I mean characters in novels never end up with the kinds of weapons they want. This is why we alawys see Conan getting Wands of Fireball and wishing he had a good ax and why we always see Harry Potter swinging the Elder Axe, wishing he just a wand.I have to ask, am I the only one who finds all the talk of builds a little distasteful? Maybe it's just a sematantic thing, but if a player in front of me needs a +X Lucern Hammer because that's what his optimised build needs... he hasn't got a hope in hell. There simply aint that many people wandering around with Lucern Hammers. You should've chosen a more common weapon. On the other hand, if he's a well-rounded character with a bit of back story and a strong explanation for why he is on a life long quest to become the High Lord Lucern Hammerer of Hammerland... well, I can work with that.
I must admit, I don't like some of the fundamental economic assumptions about availability and cost of magic: that PF seems to rely on optimised characters to balance high level encounters; that magical items are easily made and easily sold; and Sandpoint, a small town of 1200 people has multiple shops that can buy and sell magic items.
I think it's inevitable if you're going to have Magic Item proliferation in this way, you're going to have players creating "builds" that lean on the expectation of freely available items. If you want to change that, you need to change quite a lot about how PF has been constructed. Not necessarily difficult, but a bit of a chore.
poor analogy... Harry had to quest for the Elder Wand; an entire book was dedicated to that quest. And he did not get it till the end of the book.
And Conan was master of all weapons and none of his weapons were ever magical.
Actually after Dumbledore died, Snape instantly owned it, that was why Voldemort couldn't win with it against Harry. Only Harry can use it to full power after Snape gave it to him.
After all, only Snape killed Dumbledore.
Thereafter, in the Conan cartoon, the sword Conan found was magical technically. The material it was built from was magical (in 3.0, Adamantine was +1 innately).
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I noticed a trend when it comes to theorycrafting in preparation to play a character or advice given for character creation.
It is generally assumed that you will have certain equipment or that your best equipment will be the type of equipment you specialize in.
For example, if you're planning to play a monk, it's assumed that you'll eventually get an Amulet of Mighty fist. If you're a fighter, you're assumed to get a Gloves of Dueling or that you're definitely going to get you are going to be using a greatsword from lvl 1-20.
Now enhancement bonuses and minor crafting are a given but does anyone else see it as odd that nobody really assumes that loot is going to be very random and/or what you want to buy isn't available? I guess you could craft what you want but the need for stuff is usually relegated to the people who are the worst at it, so if you want it you have to spend some feats to do that rather than doing anything else you could be doing.
Do most GMs just hand out what their players want out of loot/shops? Fighters get 4 tiers of weapon training, does 2-4 ever even get used?
For some of us, there's a middle ground. The core rulebook explains the sort of magic items that you can comfortably find in any given settlement based on GP limit. From the Magic Item Chapter...
Magic items are valuable, and most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith that specializes in magic swords. Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.
The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community. These guidelines assume a setting with an average level of magic. Some cities might deviate wildly from these baselines, subject to GM discretion. The GM should keep a list of what items are available from each merchant and should replenish the stocks on occasion to represent new acquisitions.
The number and types of magic items available in a community depend upon its size. Each community has a base value associated with it (see Table: Available Magic Items). There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community. In addition, the community has a number of other items for sale. These items are randomly determined and are broken down by category (minor, medium, or major). After determining the number of items available in each category, refer to Table: Random Magic Item Generation to determine the type of each item (potion, scroll, ring, weapon, etc.) before moving on to the individual charts to determine the exact item. Reroll any items that fall below the community's base value.
If you are running a campaign with low magic, reduce the base value and the number of items in each community by half. Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all. GMs running these sorts of campaigns should make some adjustments to the challenges faced by the characters due to their lack of magic gear.
Campaigns with an abundance of magic items might have communities with twice the listed base value and random items available. Alternatively, all communities might count as one size category larger for the purposes of what items are available. In a campaign with very common magic, all magic items might be available for purchase in a metropolis.
Nonmagical items and gear are generally available in a community of any size unless the item is particularly expensive, such as full plate, or made of an unusual material, such as an adamantine longsword. These items should follow the base value guidelines to determine their availability, subject to GM discretion.
The default values for communities are:
Thorpe = 50 gp + 1d4 minorHamlet = 200 gp + 1d6 minor
Village = 500 gp + 2d4 minor + 1d4 medium
Small Town = 1,000 gp + 3d4 minor + 1d6 medium
Large Town = 2,000 gp + 3d4 minor + 2d4 medium + 1d4 major
Small City = 4,000 gp + 4d4 minor + 3d4 medium + 1d6 major
Large City = 8,000 gp + 4d4 minor + 3d4 medium + 2d4 major
Metropolis = 16,000 gp + unlimited + 4d4 medium + 3d4 major
This means that that depending on the magic level of the campaign (something that should be discussed with the players at the beginning of a campaign unless it is using the standard assumptions) you can easily find and purchase the following items in a metropolis, with an average of 3 of a given item being available at a given time to purchase.
Standard Pathfinder Campaign
+3 Armors/Shields (9,000 gp)
+2 Weapons (8,000 gp)
+4 ability enhancement items (16,000 gp)
+2 deflection AC items (8,000 gp)
+2 natural enhancement AC items (8,000 gp)
+4 resistance to saves items (16,000 gp)
+2 amulet of mighty fists (16,000 gp)
9th level scrolls (except wish but gate is fine)
4th level wands* (CL 7, only up to 38 charges, CL 14 only up to 19 charges, etc)
3rd level wands* (CL 5, up to full charges, CL 10 only up to 35 charges, etc)
All potions*
*: Items less than 8,000 gp are available more or less on demand in a metropolis as they are categorized as minor magic items.
Low Magic Pathfinder Campaign
+2 Armors/Shields (4,000 gp)
+2 weapons (8,000 gp)
+2 ability modifier items (4,000 gp)
+2 deflection AC items (8,000 gp)
+2 natural enhancement AC items (8,000 gp)
+2 resistance to saves items (4,000 gp)
+1 amulet of mighty fists (4,000 gp)
9th level scrolls (except those with material components costing more than 4,175 gp)
4th level wands* (CL 7, only up to 19 charges, CL 14 only up to 9 charges, etc)
3rd level wands* (CL 5, up to 35 charges, CL 10 only up to 17 charges, etc)
All potions*
*: Items less than 8,000 gp are available more or less on demand in a metropolis as they are categorized as minor magic items.
High Magic Pathfinder Campaign
+5 Armors/Shields (25,000 gp)
+4 Weapons (32,000 gp)
+4 ability enhancement items (16,000 gp)
+4 deflection AC items (32,000 gp)
+4 natural enhancement AC items (32,000 gp)
+5 resistance to saves items (25,000 gp)
+2 amulet of mighty fists (16,000 gp)
9th level scrolls (including wish)
4th level wands* (CL 7, up to full charges, CL 14 only up to 38 charges, etc)
3rd level wands* (CL 5, up to full charges, CL 10 only up to full charges, etc)
All potions*
*: Items less than 8,000 gp are available more or less on demand in a metropolis as they are categorized as minor magic items.
Overall
Deviating from these standards put forth from the Core Rulebook should be discussed with your group at the beginning of your campaign. These standards help players not only understand the world a bit better but allow them to think about what sort of characters they are likely to pursue. For example, in a low-magic game players may be less inclined to play Fighters, Rogues, or Monks unless they can get a caster level via their race and pick up Item Creation feats, since they will be less likely to spend their hard earned treasure on anything better than a +2 weapon/armor/shield (monks are pretty screwed in all settings). Meanwhile high-magic is kinder to those classes since it gives them a chance to buy powerful magic items (+4 weapons, +5 armors/shields, +5 resistance items, etc) without needing to craft them or find them by luck or GM-fiat.
Since I generally assume core rules first, I never expect more than I can get in a standard campaign unless I can craft it myself. If your campaign is going to drastically change from these rules, then everyone in your group should know ahead of time so that they can take that into consideration (in a game where even minor magic items are rare, I would expect to see far more spellcasting classes among PCs, though I would be willing to play a Paladin or Ranger in such a game as well).
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Speaking of Magic Item Availability...
When I run games I generally go with the standard magic item purchase guidelines (IE - up to 16,000 gp in a metropolis). It's a pretty good means of ensuring that your players have a pretty solid variety of items to choose from (and +1 bane weapons can last you a long time).
More advanced items do exist in my campaigns, but you are generally going to have to either craft, quest for, or loot them. For example, you might be able to find a particularly awesome awesome suit of armor in a dragon's horde, or you might have to pry that +1 life-drinker out of a marilith's cold dead fingers. Alternatively you might take some downtime from your adventure and craft your own magic items (I encourage people to not only craft their own but to give them names and such, and I'll occasionally use said items in the narratives of later campaigns or PCs may develop reputations for creating wonderful items).
Sometimes you need flexibility on the player side as well.Uh, because it's relevant to the story? You know, like if it was created by/sacred to a god. St Cuthbert for example.Why put the plot device weapon as a weapon you know your players weren't going to use? Doesn't matter how many +5 vorpal blades you lay out for my archer he's stll not going to use them. Or how many greatswords you lay out if my character is a dagger wielding street tough.
Confused havoc is confused.
Not allowed. Only the GM must be flexible.
Sarcasm mode disengage.
Even in fantasy the super awesome weapon that can kill the evil god king is almost 99.99% of the time the hero's normal style of weapon. I understand both sides being flexible but what I'm getting here is I'm the DM and you'd better take what I give you AND LIKE IT!!
Even in fantasy the super awesome weapon that can kill the evil god king is almost 99.99% of the time the hero's normal style of weapon. I understand both sides being flexible but what I'm getting here is I'm the DM and you'd better take what I give you AND LIKE IT!!Sometimes you need flexibility on the player side as well.Uh, because it's relevant to the story? You know, like if it was created by/sacred to a god. St Cuthbert for example.Why put the plot device weapon as a weapon you know your players weren't going to use? Doesn't matter how many +5 vorpal blades you lay out for my archer he's stll not going to use them. Or how many greatswords you lay out if my character is a dagger wielding street tough.
Confused havoc is confused.
Not allowed. Only the GM must be flexible.
Sarcasm mode disengage.
It works out that way in stories because there is only the writer playing all the parts. The author of a book doesn't have to deal with other writers creating and managing the characters in his story while he just provides the background.
If you begin an adventure to help the church of St Cuthbert rid the world of some foul evil, it seems to me pretty practical to expect to have some sort of cudgel at some point.
Let's look at it another way.
GM: OK guys, I've created a campaign that is going to be similar to ancient Egyptian mythology and setting. Make some characters and we'll get rolling.
Player A: I'm making a Tengu kensai magus that uses katanas.
Player B: I'm making a Kitsune ninja!
Player C: I'm making a Tiefling bloatmage.
Player D: I'm making a Dhampir paladin.
GM: Uh, let's just forget the whole Egypt thing. What else do you guys wanna do?
One of my worlds tends to have it so many(not all) items, weapons etcetera "bond" with their owners and tend to grow in power as the bond with their life-force grows stronger and the item becomes more identified with THEM; if another person picked up that sword however it might be almost nothing to them. Often the properties it picks up will have something to do with how it's used. But in that I've had someone retire with that same rusty but slightly glowing magic sword they picked up in their first adventure, which had grown with them and was almost as recognized as they were by that point.Speaking of Magic Item Availability...
When I run games I generally go with the standard magic item purchase guidelines (IE - up to 16,000 gp in a metropolis). It's a pretty good means of ensuring that your players have a pretty solid variety of items to choose from (and +1 bane weapons can last you a long time).More advanced items do exist in my campaigns, but you are generally going to have to either craft, quest for, or loot them. For example, you might be able to find a particularly awesome awesome suit of armor in a dragon's horde, or you might have to pry that +1 life-drinker out of a marilith's cold dead fingers. Alternatively you might take some downtime from your adventure and craft your own magic items (I encourage people to not only craft their own but to give them names and such, and I'll occasionally use said items in the narratives of later campaigns or PCs may develop reputations for creating wonderful items).
The Drow War campaign contained rules for creating those types of weapons.
I have less than that available for things like shopping. I don't like the magic mart effect. My magic items are probably on the low side of normal, but not low magic. On the other hand, with all players, I do sorta have a compact that I am looking out for them and will pepper the things they find with good stuff that can be used by the various players and that fits their various themes, and that there will even be some special items that you have been really looking for.
But, it's not going to be like making a list and crossing off the items on it one by one as you find them in the store.
That's entirely understandable. I really think it's a matter of taste. In my campaigns the majority of magic items you find in settlements are crafted by adepts (the little NPC class guys) with specializations in Spellcraft. These are relatively minor characters aren't heroic, but you can find them even in the smallest of communities. Most adepts in my campaigns will generally invest their feats into item creation, such as...
1st: Scribe Scroll + Skill Focus (if Human or Half-Elf)
3rd: Craft Wondrous Item or Brew Potion
5th: Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Craft Wand
7th: Forge Ring
9th: Craft Rod
According to the Bestiary, these adepts range from CR 1/3 through CR 4. -1 to CR if they are not geared for combat (if all their NPC treasure value is non-combat items like masterwork tools, traps in their stores, etc). With standard NPC 3 point buy, they don't have much HP and are pretty close to just being normal people (the most powerful of them tend to have between 22-31 HP).
If I was going to restrict item purchasing, I'd definitely have to crank up the number of dungeon-crawls that I included in my campaign to let players collect some shweet ancient shwag. Though honestly I prefer to use that sort of thing for exotic items that I include special stories for.
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It works out that way in stories because there is only the writer playing all the parts. The author of a book doesn't have to deal with other writers creating and managing the characters in his story while he just provides the background.
If you begin an adventure to help the church of St Cuthbert rid the world of some foul evil, it seems to me pretty practical to expect to have some sort of cudgel at some point.
Agreed. This is one of the reasons I'm not particularly fond of the Fighter's Weapon Training. >_>
Let's look at it another way.
GM: OK guys, I've created a campaign that is going to be similar to ancient Egyptian mythology and setting. Make some characters and we'll get rolling.
Player A: I'm making a Tengu kensai magus that uses katanas.
Player B: I'm making a Kitsune ninja!
Player C: I'm making a Tiefling bloatmage.
Player D: I'm making a Dhampir paladin.
GM: Uh, let's just forget the whole Egypt thing. What else do you guys wanna do?
Well the last two sound fine. The first two might be strangers in a strange land and would be a great excuse to display/talk about/explore things that would be common knowledge to anyone who lived in the region their whole lives. I'm currently running a periodic campaign on the side of my normal campaign for some other friends of mine that's set in a pseudo-egyptian place. They've been dealing with traveling through deserts, exploring ancient pyramids, getting the crap kicked out of them by angry jackal-faced mummies (mummy rot sucks by the way), and more.
The party in that campaign consists of a succubus-themed tiefling psion, a planetouched elementalist psion, and the squishiest goblin wizard I've ever seen (he's like 8th level with like 12 HP). So far it's been highly amusing with them learning about the places they're exploring. I'm kind of concerned for them though since there's an encounter I'm pretty sure they can do nothing against (I don't think they have any "SR: No" effects and that could be bad).
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Really, not sure how a Tengu and Kitsune don't fit thematically in Ancient Egypt.
Things with animal heads were kinda a thing there.
I mean characters in novels never end up with the kinds of weapons they want. This is why we alawys see Conan getting Wands of Fireball and wishing he had a good ax and why we always see Harry Potter swinging the Elder Axe, wishing he just a wand.I have to ask, am I the only one who finds all the talk of builds a little distasteful? Maybe it's just a sematantic thing, but if a player in front of me needs a +X Lucern Hammer because that's what his optimised build needs... he hasn't got a hope in hell. There simply aint that many people wandering around with Lucern Hammers. You should've chosen a more common weapon. On the other hand, if he's a well-rounded character with a bit of back story and a strong explanation for why he is on a life long quest to become the High Lord Lucern Hammerer of Hammerland... well, I can work with that.
I must admit, I don't like some of the fundamental economic assumptions about availability and cost of magic: that PF seems to rely on optimised characters to balance high level encounters; that magical items are easily made and easily sold; and Sandpoint, a small town of 1200 people has multiple shops that can buy and sell magic items.
I think it's inevitable if you're going to have Magic Item proliferation in this way, you're going to have players creating "builds" that lean on the expectation of freely available items. If you want to change that, you need to change quite a lot about how PF has been constructed. Not necessarily difficult, but a bit of a chore.
poor analogy... Harry had to quest for the Elder Wand; an entire book was dedicated to that quest. And he did not get it till the end of the book.
And Conan was master of all weapons and none of his weapons were ever magical.Actually after Dumbledore died, Snape instantly owned it, that was why Voldemort couldn't win with it against Harry. Only Harry can use it to full power after Snape gave it to him.
After all, only Snape...
Someone needs to re-read the last book...
Snape was never the owner of the Elder Wand.It went from Grendalwald to Dumbledore to Draco to Harry.
Which is why I said both sides need to be flexible if the campaign is set in Ancient Greece it's probably not the best place for that Wild West cowboy you always wanted to play.
Which is why I said both sides need to be flexible if the campaign is set in Ancient Greece it's probably not the best place for that Wild West cowboy you always wanted to play.
Cue the cries of: "But... But... But... the books say the Gunslinger is a valid class!"
Even in fantasy the super awesome weapon that can kill the evil god king is almost 99.99% of the time the hero's normal style of weapon. I understand both sides being flexible but what I'm getting here is I'm the DM and you'd better take what I give you AND LIKE IT!!Sometimes you need flexibility on the player side as well.Uh, because it's relevant to the story? You know, like if it was created by/sacred to a god. St Cuthbert for example.Why put the plot device weapon as a weapon you know your players weren't going to use? Doesn't matter how many +5 vorpal blades you lay out for my archer he's stll not going to use them. Or how many greatswords you lay out if my character is a dagger wielding street tough.
Confused havoc is confused.
Not allowed. Only the GM must be flexible.
Sarcasm mode disengage.
It works out that way in stories because there is only the writer playing all the parts. The author of a book doesn't have to deal with other writers creating and managing the characters in his story while he just provides the background.
If you begin an adventure to help the church of St Cuthbert rid the world of some foul evil, it seems to me pretty practical to expect to have some sort of cudgel at some point.
Exactly! And it wasn't like the GM was saying "Ah-ha-ha! You can never use a falchion ever again! From now on, your character can only use great clubs!"
this thread really makes me want to see paizo create a sub-system that lets you bypass magic items.
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this thread really makes me want to see paizo create a sub-system that lets you bypass magic items.
Eh, you can come up with your own pretty easily, I did.
It's really only the added raw numbers you need. If doing it today, I'd have +2 Inherent bonus to one Ability (stacking up to a +6, total) instead of a spell-like ability each time I gave one and remove the need for items altogether.
I hate to be that guy who targets a specific examples, but this example right here doesn't actually impinge on an Egyptian campaign at all.Tengu could be a people blessed by (maybe even descended from!) Thoth or Horus. The Katana bit is an odd part that would need to be dealt with, but the same could be said for the bulk of the Core weapons, including the traditional longsword.
Shapeshifting fills Egyptian mythology, and there are at least three different / species of fox native/naturalized to Egypt. (The Red Fox subspecies native to the region, commonly called the Nile Fox, is actually more of a grey color but it's still Vulpes vulpes) and Egypt is no stranger to legends of supernatural thieves/assassins.
Egypt is certainly not without its demons/malevolent semi-deities from whence Tieflings could spawn. I don't really see how Bloatmage would be any weirder in Egypt than it is in semi-europe. In fact, the very concept...
And this is a perfect example of the players justifying their right to play whatever special snowflake they want regardless of the GM's vision for the game.
Good stuff
I like all of this and may co-opt some or all of it into our next go around. It fits in with a great deal of what we are doing at our table already. Great job!
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Player: I want to build my character this way. That will include shooting for a magic greatsword.
GM: Ok, I've got some choices here. I can:
1. give the player what he wants (player entitlement)
2. give the player what I want - not fun for the player but I'm happy
3. play a session involving shopping - can be quite boring for everyone
4. make the player craft it/have it crafted (player entitlement)
5. create a balanced subsystem or employ one already made to add bonuses without material needs - too many rules
There are pros and cons to all of these. We as GMs choose the least evil from the list that works for us. Personally I just give the players what they want. They build based on wanting to see a certain combo come to fruition. I feel my job as GM is to help them achieve that.
Now this doesn't mean they don't work for it. They don't just say "gimmie a belt of strength!" and I bow and scrape and one falls from the sky. No, instead I know ahead of time that they'll need the item. Then they fight a monster; a truly frightening monster made all the more frightening by the fact that its wearing/wielding/usurping the power of the item the PC wants. Or maybe there's a legend that partially encapsulates the item they want.
Whatever, TL/DR. Bottom line, for me it's more about working WITH my players instead of against them. If that includes items alongside powers and experiences they want, I provide them in a fun way.
Player: I want to build my character this way. That will include shooting for a magic greatsword.
GM: Ok, I've got some choices here. I can:
1. give the player what he wants (player entitlement)
2. give the player what I want - not fun for the player but I'm happy
3. play a session involving shopping - can be quite boring for everyone
4. make the player craft it/have it crafted (player entitlement)
5. create a balanced subsystem or employ one already made to add bonuses without material needs - too many rules
There are pros and cons to all of these. We as GMs choose the least evil from the list that works for us. Personally I just give the players what they want. They build based on wanting to see a certain combo come to fruition. I feel my job as GM is to help them achieve that.
Now this doesn't mean they don't work for it. They don't just say "gimmie a belt of strength!" and I bow and scrape and one falls from the sky. No, instead I know ahead of time that they'll need the item. Then they fight a monster; a truly frightening monster made all the more frightening by the fact that its wearing/wielding/usurping the power of the item the PC wants. Or maybe there's a legend that partially encapsulates the item they want.
Whatever, TL/DR. Bottom line, for me it's more about working WITH my players instead of against them. If that includes items alongside powers and experiences they want, I provide them in a fun way.
This is more or less what I've been trying to say.
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Player: I want to build my character this way. That will include shooting for a magic greatsword.
GM: Ok, I've got some choices here. I can:
1. give the player what he wants (player entitlement)
2. give the player what I want - not fun for the player but I'm happy
3. play a session involving shopping - can be quite boring for everyone
4. make the player craft it/have it crafted (player entitlement)
5. create a balanced subsystem or employ one already made to add bonuses without material needs - too many rules
There are pros and cons to all of these. We as GMs choose the least evil from the list that works for us. Personally I just give the players what they want. They build based on wanting to see a certain combo come to fruition. I feel my job as GM is to help them achieve that.
Now this doesn't mean they don't work for it. They don't just say "gimmie a belt of strength!" and I bow and scrape and one falls from the sky. No, instead I know ahead of time that they'll need the item. Then they fight a monster; a truly frightening monster made all the more frightening by the fact that its wearing/wielding/usurping the power of the item the PC wants. Or maybe there's a legend that partially encapsulates the item they want.
Whatever, TL/DR. Bottom line, for me it's more about working WITH my players instead of against them. If that includes items alongside powers and experiences they want, I provide them in a fun way.
Other then the player entitlement comment, I agree with you. The game assumes a certain amount of wealth in magic items. This isnt because the wealth is important, its because the power those items represent If you do not give the players items that are useful to their characters they dont actually have that wealth. They have things that add to their encumberance. Its not helping them overcome their challenges. If you give a fighter who has weapon focus/weapon spec great sword, as well as weapon training in heavy and light blades a magic whip, the characters' ability is essentially unchanged. If he uses the whip he wont be as effective, if he doesnt use it, he wont have the magical item.
So in the rules as written (with the assumed wealth, and using the existing CR system for enemies), the players need to be given items that work for their characters. How specific those items need to be is obviously open for debate. But random is almost always bad(in my opinion). Because random leaves something neccessary for the game to function appropriately up to chance.
Personally I've done away with the whole damned thing. I use option 5, i've written a set of magic items replacement rules so the bulk of magic items are more or less unnecesary, and the constant switching in and out of items is definately uneccesary. My players will get a couple magic items I choose over the course of their careers and thats it. But I have given them the bonuses they NEED elsewhere in a form they are able to choose from so the items can come where its appropriate and flavorful for the story, and not from a magic mart or a 'loot drop'
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If my character is an axe wielding barbarian and you give him a greatsword it's not going to match the image of the character. This sounds more like a videogame mentality than any of the "powergamer" arguments I've ever heard.
I might SOUND like it, but it's not, because that idea came out before there WERE video games. If anything, fantasy video gaming took the idea of picking up better gear and using it just because it's better from D&D.
3. play a session involving shopping - can be quite boring for everyone
Okay, a whole SESSION of shopping is boring. Playing a session INVOLVING a few minutes of shopping is not the same.
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Verisimilitude. This is something I like in my games.
"Magic Mart' is pretty fatal to verisimilitude in my view. Magic Mart turns every substantial settlement into a place swimming with high level crafters (where else can your expensive weapons and items come from?) or at very least a place frequented by high level casters, who evidently have nothing better to do with their time than use it making toys for adventurers. This requires (if you're going to even attempt to maintain verisimilitude) that magic shops have appropriate security for all the items that are expensive enough to fund lavish lifestyles for many years if sold.
I don't go in for Magic Mart, but I don't do entirely random loot drops either. The party will either make use of what they find, or they'll trade it in where possible. If they want specific magic items they can either craft them or commission them. This maintains verisimilitude in the campaign. If you go fighting goblins and bugbears, they will have weapons and items appropriate to goblins and bugbears, and maybe some stuff that they've taken from their previous victims. If you kill a Dragon, you can expect a wide variety of items in its hoard (assuming it is of a reasonable age). Examples from current campaign: the dwarf fighter/cleric wants a more powerful magic sword than the one he's got. He has a more powerful morningstar, but he prefers the "precision" (i.e. crit threat range) of the sword, and so eschews the morningstar that was taken from a Bugbear chief. When the players return to civilisation the dwarf PC will be able to trade both these weapons for a better sword, if he wishes. If he asks for the "best" sword available, it will have the highest enhancement bonus available from the resident vendors. If he wants a +1 keen dragon bane orc bane longsword, he's going to have to commission it. Another PC (a half orc barbarian type) has decided he wants to commission a weapon that will grow with him, similar to the idea mentioned up-thread (and in 3.5e described fully by the Weapons of Legacy rules), which is OK by me.
I also play PFS, in which all treasure is bought. This is fine for organised play where the playing field must be kept equal, but it's not how I want my home campaign. I don't use point buy for character generation in my home campaign either. Again, verisimilitude.
As always in our hobby there is no One True Way to play, and YMMV.
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And this is a perfect example of the players justifying their right to play whatever special snowflake they want regardless of the GM's vision for the game.
I don't think reworking a character concept so it logically fits in with the campaign setting is equal to "special snowflake". Egyptian Mythology has bird-headed figures, Egyptian Mythology has bladed weapons. How does a Tengu NOT fit in to the vision? I haven't read The Book of the Dead (Budge translation) for quite a while, but there was some really bizarro stuff in there, and a bird man doesn't even remotely seem like a stretch.
Player: I want to build my character this way. That will include shooting for a magic greatsword.
GM: Ok, I've got some choices here. I can:
1. give the player what he wants (player entitlement)
2. give the player what I want - not fun for the player but I'm happy
3. play a session involving shopping - can be quite boring for everyone
4. make the player craft it/have it crafted (player entitlement)
5. create a balanced subsystem or employ one already made to add bonuses without material needs - too many rules
There are pros and cons to all of these. We as GMs choose the least evil from the list that works for us. Personally I just give the players what they want. They build based on wanting to see a certain combo come to fruition. I feel my job as GM is to help them achieve that.
Now this doesn't mean they don't work for it. They don't just say "gimmie a belt of strength!" and I bow and scrape and one falls from the sky. No, instead I know ahead of time that they'll need the item. Then they fight a monster; a truly frightening monster made all the more frightening by the fact that its wearing/wielding/usurping the power of the item the PC wants. Or maybe there's a legend that partially encapsulates the item they want.
Whatever, TL/DR. Bottom line, for me it's more about working WITH my players instead of against them. If that includes items alongside powers and experiences they want, I provide them in a fun way.
I tend to like 4 the best because there's already rules for it. I couldn't really say that there's an entitlement thing going there.
5 is partially my plan for the next campaign I'm planning. I picked up two third party products, one that gives enhancement bonuses to staves and one that puts sockets and enhancement gems on things. Players will wind up finding more gems (since it's mostly a subterranean campaign) and be able to put the gems of whatever effect they want into their items and sell the rest. BOOM! Instant legacy weapons/items. (I just now realized this sounds like FFVII materia.)
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Verisimilitude. This is something I like in my games.
"Magic Mart' is pretty fatal to verisimilitude in my view. Magic Mart turns every substantial settlement into a place swimming with high level crafters (where else can your expensive weapons and items come from?) or at very least a place frequented by high level casters, who evidently have nothing better to do with their time than use it making toys for adventurers. This requires (if you're going to even attempt to maintain verisimilitude) that magic shops have appropriate security for all the items that are expensive enough to fund lavish lifestyles for many years if sold.
Nope. A properly specialized crafter can craft pretty much anything by level 5 or so.
5 ranks, 16 Int (18 if he crafts himself a headband), class skill, Skill Focus = +15, enough to craft a fair bit of things while taking 10. Now they'll need to be a bit higher to craft the REALLY good stuff that requires both a high caster level and high level spells (because taking a -10 on everything hurts), but I don't see the issue with you needing a high level crafter to get a +6-10 sword, a Staff of the Master, and stuff like that.
So not a problem with verisimilitude at all, just dedicated craftsmen actually being good at their craft.
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I don't think reworking a character concept so it logically fits in with the campaign setting is equal to "special snowflake". Egyptian Mythology has bird-headed figures, Egyptian Mythology has bladed weapons. How does a Tengu NOT fit in to the vision? I haven't read The Book of the Dead (Budge translation) for quite a while, but there was some really bizarro stuff in there, and a bird man doesn't even remotely seem like a stretch.
And this is a perfect example of the players justifying their right to play whatever special snowflake they want regardless of the GM's vision for the game.
I would say "but my character could exist in the mythology of the world" is a perfect example of "special snowflake" messing with a campaign setting. Because unless it is the premise of the campaign common people being likely to either fall prone in worship or flee in terror before your level 1 magus will be rather disrupting to the plot. Alternatively making NPCs indifferent to your party resembling a supernatural circus troupe just so every trip to a town doesn't start with being dragged to jail or the church or just being stabbed on sight can be equally campaign disrupting.
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@Rynjin: does the +5 to craft DC for "missing a prerequisite" also apply to Caster Level? I admit I am much more familiar with item crafting procedure in 3.5e than in Pathfinder. If a PF crafter can ignore minimum caster level by taking a +5 hit to the DC then yes, it seems like relatively low level crafters can make a lot more items. Doesn't feel right to me mind you.
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Is it me or does "entitled" have to meanings to it?
1) Are the PCs entitled to have nice things, within the boundaries of WBL? Yes, and "nice" includes being compatible with the basic character concept.
2) Are some players obsessive optimizing whiners with an overblown sense of entitlement? Sure ;) There's probably some of those around. I haven't experienced them firsthand though.
Given how much the game system wants you to specialize in specific weapons (Weapon Focus -> Weapon Specialization, feat chains for obscure weapons like whips, Kensai), it's an unfortunate artifact of game design that for something to be "nice" for the players, you may have to give them the very specific thing they were shooting for. An entirely different good item would set them back several feats, and at that point it's really not "nice" anymore.
There's several workable solutions here;
A) Broaden these game features that require you to select a single weapon, to perhaps apply to an entire weapon group.
B) Be very generous about retraining such specialization. Not really great, because players may still have their head set on one thing, when you're trying to retrain them to use another thing.
C) Work with the player to give them a real shot at the item they really want. When they come to the local magic shop, the vendor tells them he doesn't have +6-equivalent guisarmes, but he can ask around because he knows magic item salespeople in other cities too. Also, these are probably the people who know about all the major historical weapons and where they might be found.
D) Crafting.
While I would introduce A and B just to be sure, I like C the best. It doesn't break immersion for me; selling magic items is like selling weapons to South-American drug cartels or African guerilla movements. You MUST keep a sharp eye on the competition and make friends, or you won't live ling.
I don't think I'm giving in to excessive player spoiledness with this. It's their game too, they also get a say in what would be cool to happen. They're not getting to that Vorpal Whip for free; weird items are not likely to be in stock. But if the player decides that would be really cool, then I'll figure out a quest to get it.
As for D, crafting: I'm okay with PCs crafting a few things, I don't want it to be the cost-effective option. I really don't want everyone to basically fall into a rut of selling all loot and using the magic to make the loot you would've actually wanted. My solution is to remove the 50% discount crafting gives on the item price. That should remove most of the powergaming incentive.
I would say "but my character could exist in the mythology of the world" is a perfect example of "special snowflake" messing with a campaign setting. Because unless it is the premise of the campaign common people being likely to either fall prone in worship or flee in terror before your level 1 magus will be rather disrupting to the plot. Alternatively making NPCs indifferent to your party resembling a supernatural circus troupe just so every trip to a town doesn't start with being dragged to jail or the church or just being stabbed on sight can be equally campaign disrupting.I don't think reworking a character concept so it logically fits in with the campaign setting is equal to "special snowflake". Egyptian Mythology has bird-headed figures, Egyptian Mythology has bladed weapons. How does a Tengu NOT fit in to the vision? I haven't read The Book of the Dead (Budge translation) for quite a while, but there was some really bizarro stuff in there, and a bird man doesn't even remotely seem like a stretch.
And this is a perfect example of the players justifying their right to play whatever special snowflake they want regardless of the GM's vision for the game.
Thank you for exactly making my point while I was out working. This is exactly my point about these kinds of characters in this setting. Every town across the world the PCs wander into has half the town slaughtering their goats to appease the tengu and kitsune and the other half trying to kill the devil and the creature that has returned from the dead. I'm not a fan of "but... but... PCCCCCCCCC!"
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Sounds like a very anthropocentric position to take.
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Thank you for exactly making my point while I was out working. This is exactly my point about these kinds of characters in this setting. Every town across the world the PCs wander into has half the town slaughtering their goats to appease the tengu and kitsune and the other half trying to kill the devil and the creature that has returned from the dead. I'm not a fan of "but... but... PCCCCCCCCC!"
So...a human only game is what you're looking for?
PCs are by their very nature special. It's fine if you want to fight that, but strange races and exotic weapons are one of the ways as a PC you're able to differentiate yourself from the commoner lot.
Personally, I think removing crafting feats and just letting anyone who put the investment in Craft would work for crafting, but in most of the games i'm seeing here, getting a party crafter would be priorty #1. Heck, a fun idea might be to have everyone in the party specialize in one crafting ability, so that downtime wasn't the mage crafting alone while everyone sat and waited for him.
Give the Fighter the ability to make his weapon of yore (possibly with the fang of the Giardwyrm that the party slayed), the Wizard makes his staves, Cleric pumping out rings, and the Rogue (or whomever if filling their slot) is being a jack of all trades with CWI.
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Heh. Ancient Egyptian mythology has so much weird and awesome stuff that I am smiling just thinking about it.
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Sounds like a very anthropocentric position to take.
After looking up anthropocentric, yes it is. Unless your setting consists of nothing but incredibly diverse cities full of various outsiders people are gonna be freaked out by the demon horns.
If GM has a setting 99% inhabited by the 6 core races and a player wants to be a half outside for the stats, to look cool, or just to be different but doesn't want that to become a problem when they go to purchase their +1 keen flaming burst falchion from the magic mart then I would say that's all kinds of entitlement.