Or, you know, you can have A 2ND WIZARD FILLINg THE "ROGUE" SLOT.
Rather than forcing the 1 wizard play 2 roles you have your "god" wizard doing his thing, and then you can have a Seeker Sorcerer with the Umbral Bloodline act as a scout. You can then have Ravingdork's Transmuter of sheer retardedness act as the tank and a Witch to cover curing. Hey! An all full arcane casting party
I have like 20 traps in a small dungeon...more than that in a large one.
That wizard is going through a lot of scrolls and other things trying to be a rogue.
Also, if they create an alarm...every door is going to be locked, much less the chests and drawers.
This looks like a thing of a caster with over 60 spells....
Gonna stink when they have to fight the enemies as well and except for a few higher level spells, the wizard turns out to be absolutely worthless compared to my fully prepped NPC sorcerer...
But, to each their own...
1) Intentionally trying to screw with your party makes you a bad DM.
2) Seeker sorcerer can disable magical traps. and anyone can pick a lock...
3) only 1 sorcerer is playing rogue. And it has been shown time and again, that a Seeker sorcerer can top a rogue at the "trap guy" thing. If you are Crossblooded Shadow/Sage Seeker things get even more ridiculous since you now have just as many skill points as a rogue. So again, short of you trying to create a contrived and ridiculous scenario, the sorcerer wins.
Skills are like having persistent utility spells.
In 3.5 persistent was a +6 adjuster to the level of the spell.
3rd level spells or lower replace skills.
3+6 = 9 as in 9th level spells
Therefore, rogues are equivalent to full casters
UNARGUABLE MATH!
If you're doing with magic what you could be doing with spells, your wizard is a wasteful idiot that will eventually end up in a situation where he will have wasted all his magic trying to prove that the rogue is obsolete, and won't have the necessary magic to prove that the wizard himself is actually needed as anything other than a limited use rogue-wannabe.Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.People keep saying this, but I would love to see concrete examples that magic isn't the answer.
Btw, I mostly GM, and I try to make skills relevant, but it gets hard. Except for knowledges, those stay relevant for a long time.
How about a concrete example, like I requested? Exactly what skills does the rogue (or whoever, this isn't really a rogue thread) bring that make the saving spells useful for the wizard? Especially in the mid to high level range, say level 9 and up?
I'm not anti-skills. I'm looking for ways to keep them relevant, beyond knowledges, perception, spellcraft, and UMD.
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Skills are not useless. They are just overrated.
Having a few extra skill points per level is simply not worth nearly as much as many players and game designers seem to think it is...
Some skills are useful the whole campaign, others are easily replaced by low level spells, and most are somewhere inbetween. There is even the odd case of Stealth, that is quickly replaced by Invisibility, but later on, becomes useful again when enemies start having more and more ways to detect invisible creatures.
Skills are like having persistent utility spells.
In 3.5 persistent was a +6 adjuster to the level of the spell.
3rd level spells or lower replace skills.
3+6 = 9 as in 9th level spells
Therefore, rogues are equivalent to full casters
UNARGUABLE MATH!
Sure, that math is unarguable IF skills yielded benefits such as those low level spells as opposed to being eclipsed by them.
Skill ranks in Fly giving you superhero flight. Skill ranks in Stealth giving you Invisibility, etc etc.
That's not the sort of thing many people want in their fantasy roleplaying (for some reason or other.)
I think he was joking, Kyrt,
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Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.
Enough of this arrogant, self-righteous, pretentious,smug ,snide disingenuous bloviating. Its nothing but an insult to anyone that would dare disagree with the great and glorious YOU.
You do not know how other people you've never met play.
You do not know what goes on at our gaming tables.
You don't know us.
You are not a better gamer than us and you are certainly not the gods gift to gaming that you would have to be to look this far down your noses without even feeling the need to make an argument for your case.
The entire point, which has been expounded on, evidenced, demonstrated, shown and outright proved is that spells are better at skills job than the skills are.
There is nothing, NOTHING, in taking an optimal choice that prevents or even inhibits the characters from thinking, role playing, creativity or breathing life into their characters. They are two completely seperate arguments.
If your own position is so vacuous as to require conflating the two in order to have the merest appearance of a point its time to reconsider either your means of argumentation or better yet your position.
@GreyWolfLord
There are a few issues with your post, let's see if we can spot them all.
I have like 20 traps in a small dungeon...more than that in a large one.
Not sure if you're aware of this, but traps award XP as if they were encounters. Let's say the party is four PCs of level 5 on the medium advancement track, and are facing 20 lvl 5 traps. Each trap disabled or avoided awards the party 1600XP, or 400 xp apiece. So each time your party goes through a small dungeon, avoiding all the enemies (and fun combat) and wait around while the rogue takes 10 on a perception check and rolls a disable device check, they gain 8000 XP each. The difference between level 5 and level 6 is, whadya know, 8000 XP. So your party just leveled up by going through a single small dungeon, and having no meaningful interaction with anything except disabling traps. You better give them some treasure soon though, since they're now 22k behind the expected WBL.
That wizard is going through a lot of scrolls and other things trying to be a rogue.
The typical wizard (or sage sorcerer, for that matter) will not be using scrolls to disable traps. That said, this thread is not about replacing rogues with other classes - there is a cornucopia somewhere churning out those threads already, no point to turn this thread into one as well.
Also, if they create an alarm...every door is going to be locked, much less the chests and drawers.
Gonna stink when they have to fight the enemies as well and except for a few higher level spells, the wizard turns out to be absolutely worthless compared to my fully prepped NPC sorcerer...
Awesome! Finally something the fighter can do instead of waiting around while the rogue rolls 40 skill checks. As a bonus, killing level-appropriate mobs has a decent chance of giving them treasure.
This looks like a thing of a caster with over 60 spells....
Clearly, math is hard.
But, to each their own...
Something we agree on! Excellent! Enjoy your tiny trap-riddled dungeon :)
Finally, a few general words on traps:
Damage traps by themselves tend to be binary. Either they do enough damage to kill someone outright (which is both terrifying and profoundly bad game design), or they don't do enough damage to kill someone outright - in which case they're merely speed bumps: The party will simply burn a few CLW charges to heal up and continue on their way. Equally troubling, traps are boring. Roll Perception, roll Disable Device. All done? Next please!
At the same time, traps award sufficient XP that they are meant to and should be used sparingly.
Traps are a bit like difficult terrain in that it's basically seasoning - you should never eat it by itself. Ideally you want to use it as an ingredient in a greater project to enhance the overall experience.
Requiring acrobatics checks to cross an icy lake isn't particularly exciting - worst case scenario, the player falls over and makes an ass out of himself. Best case scenario, he doesn't.
Requiring acrobatics checks to cross an icy lake while the party is getting strafed by a white dragon, however... That has potential.
...Well, until the party gets reliable Flight and sidesteps the problem entirely.
Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.
Enough of this arrogant, self-righteous, pretentious,smug ,snide disingenuous bloviating. Its nothing but an insult to anyone that would dare disagree with the great and glorious YOU.
You do not know how other people you've never met play.
You do not know what goes on at our gaming tables.
You don't know us.
You are not a better gamer than us and you are certainly not the gods gift to gaming that you would have to be to look this far down your noses without even feeling the need to make an argument for your case.
The entire point, which has been expounded on, evidenced, demonstrated, shown and outright proved is that spells are better at skills job than the skills are.
There is nothing, NOTHING, in taking an optimal choice that prevents or even inhibits the characters from thinking, role playing, creativity or breathing life into their characters. They are two completely seperate arguments.
If your own position is so vacuous as to require conflating the two in order to have the merest appearance of a point its time to reconsider either your means of argumentation or better yet your position.
Pffff you wouldn't say that if you GM's right and had players who used skills well and had players who played rogues correctly*
*If you ask me how to mechanically play a rogue correctly, you are wrong and instead of responding I'll just call you a wrong/munchin/powergamer.
*strokes ego*
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Or, you know, you can have A 2ND WIZARD FILLINg THE "ROGUE" SLOT.
Rather than forcing the 1 wizard play 2 roles you have your "god" wizard doing his thing, and then you can have a Seeker Sorcerer with the Umbral Bloodline act as a scout. You can then have Ravingdork's Transmuter of sheer retardedness act as the tank and a Witch to cover curing. Hey! An all full arcane casting party
I have like 20 traps in a small dungeon...more than that in a large one.
That wizard is going through a lot of scrolls and other things trying to be a rogue.
Also, if they create an alarm...every door is going to be locked, much less the chests and drawers.
This looks like a thing of a caster with over 60 spells....
Gonna stink when they have to fight the enemies as well and except for a few higher level spells, the wizard turns out to be absolutely worthless compared to my fully prepped NPC sorcerer...
But, to each their own...
1) Intentionally trying to screw with your party makes you a bad DM.
2) Seeker sorcerer can disable magical traps. and anyone can pick a lock...
3) only 1 sorcerer is playing rogue. And it has been shown time and again, that a Seeker sorcerer can top a rogue at the "trap guy" thing. If you are Crossblooded Shadow/Sage Seeker things get even more ridiculous since you now have just as many skill points as a rogue. So again, short of you trying to create a contrived and ridiculous scenario, the sorcerer wins.
That's not screwing with the party at all, that's called old school adventuers and dungeons. Hey, even if you play one that's light on traps, let's say the Baldurs Gate series (which DO let you sleep basically anywhere...so not as serious) you'll see a TON of traps in just about every dungeon.
It's called, giving the rogue something to do...plus...if they're easy and cheap, what evil bad guy isn't going to put traps and locks everywhere. Heck, go to an office building and see how many doors have locks on them...and if it has security, see how many security cameras and other items they have to stop people from breaking in...
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@GreyWolfLord
There are a few issues with your post, let's see if we can spot them all.I have like 20 traps in a small dungeon...more than that in a large one.Not sure if you're aware of this, but traps award XP as if they were encounters. Let's say the party is four PCs of level 5 on the medium advancement track, and are facing 20 lvl 5 traps. Each trap disabled or avoided awards the party 1600XP, or 400 xp apiece. So each time your party goes through a small dungeon, avoiding all the enemies (and fun combat) and wait around while the rogue takes 10 on a perception check and rolls a disable device check, they gain 8000 XP each. The difference between level 5 and level 6 is, whadya know, 8000 XP. So your party just leveled up by going through a single small dungeon, and having no meaningful interaction with anything except disabling traps. You better give them some treasure soon though, since they're now 22k behind the expected WBL.
That wizard is going through a lot of scrolls and other things trying to be a rogue.The typical wizard (or sage sorcerer, for that matter) will not be using scrolls to disable traps. That said, this thread is not about replacing rogues with other classes - there is a cornucopia somewhere churning out those threads already, no point to turn this thread into one as well.
Also, if they create an alarm...every door is going to be locked, much less the chests and drawers.
Gonna stink when they have to fight the enemies as well and except for a few higher level spells, the wizard turns out to be absolutely worthless compared to my fully prepped NPC sorcerer...
Awesome! Finally something the fighter can do instead of waiting around while the rogue rolls 40 skill checks. As a bonus, killing level-appropriate mobs has a decent chance of giving them treasure.
This looks like a thing of a caster with over 60 spells....Clearly, math is hard....
This is the difference between playstyles. In older modules and dungeons, there used to be a LOT of traps.
Now, in regards to treasure, that's the reason there are a LOT of traps and a LOT of locked doors.
Just because it doesn't cater to the Magic-Users only rule supreme adage (and really, it doesn't destroy that adage, it just is a type of playstyle focused in a different direction) does not make old school gaming and dungeons any less valid of a playstyle...
Of course, in most of those you want to avoid the traps, avoid the villains, and avoid the bad guys as almost always you'll end up facing someone that's like CR+12 over your level if you decide to try to kill everything in the dungeon (avoidance and running away are good ways to stay alive in Gygax's dungeons...at least some of them he tossed at players).
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the issue with putting that many traps in the dungeon to protect the treasure, is the fact, that the trapsmith effectively denied themself access to their own wealth, and most trapsmiths won't design a trap they can't personally bypass or remember to bypass. it's the same reason people with lotsa accounts make passwords that they can easily remember. because like routinely entering those passwords, the trapsmith is going to routinely encounter those traps.
including more traps than the trapsmith can handle, equals a dead trapsmith whom won't get to use his protected treasure.
and really, if the treasure is known to exist, i am sure there would be the corpses of prior adventurers seeking that treasure to serve as a warning sign that there happens to be a trap in the area.
so really, you don't need a rogue to find or bypass the trap, because there will generally be the corpse of some adventurer whom tried to bypass it, serving as a warning to where it is in terms of general location.
If your Diplomacy and Bluff skills are high enough, then you don't need combat abilities (Just talk your way out of fights)
If your Acrobatics is high enough, you can Parkour through dungeons and tumble through combat while ignoring difficult terrain and obstacles.
Don't forget to apply skill synergy boosts.
i.e. While haggling with a merchant, you roll your sense motive vs. his diplomacy to try to talk him down on a price. You get an additional +1 on your roll for every 5 points of Appraise you posses.
Profession: Brewer could give you a synergy boost when appraising a bottle of wine or maybe when trying to make a magic elixir
Craft: Carpentry could give a synergy boost when using the Survival skill to make a shelter.
What are theses "skill synergies" you speak of?
If you're doing with magic what you could be doing with spells, your wizard is a wasteful idiot that will eventually end up in a situation where he will have wasted all his magic trying to prove that the rogue is obsolete, and won't have the necessary magic to prove that the wizard himself is actually needed as anything other than a limited use rogue-wannabe.Skills are as useless as the GM makes them.
If the game centers around Nuke the Orc, then yes skill are pretty worthless at high level.
On the other hand if the Gm try to make the players think, runs villains that can plot ahead and are smart then skills become far more important.People keep saying this, but I would love to see concrete examples that magic isn't the answer.
Btw, I mostly GM, and I try to make skills relevant, but it gets hard. Except for knowledges, those stay relevant for a long time.
How about a concrete example, like I requested? Exactly what skills does the rogue (or whoever, this isn't really a rogue thread) bring that make the saving spells useful for the wizard? Especially in the mid to high level range, say level 9 and up?
I'm not anti-skills. I'm looking for ways to keep them relevant, beyond knowledges, perception, spellcraft, and UMD.
Let me give this a shot. I'm going to try and avoid just using attrition. Please note I have way more experience with Divine Casting, so I will admit I may be selling Wizard magic short at a few points. The main thing with skills vs prepared casting is magic will win out when it has time to be prepared and deployed. So to make skills relevant, you really just need need to deprive someone of that.
Acrobatics: I think the potential to avoid AoEs may justify this one alone, considering how many circumstances prevent 5 foot stepping. Other ways to make it work include things like having the ground suddenly split beneath the party and require an acrobatics check to avoid being knocked prone, take damage, or what have you.
Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate: Honestly, I don't really feel like these should require examples. Trying to magic your way through social interactions can be problematic on all sorts of levels. If you try to Charm Person someone and they make their save, or have allies which can see you and you may or may not be able to see, then people may not be too happy that you are invading minds. Now you just turned a bunch of potential allies into hostiles. Too bad, their leader was planning to tell you where all that magical loot was. You also never really know when one of these checks will come in handy.
Climb: Admittedly, this seems to be a bit of a dead end, but a DM can make it matter. See: My characters gets knocked down really long stairs and needs a climb check to stop falling. Or the wind makes it harder to fly than climb, or you get swallowed by a giant monster and have to muscle your way up it's esophagus.
Disguise: Admittedly this one is hard. One thing springs to mind though. A lot of spells have limited durations. If you need to move around a city you are wanted in freely for a long period of time, a Disguise might be more efficient than an Alter Self.
Escape Artist: I struggle to come up with a circumstance for this that don't involve just straight up depriving someone of magic. Liberating Command makes that hard. If everyone is getting grappled though the Wizard probably only prepared so many, and if he lost his ability to verbalize he is screwed.
Fly: I don't feel I need to justify this since most Wizard strategies to bypass skills involve flying. You want skill ranks here to not get knocked out of the air.
Handle Animal: If you are summoning monsters, do you really want to have to burn another spell slot just to get a little extra utility from them once the combat is over?
Linguistics: This skills is honestly just broken and should be revised. But here's an example: You're suddenly surrounded by a savage tribe that hates magic. They will cut you and your party down if you so much as try a Cantrip, much less a Tongues spell. They can be talked down but don't speak Common.
Perform: I dunno, I never bothered to research Bards, but I think they can do stuff with this?
Ride: All this really needs to be useful is a mount that is exceptionally badass to outdo high level magic-- maybe let the PCs ride dragons for a Starfox style midair shenanigans.
Sense Motive: I think this is up there with Bluff and Diplomacy. Really useful to have on in any non-combat interaction.
Stealth: While I can't think of any situation that calls for this skill that wouldn't benefit from Invisibility, or a few other spells, one should point out there's no reason you can't use both. Spells and skills stack here, unlike situations where Climb and Wings are mutually exclusive. There are still ways to alert people to your presence when Invisible, and a good DM will utilize those if a player uses Invisibility as a crutch. Frankly, if you need to cast Invisibility, there's a good chance you already HAD to make a Stealth check to not get noticed before or during the spell's casting.
Survival: Frankly, I don't think I know enough about Divination and this skill to give you a good example. I'm not sure what spells replace it so I can't really come up with a scenario where they don't apply. But I imagine it could still come down to stuff like tracking someone who is fleeing from you, which might let you take 10 rounds or more to cast a Divination.
Sleight of Hand: Again, not sure if any spells can really take the place of this.
What are theses "skill synergies" you speak of?Getting a bonus on diplomacy because you have knowledge (nobility). They were in 3.5. They are not in Pathfinder.
I have to say, they were a pain in the ass practically speaking, but I did like them and I do kind of miss them.
Let me give this a shot. I'm going to try and avoid just using attrition. Please note I have way more experience with Divine Casting, so I will admit I may be selling Wizard magic short at a few points. The main thing with skills vs prepared casting is magic will win out when it has time to be prepared and deployed. So to make skills relevant, you really just need need to deprive someone of that.Climb: Admittedly, this seems to be a bit of a dead end, but a DM can make it matter. See: My characters gets knocked down really long stairs and needs a climb check to stop falling. Or the wind makes it harder to fly than climb, or you get swallowed by a giant monster and have to muscle your way up it's esophagus.
Disguise: Admittedly this one is hard. One thing springs to mind though. A lot of spells have limited durations. If you need to move around a city you are wanted in freely for a long period of time, a Disguise might be more efficient than an Alter Self.
Escape Artist: I struggle to come up with a circumstance for this that don't involve just straight up depriving someone of magic. Liberating Command makes that hard. If everyone is getting grappled though the Wizard probably only prepared so many, and if he lost his ability to verbalize he is screwed.
Handle Animal: If you are summoning monsters, do you really want to have to burn another spell slot just to get a little extra utility from them once the combat is over?
Linguistics: This skills is honestly just broken and should be revised. But here's an example: You're suddenly surrounded by a savage tribe that hates magic. They will cut you and your party down if you so much as try a Cantrip, much less a Tongues spell. They can be talked down but don't speak Common.
Perform: I dunno, I never bothered to research Bards, but I think they can do stuff with this?
Stealth: While I can't think of any situation that calls for this skill that wouldn't benefit from Invisibility, or a few other spells, one should point out there's no reason you can't use both. Spells and skills stack here, unlike situations where Climb and Wings are mutually exclusive. There are still ways to alert people to your presence when Invisible, and a good DM will utilize those if a player uses Invisibility as a crutch. Frankly, if you need to cast Invisibility, there's a good chance you already HAD to make a Stealth check to not get noticed before or during the spell's casting.
Survival: Frankly, I don't think I know enough about Divination and this skill to give you a good example. I'm not sure what spells replace it so I can't really come up with a scenario where they don't apply. But I imagine it could still come down to stuff like tracking someone who is fleeing from you, which might let you take 10 rounds or more to cast a Divination.
Sleight of Hand: Again, not sure if any spells can really take the place of this.
Excellent, thank you. I think this is the sort of thing that gives us real points of discussion.
I will say that I think the social skills are pretty useful, and I forgot to include them.
I think most of the physical movement skills are what get to be useless, or at least pretty weak. I do think you had some good uses for Acrobatics though.
Ride is hard to get to work, but I have been looking into it for a Sohei I'm planning to build, and you can make it work. It requires access to more powerful mounts, like you said. A combat trained Roc is only 11k though, and if you get him a belt of the weasel (and he can wear it, not sure about that), he can come with in some pretty small spaces. Or you could get something a bit smaller like a Behemoth Hippo and do the same.
Or, you could get your party caster to make you a nice simulacrum to ride. Or be the caster and ride one.
Not really sure how Sleight of Hand retains any usefulness. Picking pockets is generally a low level thing, and any hiding weapons on you is better accomplished with magic at mid to high, since you won't need Quick Draw to get them out quickly.
Acrobatics: I think the potential to avoid AoEs may justify this one alone, considering how many circumstances prevent 5 foot stepping. Other ways to make it work include things like having the ground suddenly split beneath the party and require an acrobatics check to avoid being knocked prone, take damage, or what have you.
the one problem with avoiding AoOs is that with the way CMDs scale, it's hard to keep your acrobatics high enough to actually succeed past the low levels, unless you invest feats or items into pumping it up.
...
Let me give this a shot. I'm going to try and avoid just using attrition. Please note I have way more experience with Divine Casting, so I will admit I may be selling Wizard magic short at a few points. The main thing with skills vs prepared casting is magic will win out when it has time to be prepared and deployed. So to make skills relevant, you really just need need to deprive someone of that.Climb: Admittedly, this seems to be a bit of a dead end, but a DM can make it matter. See: My characters gets knocked down really long stairs and needs a climb check to stop falling. Or the wind makes it harder to fly than climb, or you get swallowed by a giant monster and have to muscle your way up it's esophagus.
Disguise: Admittedly this one is hard. One thing springs to mind though. A lot of spells have limited durations. If you need to move around a city you are wanted in freely for a long period of time, a Disguise might be more efficient than an Alter Self.
Escape Artist: I struggle to come up with a circumstance for this that don't involve just straight up depriving someone of magic. Liberating Command makes that hard. If everyone is getting grappled though the Wizard probably only prepared so many, and if he lost his ability to verbalize he is screwed.
Handle Animal: If you are summoning monsters, do you really want to have to burn another spell slot just to get a little extra utility from them once the combat is over?
Linguistics: This skills is honestly just broken and should be revised. But here's an example: You're suddenly surrounded by a savage tribe that hates magic. They will cut you and your party down if you so much as try a Cantrip, much less a Tongues spell. They can be talked down but don't speak Common.
Perform: I dunno, I never bothered to research Bards, but I think they can do stuff with this?
Stealth: While I can't think of any situation that calls for this skill that wouldn't benefit from Invisibility, or a few other spells, one should
The problem that the physical skills run into, outside of spells making them obsolete, is that they usually only work for the character using it. I can Diplomacy on behalf of the entire party but probably can't Swim for all of them-- though I can Climb and tie a rope at the top to make it easier for them. But where most of the skills really only need one character to be good at it, physical skill checks are kinda lame unless every party member has ranks.
And I would not underestimate Sleight of Hand. For pick pocketing, picture this. Your party has infiltrate a party being thrown by a local duke. The Duke's guards are all the place, and you can't fight your way out-- at least not without significant civilian casualties which your party isn't cool with. You need to lift something off the Duke or another guest. The above scenario gives you ample opportunities for Sleight of Hand, as well as Diploms and Bluff.
A less contrived scenario: You overhear the Paladin NPC mention that he is sworn to cut down anyone who bears the Mark of Ashai. That same mark is on the magical +3 amulet you jacked off the Ashai Lich you just defeated. The amulet hangs around your neck. Time for a Sleight of Hand check to stash that thing out of sight, yo.
The second scenario is actually a really good demonstration of where Skills trump magic-- a sudden thing you need to accomplish quickly and without warning.
EDIT: A few ways to make physical skills relevant without requiring everyone in the party to invest. Let your Barbarian make a Climb check to jump onto a giant's back, climb to it's shoulders and drive his sword into the things skull. Create opportunities for Rogues to pull off similar stunts with Acrobatics.
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This has nothing to do with anything but I just had the funny thought that Captain Morgan, in Pathfinder, must be the most badass human to have ever lived.
He recreationally drinks rum, which is hands down the most dangerous substance known to man in Golarion.
He must be feared across the seven seas, I tell you what.
This has nothing to do with anything but I just had the funny thought that Captain Morgan, in Pathfinder, must be the most badass human to have ever lived.
He recreationally drinks rum, which is hands down the most dangerous substance known to man in Golarion.
He must be feared across the seven seas, I tell you what.
Well, yeah. You don't even want to know what my Fort Save looks like.
Well, yeah. You don't even want to know what my Fort Save looks like.This has nothing to do with anything but I just had the funny thought that Captain Morgan, in Pathfinder, must be the most badass human to have ever lived.
He recreationally drinks rum, which is hands down the most dangerous substance known to man in Golarion.
He must be feared across the seven seas, I tell you what.
let me try to analyze it
+12 Base
+15 for 40 Constitution
+2 Hardy
+2 Steel Soul
+1 Glory of Old
+5 Cape of Resistance
+1 Ioun Stone
+1 Fortunes Favor
+2 Great Fortitude
+41 Fortitude Save?
One other thing to add: Spells are problematic in a context where you have prepared casters with unlimited access to their spell lists. Skills are still pretty valuable for a tier 2 caster who can't know every spell. They are even more useful if your DM places restrictions on magic items.
Skills really can be made useful given the right DM.
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Well, yeah. You don't even want to know what my Fort Save looks like.This has nothing to do with anything but I just had the funny thought that Captain Morgan, in Pathfinder, must be the most badass human to have ever lived.
He recreationally drinks rum, which is hands down the most dangerous substance known to man in Golarion.
He must be feared across the seven seas, I tell you what.
let me try to analyze it
+12 Base
+15 for 40 Constitution
+2 Hardy
+2 Steel Soul
+1 Glory of Old
+5 Cape of Resistance
+1 Ioun Stone
+1 Fortunes Favor
+2 Great Fortitude+41 Fortitude Save?
I'm insulted that you think it's only in the double digits.
Acrobatics: I think the potential to avoid AoEs may justify this one alone, considering how many circumstances prevent 5 foot stepping. Other ways to make it work include things like having the ground suddenly split beneath the party and require an acrobatics check to avoid being knocked prone, take damage, or what have you.the one problem with avoiding AoOs is that with the way CMDs scale, it's hard to keep your acrobatics high enough to actually succeed past the low levels, unless you invest feats or items into pumping it up.
While I certainly agree at higher levels most the bestiary is nearing impossibly high cmd, do remember your still probably fighting a fair number of levelled humanoids, if thats not the bulk.of encounters. The cmd to tumble past them is nearly always going to be in the realm of reasonable. Even levelled.undead and similar creatures may not be out of reach.
Well, yeah. You don't even want to know what my Fort Save looks like.This has nothing to do with anything but I just had the funny thought that Captain Morgan, in Pathfinder, must be the most badass human to have ever lived.
He recreationally drinks rum, which is hands down the most dangerous substance known to man in Golarion.
He must be feared across the seven seas, I tell you what.
let me try to analyze it
+12 Base
+15 for 40 Constitution
+2 Hardy
+2 Steel Soul
+1 Glory of Old
+5 Cape of Resistance
+1 Ioun Stone
+1 Fortunes Favor
+2 Great Fortitude+41 Fortitude Save?
Fort save schmort save Rum does Con damage with NO SAVE.
I'm insulted that you think it's only in the double digits.Well, yeah. You don't even want to know what my Fort Save looks like.This has nothing to do with anything but I just had the funny thought that Captain Morgan, in Pathfinder, must be the most badass human to have ever lived.
He recreationally drinks rum, which is hands down the most dangerous substance known to man in Golarion.
He must be feared across the seven seas, I tell you what.
let me try to analyze it
+12 Base
+15 for 40 Constitution
+2 Hardy
+2 Steel Soul
+1 Glory of Old
+5 Cape of Resistance
+1 Ioun Stone
+1 Fortunes Favor
+2 Great Fortitude+41 Fortitude Save?
darn it, i forgot the mythic tiers, or 50 Constitution for a fortitude of +46. there are still +65 worth of bonuses i have forgotten at the very least.
Fort save schmort save Rum does Con damage with NO SAVE.Well, yeah. You don't even want to know what my Fort Save looks like.This has nothing to do with anything but I just had the funny thought that Captain Morgan, in Pathfinder, must be the most badass human to have ever lived.
He recreationally drinks rum, which is hands down the most dangerous substance known to man in Golarion.
He must be feared across the seven seas, I tell you what.
let me try to analyze it
+12 Base
+15 for 40 Constitution
+2 Hardy
+2 Steel Soul
+1 Glory of Old
+5 Cape of Resistance
+1 Ioun Stone
+1 Fortunes Favor
+2 Great Fortitude+41 Fortitude Save?
then he must be immune to poison then.
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...@GreyWolfLord
There are a few issues with your post, let's see if we can spot them all.I have like 20 traps in a small dungeon...more than that in a large one.Not sure if you're aware of this, but traps award XP as if they were encounters. Let's say the party is four PCs of level 5 on the medium advancement track, and are facing 20 lvl 5 traps. Each trap disabled or avoided awards the party 1600XP, or 400 xp apiece. So each time your party goes through a small dungeon, avoiding all the enemies (and fun combat) and wait around while the rogue takes 10 on a perception check and rolls a disable device check, they gain 8000 XP each. The difference between level 5 and level 6 is, whadya know, 8000 XP. So your party just leveled up by going through a single small dungeon, and having no meaningful interaction with anything except disabling traps. You better give them some treasure soon though, since they're now 22k behind the expected WBL.
That wizard is going through a lot of scrolls and other things trying to be a rogue.The typical wizard (or sage sorcerer, for that matter) will not be using scrolls to disable traps. That said, this thread is not about replacing rogues with other classes - there is a cornucopia somewhere churning out those threads already, no point to turn this thread into one as well.
Also, if they create an alarm...every door is going to be locked, much less the chests and drawers.
Gonna stink when they have to fight the enemies as well and except for a few higher level spells, the wizard turns out to be absolutely worthless compared to my fully prepped NPC sorcerer...
Awesome! Finally something the fighter can do instead of waiting around while the rogue rolls 40 skill checks. As a bonus, killing level-appropriate mobs has a decent chance of giving them treasure.
This looks like a thing of a caster with over 60 spells....
In my experience, traps/puzzles can be awesome, it was a real shortcoming of the newer additions to relegate them to mere "hit point taxes for doing X", further it actively discourages exploration. I have been trying to make multi-layered several things happen traps that do more than simply give the rogue busy work. Admittedly it has varying degrees of success, some are a hit, some are still boring; it's a work in progress, but I haven't hit my stride yet.
I just really wanted to say that your style doesn't sound boring at all, I hope to make my dungeons a lot better trapped, and sadly, PF didn't give us much to work with.
They do make great skill encounters though, especially interactive ones that are working and need shutting off; flooding room, falling floors, greased slides; all are high-octane action traps that encourage players to have ranks in stuff like acrobatics, climb, swim etcetera.
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Some of the best ones come from real life, occasionally. I scrying trap that if you trip alerts the boss and allows them to keep an eye on you (like modern day cameras).
Alarms that go off on doors or tripping them up. Pressure sensitive floors, also for alarms...or better, releasing green slime on everything below...
Cage traps, basically trapping you for a short while till the hordes of archers (security guards) come to pepper you.
Modern day office buildings have these things (though differently phrased, with cameras, lockdowns, alarms, laser and pressure sensitivities, and such) in droves (like several security cameras on every floor on every hallway so you can't go anywhere without being seen)...so in a world of magic there's no reason they wouldn't have similar security measures.
And that's just office buildings.
In places they WANT to keep secure, it gets far more serious...
Of course, I love teleport traps. Not something you find in modern day security...but a trap that basically teleports those who set it off to some far off distant place (or maybe not so distant...just dangerous) is a fav. of mine.
Ok, I'll try.
Acrobatics: Largely undone by spells for MANY classes. If you get overland flight, you should almost never need acrobatics past that point. Still will become largely trivial because most characters will have some was to have minute/level flight, BUT you may have to make a check before you have the opportunity to activate the boots, so they are likely to still come up rarely, for some characters. They also help avoid AOO's still.
Appraise: As far as I know there is no magic to bypass the use of this skill. I use the crap out of appraise for jewels, gemstones and art. They fail they get a bogus price. I once had a party sell a 50k piece of art for 8k because they botched the appraise check. Ultimate campaign added more rules for appraise making it useful. If there is magic to match this skill, please let me know because I am ignorant to it.
Bluff: Feinting in combat. Outside of combat it also lets you lie...I tend to think this is better than a lot of magic as a failed casting may result in very bad things, and even succeeding on casting may. I mean, charm the king in an audience with two of his court wizards. You hit the king but the wizards know anyway, its just not good. Also, sometimes casting may automatically initiate combat, another time you need social skills. The bad thing here is a spell cast by an opponent can make this skill near worthless.
Climb: ehhh, not much justifying here. You need a little at the beginning usually. The mantra of put one point and forget it pretty much holds true.
Craft: Making stuff is good, only really relevant for alchemy as far as I can tell though.
Diplomacy: See Bluff and a repeatable, longer knowledge (local). Also, ultimate campaign added bargaining, which uses diplomacy. Very strong choice if those rules are used.
Disable Device: I say its always useful. As a GM, I usually have little traps/doors in a dungeon or a ton. A caster would be hard pressed to keep up with all of them in a trap dungeon. I know people mention magic items quite often, but that's going to eat your WBL pretty bad going through 5k gold wands and such, if the spell is even good enough to bypass it.
Disguise: I think disguise is absolutely necessary if you want to disguise...BUT it has to be augmented by magic. Magic or mundane alone is mostly terrible at this and anyone with any perception will likely see through it. The skills worthless in most campaigns though anyway.
Escape Artist: I was never a big fan, but I have gotten so much value out of this with my arcane trickster its insane. If your a dex character and you can max this its actually a pretty useful skill, if not its not worth very much, maybe a point to synergize with liberating command. Still magic eliminates this skill, if you can use it at the right time.
Fly: Air hazards are common enough if your flying you need this skill.
Handle Animal: Its needed by classes with animal companions, I can't think of anyway around that. It has some rare/random uses, but training things may be cool. I haven't explored it much outside of animal companions.
Heal: Magic eclipses this skill, though I always allow the 3rd party torture rules in too. Still, not that good.
Intimidate: See Bluff, also adds shaken. Many ways to use this as a swift or free action to shaken someone. A decent debuff, but certainly can be done with magic too.
Knowledge's (identify ones): I don't think anyone argues the usefulness of these.
Knowledge's (other): totally a GM/player thing. If players ask the right questions, and the GM is clever enough these can get good mileage, but probably still eclipsed by low level divination.
Linguistics: I don't think this skill gets enough cred. Languages are important for summoning. I just HATE burning a round casting a third level spell so I can tell my summon to cast a certain spell. If for nothing else, this is my money skill for anyone summoning creatures, at least until I have them all. Additionally, I have seen linguistics checks in PFS and AP's that magic couldn't solve, so it was use this skill, or entirely miss the clue. It seems this is legit as it has come up in both of Paizo's PF flagships, so I see no reason a GM can't occasionally throw in something even tongues or comprehend languages fails to read.
Perception: No one argues the usefulness of this skill, live it and love it.
Perform: It has a lot of good RP value, but outside of bards no real practical value.
Profession: Sucks, nearly every profession can be over ridden by low level spells.
Ride: If your a ride build I can't think of any magic that makes this skill futile.
Sense Motive: I'm iffy on this. There is tons of different magic that makes this obsolete, but once again, you can't just always cast when you need to without making the encounter...awkward and potentially even deadly. I'd say the face should probably have it, unless they have some way to activate detect lie type spells without anyone noticing(like an inquisitor).
Sleight of Hand: ehhh, its only useful for certain builds anyway, and many uses carry more risk than their worth. I get good value with my arcane trickster (stealing with mage hands from 30 feet in a market while I'm stealthed and invisible), but magic can probably manage most its uses better and with less risk.
Spellcraft: Needed and useful
Stealth: I think stealth is great if you can use it well, but I believe its like disguise where it works best augmented by magic, and magic works best augmented by stealth. I don't know if anyone noticed, but past level 5-6 a +20 to stealth isn't going to cut it in a lot of situations, so they really need to rely on each other.
Survival: Pretty sure magic can completely invalidate everything this skill does, sadly as I like survival in concept.
Swim: Magic trumps hands down. One point at the beginning then forget it.
UMD: Hey this gives you magic to invalidate skills, put your points here.
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What are theses "skill synergies" you speak of?
Getting a bonus on diplomacy because you have knowledge (nobility). They were in 3.5. They are not in Pathfinder.
They aren't as necessary in PF, since the changes to the skill rules means that
there are less skills to spread your points around,
'once a class skill, always a class skill' (not just for the duration of this level-up),
cross-class skills no longer cost double,
and they are no longer capped at [(level+3)/2] ranks.
Sometimes the synergy boost was seen as a form of point-whoring, because it was an official rule, some players were thought to be artificially inflating the level cap ceiling on their maxed skills, by claiming the bonus in contexts that maybe weren't appropriate.
Having said that, I'm happy to throw a bone to the jack-of-all-trades characters, who have spread their skill ranks in an organic fashion, by allowing alternate skills to be used, if I or the player can make the case for it, and/or to allow a successful roll on a related skill to provide a one-off bonus to the current check.
In effect, Aid Other, on oneself.
Eg, the PCs need to intercept Bishop Bigsley, but he is not in his townhouse, or the cathedral, so going there would waste valuable time.
The written scenario states a Knowledge(religion) check would remind them what religious duties he is likely to perform on this particular day.
Since Bishop Bigsley, in addition to being a churchman, is also a member of the peerage, I would also allow a Knowledge(nobility) check to reveal similar information (maybe with a different flavour, to reflect the different filter this information flowed through).
If a PC had both Knowledge(religion) and Knowledge(nobility), I would allow a (easier DC) check on one, to give a bonus to the other.
"Oh, hey guys, it's the state opening of Parliament today. He'll be there, blessing all the lords and ladies."
"And his mitre is primed to explode,....in five minutes!"
Mister Two-Skills saves the PCs a wasted journey, so they can get there in time, and try a diplomatic entry, rather than be forced to D-Door in at the last second, wrestle the bishop, and kick his hat out the window.
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What are theses "skill synergies" you speak of?
I have to say, they were a pain in the ass practically speaking, but I did like them and I do kind of miss them.
Yes, they were a pain, especially since some of them were situational, like only getting a bonus to use/identify scrolls, so you couldn't add it as a permanent bonus to your skill, but had to have a note to yourself.
Also, I think it works better when it's at the GM's discretion.
Far easier for the rule to be optional, and appear generous, than for it to be carved in stone, and appear miserly, when you have to tell someone that the savage orc chief is not remotely impressed that you can recite twenty generations of Taldan geneology.
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I do think some scenarios are overly-restrictive in what skill they demand, to the point of bringing adventures to a crashing halt. I can see why the writer may do it (to reward skill use), but often, even the most skill-rank-loaded PC may not have the one specific solution, and then gets grief for it ("I thought you were the skills-guy?).
There should be more than one way to skin a cat; try Heal, Knowledge (nature) or Survival.
Maybe not at the same DC, but at least it rewards the PC who put something into one of those rarely-used skills.
I believe this was the intent of the skill challenge advice in 4E; don't get pedantic about the PCs having a specific skill, let them use whatever sounds reasonable, to keep the game moving. Though, depending on the skill used, the game may move in a slightly different direction than expected...
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I do think some scenarios are overly-restrictive in what skill they demand, to the point of bringing adventures to a crashing halt. I can see why the writer may do it (to reward skill use), but often, even the most skill-rank-loaded PC may not have the one specific solution, and then gets grief for it ("I thought you were the skills-guy?).
There should be more than one way to skin a cat; try Heal, Knowledge (nature) or Survival.
Maybe not at the same DC, but at least it rewards the PC who put something into one of those rarely-used skills.
I couldn't agree with you more. I see this come up in PFS all the time and find it highly restrictive. Depending on the GM they may give, but more RAW GM's won't.
"Give me a knowledge (engineering) check.""Can I use my Profession (mason) skill instead."
"Scenario says Knowledge (Engineering) only, sorry."
Oh, I hate that. I always allow alternate skill uses. Typically at a +5 DC if it's not the right skill, but still. I want people to take skills that make sense for their character.
So if someone really maxed on one skill they could do everything with it. Say profession: animal husbandry?
I still allow for failure at certain things if they don't have the skill: "what is that?" "anyone have knowledge (planes)?" "no", "you have no clue"; I may be wrong but it makes them wish to god they had that skill, and not giving out info they didn't have a right to know can add to the game in terms of continuity.
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So if someone really maxed on one skill they could do everything with it. Say profession: animal husbandry?
Only if the GM is a pushover.
This was used as an argument loads of times vs the skill challenge idea, but I think many of the people doing so would have condemned WotC if they'd brokered world peace, and farted rainbows and gold.
Being overly strict and pedantic, regarding accepting one, and only one, solution to any scenario obstacle, has the opposite effect than you'd think.
Instead of encouraging players to take skilled classes, it discourages them.
The player sacrificed the ability to be a full caster, decided to play a rogue or ranger, because they were told that skills were where the game was at. Spread their skill points as far as they would go, to cover as many bases as possible.
And then they're told it's all been for nothing. "No, your ranks in Craft(stone) are worthless, only Knowledge(architecture) counts."
"Even though I earned those ranks, carving buildings, setting foundations, positioning keystones, and aligning turrets?"
"Yes"
"Why did I bother? Retire this character, I'll play something else."
So if someone really maxed on one skill they could do everything with it. Say profession: animal husbandry?Only if the GM is a pushover.
This was used as an argument loads of times vs the skill challenge idea, but I think many of the people doing so would have condemned WotC if they'd brokered world peace, and farted rainbows and gold.
Being overly strict and pedantic, regarding accepting one, and only one, solution to any scenario obstacle, has the opposite effect than you'd think.
Instead of encouraging players to take skilled classes, it discourages them.
The player sacrificed the ability to be a full caster, decided to play a rogue or ranger, because they were told that skills were where the game was at. Spread their skill points as far as they would go, to cover as many bases as possible.
And then they're told it's all been for nothing. "No, your ranks in Craft(stone) are worthless, only Knowledge(architecture) counts."
"Even though I earned those ranks, carving buildings, setting foundations, positioning keystones, and aligning turrets?"
"Yes"
"Why did I bother? Retire this character, I'll play something else."
Maybe you are right, admittedly I don't know if players feel cheated by mot having the right skills to find something out; but I also believe that the opposite is true in that when you just give out all of the info of a mystery to players because they have just any old skill it cheapens the mystery. I mean can you believe that stone-mason in Sandpoint figured out the mysteries of Thassilon because they used obscure stones from the Storval mountains?
@fictionfan: Wow, strawman much?
I don't think anyone said "I allow any skill to be used for any skill test". Just "I don't require only one skill to be used for tests where it would make sense to allow others".
Example: I would allow Profession: Mason to be used for many but not all Knowledge: Architecture checks, but increase the DC by 5. I would not allow Perception, or more ludicrous skills like Profession: Shepherd.
Some APs require skill checks like Knowledge: Geography, when sensibly Knowledge: Local for the region should at least give you a chance at it. That's what I'm talking about.
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As far as using a Wizard to perform a Rogue job goes.
beside taking up a spell slot as mention before.
Most Spells have a VERBAL component.. Which means the bad guys will have a chance to hear you casting said spell unless you have taken silent casting feat.
And Detect magic is one of the easiest defenses to set up. Far easier then it is to detect a Rogue sneaking in. So going through some area with spells up is going to be like going through a metal detector wearing plate armour.
As far as using a Wizard to perform a Rogue job goes.
beside taking up a spell slot as mention before.
Most Spells have a VERBAL component.. Which means the bad guys will have a chance to hear you casting said spell unless you have taken silent casting feat.
And Detect magic is one of the easiest defenses to set up. Far easier then it is to detect a Rogue sneaking in. So going through some area with spells up is going to be like going through a metal detector wearing plate armour.
It takes a few rounds to do anything, and only if they are focusing.
Additionally, if you are building a wizard to take over as a rogue:
1) Wayang Spellhunter to decrease meta-magic cost
2) Magical Lineage to always silence a favorite spell.
3) Veiled Illusionist can tell someone to screw off easy.
4) Arcanist loves metamagic.
As far as using a Wizard to perform a Rogue job goes.
beside taking up a spell slot as mention before.
Most Spells have a VERBAL component.. Which means the bad guys will have a chance to hear you casting said spell unless you have taken silent casting feat.
And Detect magic is one of the easiest defenses to set up. Far easier then it is to detect a Rogue sneaking in. So going through some area with spells up is going to be like going through a metal detector wearing plate armour.
Truth. I actually had a situation recently where the party was trying to infiltrate a mercenary camp at night, and they wanted to have the bard charm the guards, but because it had a verbal component they needed to make some sort of sound that would be loud enough to cover it up but not unusual enough to put them on high alert.
I think the "spells surpass skill ranks" argument doesn't hold a whole lot of water when you consider that generally, most parties will have only 1 wizard, which is really the only class capable of replacing ALL of the skills with spells, as sorcerers don't get to choose enough of them to make that huge a dent unless they're devoting themselves to "replacing the rogue" in which case there are others things they can't do.