If you take an AoO you don't take the -5 penalty.
As far as I know, you do indeed treat the attack as secondary, meaning -5 on the attack roll and half the base Strength bonus.
Well it seems that is a -5 does apply. I always thought it only applied during full attacks, but I can't find anything to support that.
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The secondary attack penalty applies to CMB checks (all bonuses and panelties applied to a weapon you’re using for a CMB are applied as well). They list the blanket CMB and expect you to calculate using those bonuses and penalties yourself.
I think a lot of people may conflate the off-weapon rules and the secondary natural attack rules, as they are pretty similar. If you use multiple manufactured weapons to fight, let’s say a rapier as your primary, a dagger as your off hand, and an improved unarmed strike as your iterative, you could use any of those with no penalties as your AoO. As soon as your full attack ends, the two weapon fighting penalties and iterative makes end as well.
This is not true for secondary natural attacks, which remain secondary whether they are used in a full attack, attack action, or as an attack of opportunity.
Thanks for your replies! I'm not sure how I feel about it now - I agreed with the judgement.
However - I was looking around at different creatures with natural attacks, and I found a couple monsters which could help: the Marilith, Grodair, and the giant whiptail centipede.
Now, normally the marilith wields 6 weapons and has grab on their tail slap. Their other option, if the weapons aren't present, is 6 slams (primary) and the tail slap (secondary). It takes the -5 on the tail slap, buuuut...
The grapple with the tail doesn't take a penalty. It's listed as +24 (+28 grapple), which makes for: 16 (base) + 1 (size) + 7 (strength), +4 (grab, tail ability).
Another monster, a giant whiptail centipede, takes the -5 penalty on the attack roll with their tail (since they have a bite) but don't show any signs of a change of roll on their trip with the tail.
Same thing with the grodair and their bite vs tentacle trip. It just seems as though since the trip isn't affected (despite it being a different attempt) they could make an individual trip on a standard attack.
Does the secondary penalty not apply to combat maneuver rolls? To be fair this grab is during a full attack, but would the same happen if you attempted to trip a foe with the tail? Does it change if they have the trip ability on the tail where they get the automatic attempt after?
I'm glad you found that. It could help backup my previous thought.
Before I go into that I will tell you that combat maneuver checks are attack rolls so they should get the -5 penalty also for single attacks using secondary natural weapons if that penalty is to be applied for AoO attacks..
That lines up with me thinking that the -5 should not apply on attack rolls. The game is written assuming the secondary attack will be used with a full attack action, which will of course apply the -5 penalty. In most cases the primary attack is going to be the better weapon, and the game assumes you'll use the best option so they never wrote a rule clarifying that on single attacks the -5 doesn't apply. That is also the only way to get a combat maneuver check without -5 penalty. Otherwise the monster statblock is wrong, and it would need a rules exception to not apply the -5.
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It may seem wonky not to do the math for players and GMs in the stat blocks, but we must also remember that the +4 from Grab also applies to all grapple checks made to start or maintain grapples, and will be the full bonus when doing a maintain check, or when the creature does a Grapple maneuver as a standard action.
The stat blocks are meant to be consistent and somewhat easy to use. By factoring in all the math for a multitude of special abilities, they would get quite confusing. So as GMs we calculate the feats, special abilities, spells, and so on when we need to apply bonuses or penalties to the monster’s statistics.
A marilith doesn't usually grapple with just the tail--like most creatures, it grapples with its entire body (unless it takes the usual -20 for grappling with only one limb.) The tail simply facilitates the start of the grapple, and the secondary penalty for that is already handled in the attack that triggered the grab in the first place. Hence, the secondary weapon penalty doesn't typically apply.
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I see the two interpretations now. Looking at the Grab rules, it isn’t super explicit that you are “using that weapon” for the attack unless you take the -20.
So either you:
-say the Grab uses the bonuses/penalties of the weapon (like weapon finesse, weapon focus, secondary attack, etc)
-say the Grab is a normal CMB check (no extra bonuses/penalties applied for the associated natural attack)
Interesting.
As I understood it, that only applies when a creature has only one kind of natural attack. A marilith has two types. I frequently get natural attack stuff wrong, though.
this seems to be correct. It would still count as a secondary attack and so it would suffer the penalty.
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.
I would like to clarify something here.
When doing a single attack, that attack counts as a primary attack, no matter what it would be when using it in a full attack.
Quote a rule for this.
Bite Attacks have the additional str bonus anyways.
No they don't. Only dragon's bites have that special rule, plus monsters with special abilities explicitly stating so.
Sorry to disagree with so many good folks here, but no, natural secondary attacks never get treated as primary attacks. The ur-example here is the light horse, not trained for war.
Note that the light horse has two hoof attacks at -2/-2. That's +1 BAB +3 str -1 large -5 secondary = -2.
And please do not tell me that this is because the horse is making two attacks as a full round action, but as a standard attack it would lose the -5 penalty. As evidence, check out the wolliped, which has only one attack, and it is also always secondary.
Secondary natural attacks ALWAYS take the -5 penalty, unless the creature has the multiattack feat. For PCs, this most often matters for Summoners' eidolons, who can take a range of secondary natural attacks (tentacles, hooves, etc.) All of those always attack at -5
Sorry to disagree with so many good folks here, but no, natural secondary attacks never get treated as primary attacks. The ur-example here is the light horse, not trained for war.
Note that the light horse has two hoof attacks at -2/-2. That's +1 BAB +3 str -1 large -5 secondary = -2.
And please do not tell me that this is because the horse is making two attacks as a full round action, but as a standard attack it would lose the -5 penalty. As evidence, check out the wolliped, which has only one attack, and it is also always secondary.
Secondary natural attacks ALWAYS take the -5 penalty, unless the creature has the multiattack feat. For PCs, this most often matters for Summoners' eidolons, who can take a range of secondary natural attacks (tentacles, hooves, etc.) All of those always attack at -5
Nice post, but there's also opposing evidence as presented earlier with combat maneuvers which are attack rolls.
So with that being the case we have 3 possibilities.
1. Creatures such as horses have the wrong stats.
2. Creatures getting their full BAB on combat maneuvers with secondary natural attacks are incorrect.
3. Both are correct, but Paizo forgot to put in a rule saying that should happen.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'd like to know. I'll probably ask Mark and also open an FAQ. Since it's fairly simple they "should" be able to answer it.
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If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
But creatures like the horse specific rules:
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
I should go to work, so I don't have the time to search where it say that, but from what I recall, if you make a single attack you don't apply the secondary attack penalty unless there is a specific rule for that creature.
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.But creatures like the horse specific rules:
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.I should go to work, so I don't have the time to search where it say that, but from what I recall, if you make a single attack you don't apply the secondary attack penalty unless there is a specific rule for that creature.
I thought the rule existed, but I can't find it either.
Sorry to disagree with so many good folks here, but no, natural secondary attacks never get treated as primary attacks. The ur-example here is the light horse, not trained for war.
Note that the light horse has two hoof attacks at -2/-2. That's +1 BAB +3 str -1 large -5 secondary = -2.
And please do not tell me that this is because the horse is making two attacks as a full round action, but as a standard attack it would lose the -5 penalty. As evidence, check out the wolliped, which has only one attack, and it is also always secondary.
Secondary natural attacks ALWAYS take the -5 penalty, unless the creature has the multiattack feat. For PCs, this most often matters for Summoners' eidolons, who can take a range of secondary natural attacks (tentacles, hooves, etc.) All of those always attack at -5
Nice post, but there's also opposing evidence as presented earlier with combat maneuvers which are attack rolls.
So with that being the case we have 3 possibilities.
1. Creatures such as horses have the wrong stats.
2. Creatures getting their full BAB on combat maneuvers with secondary natural attacks are incorrect.
3. Both are correct, but Paizo forgot to put in a rule saying that should happen.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'd like to know. I'll probably ask Mark and also open an FAQ. Since it's fairly simple they "should" be able to answer it.
Yes, I'm replying to my own post. After looking at the post again that talk about the secondary attack not taking a penalty.
However the giant Octopus can only get a +19 on the grapple check as listed in the stat block by getting the full BAB to it's tentacle grapple check.
giant octopus
BAB +9
STR +5
CMB Size Bonus +1
Grab +4
The total bonus is a +19(which is what the book has).
The wolliped and the horse both have the docile trait. If trained for combat, which removes the docile train the secondary attack gets the full BAB for both animals.
The death head jelly fish is a monster with 2 tentacles as it's only natural attack.
BAB +1
STR +1
Size Bonus +1
The total bonus is a 3(which matches what is in the book)
The Sapphire Jellyfish also has numbers that match up.
The Bisha ga tsuku also matches up with the idea that secondary attacks can get a full BAB.
Another one is the Giant Shrimp Mantis
I think it's because of the following rule
If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
I imagine the docile trait overrules this, turning the horse's attacks back into secondary attacks.
Exactly. Most grapple checks do not get a penalty for using a secondary natural attack because they don't use particular weapons at all--usually, only disarm, trip, sunder, and (with trip weapons) drag and reposition get any modifiers related to a weapon. (This goes back to the old argument about whether an amulet of mighty fists improves grapple checks--it doesn't.) The lack of penalty to such checks in a monster's stat block is poor evidence for anything related to whether the penalty applies to regular attacks.
More on when weapons are/aren't involved with combat maneuvers
I listed example that only add up if you use grab, and grab only applies to certain limbs. There is no other way to make the math work.
The rules do account for you making a grapple check with a certain limb. That grab ability is not applied if you use a limb that does not have the grab ability applied to it.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack),...
That is a specific attack(weapon).
It then goes on to say this.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent.
So the grab is attack specific.
That shows that you only get the +4 with that limb
If you have another way to make the math work on a grab while ignoring the specific attack as mentioned in the rules then feel free to show the math.
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On the topic of secondary attacks always taking the -5
In addition I listed examples of monsters that only have secondary natural attacks that still benefit from the full BAB with no penalty.
If secondary attacks always had the -5 penalty, no matter what those who could only use secondary attacks would have the -5 penalty applied.
That post showing the math from me is only about 3 post up, and for some of the other monsters that I linked to I didn't show the math, but I did do the math, and it checks out.
edit:clarification
PART of the grab ability is limb specific; namely the automatic grapple check and the option to grapple with only a single limb. But part of it is not limb specific; namely the bonus to grapple and the fact that, shoudl you choose not to grapple with that specific limb, you are grappling with your entire body (much as any other creature would).
As for secondary attacks always having -5; even excluding feats, that is not always the case; if a creature only has one attack mode or one type of attack modes (ex. an octopus with 8 tenticles but no other methods of attack), then that attack or those attacks are treated as primary.
Just to be clear, I am using grab when I talk about limb specific grapples. I understand that +1 bonus to a bite attack does not apply to a grapple check because grapple as a whole does not care about bonuses to any attack. That is why weapon focus(grapple) exist because it shows generally speaking no bonus to a weapon will apply to grapple. So we agree when we say limb/attack specific bonuses don't apply to a grapple check.
I am using grab because it calls out limbs that specifically get the +4 to a grapple check, and it makes it easier to show the math to others that the -5 penalty for secondary attacks is not always on.
Merpius it does call out specific body parts attacks.
I even bolded it.
"Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack),..."
and
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent."
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If the body part doesn't matter why it saying that you have to hit with an indicated attack?
Also if it doesn't matter then why does it say to use the part of the body it used in the grab?
Are you saying that if a monster has grab on the tentacles, but not the bite that it can use the bite to start a grapple as a free action?
Are you saying that if a monster uses a tentacle with the grab ability, that it still gets benefit of grab, which is the +4 even if it does not use that tentacle to maintain the grab?
If so then why does it say "use the part of its body it used in the grab[/b] to hold the opponent." if you don't have to use that body part?
Yes I realize this is off topic from the secondary natural attacks topic, but I'm curious as to how you're reading things the way you are.
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As merpius points out, the +4 is not limited to specific limbs nor the triggering of the grab ability. It applies to all grapple checks made by the creature, period.
Good points. I assumed that the +4 required the limb, but it's true that nowhere is that specifically stated.