn't affect me at all, and I was entirely able to run with it until they more or less got themselves back on track.
Oh, and the "level adjustment" should decrease as the party gets over-all more powerful, because those goodies are going to come in less and less handy compared to his comrades' class abilities.
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An alternative approach is to use the Rite Publishing method. They've put out some nice products using the concept of Monster Classes. You gain levels in your "race", gradually acquiring racial powers. After a certain amount of levels you've basically got the Bestiary entry. After that you can gain in-theme powers BEYOND the Bestiary entry.
Powers that would be disruptive at lower levels (such as the at-will teleport) are located at the higher levels of the racial class, and stuff like the vast ability modifiers are spread over multiple levels.
I particularly like the gargoyle, giant and ironborn races.
An alternative approach is to use the Rite Publishing method. They've put out some nice products using the concept of Monster Classes. You gain levels in your "race", gradually acquiring racial powers. After a certain amount of levels you've basically got the Bestiary entry. After that you can gain in-theme powers BEYOND the Bestiary entry.
Powers that would be disruptive at lower levels (such as the at-will teleport) are located at the higher levels of the racial class, and stuff like the vast ability modifiers are spread over multiple levels.
I particularly like the gargoyle, giant and ironborn races.
I don't know, that sounds exactly like Rite Publishing method. For example the Minotaur from In the Company of Monsters at 6th level is equivalent to the Bestiary minotaur based on its 6HD, but starts out much lower building up until achieving the default minotaur at 6th and keeps progressing up to 20th level.
Best way I have found to do it is like this. Incubus CR is what? A 6th level wizard = CR 5. Incubus CR 6.
Ability Score Adjustments:
Str +10, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +10
They lose all their previous class levels, etc. Treat the character as suffering from Amnesia if you do it at 6th level.
Let them learn their powers. while the others are level 6, and at level 7 give him the rewards. It isn't easy playing a character with amnesia.
It works well in my games, where I allow characters play monsters.
I even have rules for playing a Unique Outsider (Devil, Demon, Angel, Archon, Demodand, Asura, Azata, Nightshade, etc).
"A character suffering from amnesia cannot remember things; his name, his skills, and his past are all equal mysteries. He can build new memories, but any memories that existed before he became an amnesiac are suppressed." You can lessen the memories to be fragments
"Worse, the amnesiac loses all class abilities, feats Give him his feats, and skill ranks for as long as his amnesia lasts let him keep his physical skills, but not his mental ones . He retains his base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, combat maneuver bonus, combat maneuver defense, total experience points, and hit dice (and hit points), but everything else is gone until the amnesia is cured. If a character gains a class level while suffering from amnesia, he may use any abilities gained by that class level normally. If the class level he gained was of a class he already possess levels in, he gains the abilities of a 1st-level character of that class, even though he is technically of a higher level in that class. If his amnesia is later cured, he regains all the full abilities of this class, including those gained from any levels taken while he was suffering from amnesia."
This way it allows roleplay, and a feeling of his abilities :)
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For all those interested, I made a decision on how I'm going to do this.
But, first, a clarification. At the beginning of the thread, I stated:
I have a character in my home game who is at the final stages of attaining one of their main destinies: to become an incubus.
Long story, but I approve of it, and it's been a hard and long journey.
That context is misleading. He does not know this is going to happen. This is his destiny that I chose for him.
I stated that I approved of it, simply to prevent anyone from trying to talk me out of it, and the destiny part refers to what he's been wrestling with - specifically, a succubus.
So, why was I misleading? Because he is a long-time and close friend of mine. When we started this campaign, he described his character as a fallen one. A good cleric of Calistria - perhaps even a little naive and martyrish. Naturally, he encountered a succubus, who marked him and overtook him.
He loves her, and she loves him, but he has been desperately grasping for ways to cure her of her demon taint - in order to save her. He has demonstrated his willingness to put her interests and well-being ahead of his own. All the while, he has slowly been slipping. It's unfolded in dramatic and heart-wrenching ways. I have been testing his loyalties and inner strength.
So, what I'm going to do is, he was led to believe that he had to recover a specific kind of scimitar, in a long-abandoned devil stronghold. If he slays his succubus with this scimitar, but then revives her, when she comes back, she will be free of the demon taint.
However, he was told this by an incubus. I described the incubus in full, and even had the incubus do some demonish things to make him suspicious. But, when talking to the incubus, he didn't question the incubus' motives at all. The group's sense motive check failed miserably against the incubus' +16 bluff check (which I did not roll, as to not alert the players in a meta-gaming way - just took 10).
The incubus wasn't in any kind of disguise at all. Just standing there. My friend's character basically had a couple of lines of dialog with this incubus, and as soon as the incubus said that he himself removed the taint from a succubus in this method, my friend said, "Can you point it out on a map? K. Thanks. Bye!"
He didn't question anything, or look into anything, and just bought the whole story. He didn't even let the incubus finish speaking.
Due to all of the soul-wrenching torture he's endured from the succubus, my friend's character already almost looks like an incubus - just minus the wings and cloven hooves.
They are about to start a dungeon crawl through this abandoned devil stronghold. When they get to the end, they will find the devils' horde of demon-fighting toys. Among them will be this scimitar.
We'll roleplay through him slaying his succubus, but as soon as the succubus falls unconscious, I will describe his transformation as the demon taint leaves the succubus' body, travels up through the scimitar, and transforms him into an incubus.
I'll hand him a print-out of the incubus entry from the Bestiary, and tell him that he is now an incubus, and that is his character sheet. The incubus entry is pretty powerful, and it exemplifies qualities his character already has, so I'm sure he will be happy.
I'm not doing all this for any vicious reason, or to be a nasty GM. My friend thrives on epic stuff like this, and leans towards the dark a lot.
I'll leave a way out, though. The rules with the scimitar are that all he has to do is slay a creature of the opposite alignment, and in a sort of equalization, the demon taint will be pulled out of his body again - leaving him as just his normal cleric self again, but minus all the scars.
So:
- If you slay a demon with this scimitar, you become a demon yourself - whatever kind of demon your character was most like.
- To reverse that, you need to slay someone of the opposite alignment - namely lawful-good, which will equalize and remove the demon taint.
This second part will also test my friend's wherewithal.
I think he'll like this. He's kind of a dark individual, but also very caring. He'll see that his character made the ultimate sacrifice for the succubus, and attained his goal, and has a way out if he does not like being an incubus.
Congratulations on the epic story! And I hope you guys enjoy it!
I am curious... what's going to happen to the succubus when the demon taint is removed? What will she become?
(My vote is a nymph, though I could see arguments such as an archon or something similar due to the "opposite alignment" thing.)
Let us know how it goes!
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I am curious... what's going to happen to the succubus when the demon taint is removed? What will she become?
(My vote is a nymph, though I could see arguments such as an archon or something similar due to the "opposite alignment" thing.)
Shoot. I haven't thought about that. I am certainly open for suggestions on what an untainted succubus would become, and why. I'll throw that out to the community for suggestions...
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The boring, most likely answer is human, but a campaign is nothing, if not about the out of the ordinary, so lets get weird. My vote is going with Nymph for theming and keeping the NPC survivable. She Could also be some kind of weird Pseudo-Forlarren if you're up to some more home brewing.
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What about just having her be dead to really twist the knife right in there?
Then throw on top of that a quest to the great wall where slain demons are reabsorbed. Just because her taint was doesn't mean she's all good now. She had to be evil to become a succubus in the first place (Barring one exception) and the abyss is the plane she has the most association with.
If she doesn't become a demon again herself perhaps he can retrieve her battered and broken soul shell and take it before Pharasma where on bended knee he asks for the Rite of Rebirth. She will be reborn and he must go seeking her out .
You know just off the top of my head.
What about just having her be dead to really twist the knife right in there?
Then throw on top of that a quest to the great wall where slain demons are reabsorbed. Just because her taint was doesn't mean she's all good now. She had to be evil to become a succubus in the first place (Barring one exception) and the abyss is the plane she has the most association with.
If she doesn't become a demon again herself perhaps he can retrieve her battered and broken soul shell and take it before Pharasma where on bended knee he asks for the Rite of Rebirth. She will be reborn and he must go seeking her out .
You know just off the top of my head.
I actually presumed she was going to be dead, no matter what - the incubus never mentioned that the cleric would... you know... lose his casting ability (and thus cease to be a cleric).
I would have totally sided with the idea of her still being chaotic evil... if it weren't for the fact that, from my understanding, the scimitar actually draws that directly out of the target and shoves it into yourself.
The ultimate problem with that is that it seems like she would become... neutral... though not because she's devoted to neutrality, but just because her alignment was taken away.
Unfortunately, there's nothing "on theme" with a succubus in any of the other outsider kinds that I know of, except a pairaka div - that's why I went with nymph, because it's the closest that I could come.
If you went with the true neutrality angle, she might be an aeon (theletos being the CR 7 one), or psychopomp (specifically a vanth for the CR), but that's not really a good match, thematically.
azata have a great pun-laden, "brijidine" (), though the power increase is striking; lillend is the same CR and kind of works, due to being obsessed with beauty, but then you have cosmological questions that abound with transforming a chaotic evil outsider into a chaotic good outsider by removing the demonic essence; that said, I could certainly see it as a kind of "boon" from Calistria for following his desires to their ultimate conclusion. Alignment fits.
Archon, of course, is the opposite alignment, with a legion archon being the same CR... but not only does that not feel very satisfying, on-theme with the character, or probable ("I stole your demon essence - you've a magic fire sword and armor now!"), I'm pretty sure that it doesn't really work for what you're going for, although the pathos of having his method to no longer being a demon being right there is pretty huge.
So far, for my money, there's nothing that matches the power of the nymph, thematically - CR 7, the very epitome of "gorgeous creature", and now completely devoid of demonic taint, but with the ability to inspire others. Even similar ability score arrays! It comes with the built-in benefits of explaining where his divine magic went (she now has divine magic - druidic divine magic), and having her terrified of a demonic lover (because everyone knows how that works out for them). If you wanted an outsider variant, and you weren't worried about a total down-grade, you always have the fire nymph, but they're so much less that it's really hard to justify.
Since you indicated that he became chaotic neutral, there's always the proteans (naunet for CR 7)... literally beauty has become the beast... but I think you indicated that he's just recently become chaotic evil... which means... qlippoth (specifically a shoggti), a demodand (though none are an appropriate CR), or... demon... specifically a succubus. Which puts her right back where she started, fulfills an incubus' desires, causes rifts of betrayal between them, and generally fulfills all of the conditions: his alignment enters her, more demons spread into the world, and he is ruined for no good purpose. Of course, that also gives them a twisted "happy ending" of sorts, although it's certainly not what either wanted.
Beyond that, petitioners (spirits of the dead) and oni or rakshasa (literally evil spirits encased in living flesh) actually make sense, as does a samsaran... perhaps a samasaran cleric of Calistria...
In any event, so it's not just a total wash of pain and anguish, I'd suggest that something go right, and she be transformed into a nymph. Though I'd still not be surprised if she was just straight-up dead. Sounds exactly like what a demon would do.
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To reverse that, you need to slay someone of the opposite alignment - namely lawful-good, which will equalize and remove the demon taint.
How about a character of Lawful Good alignment must willingly sacrifice him or herself to do so. Two wrongs don't make a right, however a rightful sacrifice could.
Although in the Demon world, that lawful good character would become the demon. Effectively changing places.
Or if you want to have more fun, I will have a document finished today that might prove useful :)
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Tacticslion has an excellent post.
I'd like to add an extra suggestion: CN or CG outsider that happens to be identical to a nymph except for type and getting Cleric spellcasting and the Charm domain instead of Druid casting and Wild Empathy. You can name the nymph-outsider if you like or just say it's a unique creature, since the sword appears also unique. This represents his identity before getting dragged into this demonic transformation - you indicated that he had at least mentally begun the transformation even before using the sword to strip the succubus' nature away. As a happy-ish ending this and her turning human make the most sense, and this is more interesting than human.
However if you want ultimate pathos/knife twisting she definitely ought to be simply killed or remain somehow CE/demonic (since he's already tainted by CE and can't properly purify her).
I also second the thought that he needs to find a LG creature to willingly sacrifice itself to reverse the transformation. You shouldn't be able to redeem yourself through an evil act.
Looking at the nymph, that is an excellent non-demonic equivalent. That idea is the leading idea right now. But, reading the past couple posts, the three main ideas are:
- He slays the succubus with the scimitar. The demon taint travels into his body and turns him into an incubus, and her into a nymph. I can totally see a scene in my head where, once he comes to grips with being a chaotic-evil incubus demon, he looks down and sees with relief that his lover still exists and is alive. But, from her point of view, she looks up and sees in horror that her lover is an incubus. I can totally play that out, that she is horrified of him, and wants to get away, but loves him, so she is torn.
- She is turned into a human. Her wings, tail, and horns falls off, and she is weak from the transformation. She's not angry, as she still has her lover, and comes to terms with what he did. But, this group of adventurers has had run-ins with both demons and devils in this campaign so far. They are known by both sides. So, they are hunted, and now she is a fragile helpless human. He must protect her.
Along with:
- She is turned into a human, but is still chaotic-evil. He must keep her safe and alive long enough to help her improve her alignment - a sort of retraining - for fear of her dying a mortal death and becoming a succubus again.
I have returned form the dead to take over the worl- oh, holy craaaaaap! *its head rolls off the side of the screen*
No, but seriously, I'm necro'ing this because I recently found this in my old posts lists, and I'm hecka-curious how this turned out.