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Before I get side tracked by my rambling, here's google docs link
So, I've always loved lizardfolk. They are just plain cool and full of flavor. I've included them to one extent or another in every campaign I've ever run. There's just one problem: The lizardfolk option given for players is mechanically boring.
In order to correct this, I set out to make a more interesting version. They are a bit different, and designed to have more versatility and uniqueness. There's also plenty of alternate race traits and racial feats, so lots of options. In terms of power, the aim was "within reason," so somewhere between humans and Aasimar.
I've also included several pages of fluff to help flesh them out and keep them as interesting as possible. I wanted them to retain the tribal society roots, but also be a bit more complex and not just the usual archetypical native/tribal/savage race.
As always, your feedback is greatly appreciated.
They seem extremely strong. Swim, climb, and amphibious? Natural armor? Good SLAs? And, heavens above, perception is always a class skill.
I may just have no sense of balance, but they do seen very strong.
Dotting for when I have time for a proper look at the race.
They seem extremely strong. Swim, climb, and amphibious? Natural armor? Good SLAs? And, heavens above, perception is always a class skill.
I may just have no sense of balance, but they do seen very strong.
It's a judgement call, and I'm not 100% on a few parts myself, most notably cure light wounds.
In my judgment, climb is good, swim is a bonus, and amphibious is either a necessity or a very rarely used feature that might come up once, depending on the campaign. Either way, they are inherently separate abilities. You can't climb underwater. As such, the combination adds versatility rather than raw power, which is why I don't mind having them both on the same race.
The SLAs are definitely quite good. Cure might be a bit much, but the other two should be fine in my opinion. Maybe I'm just being unfair comparing them to some of the other races and options in the race builder.
Perception as a class skill? Nice, but not as good as the flat bonus some races get.
This isn't to say that I don't see where you are coming from. These guys are on the higher side of the power scale for player races, but in my judgment, no worse than a tiefling, and less than an aasimar or drow. But I could be wrong.
I will be getting a chance to see them in action in a couple of days. We'll see how that turns out.
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I also think the movement is a little extreme. I've played with some homebrew races before and that sort of thing can go pretty fast. In my case I had skinks (small lizardfolk) with speed 40, which turned out to be extremely powerful, compared to the 20-30 speed small/medium armor PCs.
I also had a race of otter-people that worked a bit better. They got a swim speed and double the normal time you can hold your breath, but not amphibious. I did not want some PCs to be able to stay underwater indefinitely at level 1 while others couldn't. But with the racial bonus to Swim, it was something they used extensively and it was a useful but balanced ability. It was in a jungle setting, so following rivers was one of the few reliable ways to not get lost.
I dislike perception as a class skill mainly because it takes away the class skill benefit to rogues/rangers/monks etc, who should be better at perception than other classes IMO. A flat bonus doesn't diminish those classes.
EDIT: my advice would be to reduce the movement options a bit. At level 1 having either a Climb OR a Swim speed is already quite powerful. Having both is extreme, and amphibious too. However, choosing a climb or swim speed, and getting the other one with a racial feat, seems like it's still good. Amphibious doesn't strike me as a feat you can really pick up later, but it might be a racial trait that you really have to pay for.
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Anyway, I just read through the rest. It's an interesting race, overall. I think both the shamanic training feats and the desolate soul feats are pretty nifty. I think the power level of those is just fine.
Regarding the Toxic, Breath Weapon and Prehensile tail stuff: I feel like you might be adding too much special stuff to one single race. (I know, tieflings are crazy. I think core races are better basis for comparison.)
Because real-life komodos are poisonous in a really weird way, I think it might be nice to keep the toxic bite, but make it a fast-acting disease effect, rather than a poison effect. Likewise, it should combine with good saves against disease for the komodo.
I'll agree that these seem overloaded.
I'd lower all speeds (including base) to 20ft. Reduce the spell options to cantrips with a single level 1 spell. Cut skill training, there's traits they can take for that. And there's still so much in this race.
This has a lot of similarity to Nagaji, which I consider a well-designed race. Maybe keep it closer to that. You gotta lose some of your animal abilities for opposable thumbs, after all.
They seem too powerful to me, for the reasons others have mentioned.
What does the RP total come out to?
I dislike perception as a class skill mainly because it takes away the class skill benefit to rogues/rangers/monks etc, who should be better at perception than other classes IMO. A flat bonus doesn't diminish those classes.
But that's also part of why I went with the class skills versus flat bonuses. A flat bonus stacks with everything. It's inherently more powerful, and represents actual physical traits. Class skills represent training and experience, exactly what the komodo are picking up in the wilds, something which mirrors but doesn't particularly enhance the abilties of rogue/ranger/monk etc.
I also think the movement is a little extreme. I've played with some homebrew races before and that sort of thing can go pretty fast. In my case I had skinks (small lizardfolk) with speed 40, which turned out to be extremely powerful, compared to the 20-30 speed small/medium armor PCs.I also had a race of otter-people that worked a bit better. They got a swim speed and double the normal time you can hold your breath, but not amphibious. I did not want some PCs to be able to stay underwater indefinitely at level 1 while others couldn't. But with the racial bonus to Swim, it was something they used extensively and it was a useful but balanced ability. It was in a jungle setting, so following rivers was one of the few reliable ways to not get lost...
...my advice would be to reduce the movement options a bit. At level 1 having either a Climb OR a Swim speed is already quite powerful. Having both is extreme, and amphibious too. However, choosing a climb or swim speed, and getting the other one with a racial feat, seems like it's still good. Amphibious doesn't strike me as a feat you can really pick up later, but it might be a racial trait that you really have to pay for.
I just don't see the combination being an issue. As I said, in my mind, they don't really stack. They are two useful abilities which while in the same category, are not complimentary, just like a bonus to AC and a bonus to will saves.
To illustrate my reasoning, consider a race with the gliding wing ability, which lets it have permanent non-magical feather fall and move at 60 ft per round while falling. Give it a swim speed, and you give it a new option, but it really doesn't interact much with wings. But give it a climb speed and you have a dangerous synergy, which at the very least should cost you dearly.
As for the amphibious thing, I don't see it as being that powerful. Don't get me wrong, it's useful, but in my experience, it either makes you the water guy (in the same way that the rogue is the trap guy) and gives you a unique way to support the party, or it's going to be one of those campaigns and everyone really needs it or something just as good. It's very useful and possibly a lifesaver in rare circumstances, or just a prerequisite for an underwater campaign.
Anyway, I just read through the rest. It's an interesting race, overall. I think both the shamanic training feats and the desolate soul feats are pretty nifty. I think the power level of those is just fine.
Good to know. I like those as well, but always have my doubts until I see them in action.
Regarding the Toxic, Breath Weapon and Prehensile tail stuff: I feel like you might be adding too much special stuff to one single race. (I know, tieflings are crazy. I think core races are better basis for comparison.)
I don't think that alternate race traits and racial feats can be too much as long as the race keeps a consistent flavor. More possibilities are good. Hell, the core races get more alternate race traits and race feats than this.
And As for tiefling, I merely see that as an equivalent power level. I could also compare these to elves and dwarves. I know I certainly wouldn't feel overshadowed being the elf or dwarf in a party with a komodo.
Now if I start comparing them to svirfneblin, then start worrying.
Because real-life komodos are poisonous in a really weird way, I think it might be nice to keep the toxic bite, but make it a fast-acting disease effect, rather than a poison effect. Likewise, it should combine with good saves against disease for the komodo.
I know what you mean, but poison is just simpler, and uses readily available traits and mechanics, while creating a fast acting disease is going to be a complicated balancing act.
Why does everyone give amphibious to reptiles, they are not amphibians. Maybe the ability to hold their breath for extended periods of time but not amphibious. That is something that makes me crazy in games.
Reptiles also don't have human level intelligence, magic, or breasts.
But seriously, I understand where you are coming from. In reality, Komodo would be classified not as reptiles, but as amphibians. They are a throwback to long extinct species which resembled reptiles, but reproduced in water, a trait which held them back and allowed actual reptiles to outcompete them.
But in this alternate reality, intelligence and magic helped the Komodo compete with their non-amphibious rivals and survive to today. And given the primitive state of science in your typical pathfinder setting, they would be probably be viewed as "lizardfolk" by the other races due to their resemblance to lizards, without much thought going into proper classification.
What does the RP total come out to?
For what it's worth, they have an RP value of 13.
I get where you are coming from with the movement types being different, and therefore not a problem. But I still think you might be underestimating the power of amphibious.
Amphibious characters can disappear under the water where many threats can't follow. And they can grab a non-amphibious character and drag them down to die. That's hardly something that can be brushed aside.
Still, I like what I'm seeing here. Tons of flavor, loads of options. Overall, I approve.
You could also called them the Ora. That's the Indonesian word for them.
I admit I skimmed over the fluff, but I don't really understand why a race of lizard people have all these abilities. Why do they get a caster level bonus on the best spell school? Why is the caster level trait better than that of native outsiders, creatures innately magical? Why do they get the amphibious trait and a swim speed when the only aquatic feature they have is a strong tail? Why do they have a climb speed when most of them live in cities, underground, or in wetlands? Why do they have an Intelligence bonus and a penalty to Wisdom when they have a culture with tribal influences -- shouldn't that be the opposite? Why is survival and tribal culture a major theme of this race and yet they don't receive any Survival bonuses? Why do they get a Perception class skill when, being reptiles, they probably don't have very good hearing and sight?
When I look at a race's crunch, I should be able to say "Yeah, that makes sense." Here, it just raises questions. It seems like you're trying to accomplish too much with this race. The race feels very unfocused at best and munchkiny at worst. Pick a theme for your race and stick with it!
I get where you are coming from with the movement types being different, and therefore not a problem. But I still think you might be underestimating the power of amphibious.
Amphibious characters can disappear under the water where many threats can't follow. And they can grab a non-amphibious character and drag them down to die. That's hardly something that can be brushed aside.
Still, I like what I'm seeing here. Tons of flavor, loads of options. Overall, I approve.
That an amphibious character can hide under the water is, at best, situational. And it does nothing for the rest of the party. It's basically a way of running away, something any character can do in a lot of situations anyway. And that's assuming it is safe in the water, which is never a good assumption.
It's only an issue if the whole party can do it. And even then, that's no worse than darkvision. Hell darkvision is a lot easier to use and has more offensive uses as well as being good defensively. And it's a lot easier to make an area dark than it is to make an area aquatic.
As for pulling an enemy underwater, my reaction: Awesome! They'd have to use combat maneuvers to get him in the water, and then hold him long enough to drown without letting go or getting killed. Against anything but a vampire, that's going to be a relatively long wait and a hell of a struggle. If you pull it off, I'm just gonna congratulate you on doing something cool but completely unnecessary.
I admit I skimmed over the fluff, but I don't really understand why a race of lizard people have all these abilities. Why do they get a caster level bonus on the best spell school? Why is the caster level trait better than that of native outsiders, creatures innately magical? Why do they get the amphibious trait and a swim speed when the only aquatic feature they have is a strong tail? Why do they have a climb speed when most of them live in cities, underground, or in wetlands? Why do they have an Intelligence bonus and a penalty to Wisdom when they have a culture with tribal influences -- shouldn't that be the opposite? Why is survival and tribal culture a major theme of this race and yet they don't receive any Survival bonuses? Why do they get a Perception class skill when, being reptiles, they probably don't have very good hearing and sight?
When I look at a race's crunch, I should be able to say "Yeah, that makes sense." Here, it just raises questions. It seems like you're trying to accomplish too much with this race. The race feels very unfocused at best and munchkiny at worst. Pick a theme for your race and stick with it!
They get a bonus to conjuration because it seemed like the one that best fit the shaman idea. Simple as that.
They have a swim speed because their tail efficiently propels them through the water. They are amphibious because they can breathe underwater. They are technically amphibians, but of a variety which closely resembles reptiles. Much like the ones that went extinct when reptiles first showed up. They are hatched in the water, and though they grow out of the water, they retain the ability to breathe underwater.
They have a climb speed because trees are freaking everywhere, including wetlands. Lots of reptiles (and amphibians) are natural climbers, and being humanoid with opposable thumbs doesn't hurt. Where they spend most of their time doesn't matter, it's biological. City dwellers wouldn't lose their climbing claws any more than a caged bird loses its wings.
I went with intelligence over wisdom as a subversion of tired tribal society tropes. Rather than making them one with the land, noble savages, etc. I figured, I'd take a different route. They are survivors in a harsh world. Wisdom is nice, but cunning is better for actually staying alive. They are tribal in structure, but are not defined solely by being a generic tribal society. It is a society that is shaped by the unending struggle against nature and the dangers of the wilds. It is this struggle which has kept them from advancing, but also forced them be tough and clever.
No bonuses to survival because I can only give them so many things, and as I see it, survival is less about living among a tribe, and more about surviving on your own. Some of them will obviously put it to good use, but its not something all of them will need, any more than your typical human villagers. If I was throwing everything and the kitchen sink at them, I would have given it to them, but there's a limit, and it just didn't make the cut.
Perception on the other hand is critical. They live in an environment where staying alert is often a matter of life and death. They must learn from an early age to constantly remain aware of their surroundings and avoid getting caught off guard, because they are never truly safe. They suffer the penalty to wisdom (poor senses would fit here) and what they get is a class skill, not a flat bonus. It represents being trained and experienced, not being gifted with acute senses.
Any other questions?
While overpowered (Maybe turn down a bit on the SLAs&take away amphibious, as others suggested), there is a hint of greatness here.
Thanks.
The SLAs are the part that I worry about the most. It occurs to me that perhaps I could swap cure light wounds and unseen servant with detect magic and detect poison. Shaman training could then bring them back. It keeps the basic idea the same, but seems like a more appropriate progression.
Something to consider during the upcoming playtest.
I feel my point was missed here. The race feels very schizophrenic and unfocused. Komodo have many powerful traits with each one representing only a very small aspect of their physiology and culture. Worse is that the choices feel a bit off at the intent and come off as munchkiny.
They get a bonus to conjuration because it seemed like the one that best fit the shaman idea. Simple as that.
But only a very small minority of komodos were/are shamans. To give all komodos this bonus implies all komodos are innately magical. Worse is that only spellcasting komodos benefit from this. Well, okay, you gave them spell-like abilities, but that doesn't make much sense to me. Races get spell-like abilities when they have innately magical heritages. Gnomes and kitsune get SLA because they descend from fey creatures. Note that elves commune with nature and are as close to fey as one can get without actually being a fey and even they don't get any spell-like abilities in the core rules.
I think the shamanism might be better modeled through an alternate trait, a favored class bonus, or perhaps a Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) bonus
They have a swim speed because their tail efficiently propels them through the water. They are amphibious because they can breathe underwater. They are technically amphibians, but of a variety which closely resembles reptiles. Much like the ones that went extinct when reptiles first showed up. They are hatched in the water, and though they grow out of the water, they retain the ability to breathe underwater.
A swim speed implies the creature's body is fully adapt at swimming. It takes much more than a strong tail to swim effectively. This strikes me as more suitable as a Swim bonus than a swim speed, especially considering they live out of water for most of their lives.
But you know what would be kind of cool? What if you added an alternate trait where young komodos have a swim speed instead of a climb speed? And when they grow up, they get the climb speed and the swim speed changes to a Swim bonus as a normal komodo. I've never seen a race that had different traits depending on its age.
They have a climb speed because trees are freaking everywhere, including wetlands. Lots of reptiles (and amphibians) are natural climbers, and being humanoid with opposable thumbs doesn't hurt. Where they spend most of their time doesn't matter, it's biological. City dwellers wouldn't lose their climbing claws any more than a caged bird loses its wings.
Well, a species of bird that lived through many generations without flying would probably not be good at flying anymore. Instead, consider this: What if they modeled their cities like a forest? What if they used trees for their dwellings or made dwellings that resembled trees (tall and cylindrical)? This would justify their climb speed and make visiting a komodo city very interesting for a party since the only way to get from building to building is climbing at uncomfortable heights.
I know that tribal komodos lived in hollowed out trees, but it looked like this isn't the case with city komodos since that would require VERY large trees.
I went with intelligence over wisdom as a subversion of tired tribal society tropes. Rather than making them one with the land, noble savages, etc. I figured, I'd take a different route. They are survivors in a harsh world. Wisdom is nice, but cunning is better for actually staying alive. They are tribal in structure, but are not defined solely by being a generic tribal society. It is a society that is shaped by the unending struggle against nature and the dangers of the wilds. It is this struggle which has kept them from advancing, but also forced them be tough and clever.
This still doesn't make much sense to me. Learning how to best nature through generations strikes me as a Wisdom thing.
No bonuses to survival because I can only give them so many things, and as I see it, survival is less about living among a tribe, and more about surviving on your own. Some of them will obviously put it to good use, but its not something all of them will need, any more than your typical human villagers. If I was throwing everything and the kitchen sink at them, I would have given it to them, but there's a limit, and it just didn't make the cut.
But the entire point of komodo's background involves a survivalist race that evolved into a modern society that thrives on harsh environments. This is one massive aspect of the race and it's not being modeled! Survival skill is much more than just surviving by yourself. All of the applications of the skill benefit more than yourself, even the one for surviving severe weather.
Perception on the other hand is critical. They live in an environment where staying alert is often a matter of life and death. They must learn from an early age to constantly remain aware of their surroundings and avoid getting caught off guard, because they are never truly safe. They suffer the penalty to wisdom (poor senses would fit here) and what they get is a class skill, not a flat bonus. It represents being trained and experienced, not being gifted with acute senses.
Okay, now this makes sense to me. I suppose ultimately, it's still a +2 bonus considering they take a penalty to Wisdom.
But only a very small minority of komodos were/are shamans. To give all komodos this bonus implies all komodos are innately magical. Worse is that only spellcasting komodos benefit from this. Well, okay, you gave them spell-like abilities, but that doesn't make much sense to me. Races get spell-like abilities when they have innately magical heritages. Gnomes and kitsune get SLA because they descend from fey creatures. Note that elves commune with nature and are as close to fey as one can get without actually being a fey and even they don't get any spell-like abilities in the core rules.
I think the shamanism might be better modeled through an alternate trait, a favored class bonus, or perhaps a Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) bonus
They are meant to be innately magical. They are magical creatures from a magical wilderness full of magical creatures.
And they all receive training from the shamans as children. Some continue on with their training, but all receive at least some instruction. Even the cityfolk.
A swim speed implies the creature's body is fully adapt at swimming. It takes much more than a strong tail to swim effectively. This strikes me as more suitable as a Swim bonus than a swim speed, especially considering they live out of water for most of their lives.
Well, yes, they use their whole bodies. But the tail is the most important part. Think crocodile or monitor lizard. With a fluid motion through their whole body, they seemingly effortlessly propel themselves through the water. I would think this would be uncontroversial given that the standard lizardfolk get a swim speed as well.
Well, a species of bird that lived through many generations without flying would probably not be good at flying anymore. Instead, consider this: What if they modeled their cities like a forest? What if they used trees for their dwellings or made dwellings that resembled trees (tall and cylindrical)? This would justify their climb speed and make visiting a komodo city very interesting for a party since the only way to get from building to building is climbing at uncomfortable heights.
I know that tribal komodos lived in hollowed out trees, but it looked like this isn't the case with city komodos since that would require VERY large trees.
Well, the cities are meant to accommodate other races, and are going to have a lot of stone construction rather than just using trees. But at the same time, I could definitely see them having towers to climb, and other structures which specifically call for climbing, just like they have aquatic sections which necessitate swimming.
But the entire point of komodo's background involves a survivalist race that evolved into a modern society that thrives on harsh environments. This is one massive aspect of the race and it's not being modeled! Survival skill is much more than just surviving by yourself. All of the applications of the skill benefit more than yourself, even the one for surviving severe weather.
I see your point. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to swap out knowledge nature for survival. Another thing to consider after the playtest.
I get where you are coming from with the movement types being different, and therefore not a problem. But I still think you might be underestimating the power of amphibious.
Amphibious characters can disappear under the water where many threats can't follow. And they can grab a non-amphibious character and drag them down to die. That's hardly something that can be brushed aside.
Still, I like what I'm seeing here. Tons of flavor, loads of options. Overall, I approve.
That an amphibious character can hide under the water is, at best, situational. And it does nothing for the rest of the party. It's basically a way of running away, something any character can do in a lot of situations anyway. And that's assuming it is safe in the water, which is never a good assumption.
It's only an issue if the whole party can do it. And even then, that's no worse than darkvision. Hell darkvision is a lot easier to use and has more offensive uses as well as being good defensively. And it's a lot easier to make an area dark than it is to make an area aquatic.
As for pulling an enemy underwater, my reaction: Awesome! They'd have to use combat maneuvers to get him in the water, and then hold him long enough to drown without letting go or getting killed. Against anything but a vampire, that's going to be a relatively long wait and a hell of a struggle. If you pull it off, I'm just gonna congratulate you on doing something cool but completely unnecessary.
Good point about the darkvision. I once played in a party where everyone had darkvision and the dm didn't realize it but we did. We fought the first boss in a cave, and immediately put out the lights. The look on the dm's face was priceless.
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Makeitstop,
Here's what's happening: you don't really seem to want advice. You've spent more words telling folks why their reasons* for seeing your homebrew race as overpowered are invalid than you spent designing the race itself. You're the GM, yeah? So muster the guts to be the boss. If you're not the GM, then what's in it for you NOT to take people's advice? You've got nothing to gain by contradicting them.
All I'll say is this: a race only needs to be balanced against the rest of the races in that world/party. E.G.: A drow noble is balanced in a drow nobility campaign.
*essentially all of which I agree with; this is an OP race if there ever was one.
Makeitstop,
Here's what's happening: you don't really seem to want advice. You've spent more words telling folks why their reasons* for seeing your homebrew race as overpowered are invalid than you spent designing the race itself. You're the GM, yeah? So muster the guts to be the boss. If you're not the GM, then what's in it for you NOT to take people's advice? You've got nothing to gain by contradicting them.
*essentially all of which I agree with; this is an OP race if there ever was one.
I am listening to what people are saying. I am considering changes based on feedback.
I'll dispute points which I disagree with, as a I should. If I don't make my counterpoints, no one can respond. It's a hell of a lot better than just ignoring the points I don't agree with, or accepting them blindly. Maybe I'm coming off as a bit more combative than I intend.
So yeah, I still don't think the combination of movement speeds alone is a problem. Nor do I think amphibious should be a deal breaker. Hell, I think there need to be more amphibious races, given that the existing ones are generally awful.
But I do think changes need to be made. The SLAs in particular are definitely getting hit with the nerf bat.
All I'll say is this: a race only needs to be balanced against the rest of the races in that world/party. E.G.: A drow noble is balanced in a drow nobility campaign.
And that is also part of the issue I think. I wasn't aiming for "absolutely no better than any of the core races." My group never restricts races to core, and generally has pretty lose guidelines. That's why I said my aim for the power level was "within reason" and I compared them to Tieflings and Aasimar. That's more the area they were meant to be in.
Long overdue update: I reduced the climb speed from 20 to 15, reduced the swim speed from 30 to 20, and replaced cure light wounds with detect magic and detect poison.
I really like them and I'll be including them in my campaign. Thanks a bunch!
If I may offer an idea. How would you feel about taking away amphibious as a standard and replacing it with...
Deep Breath- Komodos are able to hold the breath for a minute per point of constitution.
But then you can have them gain amphibious replacing Deep Breath and climb speed.
Alot of folks seem to have a problem with amphibious right off the bat, I don't but being a pretty sweet ability they should loose something for it. If one can breath under water why would they need to climb?
That said as a standard trait they can hold their breath for a fairly long time which can be beneficial both under and above water. This further makes the choice of amphibious more meaningful for the character and the campaign.
Also having a bonus to stealth replace swim amphibious and natural armor seems to be quite a bit of a trade off and would only benefit for very specific character roles. I think most folks would rather take the swim, NA, and amphibious as it helps in many more scenarios.
I feel like a lot of the abilities that you're putting straight into the race would make a lot more sense as racial archetypes to classes. That way you would keep the flavor of the society, but it's not just a pot luck of all the best abilities. For example take Amphibious (Most amphibians lose their gills when they mature) and make it into a Rogue or Ranger class feature to retain those for them. The shamanism would also be based on a class; You could clearly make it into a Witch archetype.
I like the fluff, and find your race to be a great start. Swim makes sense to me since its still an active part of the life cycle. I did not notice in the fluff where it supports the climb speed. Do they build in trees or climb lots of cliffs?
I think the fluff needs to reflect more of your innately magical aspects. If they are all trained byshamans, then the city shamans will still wield tons of influence over Komodo children. If I may offer criticism, you should consider making spell resistance harder to obtain that giving up the innate magic abilities - SR is the most powerful and universally great defense mechanism this race has available, and appears, to me at least, as a better mechanical option. A an equal level caster has a 2 in 3 chance to successfully affect a Komodo character, and less if it's a lower level creature/caster. What do you think?
How do other races view/interact with them?
Sorry, didn't realize there had been new comments since I last checked this thread.
If I may offer an idea. How would you feel about taking away amphibious as a standard and replacing it with...
Deep Breath- Komodos are able to hold the breath for a minute per point of constitution.
But then you can have them gain amphibious replacing Deep Breath and climb speed.
Alot of folks seem to have a problem with amphibious right off the bat, I don't but being a pretty sweet ability they should loose something for it. If one can breath under water why would they need to climb?
That said as a standard trait they can hold their breath for a fairly long time which can be beneficial both under and above water. This further makes the choice of amphibious more meaningful for the character and the campaign.
I can definitely see where you are coming from. While I prefer amphibious to deep breath for a variety of reasons, I wouldn't object to such a change. You make a good argument.
As for the combination of amphibious and climbing, the need is one of evasion. There are many threats in the water, and quite a few out of the water. Being able to go between the two environments is quite helpful. If an aquatic threat chases you, find the nearest tree and climb out, odds are it won't be able to follow. In addition, they open up more opportunities for habitation. Komodo live in swamps, forests and lakes.
Also having a bonus to stealth replace swim amphibious and natural armor seems to be quite a bit of a trade off and would only benefit for very specific character roles. I think most folks would rather take the swim, NA, and amphibious as it helps in many more scenarios.
If I recall correctly, that trade off was based in part on the RP value of the abilities. A +4 to stealth costs 5 RP, while swim is 1 or 2 depending on where you look (I always go with 1), and amphibious and natural armor are both 2.
Whether you find the trade off to be worth it is going to depend on the character and campaign. It is quite common to go through an entire campaign without a single swim check, let alone the need to breath underwater. Stealth almost always comes up sooner or later, and can be a central part of a character's modus operandi. Looking at it again with fresh eyes, having not touched this in a while, I agree that the standard is probably better, but I think it's close enough to be a worthwhile trade for some characters.I feel like a lot of the abilities that you're putting straight into the race would make a lot more sense as racial archetypes to classes. That way you would keep the flavor of the society, but it's not just a pot luck of all the best abilities. For example take Amphibious (Most amphibians lose their gills when they mature) and make it into a Rogue or Ranger class feature to retain those for them. The shamanism would also be based on a class; You could clearly make it into a Witch archetype.
That would have been a legitimate approach. I haven't done any racial archetypes yet. I want to, but haven't gotten around to it. Maybe in the future.
I like the fluff, and find your race to be a great start. Swim makes sense to me since its still an active part of the life cycle. I did not notice in the fluff where it supports the climb speed. Do they build in trees or climb lots of cliffs?
In the tribal settlements section, I mention that most komodo live in trees. They also climb a lot, as the wilds are dangerous, ground and water based predators often cannot follow.
I think the fluff needs to reflect more of your innately magical aspects. If they are all trained byshamans, then the city shamans will still wield tons of influence over Komodo children.
Shamans do have a lot of influence among the cityfolk, however it is in their best interest not to overplay their hand. Though they are traditionalists, they benefit greatly from having access to foreign goods and information gained from other cultures. If they alienate the cityfolk, the cityfolk could easily kick them out, and replace them with mages and clerics from other races. It would cost them more, and hurt relations with the tribes, but it would be doable if the shamans ever became more trouble than they were worth.
If I may offer criticism, you should consider making spell resistance harder to obtain that giving up the innate magic abilities - SR is the most powerful and universally great defense mechanism this race has available, and appears, to me at least, as a better mechanical option. A an equal level caster has a 2 in 3 chance to successfully affect a Komodo character, and less if it's a lower level creature/caster. What do you think?
Part of the reason for the exact trade off was my use of RP values to balance the race. The magical trait most similar to the one komodo get is 2 RP, as is lesser spell resistance. I suppose it looks worse now since I nerfed the SLAs a bit. I'll admit, it is probably an imperfect trade off, but it also doesn't bother me that much. Both options are good, and both have a fun flavor. I've known GMs to outright ban anything that has spell resistance, and I understand why, but I just have a more relaxed attitude about it. I can get around it when I want to, so it isn't that big of a deal, just another way to control the spotlight. But for those who don't like it, don't allow it.
How do other races view/interact with them?
Most civilized races interact with cityfolk merchants on a regular or semi-regular basis. Komodo are eager to trade with anyone they can, and they are good at it. Like them or hate them, everyone benefits from doing business with them.
Those who aren't merchants are often cityfolk trying to pursue another path. They tend to dive in headfirst and fully devote themselves to their new profession, regardless of what it is. This drive and eagerness can border on stubborn, pigheadedness, but at the very least is likely to earn the respect of those the komodo works with. One reason for this devotion is that cityfolk are raised to be fascinated by all things foreign and exotic, so working among them following a foreign path is a dream come true for many. It helps that most such komodo left home because of a lack of opportunity, and cannot return, nor would they want to thanks to the komodo's lack of strong connections to places and things.
Tribals are less common outside of the wilds, but not unheard of. Some leave the wilds to fulfill a purpose, such as a quest or in order to secure something the tribe needs. Others simply choose to leave the wilds and find a new life, but without joining the cityfolk. Regardless of the reason, these tribals stick out like a sore thumb and are far more likely to be seen as dangerous savages.
While komodo have no special hatred for any particular races, they are quite aggressive when dealing with those races who cannot be handled peacefully. Drow, hobgoblins, finfolk and most orcs are assumed to be hostile and are treated as enemies by default.
As for how each race views them specifically, it depends on the setting and interpretation. Here's a plausible list.
Dwarves: "Most of the scaly bastards are forked tongue devils that'll cheat you first chance they get. Still, I've met a few that were decent fighters and good drinking buddies."
Elves: "I respect the tribals for their connection with nature, and the city dwellers for their attempts to civilize. If only they weren't too stubborn to do both. But that sort of childish behavior is to be expected from a society in its infancy."
Gnomes: "I've been traveling with my friend here for years. He loves new things and magic and nature almost as much as I do. He's like the gigantic, ugly, scaly cousin I never had or wanted but is here so I might as well make the best of it. If only he had a sense of humor too. You hide one badger in the latrine, and suddenly you're the bad guy."
Halflings: "I don't quite understand these ko-mo-do people. I mean, they appreciate a good journey and new experiences, but you lose them once you get to the part where you go back home and enjoy the finer things in life. For people who are so fascinated by civilization, they don't seem to care much for the civilized things, like smoking a good pipe while sitting in a comfy chair and reading a good book by the fireplace. Why, if you gave them the finest bottle of wine in the world, they'd sell it without so much as sniffing the cork. They say tribals are savages, but at least the don't hoard coins like dragons."
Half-elves: "I find the komodo strangely refreshing. After the initial awkward conversation where they try to grasp the concept of two races breeding, they quickly move on and simply treat me like any other person. No stigma, no expectations, I'm neither a bastard nor an exotic being. I suppose when you're new, everyone's exotic. I can just be myself around them, and while I'm not sure I like it, it's certainly better than the alternative.
Half-orcs: "Hypocrites, all of them. They're the savages fresh from the swamp and yet they treat me like monster and a bandit because I have a little orc blood. I try to explain that I'm not an orc, but they either don't understand or don't care. And I know for a fact that they do business with the skullcrusher clan, so it's not like they're at war with the orcs either. Damn lizards can all rot in hell."
Humans: "Just what we need, more competition. They're setting up shop in every town from here to the frozen wastes, and driving human traders out of business. Sure, we've hired some of them as mercenaries, but there are so many of them, the flooded the market and now everyone has some. They may not have attacked us, but it does feel like we're getting invaded sometimes. Plus none of their women will give me the time of day."
Do they really need a unique racial language? Pathfinder already has a ridiculous number of languages, including one commonly used by other reptilian creatures.
Yes, pathfinder has way too many languages, which is actually why I don't mind adding one more. If there were only a handful, I would be making a bigger change, but at this point it's a drop in the bucket. Plus, languages are easily dealt with, especially if the GM gives the players appropriate setting info at character creation. One player invests one skill point and bam, the language barrier is broken.
Compare that with, say, creating a new type, which actually has an impact on the balance of the game. The more types there are, the less useful a ranger's favored enemy is for example.
And more importantly, it seemed thematically appropriate. A race which has a divide between traditionalists who live in isolation and modernists who embrace all things foreign should really have a traditional language. Draconic, being shared with others (particularly dragons), seemed like the wrong choice. and that left only a racial language.
Lizardfolk and kobolds speak it.
The race is interesting but a bit all over the place. It's strangely over powered but it's lack of cohesion leaves it lacking in overall ability. I'm hard pressed to think of a character I'd use with the race.
The basic lizardfolk option given for players IS mechanically boring without a lot of bells and whistles but it gives a solid base for a natural weapon fighter-type with nothing going to waste. I CAN see myself using them.
+2 str and con with no minuses? Yes please.
Natural armor +2? Yep.
Swim speed 30? sounds good.
3 natural attack? perfect.
Now your fluff is nice but personally rather see it built on the basic lizardfolk. A few of the parts could work well as alternate race traits.
I'll go over the parts that are issues for me.
Ability Scores: +2 int and con, -2 wis. No real stand out for a class. Int + dex better for casters and auto -1 to will saves.
Speeds: Climb and swim? That's super rare and seems a bit much even with the low numbers.
Skill Training: 2 class skills? seems a bit much. +2 to each sounds about right.
Arcane Shamanism: +1 conjuration would be cool and quite strong on another race but would have the best effect on a +wis or +cha race (healing or summoning classes). On an INT caster, that school leaves you with mostly touch spells.
Amphibious: This is really strong for a race. Look at the gillman for an example of one. Or the Undine.
So it seems like it's a high RP race without a niche.
Lizardfolk and kobolds speak it.
Well, this meant to replace lizardfolk, so theoretically, that leaves kobolds and dragons (and troglodytes, but whatever). Kobolds and dragons go together, but komodo have no connection to either other than being scaly.
The race is interesting but a bit all over the place. It's strangely over powered but it's lack of cohesion leaves it lacking in overall ability. I'm hard pressed to think of a character I'd use with the race.
The basic lizardfolk option given for players IS mechanically boring without a lot of bells and whistles but it gives a solid base for a natural weapon fighter-type with nothing going to waste. I CAN see myself using them.
+2 str and con with no minuses? Yes please.
Natural armor +2? Yep.
Swim speed 30? sounds good.
3 natural attack? perfect.
For a one trick pony, that's fine. But playable races are generally meant to be more versatile. My rule of thumb when making a race is that I should be able to see myself playing some kind of martial, magic or skill/utility class with it.
Now your fluff is nice but personally rather see it built on the basic lizardfolk. A few of the parts could work well as alternate race traits.
Could you elaborate? What do you see that would make an interesting alternate race trait?
I'll go over the parts that are issues for me.
Ability Scores: +2 int and con, -2 wis. No real stand out for a class. Int + dex better for casters and auto -1 to will saves.
This was a hard one for me. I wanted to give them something different which still fit the flavor. Con and Int are always useful but not overpowered. My rough draft of the race didn't give them any negatives, but it was just too much. The only stat that wasn't necessary fluffwise was wis, so the choice was obvious.
It's not an extremely specialized set of scores. Great for a magus, decent for most everyone else who isn't Wis based.
Speeds: Climb and swim? That's super rare and seems a bit much even with the low numbers.
As I've argued before, I think they are both good abilities which do not possess any kind of dangerous synergy. Obviously not everyone agrees.
Skill Training: 2 class skills? seems a bit much. +2 to each sounds about right.
It depends. Class skills are useful when you don't already have them, but flat bonuses are always good. Plus, traits alone can grant class skills you are missing, so it's not that special.
And my thinking is that flat bonuses are for inherent abilities, while class skills are for training you get by virtue of being raised in that culture. In this case, it's the training not some natural ability.
Arcane Shamanism: +1 conjuration would be cool and quite strong on another race but would have the best effect on a +wis or +cha race (healing or summoning classes). On an INT caster, that school leaves you with mostly touch spells.
Surely someone wants to play a witch or a conjurer, and it's not like there aren't any good conjuration spells to be used by wizards, magi and arcanists. It's certainly better than not having a bonus to an entire school of magic, plus some spell-like abilities.
Amphibious: This is really strong for a race. Look at the gillman for an example of one. Or the Undine.
I am actually quite dissatisfied with the existing amphibious races. They are boring. Being amphibious is useful but should not be the only thing a race has going for it. That's part of why I made this and finfolk.
In my experience, amphibious is either a prerequisite because we are doing that kind of campaign, or it will be something that is occasionally useful. Either way, you are stuck with the race the whole time, so it better have more interesting things than that going for it.
So it seems like it's a high RP race without a niche.
It's a generalist. Good at many things, but not too heavily focused on any one thing. That' exactly what I was going for.
Humans: "Just what we need, more competition. They're setting up shop in every town from here to the frozen wastes, and driving human traders out of business. Sure, we've hired some of them as mercenaries, but there are so many of them, the flooded the market and now everyone has some. They may not have attacked us, but it does feel like we're getting invaded sometimes. Plus none of their women will give me the time of day."
Gotta admit, that made me laugh. Humans just can't keep it in their pants can they?
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OK, so it's been a long time, but I've made some updates and things are much more finalized.
First of all, I've adjusted some of the feats and alternate racial traits, though nothing too major. Breath weapon got changed to actually scale a little with level, and an improved version was added. And the deepkin now get the full 30 ft swim speed, since it seems like a better fit for both lore and balance.
Secondly, I've touched up the lore and languages to better integrate them with the other races I've made, who are all going to be getting similar tweaks as I prepare my new setting. Also added height, weight and age tables.
And finally I've added three traits. The only thing really missing is favored class bonuses, but because there are so many classes, I'm not planning on making them until they come up.
On the 8th page under Racial Traits, you have an entry that says Knowledge Nature is always a class skill.
On the 10th page under Traits, Between Worlds there is an entry that says "You gain a +1 to Knowledge Nature and Knowledge Local, and one of these becomes a class skill for you."
If Knowledge Nature is already always a class skill...
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The cityfolk alternate race trait replaces perception and knowledge nature with diplomacy and knowledge local. So the between worlds gives a +1 to both of the knowledge skills and allows you to make whichever one isn't a class skill into a class skill, bridging the gap between the two sides.
Or you could be a deepkin and have neither.
Good to have some free Komodo stuff out there. ;)
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One more tiny revision. I have made the Cityfolk alternate race trait a default race trait, and moved the old skill training to the alternate race traits under the name Tribal Komodo.
This probably should have been done a long time ago since the cityfolk would be the most commonly encountered komodo, and the easiest one to explain as player characters as well. Plus now perception isn't a class skill by default, only through an alternate race trait.
I'm still curious what the total RP of this race is. If you answered that question before, I'm afraid I missed it.
Even if swim and climb speeds only cost 2 RP, its no stretch of the imagination to say that the developers made a mistake. 2 RP is the same cost for gain a +2 bonus on Climb -or- Swim checks. You have exploited this by taking both. You can say that past a certain level climbing and swimming don't matter because "magic", but they are potent at low levels and can negate the need to use spell slots at higher levels. Plus they are movement rate and don't require a standard action to activate. Some lizards can climb and swim, but these guys aren't lizards. They are humanoids.
The game has way too many languages as is.
Cityfolk should be rewritten so as to say Komodo instead of cityfolk. I'm not a fan of granting skills as class skills as part of a race. At the very least it should be done minimally. Some Komodo can use this to gain a free +3 when the spend a skill point. For other Komodo, this will provide no benefit because they already have it as a class skill. I prefer the flat +2 to skills to show that a race is actually better at that skill than others. It helps those who have it as a maxed out class skill, and for those without it as a class skill it still gets a +2 instead of a +3.
Arcane Shamanism seems odd to me because 80% of their population can summon fog and an invisible dude daily. Racial traits that are similar to this one usually have only one 1st level spell. The bonus on conjugation spells seems unneccessary. The ability score bonuses already this race steered towards playing a wizard, and this bonus reinforces that.
Amphibious - combined with the swim speed - eliminates one major hazard from the game: exploring and fighting in or under the water. I think this is an important hazard, and it bothers me that a very dangerous thing can be completely safe.
All in all, I think this race is too powerful. But then again, maybe you aren't going for something on par with standard races.
And for the record, I am on board with what you are attempting to do: make a player-friendly lizard race. Its something I have wanted to see for some time.
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I'm still curious what the total RP of this race is. If you answered that question before, I'm afraid I missed it.
Ask and you shall receive
The RP value actually breaks down as follows:
- Ability Scores 0RP
- Type: 0RP
- Size: 0RP
- base speed of 30: 0RP
- Climb speed of 15: 2RP (Normally for a 20ft speed)
- Swim speed of 20: 1RP (Normally a 30ft speed, race builder says 2RP, race entries all say 1RP)
- Languages: 0RP (normally not as many languages, but squeezing a lot of homebrew race languages in means every race should have more)
- Natural Armor: 2RP
- Resistant: 2RP
- Natural Attack: 1RP
- Skill training: 1RP
- Arcane Shamanism: 2RP (as the far superior enclave protector)
- Low-light Vision: 1RP
- Amphibious: 2RP
Total: 14RP (and several of those have asterisks next to them, so I'd argue it should be rounded down to 13, but whatever).
So it's not strictly core, but it's comfortably in the drow/tiefling/aasimar zone I like so much.
Even if swim and climb speeds only cost 2 RP, its no stretch of the imagination to say that the developers made a mistake. 2 RP is the same cost for gain a +2 bonus on Climb -or- Swim checks. You have exploited this by taking both. You can say that past a certain level climbing and swimming don't matter because "magic", but they are potent at low levels and can negate the need to use spell slots at higher levels. Plus they are movement rate and don't require a standard action to activate. Some lizards can climb and swim, but these guys aren't lizards. They are humanoids.
I would argue that the mistake is more in having all +2 skill bonuses being equal. I would barely consider a +2 to swim to be worth even 1RP. But according to the race builder, a +2 to appraise and a +2 to perception are equal.
Anyway, I consider the move speeds to be at the core of the design. It captures that amphibious swamp dweller idea really well. Hell, the beastiary lizardfolk even have a version with both a climb speed and a swim speed. They aren't going to be the best at either (in fact, they can't climb any faster than any other race with a base speed of 30, they are just less likely to fail) and it's not like you can use both at the same time, so it's not like the combo is worse than the sum of its parts.
In short, I get the objection, but I think it is acceptable as is, and gives the race a lot of flavor.
The game has way too many languages as is.
Agreed. But it's a drop in the bucket at this point, and makes sense from a lore perspective.
Cityfolk should be rewritten so as to say Komodo instead of cityfolk. I'm not a fan of granting skills as class skills as part of a race. At the very least it should be done minimally. Some Komodo can use this to gain a free +3 when the spend a skill point. For other Komodo, this will provide no benefit because they already have it as a class skill. I prefer the flat +2 to skills to show that a race is actually better at that skill than others. It helps those who have it as a maxed out class skill, and for those without it as a class skill it still gets a +2 instead of a +3.
I prefer to keep it specific, if only to keep the distinction between cityfolk and tribals completely, unmistakably clear. It's not the normal way to write it, but I'd rather have it break with tradition than deal with anymore confusion.
And as I see it, class skills are good for cultural things, bonuses are good for inherent abilities. A society which teaches all of its children how to sneak and hide would not make them better at sneaking than a well trained ranger, both are getting training. A race which has camouflage is going to be better at sneaking with or without training.
And +2 is generally more powerful because if you don't have a class skill, it can easily be made a class skill with a trait. Already having a powerful race, it made sense to pick the overall weaker option.
Arcane Shamanism seems odd to me because 80% of their population can summon fog and an invisible dude daily. Racial traits that are similar to this one usually have only one 1st level spell. The bonus on conjugation spells seems unneccessary. The ability score bonuses already this race steered towards playing a wizard, and this bonus reinforces that.
The specific spells they have are basics taught by the shamans as a survival skill. Detecting magic and poisons can help you avoid a threat in a supernatural swamp. Obscuring mist is a fairly simple way to hide or escape from danger. Unseen servant, well, that's an all purpose utility thing, and is about as shamany of a spell as you can get. These four spells can very plausibly save someone's life in the wild without getting overly powerful.
As for the conjuration bonus, it arguably applies to any spellcaster, and would have the same effect if they'd had a bonus to wis or cha. All part of the "potentially good at more than one thing" design.
Amphibious - combined with the swim speed - eliminates one major hazard from the game: exploring and fighting in or under the water. I think this is an important hazard, and it bothers me that a very dangerous thing can be completely safe.
I feel there is a place for amphibious races, and in fact, one of the things I've been trying to fix is the lack of good amphibious races. I mean, who the hell wants to play a gillman? "Here's your race, you can breathe underwater, aboleths can control you, and you die within hours of starting most adventures because they tend to be on land."
And in my experience, water hazards don't come up that often in most campaigns. When it does, I'd see it as a time for the amphibious guy in the party to shine, not the ruination of a hazard. And it's not like you can't make water dangerous for reasons other than drowning.
And let's be honest, a lot of races completely negate hazards. For example, elves completely negate sleep as a hazard. Hell, anything with darkvision is negating what should be a very common, very serious hazard. And they give out darkvision like candy, even humans can get it with an alternate race trait.
All in all, I think this race is too powerful. But then again, maybe you aren't going for something on par with standard races.
I like my races in that 10-15 RP zone, comfortable in a party with, say, a dwarf, a tiefling, an aasimar and a tengu. I think I hit that mark.
Anyway, I consider the move speeds to be at the core of the design. It captures that amphibious swamp dweller idea really well. Hell, the beastiary lizardfolk even have a version with both a climb speed and a swim speed. They aren't going to be the best at either (in fact, they can't climb any faster than any other race with a base speed of 30, they are just less likely to fail) and it's not like you can use both at the same time, so it's not like the combo is worse than the sum of its parts.
They have a climb speed of 15 ft and a swim speed of 20 ft. A creature with a base speed of 30 ft using the climb skill moves at 1/4 its speed as a move action (5 ft) or 1/2 its speed (15 ft) by accepting a -5 penalty. The same creature can use the swim skill to move 1/4 its speed (5 ft) as a move action or 1/2 its speed (15 ft) as a full-round action. The komodo is faster in both cases and does not need to roll a check. As a matter of fact it is allowed to accept a -5 penalty to a climb check in order to climb twice it'd climb speed (to a max of its base speed) and can use the run action while swimming (speed x3 or x4).
Anyway, I hope you ended up with what you wanted. You've been strangely resistant to the suggestions of others.
Anyway, I consider the move speeds to be at the core of the design. It captures that amphibious swamp dweller idea really well. Hell, the beastiary lizardfolk even have a version with both a climb speed and a swim speed. They aren't going to be the best at either (in fact, they can't climb any faster than any other race with a base speed of 30, they are just less likely to fail) and it's not like you can use both at the same time, so it's not like the combo is worse than the sum of its parts.They have a climb speed of 15 ft and a swim speed of 20 ft. A creature with a base speed of 30 ft using the climb skill moves at 1/4 its speed as a move action (5 ft) or 1/2 its speed (15 ft) by accepting a -5 penalty. The same creature can use the swim skill to move 1/4 its speed (5 ft) as a move action or 1/2 its speed (15 ft) as a full-round action. The komodo is faster in both cases and does not need to roll a check. As a matter of fact it is allowed to accept a -5 penalty to a climb check in order to climb twice it'd climb speed (to a max of its base speed) and can use the run action while swimming (speed x3 or x4).
Huh, I guess my group has been running the climb skill slightly wrong this whole time. Good to know.
Anyway, I hope you ended up with what you wanted. You've been strangely resistant to the suggestions of others.
It's not that strange. These guys have been critiqued, revised, tested and tweaked. Careful thought has been put into them, and we are well past the brainstorming phase. While I am open to suggestions, I am not going to just run with them without consideration. I hear the arguments and when I disagree, I counter them with my own points, or at least explain the reasoning behind my choices.
I have already addressed the issues which others have brought up that I agreed needed changing. That the list of things changed has not included the combination of movement speeds or the amphibious trait doesn't mean I'm not listening, it means I disagree with those two criticisms. Aside from that, the only other critical feedback I have gotten are that they are too powerful when compared to core (which is fine with me because I'm not comparing only to core) or questions about specific design choices which I answer with the reasoning behind them.
If someone sees a flaw that hasn't been addressed yet, or sees an error in my reasoning, I would be glad to hear about it. But otherwise, I am indeed happy with the race as it is.