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How do people deal with small characters? I am currently in two AP, Reign of Winter (GM) and Carrion Crown (Player), both seem to be a race to the finish so not a lot of shopping and there really never seem to be any small items?
In Carrion Crown I am playing a Gnome Bleachling Cleric of Pharasma ...nothing not a single item and we have not been in a town where we could buy any thing over 2000 gp yet. I am a level 10 cleric with a lot of gold but really not much else. On top of it I was handed a certain artifact built for my character accept that is to big so I take major penalties. I am about to handed to a medium character and forget about it...very annoying.
In Reign of Winter I am GM, we have two halflings and I ruled that everything would re-size otherwise the same thing happens.
Do people house rule to allow for re-size of weapons and armor? Or advise against playing small characters?
I think you have to do one or other...the weapon size change is rather allowing to small characters...I know I will never play one again.....
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I always felt magic items adjusting to the size of the wielder, or at least within one step. So, a medium longsword adjusts for a small or large character.
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The GM could simply change some of the treasure to be Small-sized.
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The GM should reward Small PCs with treasure and items appropriate to their size, whether they are playing a published module or AP or homebrew adventure or campaign. Not to do so is at best a big oversight and at worst kind of rude.
EDIT; Ninja'd!
There are several small-sized items in Runelords. And I think there is a smattering in Reign of Winter. (Of course, some of the small-size items are scavenged from goblins... but a mastercraft breastplate could very well have been looted from a gnome or halfling originally.)
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While obviously NPC equipment is appropriately sized to the NPC (I'm looking at you +1 large ogre hook), found treasure usually doesn't have a size given so I generally roll a d6 and on a 1-2 say it's small. Or, if it really fits the needs of a small PC I'll just fudge that roll and make it small.
I suppose if I wanted to be mean I could check if found treasure was fine or colossal as well but that seems unnecessarily punitive.
Non armor/weapon treasure should resize to fit the user automagically so it's not an issue.
If the artifact you refer to is what I think it is, you are the best character to wield it just from flavor text alone. That having been said, it's an artifact. I'd totally have it resize to fit you. It sounds like that ship has sailed for this campaign, but maybe you could convince your GM to let you do some sort of ritual/sidequest to have it resize for you.
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The simplest method I've found is to let magic items resize to be appropriate to the user. It makes no sense not to do so and is tacitly penalizing small characters because of Pathfinder's weapon size rules, which I doubt was the intent of the rule. Non-magical weapons and armor don't resize, but this isn't really an issue because players can buy their own easily.
Size and Magic Items
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).
So, there's the actual rules on size of magic items. After running an AP with a party that was 3/4 small, I just allow auto-resize on weapons and armor as well. It doesn't affect balance a whit and makes it easier for the game to progress without hassle.
i'm a big halfling fan myself (see avatar) so i also look out for the little guy:)
i house ruled (which i had actually thought was a rule) magic weapons re-size and I'm pretty sure other magic items (like ring, staves, clothes, armor) do in fact re-size to fit the new wearer.
otherwise if its a GM problem, asking her/him what they against short people:)
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I wonder why Paizo didn't go with that.
Then again, small-size weapons for halflings and gnomes never really made much sense to me. I was rather fond of the old system where halflings and gnomes would treat a longsword as a two-handed blade, a short-short as a longsword, and a dagger as a short sword.
Of course, I'm also old-school AD&D so my views of this are prejudiced. ;)
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When I GM, I always customize loot for my PCs. I go so far as to ask the players for an item wish list every once in a while, and try to (at least) partially accommodate it.
If there's a Small PC in the group and I'm running a published adventure, I'll be sure to change the races of some bad guys to match. (So, the half-orc assassin becomes a halfling assassin, etc.)
If that's not an option, I'll be sure to specify some of the recovered loot as Small.
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To be honest, I've done this as well. I'll often keep the same gold value, but I'll swap out items for other items. For instance, I eliminated the magical ogre hooks in Runelords and upgraded other items like the amulets of natural armor or the like - items the players will be likely to USE rather than just sell for money. And best of all, they're also items that will benefit the monsters.
I wonder why Paizo didn't go with that.
Then again, small-size weapons for halflings and gnomes never really made much sense to me. I was rather fond of the old system where halflings and gnomes would treat a longsword as a two-handed blade, a short-short as a longsword, and a dagger as a short sword.
Of course, I'm also old-school AD&D so my views of this are prejudiced. ;)
I think smaller weapons did make sense... but that all depends on just what level of simulation you're looking for. On one hand, it makes sense for a rogue's starting weapons to be the same regardless of whether the character is medium or small. And to support that, a small character's short sword should really be a scaled down version of a short sword.
On the other hand, given they're such a minority in bigger cultures, I'm not sure it's entirely reasonable for there to be a whole separate line of reduced size weaponry and armor rather than just expect the smaller races to adapt to what's readily available - in which case that human-sized short sword skill the rogue has translates into a somewhat different fighting style for the small rogue, but one that produces a very similar result to the human rogue (doing the same damage, etc).
Ultimately, 3.5 made a different decision from every other edition of D&D as a matter of art (rather than truth) and PF is based on 3.5, so here we are...
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This is just one of those grey areas in the rules that I feel a little DM fiat can easily repair; I echo a lot of what folks above have said - most magic items in campaigns I run just re-size to the user. The exception being armor or weapons, which I usually just allow a character take to a blacksmith or shopkeeper and resize for a small fee or simply trade out.
The way I view it, shopkeepers are more likely to sell a medium longsword +1, so they'll happily trade a small one for a medium and charge a small "restocking" fee and blacksmiths can keep the leftover magically imbued materials for other projects.
Upsizing is more expensive, but I allow that as well.
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Equipment size is inconvenient. Frequent water / unspeakable liquid in rooms that's meant to make things difficult for medium size characters is what gets to me. "The water in this room is 3 1/2' deep, making it difficult terrain" - for medium creatures. And potentially life-threatening for my halfling.
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I, like almost everyone else apparently, edit some gear when I have small players, so that there is some for them. Otherwise Runelords it is pretty easy to head to a major city during most times and get gear. I have not run it yet, but skulls & shackles seems like it would be easy, since you'll be visiting ports to sell your plunder fairly often.
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This is the same problem that monks have. None of the enemies are ever carrying that +2 Keen Sai or a +4 Defending Saigham. The GM should adjudicate the loot so that there are items applicable to all of the party members, not just the core 4 that between the 4 of them can use 95% of acquired treasure.
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A good one is in Book 1 of the AP Jade Regent.
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On a possible tangent, it would be interesting to see an AP that focuses on small scale PCs (starting in a mostly gnome / Halfling community, most opponents being small creatures, most treasure items or hazards focusing for small sized creatures, etc.)
PCs could still be medium or large size, yet would tend to have difficulty finding lodging or mundane equipment for their size.
Rite Publishing's 1001 Spells includes the 1st level spell adjust, which permanently resizes items, including magic items.
Our GM is allowing it for our Carrion Crown game, which is good news for the two ratfolk characters.
Unfortunately, on an unrelated note, most of the treasure we've come across to date is useless except as a source for too-little cash. Most APs are overfull of rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, and +1 weapons; at some point parties almost always end up selling surplus redundant magic items because the entire party has +1 or +2 rings/amulets/leather armor/weapons.
Carrion Crown has things like a jar of pickled garlic, a set of brass weights, a silver hip flask, a lightning rod, a fancy scorekeeper for a billiard game, collections of clothes, wine, tobacco and spices, and not one but two magnifying glasses. We're more than halfway through Book Two and have gained no magic armor, weapons or Big Six items since clearing out the prison in Book One. No, scratch that, there were some cloaks of resistance.
Actually, a lot of the odd items we've found most recently we aren't counting as treasure at the moment. We're
APs usually have enough wealth for 150%-200% WBL in them, just in case the party misses stuff etc.
Carrion Crown is the exception because it uses the lower wealth as a tool for enabling it's horror theme, from what i have heard it must have enough wealth for 70%-80% WBL, assuming the party doesn't miss anything.
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This is actually the reason I personally dislike small characters in game. My tabletop group uses a rule where when the party loots a magic item, we can choose to change the size of the item once upon acquiring to fit a PC. Otherwise it's the size it is.
When placing small sized items, it's like the DM is saying "This item is for this person" or if it's not small sized "This isn't for you". And while yes the DM does decide quite a bit on loot as in what does the party get, it seems like it's taking away even more by taking our choice on who gets what. The Resize gives us back that option.
Plus as a DM having to take into account party size is already one concern and expected of them. But now having to take into account different sizes is just an extra hassle. Having the items resize makes it so we don't have to worry so much about that.
I wonder why Paizo didn't go with that.
Then again, small-size weapons for halflings and gnomes never really made much sense to me. I was rather fond of the old system where halflings and gnomes would treat a longsword as a two-handed blade, a short-short as a longsword, and a dagger as a short sword.
Of course, I'm also old-school AD&D so my views of this are prejudiced. ;)
I thought it was the same way due to being introduced to the game via Neverwinter Nights, which uses this method; all my small-size two-handers in that game ended up invariably with bastard swords, katanas, battle/waraxes, and/or scimitars, and if you wanted to be a small-size dual-wielder you were pretty much limited to daggers, kukris, maces, and whips (and only daggers and kukris could be used in the off-hand, otherwise you'd take the extra penalty for your off-hand weapon being too big). The numbers come out about the same anyway.
But as my group unanimously voted to apply the "magical weapons and shields resize to fit a user just like magical jewelry, clothing, and armor" house rule, it's a moot point.
Being a lover of Kobolds and, to a lesser degree, Paizo's take on Gnomes, there's no way I wouldn't strive for some method of making Small characters more reliably playable.
I am in a small party (numerically and height wise) in the Carrion Crown AP. Three Gnome Brothers make up our entire party. So far we've custom crafted our own gear with crafting feats and sold off most of the gear we find because it's rubbish for us. Overall, it works for us.
Um i cannot speak for the other game but Carrion Crown should have given you several chances to buy gear long before level 10
Are talking about non-magical gear or magical gear?
In our group, we usually play "Chekov's Gear" when it comes to size. If we find something in a treasure pile, and a player with a small character wants it, then guess what? it was small-sized when we found it!
Yeah, changing the rules between 3.0 and 3.5 in regards to armor sizing was a bad idea. I don't know why they did it.
Carrion Crown is the exception because it uses the lower wealth as a tool for enabling it's horror theme, from what i have heard it must have enough wealth for 70%-80% WBL, assuming the party doesn't miss anything.
We might be even more screwed than that; we're a party of six, and I'm not sure our GM is adjusting wealth (or encounters; he'd need to increase both) in many cases. He's an experienced D&D 3.x DM and experienced Pathfinder player, but this is his first time running an AP.
Also, the NG to LG group mind causes us to miss out on a few things. At the start of Book Two we met a certain traveling troupe, were asked to help them, and did our best. But we declined the offered reward of a +1 dagger after we were unable to deliver (even though it appears there was no way to actually succeed.)
We continued our exploration of the schloss today and got our butts kicked in several consecutive encounters. My poor ratfolk ranger lost 4 DEX, 4 CON and 4 STR to a simultaneous pair of swarms over 2 rounds; at various times half the party was unconscious due to failed saves vs. poison...and the only encounter all day that produced any treasure was a random encounter consisting of nine Burglars led by a Slayer from the GMG.
@Damon Griffin
I can feel you, when i was playing Jade Regent the DM (most of the times) didn't increase the treasure to accomodate for 6 players, that led to my character having about 50-60% over WBL with everything crafted*.
But in your case (Carrion Crown) it doesn't seem** that you can buy anything magical above 6000gp (at most) until book 4 that the party gets access to teleport, so i am not sure what you would do with more money at the books 1,2,3.
*that means that he was over WBL if you assign market price to everything he had on his person, if he had bought them instead of crafting them he would be below WBL.
**i asked a friend to do a quick search for the base value on the carrion crown books and he told me that nothing goes above 6000gp, so unless the party goes to a city that has it's statblock elsewhere and thus wasn't printed in the carrion crown books, you don't have anything meaningful to do with the money
Magic, maybe not huge stuff but basic stuff should have been available long before level 10Um i cannot speak for the other game but Carrion Crown should have given you several chances to buy gear long before level 10Are talking about non-magical gear or magical gear?
Then how do explain what i said in the post above yours about the base value of the cities/towns visited during Carrion Crown?
An Adventure Path where Small characters do not get screwed?
Kingmaker
In our kingmaker game it was a running joke that one had wanted to play a small race and didn't because he thought he'd never get loot. And then we kept selling lots of small sized weapons and some pieces of armor. We sadly didn't finish this AP so I can't tell if it stays that way 'till the end.
Carrion Crown is the exception because it uses the lower wealth as a tool for enabling it's horror theme, from what i have heard it must have enough wealth for 70%-80% WBL, assuming the party doesn't miss anything.We might be even more screwed than that; we're a party of six, and I'm not sure our GM is adjusting wealth (or encounters; he'd need to increase both) in many cases. He's an experienced D&D 3.x DM and experienced Pathfinder player, but this is his first time running an AP.
In this particular case, is it possible that the GM figures a lower wealth average will mean the written encounters actually work fine compared to the larger party, so he won't have to adjust?
I'm not sure it makes sense to have
We are currently playing Carrion Crown (just started book 6) and finding magic items to buy in cities in Ustalav has been a little problematic. By the time characters are level 13+ and looking for the better versions of magic items, it seems like we may have to travel outside of the country to buy what we seek.
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Then how do explain what i said in the post above yours about the base value of the cities/towns visited during Carrion Crown?Magic, maybe not huge stuff but basic stuff should have been available long before level 10Um i cannot speak for the other game but Carrion Crown should have given you several chances to buy gear long before level 10Are talking about non-magical gear or magical gear?
lepidstadt, caliphas BOTH are plenty higher enough
Base Value 6,000 gp; Purchase Limit 37,500; Spellcasting 7thand
Marketplace
Base Value 13,600 gp; Purchase Limit 100,000; Spellcasting 5th
So why can you not get a weapon and armor again? Unless you are in a hurry of course but we never had an issue. You could easily make lower level purchases at Lepidstadt and slightly higher level ones at Caliphas.
@Andrew R
I assume that the one with the 13,600gp base value is Caliphas (i saw it in rule of fear) and that the one with 6000gp is Lepidstadt.
While Caliphas is somewhat adequate for shopping, the PCs do not go near Caliphas until book 4 (when they go to Illmarsh which is 100 miles away from Caliphas), but at book 4 you should have access to teleport, so it's moot by that point becuase you can teleport to cities with higher base value.
But the thing is that at book 1 you are stuck at a place with 1000gp base value, at book 2 you are stuck at a place with 6000gp, at book 3 you are stuck in the middle of a pretty large forest (i can't find the base value for Ascanor lodge, probably because it doesn't have a market), at book 4 you should have access to teleport and go to places like Riddleport and Kalsgard where the base value is at 30000gp+.
So for about half the AP you are stuck at 6000gp maximum, which means +1 weapons, +2 armor, stat booster for one stat +2, cloak of resistance +2 etc.
And if what i have heard is true and you can't wander of, at book 3 you are stuck in the forest with no place to sell your loot and buy gear.
I always felt magic items adjusting to the size of the wielder, or at least within one step. So, a medium longsword adjusts for a small or large character.
Wonderous items change size. Weapons and armor don't. I don't remember if rings do or not.
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Would be fascinating if that actually bore much elation ship to what was being said in the he other thread. Unfortunately "not getting your exact wish list" is not the same as "not getting anything useful to your character"I just found it hilarious comparing this thread with that one.
In this thread, people are insisting that it is the GMs responsibility to modify treasure to fit the party's needs/wants.In that thread, people are insisting that they can drop whatever treasure they want and how dare you nasty entitled players expect it to be useful to your character?!?
By the second part you can get any +1 weapon or +2 armor of your choice and that was just said to not be good enough
I always felt magic items adjusting to the size of the wielder, or at least within one step. So, a medium longsword adjusts for a small or large character.Wonderous items change size. Weapons and armor don't. I don't remember if rings do or not.
They do.
But weapons and armor resizing is a common houserule that I'm pretty sure Kyle was saying his group uses. Mine does as well.
@Damon Griffin
i asked a friend to do a quick search for the base value on the carrion crown books and he told me that nothing goes above 6000gp, so unless the party goes to a city that has it's statblock elsewhere and thus wasn't printed in the carrion crown books, you don't have anything meaningful to do with the money
We're poor enough at the moment that we can't afford to craft our own stuff...potions and scrolls, yes. A low-level wand if we pool some cash. Not much in the way of armor, weapons or wondrous items. I can't speak for all the characters, but this is the total wealth for two of the PCs at level 7.95 (one encounter away from 8th, and if the last several sessions are a guide, it'll be a treasureless encounter):
Aasimar Cleric of Ragathiel
1542gp in cash
4300gp chainmail armor +2
2370gp Large bastard sword +1
2000gp longstrider boots
5gp iron holy symbol
5gp backpack, common
5gp spell component pouch
16gp cleric's kit
5gp gear maintenance kit
25gp scroll of detect undead
25gp scroll of hide from undead
750gp potion of cure serious wounds (3d8+5)
250gp doses of bloodblock (x10)
50gp vial of holy water (x2)
100gp vial of antitoxin (x2)
40gp pot of bladeguard
90gp thunderstones (x3)
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11,587gp -- roughly one-third of what an 8th level PC expects
Ratfolk Ranger (Beastmaster)
1028gp in cash
775gp MW (darkleaf cloth) studded leather armor
2000gp longstrider sandals (+10' to movement)
5gp magical spell component pouch
2320gp rapier +1
2308gp short sword +1
30gp shortbow
230gp arrows, +1 (10)
830gp arrows, +1 ghost touch (5)
332gp arrows, +1 undead bane (2)
50gp tanglefoot bag
25gp vial of holy water
25gp flask of holy water
50gp potion of cure light wounds (1d8+1)
300gp potion of cure moderate wds (2d8+3)(x2)
750gp potion of water breathing
250gp dust of tracelessness
25gp pot of alchemical grease (x5)
1200gp black smear poison (6x)
120gp black adder venom (2x)
1800gp deathblade poison (x1)
120gp blue whinnis (x1)
50gp backpack, masterwork
30gp silver hip flask
25gp silver pocket knife
11gp grappling hook w/50' silk rope
1gp belt pouch
2cp whetstone
9gp ranger's kit
5gp gear maintenance kit
50gp survival kit, masterwork
30gp wire saw
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14,484gp -- less than half of what an 8th level PC expects
@Damon Griffin
If what i have heard about Carrion Crown's WBL is true (~70% WBL), then your assumption, that your DM doesn't include more treasure to make up for the fact that the loot is divided 6 ways instead of 4, must be correct.