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I'm attempting to build a dhampir inquisitor for Carrion Crown, and I'm trying to decide how to build it. I want the character to be a knightly figure, a worshiper of Iomedae if not a Knight of Ozem, seeking to overcome his unholy heritage through the Kinslayer Archetype. I'm debating two of the different kinds of dhampir, the svetocher and ancient-born, as they have tempting stats for an inquisitor, though technically the vanilla dhampir works well too.
For a sword-and-board inquisitor, Strength and Dexterity are equally important, Strength for fighting skill and Dexterity to qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting to make shield-bashing effective. Both the svetocher and ancient-born have a bonus to Strength, so they seem like the most obvious options, but technically Dexterity is important too, so regular dhampir make a strong case as well. In addition, there's a decision between the Charisma bonus of the svetocher and normal dhampir and the Wisdom bonus of the ancient-born. Wisdom is a very important stat for an inquisitor because it's their spellcasting stat. With the Conversion inquisition, it also allows the inquisitor to act as a party face, something I think would come in handy in Carrion Crown. On the other hand, Kinslayer's unique powers key off Charisma, and if you have a decent Charisma, then there's no need for the Conversion inquisition in the firstplace.
So I'm trying to decide what this inquisitor will be. A regular dhampir? A svetocher who uses his/her Charisma or an ancient-born who relies on his/her wisdom?
It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this. What are you hoping to hear from anyone that responds?
Unfortunately, I'm way behind you with regards to my knowledge of both the race and the class, let alone the options you are tossing around, so I cannot provide much with regards to crunch. Which choice sounds more fun? Which has better synergies with the rest of your party?
Charisma is only used to determine the damage of the kinslayer brand, which is kind of unimportant in the long run.
You definitely want Str/Wis if you're melee. And I highly recommend against dual-wielding--without bonus feats or a way to ignore Dex pre-requisites, you're far better off with a two-handed weapon, especially since the Kinslayer doesn't even get the Destruction judgment, which benefits multiple attacks more.
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It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this. What are you hoping to hear from anyone that responds?
Unfortunately, I'm way behind you with regards to my knowledge of both the race and the class, let alone the options you are tossing around, so I cannot provide much with regards to crunch. Which choice sounds more fun? Which has better synergies with the rest of your party?
What I'm looking for is sort of optimization advice from people better at it than I am.
Well, what choice is the most fun for me is the one that makes the most sense when written into the backstory of a Carrion Crown PC. And there's no party yet. I'm pre-making a character that I can submit quickly to recruitment threads, allowing me to get my foot in the door quickly and thus minimize the chance that other potential players will create a character too similar in concept, thus maximizing my chances of playing the character concept that I want to play.
I saw your question about this thread on JJ's thread and figured I would take a look. I didn't have an answer, but I could help bump the thread.
Since I like making characters in general, I would make each of your proposed characters and take them for a test drive. What do they look like at fifth level? What do they look like at tenth?
Worse case scenario, now you have two characters ready to go when that Carrion Crown game comes online.
Whatever you decide to do, Good luck!
I'm with mplindustries on this one. Even sword/shield is reasonable if you're not planning on bashing.
Meh,
Shield bashing is ok, but certainly not "required"
Have you looked at the Vampire Hunter archetype as opposed to the kinslayer? Kinslayer isn't really that great, with the exception of flavor and name.
The brands are so so.
Does your Inquisitor ever intend on using ranged weapons like a bow or crossbow? If not, then a 12-14 dex will be fine.
You really don't need to blow your feats on sword and board TWF/improved shield bash.
IF you are fighting sword and shield and you come up against skeletons or something you can always bash them (albeit losing the shield bonus) instead of using your sword.
Otherwise the shield is fine for adding to your AC.
TWF isn't that great at low levels either, especially for 3/4 BAB. if you start out with a 14 Dex you can always bump it to 15 if you decide you want to go that route later on at level 4 or level 8.
Inquisitor spell casting doesn't totally rely so much on DCs. Look at the list, you can pick and choose good spells that are pretty much healing and buffs and utility spells, and not need the high wisdom, just enough to cast the spells of your level.
If you want the DC specific spells, I would suggest using the vampire hunter archetype instead of kinslayer, pumping your wis and taking the conversion inquisition.
Or go kinslayer, having just enough wis to cast spells, use the cha needed for kinslayer powers and take a different inquisition.
It would make two totally different characters with the same theme.
I'll just add that Cha, does nothing for your saving throws.
Grabbing a buckler can give you +6 AC by the end of things (+1 and +5 enhancement), so it's not terrible, but honestly, two-handed weapons are where it's at. 1.5x Str mod and 3:1 power attack ratio is really hard to beat. Plus, you really only need one feat: Power Attack, instead of a massive tree of them.
for the first few levels, a heavy shield with +2 to your ac and not lower your attack bonus with TWF goes along way to effectiveness and survival.
14 Dex, a heavy shield and chain mail give you 20 AC.
After 4th level you can totally reinvent the character, by 5th level you could be TWF.
If you chose to go this route level 1 feat could be shield focus
Level 3 improved shield bash
Level 4 Bump Dex to 15
Level 5 TWF and you are good to go.
You will want to drop to a light shield but by then you can probably get a +1 shield. so it will even out.
You will have a +3 BAB by then so your -2/-2 won't hurt as much as 1st level.
half orc with chain fighter could be a cool way to go, because it will get you flail proficiencies, and imodae gives you longsword. Pretty good spread.
How are you going to cast spells using a Heavy Shield, exactly?
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The problem with two-handed is that that requires picking a deity that grants a weapon like that, and I think the only one that has a good two-handed weapon is Gorum. I kind of have my heart set on Iomedae. Gorum doesn't really have much presence in Ustalav, and worshiping Iomedae is a prerequisite for becoming a Knight of Ozem, regardless of whether you take the actual prestige class (I don't plan to, as it seems like it's really meant for fighters and maybe cavaliers, as they don't have to worry about spell progression).
Plus, according to one of the guides I've read, Vampire Hunter removes a lot of your versitality for very little payoff, like trading Detect Alignment for a bonus on crafting silver weapons. I'd like to fit in my theme, but not without sacrificing competency. None of the guides seem to have addressed Kinslayer yet...
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That works mechanically, yes, but not thematically. First off, I'm going more for a knightly figure than a barbarian warrior. Two, Shoanti are hard enough to find in their native lands given their nomadic and reclusive nature. What would one be doing in Ustalav, where Carrion Crown takes place? And last but not least, what self-respecting Shoanti quah would allow a dhampir child to survive? They have a very harsh, survival-based mentality, and given how fragile dhampir are physically as children, they'd be more a burden to the clan than a blessing, and it'd probably be considered a mercy to end their misery.
The problem with two-handed is that that requires picking a deity that grants a weapon like that, and I think the only one that has a good two-handed weapon is Gorum. I kind of have my heart set on Iomedae. Gorum doesn't really have much presence in Ustalav, and worshiping Iomedae is a prerequisite for becoming a Knight of Ozem, regardless of whether you take the actual prestige class (I don't plan to, as it seems like it's really meant for fighters and maybe cavaliers, as they don't have to worry about spell progression).
Plus, according to one of the guides I've read, Vampire Hunter removes a lot of your versitality for very little payoff, like trading Detect Alignment for a bonus on crafting silver weapons. I'd like to fit in my theme, but not without sacrificing competency. None of the guides seem to have addressed Kinslayer yet...
You're still better off using the Longsword in two hands than dual wielding.
There are other ways, though--the Heirloom Weapon trait, for example, can get you proficiency in any martial weapon, being a Half Elf can get you any exotic weapon you like, and being a Tiefling can get you the ability to wield oversized weapons without penalty, so you can use a Large Longsword (i.e. a Greatsword).
Edit: Ok, so I may have forgotten you already picked Dhampir at the end there...
This is what bugs me about optimizing. I have a concept I want to play in mind, and then I find out that the idea sucks and in order to have a competent character I have to play something else.
The only part of your concept that's sub-optimal is dual-wielding. Like I said, even just using your Longsword in two hands is better than dual-wielding. Everything else is good enough.
How are you going to cast spells using a Heavy Shield, exactly?The other hand is empty, Weapon Cords, no somatic components spells, or Still Spell feat.
Depends on what spells you pick, but there aren't that many spells to cast in combat until level 5, when you swap down to light shield.
IF you need to cast spells, they are usually a) prep spells before entering combat, b) heal spells (drop weapon, weapon cord) or c) until a few levels down the road..you dont have much to whip out anyway. until you get 2nd level spells there really isn't anything you are going to cast during combat. (I dunno maybe disrupt undead? but then weapon cord to get touch spell) but by then you are into TWF and using a light shield.
At the lower levels you're just beating on stuff and saving your spells for some buff, heals or utility.
Even wizards are hitting stuff with staves at that low a level.
The problem with two-handed is that that requires picking a deity that grants a weapon like that, and I think the only one that has a good two-handed weapon is Gorum. I kind of have my heart set on Iomedae. Gorum doesn't really have much presence in Ustalav, and worshiping Iomedae is a prerequisite for becoming a Knight of Ozem, regardless of whether you take the actual prestige class (I don't plan to, as it seems like it's really meant for fighters and maybe cavaliers, as they don't have to worry about spell progression).
Plus, according to one of the guides I've read, Vampire Hunter removes a lot of your versitality for very little payoff, like trading Detect Alignment for a bonus on crafting silver weapons. I'd like to fit in my theme, but not without sacrificing competency. None of the guides seem to have addressed Kinslayer yet...
A couple things here.
Carrion Crown takes place in Ustalav Yes, but you don't need to BE from there. The very first thin that happens to kick that AP off is assembling the party and the macguffin that calls them there from all over the place.
Being a Dhampir vampire hunter from Ustalav is like being a Cop from Boston. but that doesn't mean there aren't cops in place that are not Boston. If you WANt to be from Ustalav that's fine, but there is no reason why you have to be.
The guides for some things aren't necessarily the best, AND none of them take into account flavor, it's ALL mechanics, you seem to be at least somewhat concerned with your flavor/concept.
So Vampire Hunter gives up detect alignment? Big Deal. Last time I looked Inquisitor has that as a spell (detect chaos/evil/good/law) so redundant! Plus, you hunt vampires... you can tell what they are with a knowledge check. You can probably recognize them (Dad is that you?)
And if at all doubting, cast the spell detect evil, and done.
How often are you REALLY going to use the detect alignment ability as a Vampire Hunter?
Heck, I've seen at least two inquisitors forget they could even do it.
As far as the suggestion for two hand fighting goes. You are scratching your head on trying to figure out how to get a good weapon to do it with, but you are already willing to blow feats on Two Weapon fighting and improved shield bash?
Burn a feat and take whatever weapon you want. Burn the second feat and take power attack, some feat usage as the other fighting style you were going for?
So Iomede offers longsword keep one on your belt as a back up, doesnt mean you arent allowed to trot around with a greatsword.
IF it were me, and this was my character, I probably wouldn't go two weapon fighting shield and sword (Im not sure who told you that was the only good way to make shield work)
I like using shields, especially at lower level.
you spoke about versatility, so here is a compromise, worshipping Iomede is going to give you longsword and shield without spending any feats, So for now you are done there.
Take your first level feat in great sword and you now have a choice which way to fight. sword and board or two handed.
Is it the most efficient? No. But it's the most versatile.
If I have an image of a vampire hunter in my head, I'd say it's versatile.
My wife plans on playing a Kinslayer in CC when we get around to it.
She plans on TWF with sawtooth sabres.
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It's just that when I look at the Guide to the Guides, any build advice for sword and shield users almost immediately recommends TWF with Improved Shield Bash and sundry. What I was asking was sort of "I've already decided what I want as a fighting style, what's the best subrace of the race I want to use that can accommodate that fighting style with this class and still be competent?" I confess the only reason I'm using Inquisitor is because it has more skills to select and skill points to spend on them than the Paladin, which is basically what this character would play as anyway. An Inquisitor that acts like a Paladin.
As for the whole "cop from Boston" bit, I understand that, but I like to tie my characters in to the metaplot of the AP as possible. I know that's metagaming, but I find it enhances my enjoyment of the AP, as the character doesn't feel like an outlier. To use your metaphor of cops, you'd scratch your head if a main character on a police procedural was a Russian circus clown that hangs around the precinct after being a witness in an early episode and just kind of comes along for the ride, wouldn't you? That's the kind of effect I want to avoid when making a character. Exoticism can only go so far before it starts clashing with the mood the AP is trying to set. And I like the AP to play out like high-class literature as opposed to amateurish fan-fiction. I've got an English Lit degree, I can't help it!
But it would be less of a stretch for a cop from another locale to be invited to Boston to assist with something - especially if he has proven himself very qualified in the problem the Boston cops are addressing. That's not exactly how the characters in ghis AP come together, but it's close. It is not like you are a Taldane passing through on vacation.
For what it's worth, of course. I think the two-handed use of the longsword and sword-and-board are great options. And if you invest in Weapon Focus, etc., it will apply to both weapon styles because it is the same weapon.
I only read the guides to become familiar with options that might not be readily apparent to me. I certainly don't feel like they have to determine my character build - there's one I really like, but my three attempts to build a character following it always end up somewhat different. And I like it that way.
Sounds to md like you are already in good shape and getting great advice. I hope your CC campaign comes along soon.
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Then go for the concept and don't worry about it.
I personally would lean towards the Nosferatu-born since you'll want both a good Str and Wis and if your TWF build requires a higher than usual Dex for an Inquisitor it's nice to be able to let Cha side. My second choice would be the Svetocher - obscuring mist is probably the best SLA and their weakness is probably the least significant, which together does a lot to make up for the slightly less good ability scores (especially if you feel your resulting Cha is decent enough to get a different Domain/Inquisition). It does partly depend on how generous your ability score generation is, though - more generous stat generation means that the ability modifiers are a little less important. The standard dhampir's SLA is pretty useless when you have the kinslayer's undead sense and there's no advantage to getting the Dex bonus instead of the Str bonus when you only really need Dex 15 for your TWF (you'll want your Str at least as high). If you really want Improved TWF at level 7-9 you can get yourself a Belt of Dex.
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I guess the vote is for Ancient-Born (Nosferatu-dhampir) with Conversion Inquisition and that a greatsword is a better investment than two-weapon fighting. One more question...is there a way for a dhampir to be noble-born without being a bastard (meaning illegitimate child in this case)? Ustalav places a lot of importance on bloodline, so if a noblewoman has a dhampir, wouldn't she be ostracized and the child treated as persona non grata even before the vampire bloodline came into the picture?
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A bit of artistic license is usually set aside for PCs.
PCs are unique.
They must be.
They do things no sane person would do. Come from circumstance no one has experienced.
It is part of what makes them the heroes.
Not everyone has to be Joe Shmoe the Hero.
Look at the Iconics. They are nuts, and come from crazy backgrounds.
Be unique, be more, be a great hero.
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That's inspiring, to be sure, but it doesn't change my worry that I'll end up with a luridly-written backstory that contradicts canon. To wit, what I want to do is combine these three elements:
Nosferatu dhampir
Knight of Ozem
Graydon family (from Knights of the Inner Sea).
But that raises a number of issues. The Graydons hail from Barstoi, easily the most draconian and conservative Ustalavic lands. The mandatory and often fanatical worship of Pharasma there seems to suggest any dhampir kids born there would be killed at birth. Plus, apparently Ustalavic noble tradition is an heir and a spare, and the third son joins the church of Pharasma. Worshiping Iomedae would literally be a crime punishable by death in Barstoi.
What I like about the family is their loyal nature (to the point where you get a free atonement from a trait), as well as the idea of redemption. The theme is this guy's seeking absolution for his heritage, not just for his bloodline, but also for the "heroics" of his family in the War Without Rivals. And given that Barstoi was the aggressor in that war and it created The Furrows, an area Carrion Crown PCs will see firsthand, I'd say it's safe to say many of those heroics were more like atrocities.
But I feel like these ideas are mutually exclusive. A Graydon would have no interest in joining the Knights of Ozem, and indeed might be prohibited by law from doing so. If a dhampir were entered into the Graydon family, he'd probably be a bastard at best, and thus not part of the family at all, or killed at birth at worst. And the Knights of Ozem probably aren't too keen on recruiting dhampir. Most evidence in the books points to dhampir heroes being lonely solo artists in the vein of D rather than knights in shining armor, especially since they're specifically focused on vampires rather than promoting good and slaying evil in general. Sort of the idea that "Ustalav could use some Iomedean justice and honor. This isn't just about stopping the Whispering Way, it's a pilgrimage to honor the Shining Crusade." that kind of thing...
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I am rereading the flavor. I think I got something.
Perhaps your mother hid your heritage.
Later, hid you with an adoptive family, hoping to spare you of harassment.
As you grew, you slowly became aware of your dark heritage.
This drove you to the worship of Iomodae, praying that one day you would be cleansed of the dark grasp your unholy heritage has upon your soul.
You feel that the royal blood within you is strong, and will win out.
You seek to prove your conviction by slaying the evil that taints the land.
You have never forgot the love of your mother, in spite of your heritage.
This holds with you, and allows you to look past the exterior, to see the true good in others.
If you are a paladin and take skill points for favored class bonus you end up not too far behind in skill ranks for the same amount of average HP... I dunno how dumb you want your character to be (Sorry, I'm biased, I like playing characters with +1 or +2 int even when it's not necessary).
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This is true. The only real reason I'm picking Inquisitor to begin with is because they have more SP than a paladin, but it's not just that. Inquisitors also have a wider variety of skills to spend those SPs on. They can track, they have more use for knowledge, and they have access to ALL the negotiation skills as opposed to just two. I share your bias for having at least a decent intelligence for any character.
Those are good suggestions, Blackbloodtroll. I had already considered the idea that the mother cared enough to try and save him (that's practically a prerequisite for a character like this anyway), and after all, lots of famous knightly heroes were raised outside their birth home, like my idol, King Arthur. Perhaps this character was one of those dhampir who was more "infected" than "conceived," his mother and father being human but his mother suffered a nosferatu attack and partly out of desperation to save the life of her and the child, his human father secretly broke the law by calling in not just Pharasmin priests, but those of other gods too, hoping for anything that might help his wife survive the pregnancy and the child survive his first few years.
Thinking of using the Dayborn racial trait replacing the Spell-like ability. I know it gives up the spell-like ability, but honestly I was probably just going to forget I had that anyway. It would be the result of the intense prayer, healing and ritual magic that accompanied his birth.
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Sounds like a good idea for the Nosteratu-born. Doom isn't a fantastic SLA anyway.
Having the numbers meet the concept is not some sort of sin.
If you are building a PC, and your flavor states you are good at something, it helps to actually be good at it.
Oh, I very much think that characters should be able to walk their talk, and it can be helpful for other posters to point out when you're making a mechanically non-optimal choice. But sometimes the concept imposes certain constraints on optimization - if you want to play a halfling barbarian, it simply will not be as optimized as a half-orc barbarian. If the OP decides he'd rather use a two-handed sword because it's mechanically superior and still fits with his concept, great, but if he really wants a sword-and-board fighter that's fine, too. Once the OP made this statement:
What I was asking was sort of "I've already decided what I want as a fighting style, what's the best subrace of the race I want to use that can accommodate that fighting style with this class and still be competent?"
... I figured he'd been made aware of his alternate options and could make his own choice about how much of the concept was flexible (fighting style, apparently) and how much was essential (dhampir race).