Howto DIEHARD or similar


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

I have a level 2 barbarian with all her career planned out to around level 10.
I've invested feats and rage powers primarily in having more attacks and dealing more damage because as a barbarian that's what she wants to do. She's a killer.
Armor, she can buy, DR and HP come with experience and she has pet cleric(s).

All this said, I really want to give her DIEHARD feat. She is sweating from the very first turn to the last of each and every encounter. Being the first in the enemy's face, and still in there when the last one goes down. No one else is as exposed as her.
I don't believe any feat or rage power is as good as DIEHARD. It gives her a 16 HP (CON) buffer from the moment she takes it AND keeps her conscious below 0 HP. No other feat or rage power does that:

Toughness - 3 + 1 HP per three levels is far behind Diehard
Raging Vitality - 1 HP per level + raging while unconscious doesn't seem enough.
Renewed Vigor - Healing 1d8 every four levels + CON mod as a standard action doesn't satisfy. I have clerics.
<anything else?>

What I don't want to do is spend 6 levels going through Endurance until I can finally take Diehard.

Is there any way to gain Diehard QUICK? Magic armor or magic item with that ability or something similar?
I've found that taking ONE level as Fighter with the Unbreakable archetype grants Tough as Nails: "An unbreakable gains Endurance and Die Hard as bonus feats. This ability replaces the fighter's 1st-level bonus feat."
Anything else, better or similar?


6 levels? A human barbarian can get Diehard at level 1, and others can at level 3. If you have other feats you feel are more valuable, then you'll just have to wait. Unless you're playing mythic, anyway. Or maybe there's some magic item that duplicates Diehard or ferocity.


Should probably be under Advice not Rules, but eh.

Half-Orcs can get Endurance for free by trading out Intimidating. But perhaps better, depending on what exactly you want, is the feat Ferocious Resolve. It grants the Ferocity monster trait, which is Diehard by another name. It requires being an Orc or half breed as well.

Past that, I've had DMs allow feats that build off magic items. For example, a Scarlet and Green Cabochon ioun stone grants Endurance. Your DM may allow the same - to let you simply take Diehard if you have that stone. Drawback is if you ever don't have it, you lose both feats since you'll be missing a prereq.


You overvalue Die Hard. Raging Vitality and Toughness don't require you to be Staggered to take advantage of them.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Also, from my experience, Die Hard might as well be called Please Kill Me. One of my fellow players in Wrath of the Righteous invested in Die Hard. Every single time he's used it, it resulted in him dying. Every single time the GM admitted that if he'd been knocked unconscious, the enemy would have gone after someone else.

You are basically trading your safety net for the hope of getting an extra attack or two in, and it's usually a bad trade.


Talisman of the Orc Mother's Fury is a neck slot item granting ferocity or enhancing ferocity or die hard.

Hobgoblin Battle Standard, though too expensive..

Never Stop Shooting trait, kindasorta

Flagelant cleric 2, by Kobold press

Bedlam seeker barbarian, an urban steampunk barb from Pure Steam (3pp product)

Shogun samurai 4, by Rite Publishing

Grand Lodge

Thank you.
Great insight. My lack of gaming experience has made me overvalue Diehard.

As you say, I'm "basically trading safety net for the hope of getting an extra attack or two in, and it's usually a bad trade" so I'll reconsider.

Also "Raging Vitality and Toughness don't require you to be Staggered to take advantage of them" and I'm keeping my safety net, right?


Of course you could use Diehard and don't continue the fight. Act as if disabled/dying, crawl away, quaff a potion.

Ring of Ferocious Action helps with the staggered condition btw.

The Heart of the Wilderness human alternate racial trait should be mentioned too.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Thanael makes a great point, and basically what I'd consider the best use of Diehard - ask your GM how hard it is to pretend to be knocked out (they'll probably say it'll be a Bluff check, so if you haven't invested in that skill this might not work).

Using Diehard to get yourself an extra action to heal yourself so the healer doesn't have to is a great use of it. But using it to stay in the fight on your last legs is really dangerous.

Yeah, raging vitality and toughness will both keep you in the fight longer without the risk of killing you.

Oh, that said, as a barbarian there is another reason to take Diehard. When you fall unconscious, your rage ends. At higher levels, this will cause you to lose enough hit points that you probably die anyway. So at that point, taking Diehard to keep yourself conscious will save your life.


Except Raging Vitality lets you Rage while Unconscious anyway. =)


MaxAstro wrote:

Thanael makes a great point, and basically what I'd consider the best use of Diehard - ask your GM how hard it is to pretend to be knocked out (they'll probably say it'll be a Bluff check, so if you haven't invested in that skill this might not work).

Using Diehard to get yourself an extra action to heal yourself so the healer doesn't have to is a great use of it. But using it to stay in the fight on your last legs is really dangerous.

Yeah, raging vitality and toughness will both keep you in the fight longer without the risk of killing you.

Oh, that said, as a barbarian there is another reason to take Diehard. When you fall unconscious, your rage ends. At higher levels, this will cause you to lose enough hit points that you probably die anyway. So at that point, taking Diehard to keep yourself conscious will save your life.

Unless you take the Guarded Life rage power. And half-orcs can fight with Diehard until they die no problem. Just Take Tenacious Survivor. The healer doesn't even need deathwatch, he will automatically know if you go down you are dead and he only has a few rounds to heal you so you can come back.

Grand Lodge

This barbarian is human, so orcish traits aren't an option.

As Thanael said, I could use Diehard to bluff that I'm dead or simply retreat and take a potion. This would avoid being a burden to anyone else, keeping them in the fight instead of assisting me.

These are the Rage powers and Feats we've talk about:

FEAT - Raging Vitality (1HP per level & unconscious rage - ONLY RAGING)
FEAT - Toughness (3HP +1 after lvl3 - ALWAYS)
FEAT - DieHard (Prerequisite Feat: Endurance. Stay conscious)
RAGE - Guarded Life (Reduce lethal dmg below 0HP equal to your lvl)

Added to these HP related Feats/powers, hardening a barbarian might require investing in Iron Will or similar. Maybe even some reflex save.

Overall, I would want most of my feats to be offensive instead of defensive.
What, in your experience is a good balance between offense and defense? 20% defense 80% offense?. Also consider I might be lvl 8 by the end of the year, at most.

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